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#1 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Standard gear for both (T'Challa does have the vibranium suit); takes place in NYC, they do not start visible; T'Challa is aware that something is off about Spidey but doesn't know what.

#2 Posted by deadpoolspidey877 (113 posts) - - Show Bio

im gonna give it to superior because i assume otto knows nmore about panther than panther knows about him being spider man, which is why otto could be more confident in his attacks

#3 Edited by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know Black Panther's limits right now. It is confirmed from Jonathan Hickman that King of the dead Black Panther is now Superhuman and no longer peak like Steve.

I think there was 4 other Black Panthers, so he now has their strength and experience all combined. He might be 4 times stronger than when he was BP.

#4 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

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#5 Posted by dondave (37459 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther ftw

#6 Posted by jashro44 (21839 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hard to say. I don't know what black panther has for an offense right now as standard gear. He is confirmed to be super human but honestly I don't think it changes a lot for now. The teporter makes the webbing useless since he can simply just teleport out of being incapacitated. All though the vibranium suit can been torn apart by slashing along the grain by Otto claws. I think I will give it to black panther for now since Otto is not listening to his body and if black panther decides to teleport in combat I think Otto needs to trust spider-sense to win this. Given more time though when Otto gets a bit more experience I think my opinion might change.

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#7 Posted by ColonelRunAway (370 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa just barely has the technological advantage, while Otto barely has the physical advantage.

I'll lean towards the Panther because he's more experienced in his own body, but it's a close call.

#8 Posted by Ddecourt (803 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa wins.

#9 Posted by Rockafella220 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

it seems like BP powers are upgraded every time i read a thread about him..... he reminds me of an anime character who gets a massive boost in energy over the course of the show.

#10 Posted by darktiger (4581 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Black Panther ftw

#11 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

He sounds like a real badass now !

#12 Posted by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

Yeah, each Black Panther can lift at least 1 ton. If Jonathan Hickman wasn't exaggerating in those sentences when he said he will have all the strength and knowledge of the BPs combined, he'd be at least 5 to 10 tons or more.

#13 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Due to the unknown limits of T'Challa's physical prowess now, for purposes of this thread he will be at his peak physical level prior to becoming King of Necropolis, so let's say heart-shaped herb levels.

#14 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: He's always been a badass.

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#15 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-man, supiour strength and speed

#16 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

New, amped up BP, ftw.

#17 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot:

Black Panther: The Boss

#18 Posted by TheSwordsman (1954 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther. More experience and a much, much, better fighter. And, assuming he has his energy daggers and that Ock is inexperienced with spideys body and spider-sense, Black Panther should be able to take him down with those as well.

#19 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@jeanroygrant: He's always been a badass.

That's true.

#20 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@Buckshot:

Black Panther: The Boss

Who is he talking to in that scan? Doctor Strange?

#21 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant:namor

#22 Posted by Gritterr (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Namor. its a scan from New Avengers #2

#23 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jeanroygrant:namor

Oh, yeah because of the whole attack on Wakanda in AVX. Black Panther looks like a total badass in that outfit, but I want to see how the battle between him, and Namor go. Namor is going to probably lose, to show off Panther's new powers.

#24 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gritterr said:

@jeanroygrant: Namor. its a scan from New Avengers #2

Okay, thnaks for the info !

#25 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Knowing Black Panther he is going to have giant deep fryer ready to turn Namor into fish sticks once he's done butchering him ;D

#26 Posted by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

#27 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jeanroygrant: Knowing Black Panther he is going to have giant deep fryer ready to turn Namor into fish sticks once he's done butchering him ;D

Hahaha.

@SlimJ87D said:

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

I agree.

#28 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

I don't. Namor is my home-boy.

#29 Edited by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

I don't. Namor is my home-boy.

Well you know Namor will be brought back to life anyways. If he doesn't die, I hope Black Panther humilates him. Namor doesn't even look like he's sorry for what happen. I don't even know if he has apologized to anyone. But knowing Marvel, Namor will do something to square even with BP.

#30 Posted by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to take this a little off topic but does anyone recommend me reading the new spiderman?

#31 Posted by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@e3zombie: I thought it would go into a new interesting direction but the first issue was a letdown for me. I think it's because the ending. I wasn't expecting something like that to happen so early in the series but bam, issue 1! The most typical thing.

Peter is still alive spiritually somehow in his mind.
#32 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@ToO_RaW said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

I don't. Namor is my home-boy.

Well you know Namor will be brought back to life anyways. If he doesn't die, I hope Black Panther humilates him. Namor doesn't even look like he's sorry for what happen. I don't even know if he has apologized to anyone. But knowing Marvel, Namor will do something to square even with BP.

I think it's incredibly hypocritical for the powers that be to hold any of the "Phoenix Five" accountable to the extent that they are. They were possessed by the Phoenix Force pure and simple ... and this due to Tony Stark's tampering. Then, while endeavoring to do good, they were further antagonized and driven by repeated attacks by Captain America and his crew. It's like if you know the psyche of your friend is fragile at best, yet for the moment, he's at peace and doing good by his friends and family. You know he has a darker side ... and instead of nurturing, supporting what is good, you start antagonizing him, poking and prodding until he lashes out. Then you turn around and say "I knew it! I told you so! You're a time bomb waiting to happen!"

Well "duh", you should know, you're the one who set the timer.

Namor is arrogant by nature. The Phoenix Force obviously accentuated and enhanced his weaknesses ... exploiting them to wreak havoc as is its wont. I think we are all romanticizing the idea of "vengeance' and the tired old "eye for an eye" ideology just a little too much. It's a slippery slope. No one wins. Every one loses.

I think Black Panther needs to wake up and realize Namor is not accountable for his actions while they were not entirely under his control. That and Namor would wipe the floor with Panther. Namor too has a kingdom and all the "resources" of Atlantis are his to command. Smart move T'Challa. Start a war with Atlantis. Just what your people need.

#33 Edited by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: But you act like they didn't want the power. They did, and they wanted it to force mutants to come back again. I think we read the story totally differently. Both sides wanted to do something with the power, the WHOLE point was that Scott and some of the X-MEN wanted to use it while Iron Man and the others wanted to try and prevent what happened.

They were possessed yes but it was their desires that were brought out and fueled the events that happened. This is a not a real example, but if their desire was just to leave the planet and recreate mars so that mutants could live there in solitude you think those events would happen? Further more I remember it was Scott who was the one that attacked Captain America first, and even though CA was unwelcomed, attacking first really showed how aggressively Scott wanted the Phoenix force more than CA, the authors did that for a reason also because it foreshadowed what happened and what was going to happen. Speaking of Scott.

I would agree with all you said until I read what Scott said. He said somewhere along the lines that he'd do it all over again if he had to and it was worth Xavier dying so mutants could come back. Namor upon meeting BP again since the incident didn't even bother to apologize like I said. He's a proud arrogant bastard but him not apologizing is just as bad as Scott for saying what he did.

So on Black Panthers reaction on seeing Namor and if he deserves some form of vengeance, we can agree to disagree. Yes my comment about "killing Namor" wasn't meant to provoke violence, it was just in the heat of the moment. But I hope Black Panther does get his chance to humiliate Namor and have him apologize or recognize that even though he was possessed it was his desires that were played out and by fighting for the Phoenix force makes him equally as guilty.

#34 Posted by dondave (37459 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Buckshot said:

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

Yeah, each Black Panther can lift at least 1 ton. If Jonathan Hickman wasn't exaggerating in those sentences when he said he will have all the strength and knowledge of the BPs combined, he'd be at least 5 to 10 tons or more.

If what your saying is correct it's more than 5 tons, there were 8 black panther's shown on panel and some blocked by the goddess and black panther

#35 Posted by Shawnbaby (10774 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Super_SoldierXII: But you act like they didn't want the power. They did, and they wanted it to force mutants to come back again. I think we read the story totally differently. Both sides wanted to do something with the power, the WHOLE point was that Scott and some of the X-MEN wanted to use it while Iron Man and the others wanted to try and prevent what happened.

They were possessed yes but it was their desires that were brought out and fueled the events that happened. This is a not a real example, but if their desire was just to leave the planet and recreate mars so that mutants could live there in solitude you think those events would happen? Further more I remember it was Scott who was the one that attacked Captain America first, and even though CA was unwelcomed, attacking first really showed how aggressively Scott wanted the Phoenix force more than CA, the authors did that for a reason also because it foreshadowed what happened and what was going to happen. Speaking of Scott.

I would agree with all you said until I read what Scott said. He said somewhere along the lines that he'd do it all over again if he had to and it was worth Xavier dying so mutants could come back. Namor upon meeting BP again since the incident didn't even bother to apologize like I said. He's a proud arrogant bastard but him not apologizing is just as bad as Scott for saying what he did.

Out of everyone here you can argue for one side or the other, but Black Panther was the most innocent out of all of them. And out of all of them, surely didn't deserve what came to him and his people because he stayed neutral up until he saw which side had become corrupt.

So on Black Panthers reaction on seeing Namor and if he deserves some form of vengeance, we can agree to disagree.

This is all getting a little off-topic...but in Scott's Defense...he was trying to save his entire species from extinction. What you see as Aggression...I see as Desperation. The Avengers were standing in the way of what Scott knew would save his people (And, he was right...The Phoenix did save his people...if not in the way he expected). Also, Scott never intended to take the Phoenix for himself originally...He wanted Hope to have it. As for what Happened with the Phoenix Five...There is an old saying "Power Corrupts...and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".

As for Vengeance...well, Don't the Mutants have the same right to want to see Wanda's head on a Pike as much as T'Challa wants Namor's? Or the rest of the World wants Scott's? Why does Wanda get a free pass? She nearly brought a whole race to extinction because of her Daddy Issues. Because she wasn't completely in control of her faculties? Well...Neither were Scott or Namor.

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#36 Edited by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: Yeah, Wanda isn't innocent either, but Namor killed people. I think Wanda just took powers away. I can't remember Children's Crusade that well but I think it was revealed that Doctor Doom said he could do something for Wanda but ended up giving her a power that corrupted her, the life force.

Yes, Scott wanted the phoenix to save his people, but the Dark Phoenix was what had everyone worried about. Yes you're right. This is getting a bit off topic so I will comment on it no more.

#37 Posted by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Buckshot said:

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

Yeah, each Black Panther can lift at least 1 ton. If Jonathan Hickman wasn't exaggerating in those sentences when he said he will have all the strength and knowledge of the BPs combined, he'd be at least 5 to 10 tons or more.

If what your saying is correct it's more than 5 tons, there were 8 black panther's shown on panel and some blocked by the goddess and black panther

This is back on topic and thanks for that scan. I'm not entirely sure but I guess there could be one more black panther there or there could be more off panel. Like to the far right you see a green robe around someone. And then the upper right you see a panther face starting up. Black Panther could be pretty damn strong. I heard he said something about "no more streets" meaning that they're trying to put him above a street leveler, not sure.

But by speculation, if he indeed is as strong as all of them combined he's strong as or stronger than Spider-man if it's his stats multiplied by the amount of Panthers present in this scan alone, that is 10 anthers counting the two on the right side you can barely see.

#38 Posted by God_Spawn (37898 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: And in by taking away powers, plenty of mutants were killed. Wanda is worse than Namor was by far.

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#39 Posted by jashro44 (21839 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Due to the unknown limits of T'Challa's physical prowess now, for purposes of this thread he will be at his peak physical level prior to becoming King of Necropolis, so let's say heart-shaped herb levels.

Does he have energy daggers and anti-metal claws instead of his current gear?

@spiderbuck said:

New, amped up BP, ftw.

We aren't using that version.

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#40 Posted by laflux (15979 posts) - - Show Bio

Vibranuim Armor? I'd go with Black Panther- though this may be due to my dislike for SpOck.

#41 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jeanroygrant:namor

Oh, yeah because of the whole attack on Wakanda in AVX. Black Panther looks like a total badass in that outfit, but I want to see how the battle between him, and Namor go. Namor is going to probably lose, to show off Panther's new powers.

QFT! I need feats!

#42 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@BringnIt said:

Due to the unknown limits of T'Challa's physical prowess now, for purposes of this thread he will be at his peak physical level prior to becoming King of Necropolis, so let's say heart-shaped herb levels.

Does he have energy daggers and anti-metal claws instead of his current gear?

@spiderbuck said:

New, amped up BP, ftw.

We aren't using that version.

Superior Spidey just beat the crap out of Wolverine (no claws but still) pretty easily. Gonna go with Superior Spidey for now.

#43 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with Black Panther since he is more skilled as a martial artist, more tactically adept, and has better tech.

#44 Posted by jashro44 (21839 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck:Thats true but wolverine did pin him down later in the same issue...I don't know who wins.

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#45 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 Yes, he does.

#46 Posted by dondave (37459 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther

#47 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@ToO_RaW said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I really hope Black Panther kills Namor or really gets even. I like Namor but I just can't help but feel BP deserves some justice.

I don't. Namor is my home-boy.

Well you know Namor will be brought back to life anyways. If he doesn't die, I hope Black Panther humilates him. Namor doesn't even look like he's sorry for what happen. I don't even know if he has apologized to anyone. But knowing Marvel, Namor will do something to square even with BP.

I think it's incredibly hypocritical for the powers that be to hold any of the "Phoenix Five" accountable to the extent that they are. They were possessed by the Phoenix Force pure and simple ... and this due to Tony Stark's tampering. Then, while endeavoring to do good, they were further antagonized and driven by repeated attacks by Captain America and his crew. It's like if you know the psyche of your friend is fragile at best, yet for the moment, he's at peace and doing good by his friends and family. You know he has a darker side ... and instead of nurturing, supporting what is good, you start antagonizing him, poking and prodding until he lashes out. Then you turn around and say "I knew it! I told you so! You're a time bomb waiting to happen!"

Well "duh", you should know, you're the one who set the timer.

Namor is arrogant by nature. The Phoenix Force obviously accentuated and enhanced his weaknesses ... exploiting them to wreak havoc as is its wont. I think we are all romanticizing the idea of "vengeance' and the tired old "eye for an eye" ideology just a little too much. It's a slippery slope. No one wins. Every one loses.

I think Black Panther needs to wake up and realize Namor is not accountable for his actions while they were not entirely under his control. That and Namor would wipe the floor with Panther. Namor too has a kingdom and all the "resources" of Atlantis are his to command. Smart move T'Challa. Start a war with Atlantis. Just what your people need.

I agree with you partially. Well, I agree with you totally in terms of Cyclops and partially as it applies to the others. I think Cyclops was prematurely and unfairly judged and vilified by the “good guys” of the Marvel Universe. At the start of the whole thing I had been of the mind that it was silly for the Avengers to take the whole Hope/Phoenix situation into their own hands. The Avengers are a minor part of the mutant world and for them to come in and attempt to handle the situation (how exactly? I was never really clear on what the plan was other than Wolverine’s version of it where he kills her) unasked is ridiculous. If they had attempted to work with the mutants, that could have been believed, but I don’t recall that being attempted. And when things kicked up and the Phoenix Force 5 were created, the Avengers kept their “we know best” attitude and proclaimed themselves the good guys. It’s that attitude, that they were right and any other viewpoint just had to be wrong that was the real problem. Their justification of their position was the previous Dark Phoenix, but it was flimsy. The 5 did nothing wrong by simply existing and what they did with their power was stuff that should have been going on all along. I know their attempts to fix the world skated over various political issues that would arise, but at least they were doing things. The non-mutant superheroes have had the ability to do more than just fight off super villains for years and they’ve had the positive press to actually put that power to use. It’s fairly common to hear the question “If Reed Richards is so smart, why doesn’t he use his technology to make the world better?” The 5 tried to address this and actually use their power for good. However, the Avengers were firmly of the opinion that no one should have that kind of power and it would go to their heads. And perhaps that’s true, but if so, what would be the best thing to do? I think it would be reasonable to attempt to work with them, and see if anything could be done to temper the effects of the Phoenix with the agreement of those wielding its power or at least channel it "more appropriately". It certainly doesn’t seem like the best way to deal with a group you think might go crazy would be to attack them at every possible opportunity. But that’s what the Avengers did. And wouldn’t you know it, the 5 started to go evil. Maybe it was inevitable, but maybe it didn’t need to be. More importantly though, even though the others were affected, Scott remained in control until the very end. Scott only snapped after all the others had been defeated (sending all the power at him) and the Avengers were still pressing the attack. He only turned after everyone, even his friends, had turned against him. The whole way through, Scott was only trying to help the world and every step of the way they accused him of villainy and said he’d endanger them all then attacked him to prevent it. I can’t really think of a better self-fulfilling prophecy (except for maybe Kid Loki’s tampering during the whole Serpent thing, but that’s another thing entirely). And of course Scott would do it all again. He didn't behave like Namor did. He didn't even sanction it. (The question comes up about the Limbo prison, but it was only for their attackers, and while I think it was a bad idea, I can't get to mad about it.) He murdered Charles and he let them imprison him for it, but of all the people to kill, Charles is the best choice. He's probably the character most willing to die for all mutants, and he did. I'm not in full agreement with Scott post AvX, but that's not really my point.

As I said though, I only partially agree your comment as it applies to the others, and my main reason for that is not solely that they cracked long before Cyclops, but more the seeming lack of remorse. Colossus seems to be the most remorseful, with Magick being as unrepentant as she's always been, Emma looking more bothered by the betrayal and problems with her powers than anything else, and Namor being downright smug. Cyclops being able to retain self control for as long as he did demonstrates that the characters weren't forced to act the way they did. It may have been easier for Namor to destroy Wakanda, but he still made that choice to go gather up an army and attack. Plus, the fact that it took Emma whispering in his ear to set it off only further tells me that he made a choice, since there was conscious thought involved, and that he wasn't simply overcome by emotion (which is something he would still need to be held accountable for to some degree, I mean, you aren't allowed to kill people because you have a quick temper). I think there's all sorts of blame to go around. The Avengers should have been supportive (even before the Phoenix Force dropped), the Force itself played a part, Emma shouldn't have gotten Namor started, and Namor himself should have made better choices or at the absolute least acknowledge at some point that his actions were wrong and do something about it.

As it applies to Black Panther, I don't think there's a thing at all wrong with him wanting Namor dead. Namor destroyed his nation and walks around like he's proud of it. Even if we assume that his actions were entirely the fault of the Phoenix Force (which I don't, as stated) and he doesn't carry a shred of responsibility, Namor hasn't acted like the crippling of a nation, carried out by him, is significant in the slightest (as far as I've seen, maybe I missed something). And he's not likely to if he hasn't already, and that's because it's Namor's personality. He destroys things and is unapologetic. That's how he's been for decades, that's how he acted when he had the Phoenix, and that's how he will continue to be. But just because that's your personality doesn't mean your actions are justifiable or excusable. If Doom randomly found himself tapping into a destructive cosmic force and he tried to take over the world, I don't think he'd be excused for it. His nature is one that skews him toward villainy so him being himself on a larger scale is still attributable, on some level, to him. Scarlet Witch is still on the road to redemption but it's understandable for Namor to sit there smirking just because he's already a jerk but he's sometimes on the side of the angels? Nah son. And in terms of a fight, Black Panther would ruin Namor. Sure in a fist fight Namor looks good (or at least he used to, we don't know what Black Panther is like now), but when has that ever been Black Panther's default? Shuri gave Namor a fight. SHURI. The only thing stopping the real Black Panther from murdering Namor is Marvel. And T'Challa doesn't need to start a war with Atlantis. T'Challa could make Namor disappear and never let the world know how it happened. I think he'd probably broadcast it seeing as it would make his nation feel better and let others know not to try and pull what Namor did, but if he decided he didn't want a war with Atlantis (which I don't think is a terrible idea once their star player is off the field, they are with out a leader, and wouldn't have the element of surprise on their side) he wouldn't have to. I don't think Black Panther's beef is with the nation anyway, just Namor.

Got a tad carried away maybe, so in sum, I'm kind of on board with your thoughts, but I'm kinda not, because Namor

And I'll add, not that it really matters but maybe it will provide a better view of where I come from, that the idea that Cyclops was made into a villain before he was one and that almost every player is at fault to some degree made the story more interesting to me than if one side was right and the other was wrong, and also that I really enjoy Namor as a character so my thoughts don't come from an angle of wanting to bash him or anything.

EDIT: I know I'm off topic, but I find this more interesting than a battle between and overused new version of a character which people don't even really differentiate from an almost-morals-off Spider-Man and Black Panther since I'm sure variations on this battle have been done numerous times.

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#48 Edited by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@dondave said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Buckshot said:

@SlimJ87D: There have been more than 4 other Panthers. As for other new Panther stuff, he displayed force fields, invisibility, teleportation, and one of his punches looked like it exploded the back out of his target.

Yeah, each Black Panther can lift at least 1 ton. If Jonathan Hickman wasn't exaggerating in those sentences when he said he will have all the strength and knowledge of the BPs combined, he'd be at least 5 to 10 tons or more.

If what your saying is correct it's more than 5 tons, there were 8 black panther's shown on panel and some blocked by the goddess and black panther

This is back on topic and thanks for that scan. I'm not entirely sure but I guess there could be one more black panther there or there could be more off panel. Like to the far right you see a green robe around someone. And then the upper right you see a panther face starting up. Black Panther could be pretty damn strong. I heard he said something about "no more streets" meaning that they're trying to put him above a street leveler, not sure.

But by speculation, if he indeed is as strong as all of them combined he's strong as or stronger than Spider-man if it's his stats multiplied by the amount of Panthers present in this scan alone, that is 10 anthers counting the two on the right side you can barely see.

If you use their gods and myths as a guide, or the fact that the necropolis is adorned with what look like ancient egyptian heiroglyphics (and symbols that predate egyptian writing), it would suggest that Black Panthers go back FAR beyond a dozen or so. T'Challa references his people going back before the burning of Rome (64 AD) and even the Immortals, and it seems like Fantastic Four 607 shows the first Black Panther being chosen in a story that takes place "millennia ago". There have been Panthers for a long time. In any case, while the "strength" could easily be literal, I don't think it necessarily is, and I wouldn't be surprised if "strength" and "knowledge" of every Panther that ever lived was something more than just an increase in how much T'Challa can bench. And I kind of hope he's not brick now. I don't mind him being stronger, but his physical strength isn't what I like about the character, and too much of it might change what I do like.

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#49 Posted by SlimJ87D (9938 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot: OMG dude, your really long post about AVX will take me some time to get to lol.

But yeah, I didn't read FF 607 and 608, but maybe they didn't mean literally then. Maybe they meant "knowledge is power" so all that knowledge and fighting ability he gained has made him stronger as a fighter. As for his strength, speed and durability I hope it's not a ridiculous upgrade because as you said there are definitely other things I liked about him other than his powers.

#50 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6360 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot:

As it applies to Black Panther, I don't think there's a thing at all wrong with him wanting Namor dead. Namor destroyed his nation and walks around like he's proud of it. Even if we assume that his actions were entirely the fault of the Phoenix Force (which I don't, as stated) and he doesn't carry a shred of responsibility, Namor hasn't acted like the crippling of a nation, carried out by him, is significant in the slightest (as far as I've seen, maybe I missed something). And he's not likely to if he hasn't already, and that's because it's Namor's personality. He destroys things and is unapologetic. That's how he's been for decades, that's how he acted when he had the Phoenix, and that's how he will continue to be. But just because that's your personality doesn't mean your actions are justifiable or excusable. If Doom randomly found himself tapping into a destructive cosmic force and he tried to take over the world, I don't think he'd be excused for it. His nature is one that skews him toward villainy so him being himself on a larger scale is still attributable, on some level, to him. Scarlet Witch is still on the road to redemption but it's understandable for Namor to sit there smirking just because he's already a jerk but he's sometimes on the side of the angels? Nah son. And in terms of a fight, Black Panther would ruin Namor. Sure in a fist fight Namor looks good (or at least he used to, we don't know what Black Panther is like now), but when has that ever been Black Panther's default? Shuri gave Namor a fight. SHURI. The only thing stopping the real Black Panther from murdering Namor is Marvel. And T'Challa doesn't need to start a war with Atlantis. T'Challa could make Namor disappear and never let the world know how it happened. I think he'd probably broadcast it seeing as it would make his nation feel better and let others know not to try and pull what Namor did, but if he decided he didn't want a war with Atlantis (which I don't think is a terrible idea once their star player is off the field, they are with out a leader, and wouldn't have the element of surprise on their side) he wouldn't have to. I don't think Black Panther's beef is with the nation anyway, just Namor.

Interesting points. This is the part we do disagree on though. First, I don't think we can say Scott should be treated any different than the others insofar as holding them responsible for their actions whilst controlled and driven by the Phoenix Force is concerned. The Phoenix Force took advantage of the darkness in each of the Five's 'souls' if you will. Namor's major fault of arrogance and self-righteousness led to a different brand of destruction. But they all ended up causing harm, and destroying in the end - and not entirely by their own volition.

As to your "Doom" comparison, in the end analysis, Namor, in full control of his faculties, would not have wrought such destruction down upon Wakanda just as Scott Summers would never have pursued a course leading to the murder of his father and mentor Charles Xavier. Doom is a completely different sort of creature. To assume otherwise for Namor would brand him guilty of horrendous war crimes just as it would brand Scott a murderer. One cannot condone the one and condemn the other IMHO. Just because Namor's personality came off less altruistic, less palatable, does not mean he was any more or less responsible for his actions in war mongering than Cyclops was in Xaviers murder and illegal political maneuverings. Scott still murdered, usurped nations and bent them to his will. Or, rather, Phoenix possessed Scott did.

Insofar as Namor's apparent lack of remorse ... what would it matter? Remorse is not part of Namor's emotional response repertoire to be sure. Namor probably also knows it doesn't mean anything if he's grovelling on his knees, begging for forgiveness, or acting like the ruler of a nation that he is. Panther would want his vengeance regardless. I actually respect Namor more by not trying to justify. Rulers don't 'justify' they act (actions speak louder than words and alla that). My main gripe rests in looking at BP's reactions from a mature, "real world" standpoint. While understandable, it's juvenile all the same ... and especially so for the ruler of a nation. Real leaders know that vengeance of this sort boils down to little more than adolescent self-indulgence. It's a violent temper tantrum is what it is. More so knowing the antagonist was acting out under the confines and influence of an alien, cosmic entity.

If killing Namor would somehow benefit his people in the end, I might be more on board. But not only would it not benefit, it would lead to more suffering. Killing Namor would bestow a modicum of self-satisfaction, however short lived, to T'Challa and little else. But in the real world, assassinating a nation's leader is a declaration of war, and would only lead to reopening hostilities between Atlantis and Wakanda. Not only that, it would reduce the noble Black Panther to a standing below that of Namor in the end ... as his actions were completely under his control, of his doing and choosing, and premeditated.

As to BP going all "black ops" using prep to get the deed done with no one the wiser ... sure ... maybe. But Namor 'disappearing' would lead to many questions in need of answers. The first place the finger would point, from the Avengers to the X-Men to the leaders of the free world and Atlantis would most assuredly be T'Challa. Wouldn't take the most powerful telepaths in the world to figure this one out.