Superboy Prime vs Plutonian

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: lastly, I'll put it this way abotu the picosecond thing.

There's two ways we can interpret it. It either recorded a whole battle and the whole battle happened in a picosecond. Or it took a picosecond for it to get to its destination. Either result shows that Plutonian is able to use his super speed to blitz faster than the DC heavy hitters.

The scan clearly says Battle Report was picosecond long. Also it says picosecond LONG, there is no leeway to interpret it as travelling in picosecond.

And Superman has also outraced circles around Omega beam, which is a light based attack, any reason to believe it is any slower than the transmission???

@Killemall said:

Here Superman acclerates faster than Darkseid's omega beam right away, and i see no reason to believe the transmission was any faster, do you?

Apkolopis Now

Gallery

Transmissions go at the speed of light, that's the way they work. They are electromagnetic waves of light. I don't know how or why Modous would downgrade technology to travel slower.

Yes and that shows he can travel at light speed, something Superman has come close to doing. Flying around at light speed. It still doesnt show his ability to fight, punch, kick at the same speed. The whole superman can fly but cant fight at light speed post addresses this part perfectly.

I don't think Omega Beam is as fast as light. Lobo have time to annoy Darkseid for about some seconds before the blast gets him.

@Killemall: "Before we agree to disagree again. What does this mean to you?

"For every moment I hold you down. For every blow you force me to land a star system dies."

I just want to see if this sentence is translated differently between the two of us.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: "Before we agree to disagree again. What does this mean to you?

"For every moment I hold you down. For every blow you force me to land a star system dies."

I just want to see if this sentence is translated differently between the two of us.

Put a little more context and it translates a little differently :)

Firstly the sentence before every star dies.

Then the star dying part

So what what does she claim.

1. She is drawing energy from distance stars, and her powers are gravity based.

2. then we have a star bright and then the star goes dim and thats it, it doesnt die, it doesnt blow up, it just doesnt glow, nor is there a difference in size.

Which indicates she is taking some of the gravitational energy away. You take 1/100 of the gravitation energy away from an average star, it will no longer have the power conduct the nuclear fission to produce energy.

Question was how do we know she was tapping into the whole power of the star and how is it any different from Magneto tapping into the magnetic powers of the jupitor and then getting beat up by Iron Man?

@AngryHulks said:

@Killemall said:

I don't think Omega Beam is as fast as light. Lobo have time to annoy Darkseid for about some seconds before the blast gets him.

Wouldnt that be a reaction speed for Lobo? I mean the guy has blitz the hell out of Superman twice.

@Killemall: To me, it is different. We see the star is not shinning anymore. All of it's nuclear heat energy is completely gone. It has gone cold. All that energy is used in a blow from Modous-Bette. And He-She specifically says that each one of those blows takes all the energy from the star.

Gravity is a type of energy, they never say how Bette's powers work exactly. But you see a star lose all of its heat energy and to me it clearly says each blow does so. If it was only 1/100, then why would He-She mention that every single blow caused that? Why wouldn't she just keep collecting all that energy from the same store 100 times if it really was just 1/100. Instead we see that each blow causes this, and each blow is a star and another star and another star meaning he-she had to use all that star up and move on to another one.

That's the way I interpret those scans. I haven't had a chance to research stars, astronomy wasn't my field of science and far from it in my major. Can you reference me some places to read on gravitation and how nuclear fision is affected by it? Thanks.

EDIT: As for for why the eastern seaboard doesn't explode from bette's power, well she's controlling her powers well I guess. What if she's making sure that %100 of it goes directly into Plutonian and none of the attack gets transferred out with some kind of Gravity field? I can't explain why the seaboard didn't get destroyed really. But I don't think either of us can besides I hate to say it but it's comics.

@SlimJ87D: We can agree to disagree here, but i have to be honest with you, this feat there are leeways and maybe what you are saying is true had there been a bio would have been awesome, but this i can totally accept. That would make him more durable than prime which is awesome, although he was totally bleeding and would have been knocked out had the battle continued.

Although Modeus actually explained her powers as gravity based.

And here is Qubit interepreting the power as gravity related.

So its reasonable to believe its gravity that she was attracting. Entire gravity of a star still is an awesome showing of power.

But hats off, i think your explanation was pretty awesome and does cover pretty much everything in this instance, i might re-read this explanation tomorrow you never know i might change my mind :p Today , atm too hooked up on the new spiderman series :)

@Killemall: Did you finish Volume 5 Captain America? That series was really written with the times that were currently in. Like the economy going bad due to a certain villain, etc.

But it's still good.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: Did you finish Volume 5 Captain America? That series was really written with the times that were currently in. Like the economy going bad due to a certain villain, etc.

But it's still good.

Oh i finished them all, Vol 5 and 6, Captain American and Bucky series and Winter Soldier 1 to 11. Now i have moved to J. Michael Straczynski run of Amazing Spiderman, i got distracted yesterday, thanks to (@Strider92:) for recommending me the series , in one day i read the whole Irredeemable and Incorruptible all 1 through 37 :p

Stalemate.

i don't think that plutonian can defeat regular supes...let alone sb-prime.

bump to cover spam!

@toptom said:

i don't think that plutonian can defeat regular supes...let alone sb-prime.

Pretty much everyone seem to be thinking Plutonian wins and not a lot of convincing argument though , so would you like case why Superboy Prime should win, or say if you can make a case for why Superman should win against Plutonian, and then by the same logic Superboy Prime would win?

Interested to give it a go? Most of Plutonian's feats are already up, apart from him physically sinking Singapore or in a fight with Surviver causing a massive earthquake.

plutonian has not demostred yet to be faster,stronger or even cleverer than superman. he has not demonstrated yet that he can use his reality manipulation in a fight.

people will put plutonian over supes just because he is a bloodlusted rip-off of him ( and because they don't know supes too much maybe). if superman used to fight as him,we would have different opinions for this battle.

pltoninan vs regular supes is a good match. plutonian vs a bloodlusted supes or sb-prime ( who is much stronger than his adult counterpart) is just a joke.

@Killemall: I'll take on the honors

I think the mistake being made here is that everyone keeps using Superman as a base for feats against Plutonian, when Superboy Prime has his own list of feats that can speak for him. Since people have repeatedly posted Plutonian's speed feats here, I'll let you use those as comparisons.

To take on Plutonian's speed feat, Here is Superboy Prime counter-blitzing 3 flashes all at ones, mid battle. It took all 5 flashes (3 who reach FTL speeds) to build enough speed trap him in the speed force: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/328472-realvsclone8_super.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3388/130559-speed_force_gone_super.jpg

A 2nd speed feat, more akin to Plutonian outracing the radio signal, Superboy Prime avoids Flash and flies out of Earth's atmosphere instantly. Proceeds to speedblitz 2 superman & fly instantly into deep space, too fast for them to catch up. Fast enough to break thru 300-mile wall of willpower ffrom 20 G-Lanterns: http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo45/aarons24/superman%20prime/aaloutbart.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/88906/1640163-scan0015_super.jpg

3rd speed feat, Bart followed Superboy Prime back to the main reaching before the Flash who used his Speedforce (Flash: #6, 2007). Superboy takes on magic punches from Black Adam (a superman rival) w/ no problem, and smacks him away: http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Saturn695/scan0021-1.jpg

4th speed feat, Superboy Prime races towards the planet Rann so fast, he can only be seen after they slow down the satellite video: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/697/125412-page000160pu_super.jpg

Strength feat to take on Pluto's sinking of Singapore, Superboy Prime proceeds to push the planet Rann at high speeds: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/697/125413-page000176ah_super.jpg

SA Superman w/ his nigh infinite strength personally vouches for Superboy's strength: http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo45/aarons24/superman%20prime/Crisis_10_14.jpg

To take on Plutonian's heat vision feat of burning his symbol into the Earth, here is a scan of Superboy Prime having burned his S symbol into the entire face of a planet, not to mention the circumference is also burning actively. Before that, he also burned the entire city of Smallville, and was going to going to sear another S into the Earth using Smallville, Fortress of Solitude as points: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60129/1129577-fc_legion_01_page_036_super.jpg

Even greater strength feat, Superboy pushes multiple planets around the cosmos like chess pieces to shift the center of the universe away from Oa. Read the bottom half of the scan: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/43469/1030991-planet_moving_super.jpg

Superboy smacks around Superman, Powergirl, and Kilowog + other lanterns simultaneously, survives attack from 2 guardians (who can crack a planet with a thought), proceeds to manhandle one of them: http://spider-bob.com/villains/dc/images/Superboy_Prime04.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/85439/2002810-green2.jpg

Flies thru antimatter core of Anti-Monitor unharmed, proceeds to throw him into outer space: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/771207-throwweakam2_super.jpg

Takes on entire green lantern corps, kills 32: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/odin-versus-superboy-prime-8252.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/85439/2002809-green.jpg

Hope this shows doubters what Plutonian has to compete with. Superboy isnt affected by magic or any reality warpers outside of his universe, as shown he beat and kidnapped Mr Mxzptlk who is a confirmed reality warper. This doesnt even include guardian-amped superboy who destroyed Earth by simply flying thru it, or surviving a universe-destroying blast

@inutetsaiga said:

@Killemall: I'll take on the honors

I think the mistake being made here is that everyone keeps using Superman as a base for feats against Plutonian, when Superboy Prime has his own list of feats that can speak for him. Since people have repeatedly posted Plutonian's speed feats here, I'll let you use those as comparisons.

To take on Plutonian's speed feat, Here is Superboy Prime counter-blitzing 3 flashes all at ones, mid battle. It took all 5 flashes (3 who reach FTL speeds) to build enough speed trap him in the speed force: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/328472-realvsclone8_super.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3388/130559-speed_force_gone_super.jpg

A 2nd speed feat, more akin to Plutonian outracing the radio signal, Superboy Prime avoids Flash and flies out of Earth's atmosphere instantly. Proceeds to speedblitz 2 superman & fly instantly into deep space, too fast for them to catch up. Fast enough to break thru 300-mile wall of willpower ffrom 20 G-Lanterns: http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo45/aarons24/superman%20prime/aaloutbart.jpg

3rd speed feat, Bart followed Superboy Prime back to the main reaching before the Flash who used his Speedforce (Flash: #6, 2007). Superboy takes on magic punches from Black Adam (a superman rival) w/ no problem, and smacks him away. http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Saturn695/scan0021-1.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/88906/1640163-scan0015_super.jpg

4th speed feat, Superboy Prime races towards the planet Rann so fast, he can only be seen after they slow down the satellite video: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/697/125412-page000160pu_super.jpg

Strength feat to take on Pluto's sinking of Singapore, Superboy Prime proceeds to push the planet Rann at high speeds: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/697/125413-page000176ah_super.jpg

SA Superman w/ his nigh infinite strength personally vouches for Superboy's strength: http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo45/aarons24/superman%20prime/Crisis_10_14.jpg

To take on Plutonian's heat vision feat of burning his symbol into the Earth, here is a scan of Superboy Prime having burned his S symbol into the entire face of a planet, not to mention the circumference is also burning actively. Before that, he also burned the entire city of Smallville, and was going to going to sear another S into the Earth using Smallville, Fortress of Solitude as points: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60129/1129577-fc_legion_01_page_036_super.jpg

Even greater strength feat, Superboy pushes multiple planets around the cosmos like chess pieces to shift the center of the universe away from Oa. Read the bottom half of the scan: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/43469/1030991-planet_moving_super.jpg

Superboy smacks around Superman, Powergirl, and Kilowog + other lanterns simultaneously, survives attack from 2 guardians (who can crack a planet with a thought), proceeds to manhandle one of them: http://spider-bob.com/villains/dc/images/Superboy_Prime04.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/85439/2002810-green2.jpg

Flies thru antimatter core of Anti-Monitor unharmed, proceeds to throw him into outer space: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/771207-throwweakam2_super.jpg

Takes on entire green lantern corps, kills 32: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/odin-versus-superboy-prime-8252.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/85439/2002809-green.jpg

Hope this shows doubters what Plutonian has to compete with. Superboy isnt affected by magic or any reality warpers outside of his universe, as shown he beat and kidnapped Mr Mxzptlk who is a confirmed reality warper. This doesnt even include guardian-amped superboy who destroyed Earth by simply flying thru it, or surviving a universe-destroying blast

1. Superboy-Prime was pushed into speed force. Not quite a speed feat. Superboy-Prime is not on the Flashes level. He has never outperformed Superman in speed and that is why his speed is comparable to the Flashes. Him trying to break free of the Flashes running him into the speed force is not a speed feat. It's not like he was running along side them.

2. SBP was attempting to try and fly at the speed of light. Plutonian outraced a radio signal that would have taken 1 picosecond to reach its destination from space, how much do you want to estimate he flew to the base? Half the circumfrence of the world? A quarter? Even if you say it's a quarter, that means he instantly flew at FTL a quarter of the planets circumference in a picosecond. In 1 second light travels around the earth 7.5 times.

He says it right there, at light speed, Now unlike Prime here, there is absolutely no evidence as to how long it took Prime to reach FTL. But with Plutonian, his movement was actually instantly and we can actually calculate how long it took him to achieve seeing that he only had 1 picosecond to race the transmission. On top of that the signal had a head start.

So I will explain again more clearly. What is the difference in Plutonian's speed feat and Prime's? Prime's is uncalculated, we do not know how long it took him to go FTL. For Plutonian, we know 2 factors and that is 1) Time: Pico Second and 2) Distance from space to somewhere on earth and as an added bonus 3) the signal had a clear head start.

3. How is that a speed feat?

4. Again, no indication as to how long it took him to reach FTL. Understand that the Super people do not instantly fly FTL, here a scan explains what happens when they fly.

How do we know this to be true? Because so far the Flashes are being that are capable of operating and existing in a time faster than FTL, and it's clear that Superboy-Prime is NOT on their level, specially when they operate at their highest speeds.

Superboy-Prime is not SA level, again there was a wide retcon. Otherwise Powergirl should have technically retained her SA Strength along with Earth 2 Superman. That being said, Plutonian is on a whole different level than Prime. He is not just a physical being like Prime. All Prime can do are physical attacks which can be phased through.

Plutonian gained this ability in the end of his story arch

So Prime can move planets, Plutonian takes hits where each hit again resulted in a star losing all of its energy. He took multiple one of these hits and was actually few a few minutes later.

And he was letting Betty/Modeus hit him because he was sexually confused about his feelings for Betty but Modeus gay feelings for him.

"Flies thru antimatter core of Anti-Monitor unharmed, proceeds to throw him into outer space: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/771207-throwweakam2_super.jpg

Takes on entire green lantern corps, kills 32: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/odin-versus-superboy-prime-8252.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/85439/2002809-green.jpg

Hope this shows doubters what Plutonian has to compete with. Superboy isnt affected by magic or any reality warpers outside of his universe, as shown he beat and kidnapped Mr Mxzptlk who is a confirmed reality warper. This doesnt even include guardian-amped superboy who destroyed Earth by simply flying thru it, or surviving a universe-destroying blast"

Anti-Monitor was fighting all the Guardians and was grenaded by a large energy source before Prime flew through him.

Prime had absorbed the energy of a Guardian. This is SuperMAN-Prime you are talking about...

We all know what Prime is, that was not the problem. The problem is the other way around. Not a lot of people actually know what the Plutonian is and that's the problem. If you have not read his series or don't know anything about his powers then try reading Page 2.

Truth be told, Superboy-Prime has only had one 1 on 1 fight that finished up and it was against Ion Sodam yat. The funny thing is that people never mention that Sodam yat was a new recruit, had little to no fight experience, barely learned how to use his Green Lantern ring (how is he suppose to know how to use the Ion powers?) and had NEVER ever been under the yellow sun and didn't understand those powers either. Almost the whole fight Yat was hardly even using his Ion powers because he didn't even know how, it's clear issues later when Kyle has to have a talk with him about it. Yat was pretty much using only his Daxamite powers and again it was for the first time he had ever bee under a yellow sun.

Then you have Prime getting bloodied by Bart Allan and Superboy. You have him getting knocked out by the Teen Titans. Then you try and compare that to Plutonian taking multiple hits that resulted in the death of several star. It doesn't add up. That's why Plutonian wins this fight. Besides being physically strong and physically fast, he can go intangible, take a hell of a beating and molecularity manipulates his opponents (unconsciously though). Prime here can only heat vision, ice breath and punch, but what else?

If you can Prove that Prime is much faster and can deliver dozens of star energized punches then I guess he wins. But proving that is the hard part.

@SlimJ87D: Sure, I can give you the first two, but as long as both beings are capable of FTL travel, there is a stalemate effect in terms of speed. Superman, Superboy, the Flashes, all can reach speeds FTL, be it instantly or eventually, but never do you see in comics where someone simply speedblitzes thru characters. If so, SUperman can simply speedblitz Doomsday, Darkseid, multiple times and end the fight. If we speak in terms of the instantaneous speed feat, than sure, Plutonian can instantly move at those speeds. Is it truly helping him in a fight with another FTL being? probably not, they'll still end up throwing mach punches at one another, then it'll come down to who hits harder.

Whether they retconned the overall SA status of the SA characters (obviously Earth 2 supes and powergirl were obviously not at SA levels), we know that Prime was taken out of that continuity (hence why he still retains planet moving strength & time travel ability that the current incarnations do not). We have an established base for his strength even if you want to count the inconsistency of his writers with regards to who makes him bleed/who doesnt. He can take hits that pack the power of a sun, does he dish those out as well? Superman still survived a supernova-like blast, post crisis, and since we want to make all Supermen alike here, its safe to assume Superboy can take the same (given he's more durable than Superman). Plutonian being fine after those hits? Superboy ends up recovering in the same issues, and no one has left him with any lasting injuries in any story.

I know of the MM scan with him phasing thru heat vision, and even if Plutonian is capable of the same, all that means is you dont get hit. He cant fight back either unless he becomes tangible, therefore is still exposed to Superboy's attacks all the same. He will have to take to take damage if he wants to doll it out.

Yes it is Superman Prime who captured Mxzptlk, but the comics made it clear so far that altering abilities such as Magic, and his own weakness have yet to hurt him. At the end of the day, we are going based off feats that Plutonian has shown in the comics, not what we believe he can do. His quantum entanglement doesnt mean he can blow up Superboy with his fingers, nor does it imply he can reality warp Superboy Prime into being KO'd like some ppl on the forums claim. We know Plutonian's abilities are externally driven rather than internal like how Superman is written, but they still seem to level out effect-wise, not including things like the element extraction, quantum entanglement etc, which we have yet to see used on a above-superman level being such as Prime.

And actually, thats exactly why I avoided using Sodam Yat's fight in the post, cause I know that trap everyone falls in regarding Sodam being Ion, yet forgetting that he literally gained his powers seconds before fighting with prime. So aside from being better in strength, I wouldnt throw Sodam's fight in as a reason to boost Prime, had he faced him with knowledge of his own abilities, we'd get to see firsthand how his reality/time manipulation moveset would've faired against prime. Prime suffers from inconsistencies with his written stories, which everyone at this point acknowledge, the Irredeemable series being fortunate for having a consistent writer. I wont say that he can deliver star energized punches, but then again, Bette Noir isnt throwing punches at Prime, Plutonian is (and if we go with what Bette can dish out/vs. how good of a punch she can take, thats another story). Im not saying Prime wont lose, but Im giving valid reasons why he wont be stomped/ can go both ways

@inutetsaiga said:

@SlimJ87D: Sure, I can give you the first two, but as long as both beings are capable of FTL travel, there is a stalemate effect in terms of speed. Superman, Superboy, the Flashes, all can reach speeds FTL, be it instantly or eventually, but never do you see in comics where someone simply speedblitzes thru characters. If so, SUperman can simply speedblitz Doomsday, Darkseid, multiple times and end the fight. If we speak in terms of the instantaneous speed feat, than sure, Plutonian can instantly move at those speeds. Is it truly helping him in a fight with another FTL being? probably not, they'll still end up throwing mach punches at one another, then it'll come down to who hits harder.

Whether they retconned the overall SA status of the SA characters (obviously Earth 2 supes and powergirl were obviously not at SA levels), we know that Prime was taken out of that continuity (hence why he still retains planet moving strength & time travel ability that the current incarnations do not). We have an established base for his strength even if you want to count the inconsistency of his writers with regards to who makes him bleed/who doesnt. He can take hits that pack the power of a sun, does he dish those out as well? Superman still survived a supernova-like blast, post crisis, and since we want to make all Supermen alike here, its safe to assume Superboy can take the same (given he's more durable than Superman). Plutonian being fine after those hits? Superboy ends up recovering in the same issues, and no one has left him with any lasting injuries in any story.

I know of the MM scan with him phasing thru heat vision, and even if Plutonian is capable of the same, all that means is you dont get hit. He cant fight back either unless he becomes tangible, therefore is still exposed to Superboy's attacks all the same. He will have to take to take damage if he wants to doll it out.

Yes it is Superman Prime who captured Mxzptlk, but the comics made it clear so far that altering abilities such as Magic, and his own weakness have yet to hurt him. At the end of the day, we are going based off feats that Plutonian has shown in the comics, not what we believe he can do. His quantum entanglement doesnt mean he can blow up Superboy with his fingers, nor does it imply he can reality warp Superboy Prime into being KO'd like some ppl on the forums claim. We know Plutonian's abilities are externally driven rather than internal like how Superman is written, but they still seem to level out effect-wise, not including things like the element extraction, quantum entanglement etc, which we have yet to see used on a above-superman level being such as Prime.

And actually, thats exactly why I avoided using Sodam Yat's fight in the post, cause I know that trap everyone falls in regarding Sodam being Ion, yet forgetting that he literally gained his powers seconds before fighting with prime. So aside from being better in strength, I wouldnt throw Sodam's fight in as a reason to boost Prime, had he faced him with knowledge of his own abilities, we'd get to see firsthand how his reality/time manipulation moveset would've faired against prime. Prime suffers from inconsistencies with his written stories, which everyone at this point acknowledge, the Irredeemable series being fortunate for having a consistent writer. I wont say that he can deliver star energized punches, but then again, Bette Noir isnt throwing punches at Prime, Plutonian is (and if we go with what Bette can dish out/vs. how good of a punch she can take, thats another story). Im not saying Prime wont lose, but Im giving valid renot benefit asons why he wont be stomped/ can go both ways

Of course it helps if he can instantly move at FTL and SBP can't. How does that not benefit Plutonian? And speaking of who hits harder, F = ma, so if you're admitting that Tony can go faster much quicker he's going to land more harder punches everytime.

Yes, he has been retconned, if he was seriously SA level, then he would have easily one shotted Superboy and Superman when he punched them. Evidence that Prime takes hits that pack the power of a sun?

I don't understand why you are using SuperMAN-Primes feats here. And lets put what "other" people have said aside, because I didn't say them.

I understand your stance to defend Prime, but Prime is really REALLY good at what he can do. But he can't fight a fight like this where the other person is physically more durable, more faster reacting, can go intangible among other abilities. Prime either has to do better than what he can do right now or have some kind of other powers to counter Tony. Maybe if he has the Guardian energies which seemed to clearly amped him he could pull it off. But as a boy, probably not.

@SlimJ87D: Im not saying it wont benefit him, but as far as a FTL battle, I have yet to see either characters have a FTL battle throwing attacks, we know someone like Flash can do the infinite mass-punch, and technically any character going at FTL should pull it off, but comics would end with 1 page if they could. As for any evidence, I guess the only thing I can really use is the tower exploding that killed Superboy which Prime escaped. but thats not a feat

And even if he was SA level, the one-shotting characters doesnt happen, or we'd have no real fights with outmatched characters like Hulk vs. Spiderman, but thats besides the point.

I didnt use any more superman prime feats aside from my 1st argument, i was just acknowledging ur point that it was Man prime who captured him. The magic/weakness thing still applies to superboy.

In the end, Im not some rabid SBP fanboy, so my job is done, Plutonian is more likely in taking it. Indeed, if we use guardian amped prime, I think it'd be a great fight. I wouldnt completely throw SBP to the side though

@inutetsaiga: Fair enough.

@slimj87d: First,let us look what is star/earth

and she power feats:

Did you really think she has ENTIRE stats energy?Please answer

Two: her powers as gravity based.

gravity energy not ENTIRE STARS energy

she just take some gravity from the stars,so,not need 1/100,1/100000000 enough make will no longer have the power conduct the nuclear fission to produce energy.

you problem is ：Why wouldn't she just keep collecting all that energy from the same store 100 times if it really was just 1/100.

let me tell you,why?why she need a lot of stars?because when she take 1/100000000000000 gravity that would be make the stars no more nuclear fission to produce energy,if stars stop nuclear fission to produce energy.,the stars would be no energy/shine,so that why she need Collection of gravity from each stars,doesnt mean she has ENTIRE star of gravity

my a friend tell me:

The reason the radiant sun is nuclear fusion heat production, the reason of nuclear fusion is the center of the sun causes high temperature, the center of the sun is the sun at high temperature compression process of birth, dynamic compression leads to gravitational energy released as heat, if take all gravity reduction will lead to what? Radiation pressure is greater than the gravitational damage structure will lead to the rapid expansion of the stars, stars are the center of nuclear fusion blow. Results the gravity reduction is the sun like a bomb blew up, nothing left out, not so simple. not only doesnt glow,

so,star blow up?no,Another fact in panel,she each blow even not destroy a city,if she use all of the gravity,she each blow would be destroy earth with easily

all in all：read this

@powerwoman:

I can't really understand what you are typing due to grammar. I just see numbers being thrown out.

1/100,1/100000000, 1/100000000000000

What facts do you have to share with these numbers of yours? What proves it?

The only thing I remember in school is that a star's gravity is 2 times that of its internal thermal energy and according to the virial theorem half of that is used to keep itself together and the other half is radiated outward. This half of that gravitational energy roughly equals to half of the thermal energy which is containing the star.

If needed I will investigate further, honestly I didn't have time to read and prove anything. The simple statement and showing of the artist and writer has it that a entire star system dies for every single punch she throws.

From what I understand, you're trying to say that there is a minimum amount of gravity that is required to keep the star burning, and if that gravity disappeared then it would stop shining. But a variable that remains is that you don't know how much gravitational energy she stole as again a star has double the amount of gravitational energy compared to its internal thermal energy.

@slimj87d: sorry.my first ID just 5 posts

she cant draw all of the gravity,look my point,if she draw all of the gravity from the stars,the stars not just doesnt glow,it will be like a bomb blew up, There is a simple fact

look my scan

if she really draw a star all of the energy,she each hit would be destroy billion of billion the earth,However, this is not happening.

why i say 1/100,1/100000000, 1/100000000000000?

My view is based on the basis of the facts

1,if she draw a stars all of the gravity,this stars would be like bomb blow up

but it's not

2,a variable that remains is that you don't know how much gravitational energy,yes,i dont know,but first,she not draw all of the gravity,so,she drax how much from the stars?enough make the star doesnt glow,but take how much gravity would be make the stars doesnt glow?i still dont know,

but,let us Face the fact：

this the sun/earth size

this she feats:

Destroy a building

if she draw gravity of the stars 1/100,she still can easily destroy the earth,but she not,even not a city buster,that only one explain.she just draw very small from the gravity of the star

so,Based on her feat，i can save says she just use 1/10000000000000000000000000 of the star of the gravity

another simple fact,gravity not ENTIRE star all of the energy,she power just gravity wells,not other,even we are hypothesis she draw star all of the gravity,that still not ENTIRE star energy

Without getting technical, Plutonian in earlier issues have been beaten to near submission by far less amount of force. It seems that his durability fluctuate as earlier his body bears the weight of the half of solar system and he was killed in the end from fighting the gravitational force of a neutron star.

@angryhulks: not half os solar system,he just half of black hole,that was a Can not be quantified feat，because we dont know this size of the black hole

@powerwoman123: Finally someone sees Plutonian exactly the way i do :) We have exactly identical argument so far.

It has been stated by his captor that there's the weight equals to the half of the solar system (about half of the Sun) putting on him. That's about 1 x 10^27 tons here's fighting.

However, in the last issue where he got killed by his own weight which reached the density equals to the neutron star. Assuming Plutonian weigh 100 kg, his density at the end of the issue should make him weigh as much as 2.9 x 10^10 tons for neutron star of two solar masses. That's like 34 quadrillion times less than what he take during his imprisonment. See the difference? His durability is inconsistent for some reason, and he have been strike down by lesser foes who is barely a country buster.

@angryhulks: can you really to prove this was half of the solar system?because i just see half of black hole,half of black hole this feats just cannot be quantified,we dont know size of the black hole,and I read his comic,his durablility not inconsistent,just regular low,also,i think half of the solar system just exaggerate,thor has better than this

weights dozens of planets:just exaggerate,unless can prove this weight was really

@powerwoman789: Score of planet is actually 20 planets not a dozens (12). That however takes place in Dark Dimension, which has more than 6 spatial dimension and hence gravity doesnt work properly. Thats why you dont have stars and galaxies in splinter realm and why Dormammu was energy being not physical.

@powerwoman123: I'm very busy at work this week and won't have a lot of time this whole week so I'll just settle this.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849903-irredeemable_21_008.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849904-irredeemable_21_009.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849905-irredeemable_21_018.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849906-irredeemable_21_019.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849907-irredeemable_21_023.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2849908-irredeemable_21_024.jpg

Tony walked around an area that had half the gravitational pull of a black hole. That is dozens of times more than the gravitational pull and orbital of our sun. Our sun is small, very very small compared to a star that creates a black hole. The Black Hole turned Borlax, someone that can split planets into a slushy. So mathematically, his durability is already off the charts here.

For you to say that "so,Based on her feat，i can save says she just use 1/10000000000000000000000000 of the star of the gravity" sounds like you're downplaying Plutonian. The proof is right above you. Your math doesn't add up with the math above.

Here is the fictional part, there is no "how much gravity has to be taken out to make star not glow" because mathematically for a star that size that has planets revolving around it to exist gravity and the pressure has to equal each other to keep the star there. For it to stop glowing is fictional as something like that wouldn't happen, it defies physics. So that's the fictional part we have to take into account. But if you were to write a physics equation, all thermal heat and gravitational energies would have to be taken out for absolutely nothing like in the scan to happen because if you just pulled out the gravity alone, there would be an in balance and the star would collapse. If you took a small amount like you are saying "1/10000000000000000000000000" the star would rebalance itself and continue to burn.

If you have some solid proof though, please share some facts with me like where are you getting your numbers from, how are you quantifying these things? I'm open to your reasoning but the math just doesn't add up for me to believe it.

Have a nice day.

@killemall: I do not believe so. The math doesn't add up or make sense.

@slimj87d: you dont need show these scan,i read this guy comics,i know all of him feats,the black hole feats was Can not be quantified,like thor break some neutron star,we dont know this black hole how bigger,size,it just half of the black hole,more hard to quantified it,so,i dont think this feats was Impressive,i read his comics,he regulardurable not Impressive

My view is based on the basis of the facts,yes,I never said this figure is accurate, read my point of view, in my opinion, considering her feat, she only draw a little power is reasonable.unless scan she destroy earth,planets.in the scan,she even not a city buster,she feats not impressive too

what is my fictional?please stop Trolling,i'm not fictional anything,if you dont belive me,just ask some astrophysicist，the reason of nuclear fusion is the center of the sun causes high temperature, the center of the sun is the sun at high temperature compression process of birth, dynamic compression leads to gravitational energy released as heat, if take all gravity reduction will lead to what? Radiation pressure is greater than the gravitational damage structure will lead to the rapid expansion of the stars, stars are the center of nuclear fusion blow. Results the gravity reduction is the sun like a bomb blew up, nothing left out

scan

sure,i was really no idea she draw how much,but

read scan

what is the star,what is the our earth?

you are busy?sure,i can waiting for you 1 years,but even so,you can do what?she ever hit even not destroy a city,she just a building bustersun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>earth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>city>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a building

@powerwoman147:

1. The gravitational pull was enough to turn someone strong enough to split a planet into a slushy.

2. Black holes ARE quantified: There is a minimum mass calculation for a Black Hole, and that is called a Micro black hole. Just stating it to be a Black Hole should mean the average sized Black Hole. I believe just disregarding it or saying it's hyperbole is an attempt to downplay Plutonian.

3. Plutonian easily walked around in the gravitation well, which by definition of a black hole which has enough gravitational pull that light can't even escape it. Half of that is a great durability feat, and half of that is much more than ""1/10000000000000000000000000" of a star.

Please, give me some reasoning behind your logic and some facts that back it up. That's all I'm asking for. So far your argument is that it's a hyperbole that there is a Black Hole holding Plutonian there, and that you "think" the number "1/10000000000000000000000000" is how much gravity is being used to hurt Plutonian.

@slimj87d: 1，too many unknow planet,star feats in the comic,superman can hold a small black hole,Drax pull a sun core(of course,this not strength feats,because the sun core just plasma）thor break neutron star and Gladiator destroy a unknow planet,all these feats was Cannot be quantified and unknown，read my point,I'm not say because this was unknow black hole that mean it would be weak,yes,he maybe powerful,maybe weak,maybe just strange things,but a simple fact：The writer does not tell us in the panel, the quality and accuracy of density.so,They can not be quantified,unless the writer tell us

2,no matter plutonian feats,i read his comics,he regulardurable not Impressive,cant put him in your point,My view is based on the basis of the facts,how me to hyperbole?eh?

tell me,who hyperbole?

she not draw all of the gravity, astrophysical perspective, or from the perspective of her feat,she not possess entire stars power

so,how many?read she feats,if you dont like my math,Considering your feelings,i'll stop it,so,how many?

well,enough destroy building,a small pit

@powerwoman147: Here is my own theory to support the point. She is actually channel the entire energy from the star, but she looses most of the energy during the channeling process, and a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that energy is what she uses against Plutonian. The only reason I'm not convinced that Plutonian can take the entire energy of several stars is because he have been severely beaten up far lesser force.

@angryhulks: cool,maybe you are right, Whatever the explanation,a bullding buster enough almost kill this guy

@powerwoman147: It's not that I don't like your math, there isn't any math. I don't get how you're coming up with 1/100000000000000000, you're just typing a number but there's no logic behind it.

Why there's hardly any collateral damage you ask? There could be plenty of explanations, it's fictional writing after all, Modeous could be focusing a field that contains all the energy on the Plutonian only, who knows. But if we're going to dive this far into "collateral damage to energy attacks" a lot of things wouldn't make sense with a lot of heroes and this is where it goes to far.

Without any math, proof or reasonable explanation I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Thanks anyways.

It's probably not a focusing attack as there're still collateral damage, clearly visible.

And as I mentioned earlier, most of the star's energy might be lose during the channeling.

Superboy Prime.

Plutonian

@angryhulks: There's still some collateral damage, but who knows what it's due to. It could be that Modeous doesn't have perfect control over his powers.

Either way, for this debate, Plutonian beats Prime, he has better reaction time beating a satellite radio to its destination after it was fired. Prime hasn't shown that kind of reaction time. He trades punches with the likes of Superman who hasn't done a on par feat.

I don't buy the explanation of why the black hole feat should be ignored, it sounded more like an accusation of hyperbole with no logical reasoning. Prime hasn't been shown to take that kind of durability. Plutonian was conveniently walking around while all the other powerful beings of his universe were turned into slush.

I don't think whatever user Powerwoman believes changes the outcome of this fight. Plutonian is faster, most likely more durable and has an array of powers that Prime lacks.

From what I see, Plutonian don't really have much punching feats, and not many of them are impressive anyway. Most of his impressive feats are from his durability, psionic powers, or his heat vision.

Black hole feat is one of the highest end feat, but in the end he was crushed by far lesser weigh than half of the solar mass he faced in the prison. In earlier issues, he often have problem with many heroes that is not overpowered, there again, he have a lot of fluctuation in his power for one writer.

SBP close fight.

@slimj87d: he not has better reaction time anyway,SBP was more powerful,far more poweful than him,one shotted kill him with easily,SBP strength enough move planet, Plutonian even not close to this level,black hole was nothing,superman done it,thor done it(who almost in to the black hole horizon）bill done it,i dont see these charater as durability as SBP,also,SBP took a Explosive enough to kill the entire universe all life，that far more impressive than plutonian

he no feats was impressive,a building enough kill him

also, he's regular durability not impressive

black hole feats was s not a valid feats,because we dont know this black hole size,mass,unless you scan write point on the panel,if you cant,sorry.this feats just like superman lift infinite pages,thor lift world tree,herc lift sky,can not be quantization

he's speed was nothing,because They only travel at the speed of light in a vacuum, when propogating through a medium they are slowed according to the permeability and permativity of the medium.

unless you can show me he's speed was light in the panel,if you cant,i dont care

We have only one fact

he speed:faster than electromagnetic waves

speed of light>electromagnetic waves on the earth

Plutonian>electromagnetic waves

he maybe faster than light,maybe as fast as light(because on the earth,electromagnetic waves not as fast as light)or maybe just more close to light speed,of course,he would be very close to light of speed,but This speed feat Can not be quantified,unless you scan a panel tell us how fast ,if you cant,this feats was Not impressive,Fraught with uncertainty，also,he's regular speed not impressive,faster than a bullet?eh....

@slimj87d: Powerwoman believes changes the outcome of this fight.

lol,not belive,this was a true,the plutonian was no match for SBP,even superman has better feats than him

superman has quantified speed,strength,durability feats,more and more impressive than plutonian,who body survivel planet explosion，sun explosion,move the earth with help,faster than light,far better than plutonian any feats,you dont need show me this guy scan,i read him comics,he no feats can put him on the superman level,he even not close

@powerwoman: The Black Hole feat is valid because they have been quantified, unlike the "infinity" book. How do you want to downplay it? By saying it's the smallest size black hole, which by the way there is an equation for? Compare to your other examples, there are quantities to black holes so stop saying it's hyperbole.

Your scan of Max Damage punching Tony Pre-Amp doesn't prove anything either because you're using a time where he was at his weakest in the series. At this point I think you're just trying to find any kind of reason to downplay Tony.

"We have only one fact

he speed:faster than electromagnetic waves

speed of light>electromagnetic waves on the earth

Plutonian>electromagnetic waves

he maybe faster than light,maybe a"

Here you are again, pulling math out and not having any kind of proof or logic. You're just trying to downplay Plutonian.

"James Clerk Maxwell first formally postulated electromagnetic waves. These were subsequently confirmed by Heinrich Hertz. Maxwell derived a wave form of the electric and magnetic equations, thus uncovering the wave-like nature of electric and magnetic fields, and their symmetry. Because the speed of EM waves predicted by the wave equation coincided with the measured speed of light, Maxwell concluded that light itself is an EM wave."

"Electromagnetic waves travel at c = 3.0×10⁸ m/s in a vacuum but slow down just a little when they pass through a medium (for example light going passing from air to glass) If an electromagnetic wave enters a medium the speed changes because the wave interacts with the atoms of the medium. This, in effect changes the permittivity and/or permeability. The amount the speed changes is given by the index of refraction n = c/v (In Earth's atmphsere it's still close to the speed of light having a low index number) where c is the speed of light and v is the speed in the medium."

And guess what, Electromagnetic waves AREN'T that much slower in the atmosphere, it's still VERY close to the speed of light. The fact is that the signal was sent BEFORE Plutonian reacted and he STILL beat it. That's the main point.

This can be quantified. If the signal had any millisecond headstart like it did, then it proves he's faster than light speed. It is definitely quantifiable, you just didn't do the work or think about it.

About picosecond report, I believe it was the length of the report or just its frequency. This is not necessary translated into Plutonian having faster-than-light perception speed as there's an instrumentation in real life that can measure the length of the event happening in attosecond. We have successfully measuring something happening in 12 attoseconds before, and Superman, while he is just under light speed in combat, he possessed ability to perceive something moving faster-than-light so that's nothing new, and consider that Superboy Prime is more powerful than regular Superman in every way.

Also, in early Plutonian issue, he may not really be traveling faster than radio signal. Given enough starting distance, 99.99% of light speed should be enough to reach point B before light could if the distance is short enough. Regular Superman have show similar feat as well when he escaped radiation pocket approaching him at speed of light, Superman got a head start so he's capable of staying away from it for while (given enough time it would catch up to him, but for a certain period, it's possible to escape). Not to mention that Plutonian notice the reporter announcing as soon as he pronounce the first syllable, giving him enough time to fly to the satellite, as sound signal have to be converted to electromagnetic waves. Also, the writer have wrong sense of science, air resistance and disturbance have negligible retardation effect on radio wave, and the writer treat it as it slow down the radio signal significantly. If that's how physics works in the Irredeemable universe, then maybe the light really slow down significantly.

@slimj87d: Refer to my post before this post, the writer might have different scientific understanding than us. Educated people all knew that air have negligible effect on electromagnetic wave, but the writer treat it like it slows down the radio signal significantly.

We can agree to disagree. But one thing we both can agree on is that you didn't prove anything. You tried to pull all this math and scientific knowledge but had nothing to back it up with besides you thinking that's how it works or it's hyperbole.