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#1 Edited by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

I checked cant find it so sorry if this has been done before.

Superboy Prime

Plutonian

Rules

  • This is Superboy Prime, not Superman Prime and no guardian amp.
  • Random encounter, in an indestructible planet.
  • Plutonain can and only use ability he has shown to use, lets not run wild on hypothesis on what he should be able to do given his heritage.
  • Win by any means necessary apart from BFR.
  • Standard Morals Apply (as in do what they have done in their career and not do something they have never done in a fight before)

Any arguments are welcome, anything with valid reasoning would be awesome though :)

#2 Posted by laflux (11019 posts) - - Show Bio

The anti SBP gene in me says Plutonian stomps, but I don't know enough about him to say conclusively. I still go with him since, I think he would do better against the Teen titans than SBP did.

#3 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

I think i'll go with the Plutonian on this one, his reality altering powers will come into play, and if he can't physically alter prime, he will alter things around him to give him an advantage

#4 Posted by Strider92 (15230 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think SBP could hit him as hard as Bette did and that didn't KO Tony. I'll go with Plutonian after a long and brutal battle.

#5 Posted by Lvenger (15948 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Nope this hasn't been done so you're OK!

#6 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

I think i'll go with the Plutonian on this one, his reality altering powers will come into play, and if he can't physically alter prime, he will alter things around him to give him an advantage

His reality altering powers?

The only person who though his powers were akin to reality altering was Modeus when his parents explained him about who he is they never mentioned anything about reality altering. Also to prevent the whole he is from a heritage of beings who have been said to be nearly omnipotent i specifically put the morals on clause to prevent such supposition.

I dont know, without it to me it looks pretty close. Neither have any sort of quantifiable reaction time but have appeared really fast, Superboy Prime has actually better strength feats so i would consider him stronger, Plutonian has more versatility and much like silver surfer doesnt use anything when he fights.

#7 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

I don't think SBP could hit him as hard as Bette did and that didn't KO Tony. I'll go with Plutonian after a long and brutal battle.

How hard did Bette hit him? she was jacked up on gravity powers and apparently was using graviatation powers from the stars to amp up her punch and we see stars blowing away everytime she punched him but stars loose stability if you take away even 1/10 of its gravity powers, albiet not in such small time but neither would taking entire power do so.

Also she was under Modeus control, who loves him to a point he was making sex toys of him, i dont think killing him was ever on the agenda.

Also its pretty likely had the fight not been cut short by the arrival of so called smartest man on earth, its likely he would have been knocked out, he looked in worst shape possible

He laters heals, but so does Superboy Prime.

#8 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

As I don't know enough about pluto I will say SBP.

#9 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

bump.

#10 Posted by Onemoreposter (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is Toni from the end of Irredeemable after he's learned all those new abilities from Qubit then the Plutonian stomps.

If this is Toni from any other point in the series he probably wins but there will be a bit of a battle.

#11 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter said:

If this is Toni from the end of Irredeemable after he's learned all those new abilities from Qubit then the Plutonian stomps.

If this is Toni from any other point in the series he probably wins but there will be a bit of a battle.

Its the one from the end of the series.

And how exactly does he stomp?

#12 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

Please post my Plutonian feats from here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/who-can-defeat-the-plutonian/656885/

I am on my mobile phone and cannot postright now. But Plutonian is an reality manipulator. He causes his opponents durability tonlower like pillows and makes his durability hard as diamonds. He later on blows ip mountains with a click of his finger. And unlike Superman, he can fly and navigate freely at FTL so it seemslike he has better reaction times bby far than Prime who doesn't seem overwhelmingly faster than Superman.

Plutonian takes . it

#13 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Jayfournines said:

I think i'll go with the Plutonian on this one, his reality altering powers will come into play, and if he can't physically alter prime, he will alter things around him to give him an advantage

His reality altering powers?

The only person who though his powers were akin to reality altering was Modeus when his parents explained him about who he is they never mentioned anything about reality altering. Also to prevent the whole he is from a heritage of beings who have been said to be nearly omnipotent i specifically put the morals on clause to prevent such supposition.

I dont know, without it to me it looks pretty close. Neither have any sort of quantifiable reaction time but have appeared really fast, Superboy Prime has actually better strength feats so i would consider him stronger, Plutonian has more versatility and much like silver surfer doesnt use anything when he fights.

Yes indeed he is a reality manipulator. After Moses tells Qubit how his powers work he also tells Qubit that he has figures it out dozens of times on his own but Modeus erases his memory. Well when Qubit find that out he gets rid of Modeus virus and then teaches Tony dozens of new ways to use his power.

Qubit only knew how to teach Tony these things because Modeus was correct. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Qubit to agree with Modeus and also know how to teach Tony on how to use his powers.

#14 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Yes indeed he is a reality manipulator. After Moses tells Qubit how his powers work he also tells Qubit that he has figures it out dozens of times on his own but Modeus erases his memory. Well when Qubit find that out he gets rid of Modeus virus and then teaches Tony dozens of new ways to use his power.

He is not a reality manipulator, nor was he never stated he is. It was stated that , if he understands his power correctly he will be a reality manipulator.

In fact, i better post the scans rather than simple words.

That problem being these are things he can do if he moves from Kinder Garden to Grade School, not to mention these are actually unsubstantive guesses from the two of what he might be able to do as oppose to what he normally does, which would be mind-over matter.

This is further enforced by the fact that Toni himself said he cannot stop/ turn back time, obviously because he doesnt know how to.

The scan below is from Irredeemable 16

Qubit only knew how to teach Tony these things because Modeus was correct. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Qubit to agree with Modeus and also know how to teach Tony on how to use his powers.

On the contrary the abilities Qubit teaches Toni has actually nothing to do with reality manipulation. Here are tricks that Qubit taught Tony, scans below are from Irredeemable 34

So the abilities being taught was manipulating atomic density, exploiting quantum entanglement, inertia negation and telekenesis. Neither of them have anything to do with reality warping.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree, but the way i interepreted reading Irredemable was Modeus and Qubit, based on what Tony can do insinuated that he might be able to alter reality. Given the fact that he never altered reality in the whole series, his parents when they talk about his origin has never mentioned anything about reality warping (i would assume they could have warped reality where the energy bubble never encased them, as oppose to just sitting inside to people wont die). Also if reality warping was a standard power set of Plutonian and something he could control, wouldnt that be the first thing you expect Qubit to teach him when earth is engulfed in deadly radiation, or when Tony wants a second chance to redeem himself rather than having himself killed. Wouldnt Tony simply have been able to change the bullet from magic candle (forgot the name so i am just calling it magic candle :p ) to change to something rather than the only substance that can kill him.

#15 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Please post my Plutonian feats from here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/who-can-defeat-the-plutonian/656885/

I am on my mobile phone and cannot postright now. But Plutonian is an reality manipulator. He causes his opponents durability tonlower like pillows and makes his durability hard as diamonds. He later on blows ip mountains with a click of his finger. And unlike Superman, he can fly and navigate freely at FTL so it seemslike he has better reaction times bby far than Prime who doesn't seem overwhelmingly faster than Superman.

Plutonian takes . it

Any reason to believe that is true? The only speed feat that i can think of from plutonia was being able to outrace a radio wave and being able to chase a transmission ray, neither says its faster than light. Also wouldnt that be travel speed, combat speed wise he has shown 0 reaction time.

And reality warping and changing opponents durability is something he unconsciously does, he couldnt do that against Bette, he couldnt do that against Charybdis (or should i call it Survivor). Also apart from the words of Modes and Qubit there really isnt anything to substantiate that. Also one of the rules in the thread is, he only uses ability he has shown to use and that rule was placed solely to prevent from these kind of his abilities.

I think its close, dont get me wrong i am not correcting you, i am not calling you out, but rather at least for the purpose of "this" thread those arent abilities Plutonian has access to.

The quantum entanglement, and mountain thing he still does.

#16 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there are just too many things in the book alluding to his ability to unconsciously alter reality for us not to take that into consideration. I've tried, but each time I come to the conclusion that given a strong enough opponent, he will unleash his powers out of a survival reflex.

#17 Posted by SoA (4592 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian is pretty much SA Superman , Plutonian wins

#18 Posted by Dark Cloud™ (2166 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian wins as I don't acknowledge cry babies.

#19 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

Plutonian is pretty much SA Superman , Plutonian wins

Based on what? He doesnt have strength feat to put him above normal Superman , nor does he has speed feat to do the same. Where is the comparison of Silver Age Superman coming from?

#20 Edited by xeon1cs (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

I definitely wouldn't say Plutonian is SA Superman.

While he possesses lightspeed travel, his strength definitely isn't up to par. He strained to sink Singapore. However his powerset pretty much lets him physically hurt anyone, due to altering their structure subconsciously or whatever.

Also I believe Plutonian has picosecond reaction times. It took a picosecond for a signal to travel back to Modeus or something, Plutonian reacted to it and followed it. But it's pretty much never been displayed again as far as I can remember.

#21 Posted by SoA (4592 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: last issue of Irredeemable when Plutonian was scattered all throughout multiple universes bits of his essence made heroes in their respective universes, and one circumstance was siegal & shuster creating superman aka SA era supes. this is my evidence lol

#22 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

Also I believe Plutonian has picosecond reaction times. It took a picosecond for a signal to travel back to Modeus or something, Plutonian reacted to it and followed it. But it's pretty much never been displayed again as far as I can remember.

This part is not true, i think you mis-interpreted what actually happened in Irredeemable 17.

Here are the scans

What i am trying to get at is, picosecond was never used to represent the speed of the transmission, which obviously cant be because picosecond is the measure of time as opposed to speed, but rather than message embedded in the transmission was of a picosecond length, i.e. extremely short message. What the message was is never explained.

Also look at the part where picosecond is mentioned.

He clearly says "Ethercaset a picosecond long battle report" if fact the battle report is being bolded in the comics to show it was the length of the report and nothing to do with the speed of the said broadcast. While it is impressive Tony could figure out that it had a battle report that short, it is by no means a reaction feat.

He however outraces the signal in the Modeus's lab which is a pretty impressive speed feat, but thats about it.

#23 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

@Killemall: last issue of Irredeemable when Plutonian was scattered all throughout multiple universes bits of his essence made heroes in their respective universes, and one circumstance was siegal & shuster creating superman aka SA era supes. this is my evidence lol

LOL fair enough then ;)

#24 Posted by xeon1cs (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Ah, alright. Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure.

#25 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@Killemall: Ah, alright. Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure.

No worries, you still think Plutonian would beat Superboy Prime ?? (i dont have a reason to disagree whatever your assessment might be, i personally think its still very close).

#26 Posted by xeon1cs (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: It's tough to say. I agree it would be very close. Plutonian has such a strange powerset, despite being a brick-type character, as opposed to other bricks.

I'd say it could go either way. Maybe slightly leaning towards Plutonian.

#27 Posted by AngryHulks (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@xeon1cs said:

Also I believe Plutonian has picosecond reaction times. It took a picosecond for a signal to travel back to Modeus or something, Plutonian reacted to it and followed it. But it's pretty much never been displayed again as far as I can remember.

This part is not true, i think you mis-interpreted what actually happened in Irredeemable 17.

Here are the scans

What i am trying to get at is, picosecond was never used to represent the speed of the transmission, which obviously cant be because picosecond is the measure of time as opposed to speed, but rather than message embedded in the transmission was of a picosecond length, i.e. extremely short message. What the message was is never explained.

Also look at the part where picosecond is mentioned.

He clearly says "Ethercaset a picosecond long battle report" if fact the battle report is being bolded in the comics to show it was the length of the report and nothing to do with the speed of the said broadcast. While it is impressive Tony could figure out that it had a battle report that short, it is by no means a reaction feat.

He however outraces the signal in the Modeus's lab which is a pretty impressive speed feat, but thats about it.

He also outraced the radio signal on the first few issues (don't remember which, maybe #2), regardless of the type of signal, all types of electromagnetic waves are as fast as light. He destroyed the satellite after the signal was freshly released from the station, that's interpret that he has faster-than-light reaction.

Regular Superman himself have reaction time just below the speed of light, I don't know how fast Superboy Prime is.

#28 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

He also outraced the radio signal on the first few issues (don't remember which, maybe #2), regardless of the type of signal, all types of electromagnetic waves are as fast as light. He destroyed the satellite after the signal was freshly released from the station

Yes i have read the issue in question and you got the issue spot on

And what he does in this instance, is races before the signal reaches the satellite correct. How exactly is that a reaction feat might i ask?

Furthermore, They only travel at the speed of light in a vacuum, when propogating through a medium they are slowed according to the permeability and permativity of the medium.

C = 1/sqrt(Permeability * Permativity)

2. Air has nearly normal permeability and permativity so in practice they do travel a nearly the speed of light.

Lets go one step forward.

Even in the description they have given you prematitive factors like Gravity and atmospheric interference, which would decrease the speed of the said transmission quite rapidly.

In addition,

In 1/3 of a second light can travel 99,930.819 Kms i do not think that how far the satellite was.

Regular Superman himself have reaction time just below the speed of light, I don't know how fast Superboy Prime is.

I have no reason to believe Superboy Prime is any faster than Superman, but Superman himself has escaped black hole (artifical or otherwise), travel to a different star system without a huge amount of time being mentioned, flew to the sun and back with Wonder woman in a fight which lasted less than 2 mins. We certainly have enough evidence to show Superman could replicate that speed feat, dont we?

#29 Posted by AngryHulks (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@AngryHulks said:

He also outraced the radio signal on the first few issues (don't remember which, maybe #2), regardless of the type of signal, all types of electromagnetic waves are as fast as light. He destroyed the satellite after the signal was freshly released from the station

Yes i have read the issue in question and you got the issue spot on

And what he does in this instance, is races before the signal reaches the satellite correct. How exactly is that a reaction feat might i ask?

Furthermore, They only travel at the speed of light in a vacuum, when propogating through a medium they are slowed according to the permeability and permativity of the medium.

C = 1/sqrt(Permeability * Permativity)

2. Air has nearly normal permeability and permativity so in practice they do travel a nearly the speed of light.

Lets go one step forward.

Even in the description they have given you prematitive factors like Gravity and atmospheric interference, which would decrease the speed of the said transmission quite rapidly.

In addition,

In 1/3 of a second light can travel 99,930.819 Kms i do not think that how far the satellite was.

Regular Superman himself have reaction time just below the speed of light, I don't know how fast Superboy Prime is.

I have no reason to believe Superboy Prime is any faster than Superman, but Superman himself has escaped black hole (artifical or otherwise), travel to a different star system without a huge amount of time being mentioned, flew to the sun and back with Wonder woman in a fight which lasted less than 2 mins. We certainly have enough evidence to show Superman could replicate that speed feat, dont we?

I'm not sure, but back when I took physics, the Earth's atmospherics interference and gravity DOES affect the speed of light, but the effects was nearly negligible. I do the rough calculation, the satellite must be 1/3 of the moon distance, but that's far from reality, so I think the time it takes for a sound signal to be converted to electromagnetic wave must be one of a account to considers.

Superman escaping black hole and crossing interstellar distance is traveling speed feat, not really a reaction-close-distance-speed. Even Thor have escaped black hole, and he is nowhere as fast as Superman. Superman's manageable speed is just below light, but anything beyond light is only belongs to anyone related to Flash.

#30 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

I'm not sure, but back when I took physics, the Earth's atmospherics interference and gravity DOES affect the speed of light, but the effects was nearly negligible. I do the rough calculation, the satellite must be 1/3 of the moon distance, but that's far from reality, so I think the time it takes for a sound signal to be converted to electromagnetic wave must be one of a account to considers.

Yes it does affect the speed of light not saying otherwise. But when you say speed of light the consideration given is generally the unbreakable rule of physics as "c" which is speed of light in vaccum.

Superman escaping black hole and crossing interstellar distance is traveling speed feat, not really a reaction-close-distance-speed. Even Thor have escaped black hole, and he is nowhere as fast as Superman. Superman's manageable speed is just below light, but anything beyond light is only belongs to anyone related to Flash.

Superman's speed feat was travel, Thor's speed feat was travel and as far as travel speed is concerned Thor has potential to exceed that of Superman. The problem being i dont see how that would be a reaction feat from Plutonian. He just rammed into the satellite, which he knew where it was given he works for the same radio station. Its not like he dodged a beam that was said to travel at light speed (like Cassy and Captain America as done :p but thats a different issue).

Point was both are travel speed with little to no quantifiable reaction speed. Travelling and ramming yourself to a satellite doesnt automatically mean you can fight at that speed. Not to mention Plutonian has never in the whole series fought at such speed, he has blitz few fodders, blocked bullets and what not, but we dont have a single reaction speed so to speak and i dont see why we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

#31 Posted by AngryHulks (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@AngryHulks said:

I'm not sure, but back when I took physics, the Earth's atmospherics interference and gravity DOES affect the speed of light, but the effects was nearly negligible. I do the rough calculation, the satellite must be 1/3 of the moon distance, but that's far from reality, so I think the time it takes for a sound signal to be converted to electromagnetic wave must be one of a account to considers.

Yes it does affect the speed of light not saying otherwise. But when you say speed of light the consideration given is generally the unbreakable rule of physics as "c" which is speed of light in vaccum.

Superman escaping black hole and crossing interstellar distance is traveling speed feat, not really a reaction-close-distance-speed. Even Thor have escaped black hole, and he is nowhere as fast as Superman. Superman's manageable speed is just below light, but anything beyond light is only belongs to anyone related to Flash.

Superman's speed feat was travel, Thor's speed feat was travel and as far as travel speed is concerned Thor has potential to exceed that of Superman. The problem being i dont see how that would be a reaction feat from Plutonian. He just rammed into the satellite, which he knew where it was given he works for the same radio station. Its not like he dodged a beam that was said to travel at light speed (like Cassy and Captain America as done :p but thats a different issue).

Point was both are travel speed with little to no quantifiable reaction speed. Travelling and ramming yourself to a satellite doesnt automatically mean you can fight at that speed. Not to mention Plutonian has never in the whole series fought at such speed, he has blitz few fodders, blocked bullets and what not, but we dont have a single reaction speed so to speak and i dont see why we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

I like your explanation, but I have more to discuss.

How about him finishing multiple tasks in different locations in under a second? At least that would suggest that he have speed enough to approach regular Superman.

#32 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

I like your explanation, but I have more to discuss.

How about him finishing multiple tasks in different locations in under a second? At least that would suggest that he have speed enough to approach regular Superman.

I never said he is slower that superman, he has consistently shown to be fast so i see no reason to believe him slower or faster than Superman, perhaps keep him at the same level. Superman / Superboy Prime have better strength feat so i would keep them stronger, but Plutonian has lot more versatility. That is why i personally think the fight is close, or closer than few people were initially making it out to be.

#33 Edited by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Plutonian is a reality manipulator and in the end of the series he does understand his powers. He's not like Doctor Manhatten but he never had a chance to use his powers for more than a few weeks so he could have been. The main part of his reality manipulation is the fact that he is altering molecules at a molecular level, changing his own density and his opponents. "Most remarkably of all, he manipulates the density of matter with a thought. Toughening his skin and muscle harder than Diamond. While, conversely, temporarily reduces the mass of solids he makes contact with so he can smash through them." Reducing mass also means reducing density as density is mass per volume.

Taken from http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=751226 all the credit goes to Sinestro of that forum. So give him some thanks if you like these scans. These are pre-amped Plutonian also:

Plutonian withstands a nuclear explosion.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3...rajecps020.jpg

Plutonian was able to sustain the gravity well, while the others where turned into slush. It’s a strength feat, since Plutonian is standing up to the weight of an entire solar system.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2...mable21018.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2...mable21019.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6...mable21020.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9...mable21024.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5...mable21023.jpg

Outraces a radio signal before it reaches the orbiting satellite.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2137/irr2p16.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5447/irr2p17.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7522/irr2p18.jpg

Not fast enough for you? Modeous is receiving a burst of data, at incredible speed measured by picoseconds. Plutonian notices these signals, and outraces them…leading to its source, on Modeous hidden base.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3...rajecps020.jpg

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8...rajecps021.jpg

Plutonian was confused here and not fighting back. But he survives a blow, and each one of those blows is equal to the energy of a whole star.

As for the Picosecond thing, he instantly moved at those speeds, he moved a picosecond from space to wherever Modeus was where is Superman is not capable of moving like that. He has to charge up, prepare to fly at those kinds of speeds, etc.

Like when these bullets were all fired, they had a good start and he didn't really stop any of them.

He didn't have to do anything of this, the machine sent the signal and he instantly just beat the signal to where it was going.

The machine had already fired the signal, you can see it in the first panel, and then Plutonian races against it and beats it near instantly.

#34 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8754 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:  
Why are you using those lowball scans from Azzrellos run? I'm not trying to wank Superman or say he's just as quick as the Plutonian but still, not fast enough to stop machine gun fire? C'mon.....
#35 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: I don't understand why anyone would record a "picosecond" of a battle, that doesn't make any sense why someone would like a picosecond long recording of data. But if you are trying to argue against that, most radio signals in space travel at light speeds. So even if you think the thing only recorded a picosecond of information, it still sent the signal initially at light speeds. It still had a head start from Plutonian, and he still outraced it.

And even though there is gravity initially, they still narrate that to Plutonian, it's still like "all the time in the world."

So regardless, to be able to react ot a signal that was sent at light speed has to mean you have picosecond reaction time. To be able to beat that signal after it was already shot or at least meet it at its finish line shows that too. The author clearly narrates above that compared to a radio wave he still has "all the time in the world."

So it doesn't matter what you think about the "picosecond long recording." The physics, facts and proof is in the artwork when the signal fires first and then he goes second, and the narration above.

#36 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@SlimJ87D: Why are you using those lowball scans from Azzrellos run? I'm not trying to wank Superman or say he's just as quick as the Plutonian but still, not fast enough to stop machine gun fire? C'mon.....

Butters, I grow tired of you. I really do.

Superman, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel do not battle at FTL.

How fast is Superman? Sure he can fly at faster than light (FTL), but can he actually move his body at such speeds?

By speculation maybe he can. But from what we have seen, he cannot. Not like the Flash has.

First I will address this notorious scan of Superman chasing Wally.

People try and use this scan and the calculation above to show that they are running FTL. Now they misinterpret the scan and ignore all the narration and dialogue that Wally states before he approximates his calculation. He says that if he steals Superman's speed and turns him into a statue like he did to inertia, then it the speed and momentum they are moving at would make it so like he is moving much faster than FTL. Don't believe me, I have more evidence.

This is Superman running after Flash, people have used this scan to try and say Superman easily runs at light speed. He is not flying and using his biosphere. Therefore lets accept that he is using his superspeed with his limbs. Look at his facial expression, he is struggling to catch the Flash while the Flash barely seems to exert himself. Now how fast are they actually moving? Here is the scan that people FAIL to post when they are claiming FTL again.

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

To be continued: As of March 3, 2012 a user ( ) has pointed an awesome scan to me of Black Adam moving at Mach 500. Might debunk or give another analysis as to how fast Superman can actually move his limbs.

#37 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8754 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@SlimJ87D: Why are you using those lowball scans from Azzrellos run? I'm not trying to wank Superman or say he's just as quick as the Plutonian but still, not fast enough to stop machine gun fire? C'mon.....

Butters, I grow tired of you. I really do.

Superman, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel do not battle at FTL.

Uhhhhh why? Have we even interacted on this site before? But anyways, ignoring the fact that I don't care that you grow 'tired' of me, I was never trying to say Superman was FTL. Read my post before you get all uppity and full of yourself. 
 
Now, without all the haughtiness, can you please tell me why you are using those scans. Or do you really think Superman is not fast enough to catch machine gun fire?
#38 Edited by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: The scan is narrating that Superman can catcha bullet, but when 100s of them are fired he's not fast enough to catch them all.

The other scans are to add to Superman's actual reaction time and where he operates at. He should operate around the same speeds as Black Adam, either a little bit faster or even slower.

Now compare that to Superboy-Prime, he's never speed blitzed Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Powergirl or MM. He' fast too, but how much faster than these guys? It can't be that much faster due to the fact they have all traded blows.

So there, we have a gauge of how fast Superboy-Prime is. Battlespeed and reaction wise he's probably a bit above Black Adam IMO, if not equal to him.

Now in this thread, we are comparing this to Plutonian. When a light speed signal was shot in space, it was shot first. The signal had a head start. But he still managed to either beat it to the finish line or meet it there. If a projectile was fired at light speed, I don't think Superman is fast enough to interact with it or intercept it side by side. If it was shot directly at him, I think he could dodge it or use something to block it sure. I'm not saying Superman isn't faster than a bullet, he definitely is. But he's more than likely to operate around the same speed as black Adam. There's a scan of him catching a bullet from miles and miles away to save Loius. But I don't think he operates at the same speed as Plutonian that's all.

And I'm sorry, I totally got you mixed up with another butters that was around 500 post. The window I type in is at work and is very tiny so no one can see I'm on a comic book forum. My apologies again.

#39 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

For the record, I am not saying he isn't faster thana bullet.

#40 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8754 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:  
Ok no problem. The sudden hostility just caught me off guard. And for the record, I do agree with most of what you have to say.
#41 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I have read every issue of Plutonian thus far, and i never said he doesnt understand his power what i asked for is a proof that he is a reality manipulator.

That is NOT reality manipulation thats matter manipulation, not to mention he cant control that power nor has he ever shown the ability to do so.

Lets take a fight, after Irredeemable 34 afte rhe learns the ability that you are taking about, and he still doesnt use any of those in his fight with Bette, so what i am asking is based on what are we saying he is going to be able to use that fight against Superboy Prime.

Irredeemable 35

so he certainly did not manipulate Betty's molecules and the only person who though he could manipulate people durability was Modeus and given the fact that he has never actually dont so consciously i do not understand how we are interpreting it as reality manipulation.

For whatever reason i cant see the scan you are trying to post, so i am going to assume you are talking about his instance?

Irredemable 03

Wonder Woman and the likes have taken better damage than that.

Plutonian was able to sustain the gravity well, while the others where turned into slush. It’s a strength feat, since Plutonian is standing up to the weight of an entire solar system.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2...mable21018.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2...mable21019.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6...mable21020.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9...mable21024.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5...mable21023.jpg

Where are you getting that from? Where is the Solar system part coming from?

All they actually said was the top limit of the gravity well was 1/2 the power of a black hole.

Also by itself this is not even a quantifiable feat because we do not know the size of the black hole.

And here we have Superman surviving the pull of a black hole

I have little to no idea where the whole solar system part is coming from.

We have no idea how fast the transmission was, also saying Superman cant instantly achieve that kind of speed is not correct. Here one where he does achieve that kind of speed instantly

#42 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@SlimJ87D: Why are you using those lowball scans from Azzrellos run? I'm not trying to wank Superman or say he's just as quick as the Plutonian but still, not fast enough to stop machine gun fire? C'mon.....

Butters, I grow tired of you. I really do.

Superman, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel do not battle at FTL.

How fast is Superman? Sure he can fly at faster than light (FTL), but can he actually move his body at such speeds?

By speculation maybe he can. But from what we have seen, he cannot. Not like the Flash has.

First I will address this notorious scan of Superman chasing Wally.

People try and use this scan and the calculation above to show that they are running FTL. Now they misinterpret the scan and ignore all the narration and dialogue that Wally states before he approximates his calculation. He says that if he steals Superman's speed and turns him into a statue like he did to inertia, then it the speed and momentum they are moving at would make it so like he is moving much faster than FTL. Don't believe me, I have more evidence.

This is Superman running after Flash, people have used this scan to try and say Superman easily runs at light speed. He is not flying and using his biosphere. Therefore lets accept that he is using his superspeed with his limbs. Look at his facial expression, he is struggling to catch the Flash while the Flash barely seems to exert himself. Now how fast are they actually moving? Here is the scan that people FAIL to post when they are claiming FTL again.

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

To be continued: As of March 3, 2012 a user ( ) has pointed an awesome scan to me of Black Adam moving at Mach 500. Might debunk or give another analysis as to how fast Superman can actually move his limbs.

Any reason to believe this doesnt apply to Plutonian, its not like he can punched or kicked FLT before?

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: I don't understand why anyone would record a "picosecond" of a battle, that doesn't make any sense why someone would like a picosecond long recording of data. But if you are trying to argue against that, most radio signals in space travel at light speeds. So even if you think the thing only recorded a picosecond of information, it still sent the signal initially at light speeds. It still had a head start from Plutonian, and he still outraced it.

And even though there is gravity initially, they still narrate that to Plutonian, it's still like "all the time in the world."

So regardless, to be able to react ot a signal that was sent at light speed has to mean you have picosecond reaction time. To be able to beat that signal after it was already shot or at least meet it at its finish line shows that too. The author clearly narrates above that compared to a radio wave he still has "all the time in the world."

So it doesn't matter what you think about the "picosecond long recording." The physics, facts and proof is in the artwork when the signal fires first and then he goes second, and the narration above.

What what?

Light speed is generally measured in micro/nanosecond how exactly does that translate into a picosecond reaction time?? Explain please.

#43 Posted by AngryHulks (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@buttersdaman000: The scan is narrating that Superman can catcha bullet, but when 100s of them are fired he's not fast enough to catch them all.

The other scans are to add to Superman's actual reaction time and where he operates at. He should operate around the same speeds as Black Adam, either a little bit faster or even slower.

Now compare that to Superboy-Prime, he's never speed blitzed Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Powergirl or MM. He' fast too, but how much faster than these guys? It can't be that much faster due to the fact they have all traded blows.

So there, we have a gauge of how fast Superboy-Prime is. Battlespeed and reaction wise he's probably a bit above Black Adam IMO, if not equal to him.

Now in this thread, we are comparing this to Plutonian. When a light speed signal was shot in space, it was shot first. The signal had a head start. But he still managed to either beat it to the finish line or meet it there. If a projectile was fired at light speed, I don't think Superman is fast enough to interact with it or intercept it side by side. If it was shot directly at him, I think he could dodge it or use something to block it sure. I'm not saying Superman isn't faster than a bullet, he definitely is. But he's more than likely to operate around the same speed as black Adam. There's a scan of him catching a bullet from miles and miles away to save Loius. But I don't think he operates at the same speed as Plutonian that's all.

And I'm sorry, I totally got you mixed up with another butters that was around 500 post. The window I type in is at work and is very tiny so no one can see I'm on a comic book forum. My apologies again.

I was using Plutonian intercepting the satellite feat at first. Then I realized something I learnt from physics class...

When the radio station staff talked into the transmitter, the sound must travel through the machine to be converted to electromagnetic waves first, anyone who is at least 10 times faster than the speed of sound can react to that. So there're some delays between the signal, it's not like the radio signal is transmitted as a light in the first place.

#44 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@SlimJ87D: Why are you using those lowball scans from Azzrellos run? I'm not trying to wank Superman or say he's just as quick as the Plutonian but still, not fast enough to stop machine gun fire? C'mon.....

Actually i dont see a reason why you would be wrong, i have seen no reason to believe Plutonian is faster than Superman like none at all, at least Superman has a quantifiable nanosecond reaction time,

#45 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@buttersdaman000: The scan is narrating that Superman can catcha bullet, but when 100s of them are fired he's not fast enough to catch them all.

The other scans are to add to Superman's actual reaction time and where he operates at. He should operate around the same speeds as Black Adam, either a little bit faster or even slower.

Now compare that to Superboy-Prime, he's never speed blitzed Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Powergirl or MM. He' fast too, but how much faster than these guys? It can't be that much faster due to the fact they have all traded blows.

So there, we have a gauge of how fast Superboy-Prime is. Battlespeed and reaction wise he's probably a bit above Black Adam IMO, if not equal to him.

Now in this thread, we are comparing this to Plutonian. When a light speed signal was shot in space, it was shot first. The signal had a head start. But he still managed to either beat it to the finish line or meet it there. If a projectile was fired at light speed, I don't think Superman is fast enough to interact with it or intercept it side by side. If it was shot directly at him, I think he could dodge it or use something to block it sure. I'm not saying Superman isn't faster than a bullet, he definitely is. But he's more than likely to operate around the same speed as black Adam. There's a scan of him catching a bullet from miles and miles away to save Loius. But I don't think he operates at the same speed as Plutonian that's all.

And I'm sorry, I totally got you mixed up with another butters that was around 500 post. The window I type in is at work and is very tiny so no one can see I'm on a comic book forum. My apologies again.

I was using Plutonian intercepting the satellite feat at first. Then I realized something I learnt from physics class...

When the radio station staff talked into the transmitter, the sound must travel through the machine to be converted to electromagnetic waves first, anyone who is at least 10 times faster than the speed of sound can react to that. So there're some delays between the signal, it's not like the radio signal is transmitted as a light in the first place.

Also add, captain America for has dodged lasers, they all travel at light speed too :p certainly undermines the physics involved doesnt it?

#46 Posted by AngryHulks (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@AngryHulks said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@buttersdaman000: The scan is narrating that Superman can catcha bullet, but when 100s of them are fired he's not fast enough to catch them all.

The other scans are to add to Superman's actual reaction time and where he operates at. He should operate around the same speeds as Black Adam, either a little bit faster or even slower.

Now compare that to Superboy-Prime, he's never speed blitzed Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Powergirl or MM. He' fast too, but how much faster than these guys? It can't be that much faster due to the fact they have all traded blows.

So there, we have a gauge of how fast Superboy-Prime is. Battlespeed and reaction wise he's probably a bit above Black Adam IMO, if not equal to him.

Now in this thread, we are comparing this to Plutonian. When a light speed signal was shot in space, it was shot first. The signal had a head start. But he still managed to either beat it to the finish line or meet it there. If a projectile was fired at light speed, I don't think Superman is fast enough to interact with it or intercept it side by side. If it was shot directly at him, I think he could dodge it or use something to block it sure. I'm not saying Superman isn't faster than a bullet, he definitely is. But he's more than likely to operate around the same speed as black Adam. There's a scan of him catching a bullet from miles and miles away to save Loius. But I don't think he operates at the same speed as Plutonian that's all.

And I'm sorry, I totally got you mixed up with another butters that was around 500 post. The window I type in is at work and is very tiny so no one can see I'm on a comic book forum. My apologies again.

I was using Plutonian intercepting the satellite feat at first. Then I realized something I learnt from physics class...

When the radio station staff talked into the transmitter, the sound must travel through the machine to be converted to electromagnetic waves first, anyone who is at least 10 times faster than the speed of sound can react to that. So there're some delays between the signal, it's not like the radio signal is transmitted as a light in the first place.

Also add, captain America for has dodged lasers, they all travel at light speed too :p certainly undermines the physics involved doesnt it?

Since I don't see a lot of explanation of why the street levelers can dodge laser, I guess I'll make my own hypothesis.

They seems to be instinctively dodge the laser by dodging whenever the trigger was pulled, more likely "dodge" the laser before it was fired, then repeat consecutively. They might heard the sound of the trigger.

Normal humans can evades machine gun fire to some degree (albeit not as effective as Matrix-style dodge), and we don't have a perception to see the incoming bullets.

Better explanation yet, the mooks was.. just a mook.. Don't always expects them to fire accurately.

#47 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks: Normal human cant dodge bullet matrix style? Casandra cain sure as hell did :p

Batgirl Volume 1, Issue 13: Dodging multiple bullets with absolute ease

My point was you dont go around applying physics to credit a feat.

#48 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: The gravitaional black hole thing. That is not my writing, sorry if it was not clear but those parts and links are quoted from here.

"Taken from http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=751226 all the credit goes to Sinestro of that forum. So give him some thanks if you like these scans. These are pre-amped Plutonian also:"

Fair enough about the reality manipulation thing, I wasn't comparing him to Wanda. But to me Molecule Man's powers for example were considered reality manipulation but I can be wrong about the term there. So Plutonian is a molecular manipulator for this debate.

My argument is that the "picosecond recording" doesn't make sense and that it would take a picosecond to send a battle report. It just doesnt' make sense for anyone to collect 1 picosecond of battle data. Specially when the battle lasted more than a picosecond. But if you feel like disagreeing, fine. Fair enough, I'll play it your way. Reaction times are different from operating times. When I say reaction time I'm talking about reflexes. We have millisecond reaction times. A flea flying into your eye and you blink before it gets there for example.

As for the scan, it shows Plutonian reacting right away to something that was sent out before he noticed. He instantly reacted and beat it there. Superman doesn't operate like that. And for him to move at light speeds, he has to accelerate to those speeds. Plutonian did it right away, didn't need to accelerate, etc. So I think there's enough evidence to show Plutnoian is faster and reacts faster than Superboy-Prime.

Transmissions go at the speed of light, that's the way they work. They are electromagnetic waves of light. I don't know how or why Modous would downgrade technology to travel slower.

I have to cut my debate here short as I got to get some work done. But Plutonian beats Prime. Prime's blows will be softened, and Plutonians hardened. Plutonian is faster than prime. Plutonian survived blows where each blow equaled that of the energy of a star concentrated all on his face. (I think you disagreed earlier about this feat, well I'll agree to disagree), Prime cannot deliver those kind of blows. Because Prime's density gets changed he is going to feel pain. He felt pain from Krypto, Superboy and Bart. Plutonian can also go intangible, he can rip Prime's armor off because he can control metal and if the fight ever reaches a dark part of the world Prime will begin to lose his powers unless he stays in the sun, Plutnoian can blow Prime up with the click of his fingers to annoy him and get the best of him and then attack him while he's distracted. Plutonian is the winner because his powers work much differently than Prime's.

@AngryHulks: That would be true, but look at the scan with the green signal. it was already fired and on its way to its destination. AND THEN Plutonian chased it. It didn't get converted.

The other scan is comparing him to the signal and saying that compared to the signal's speed, Plutonian has all the time in the world to intercept it. That can be taken as hyperbole in this scan I guess.

#49 Posted by SlimJ87D (8891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: lastly, I'll put it this way abotu the picosecond thing.

There's two ways we can interpret it. It either recorded a whole battle and the whole battle happened in a picosecond. Or it took a picosecond for it to get to its destination. Either result shows that Plutonian is able to use his super speed to blitz faster than the DC heavy hitters.

#50 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: The gravitaional black hole thing. That is not my writing, sorry if it was not clear but those parts and links are quoted from here.

"Taken from http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=751226 all the credit goes to Sinestro of that forum. So give him some thanks if you like these scans. These are pre-amped Plutonian also:"

Fair enough about the reality manipulation thing, I wasn't comparing him to Wanda. But to me Molecule Man's powers for example were considered reality manipulation but I can be wrong about the term there. So Plutonian is a molecular manipulator for this debate.

Fair enough no worries.

My argument is that the "picosecond recording" doesn't make sense and that it would take a picosecond to send a battle report. It just doesnt' make sense for anyone to collect 1 picosecond of battle data. Specially when the battle lasted more than a picosecond. But if you feel like disagreeing, fine. Fair enough, I'll play it your way. Reaction times are different from operating times. When I say reaction time I'm talking about reflexes. We have millisecond reaction times. A flea flying into your eye and you blink before it gets there for example.

Ok i dont understand, Mordeus is a homosexual, smartest robotic kind of a being, maybe he is just smart enough to understand a battle report that is picosecond long. that was it clearly said. The battle report itself was a picosecond long, with the battle report being bolded i dont see where there is reasonable leeway to be addressed.

As for the scan, it shows Plutonian reacting right away to something that was sent out before he noticed. He instantly reacted and beat it there. Superman doesn't operate like that. And for him to move at light speeds, he has to accelerate to those speeds. Plutonian did it right away, didn't need to accelerate, etc. So I think there's enough evidence to show Plutnoian is faster and reacts faster than Superboy-Prime.

Here Superman acclerates faster than Darkseid's omega beam right away, and i see no reason to believe the transmission was any faster, do you?

Apkolopis Now

Transmissions go at the speed of light, that's the way they work. They are electromagnetic waves of light. I don't know how or why Modous would downgrade technology to travel slower.

Yes and that shows he can travel at light speed, something Superman has come close to doing. Flying around at light speed. It still doesnt show his ability to fight, punch, kick at the same speed. The whole superman can fly but cant fight at light speed post addresses this part perfectly.

I have to cut my debate here short as I got to get some work done. But Plutonian beats Prime. Prime's blows will be softened, and Plutonians hardened. Plutonian is faster than prime. Plutonian survived blows where each blow equaled that of the energy of a star concentrated all on his face. (I think you disagreed earlier about this feat, well I'll agree to disagree), Prime cannot deliver those kind of blows. Because Prime's density gets changed he is going to feel pain. He felt pain from Krypto, Superboy and Bart. Plutonian can also go intangible, he can rip Prime's armor off because he can control metal and if the fight ever reaches a dark part of the world Prime will begin to lose his powers unless he stays in the sun, Plutnoian can blow Prime up with the click of his fingers to annoy him and get the best of him and then attack him while he's distracted. Plutonian is the winner because his powers work much differently than Prime's.

I am not going to disagree on who wins, i do not know who wins, nor am i am i supporting any particular character.

But

1. Plutonian making Superboy's durability soft, is questionable because he has never done that in a fight, apart from what Modeus though "he did". Was never proven, he though he hurt powerful character because he soften their durability. To what level is never mentioned, Plutonian has consciously never used that ability before.

2. Star part has been addressed before, so we can agree to disagree. But you gotta admit, 1/1000 of the entire power of a star, used to punch someone would at the very least sink an entire continent as a side effect. Yet nothing is happening in that scan. Also if you look at the scan you posted, you see the star from bright going to dim. Thirdly Modeus never claims he is using entire power of the star , not once, all he said was he was getting the gravitational power of the star and the star would die after each punch.

3. Plutonian was bleeding from a punch from Max damage, whose best feat is lifting cars . That puts him below luke cage, low balling goes both ways.

4. Prime doesnt instantly lose the power.

5. You are purposing Plutonian does something he has never done to win a fight, which is against the rule of the thread.