#1 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52 Superboy (Character)

VS

Iron Man/Wonder Man/Thing/Ms. Marvel

Location: The Fortress of Solitude

Round 1: Random Encounter

  • Takes Place Outside the Fortress of Solitude
  • Conner Is Bloodlusted
  • Avengers are In Character
  • No Prep
  • No Prior Knowledge
  • Standard Gear
  • Post-Blackest Night Kon-El/Current Avengers
  • Win By Incapacitation/KO/BFR/Death

Round 2: Preparation Battle

  • Takes Place Inside the Fortress of Solitude
  • Conner Is Still Bloodlusted
  • Avengers are Still In Character
  • 3 hours prep - Conner has full access to the Fortress of Solitude, Titans Tower and LexCorp Tower / Tony, Simon, Ben and Carol have access to Stark Tower, SHEILD HQ, and the Baxter Building
  • Limited Prior Knowledge - Each Know About Each Other's Abilities But Not Their Weaknesses
  • Post-Blackest Night Kon-El/Current Avengers
  • Win By Incapacitation/KO/BFR/Death
#2 Posted by Tim_Drake4444 (1092 posts) - - Show Bio

This could actually go either way, I'd have to think about this.

#3 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#4 Posted by dondave (37380 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#5 Edited by New_World_Order (13187 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers stomp.

#6 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Bizump

#7 Posted by Pierpat (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd risk sayng wonder man solos.

#8 Posted by 80sBaby (1343 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

I'd risk sayng wonder man solos.

Simon could possibly solo.

I refuse to vote against Conner, though ;-)

#9 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

I'd risk sayng wonder man solos.

Na, he can't, he isn't strong enough or durable enough or even fast enough to solo, but that's why he has a team.

#10 Posted by Pierpat (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

I'd risk sayng wonder man solos.

Na, he can't, he isn't strong enough or durable enough or even fast enough to solo, but that's why he has a team.

He has been stated to be fisically match to sentry and thor.....

#11 Edited by TifaLockhart (14050 posts) - - Show Bio

He's strong and durable enough. You got me on speed though.

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#12 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

He has been stated to be physically match to sentry and thor.....

Fixed, you're welcome. And even if he was "STATED" to be a match for them, he has NO feats to suggest he is....

He's strong and durable enough. You got me on speed though.

No he isn't strong and durable enough, Superboy lifted the Taj Mahal (TK helped but who said it can't here too). He took repeated strikes from his significant other (Emo Boy Prime) and although he died in the end...it was after taking page after page of beat down that matched if not surpassed the amount of punishment the two grown Supermen (new earth and earth 2) when they fought Prime and E-2 Superman died as well .... is E-2 Superman weaker because he died pretty much the same way as Conner? No, Conner's friends and former teammates were getting ripped to shreds while he was taking loads of punishment....Conner has more durability than Simon

#13 Posted by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

He has been stated to be physically match to sentry and thor.....

Fixed, you're welcome. And even if he was "STATED" to be a match for them, he has NO feats to suggest he is....

Well....... not exactly.

To be clear, Thor did win the battle against Simon... but WM showed he could physically match Thor still.

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#14 Posted by Pierpat (2671 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Thor was going easy on Simon and you know it, once he got serious he decided to end it with a quick charged hammer throw. Thor has matched Hulk's strength on several occasions, they were dead locked, unless you are saying Simon is on their level of strength....well, I'll leave it at that .... also, by that logic....I could say that Superboy is on Superboy Prime's level of strength, he tumbled with him for a few pages and even landed a blow or two... I guess they're on the same level of strength too, Tchalla put Norrin in an arm bar, Spiderman duked it out with the Hulk, so did Thing, I guess they're all on the same level, Colossus and Juggernaut go at it a lot, I guess Piotr and Cain are in the same league............see how that works

@pierpat said:

@ancient_0f_days: well, @king_saturn: posted the scns i could not find.

with that, i'd keep my point.

Wounder man solos.

Wrong, you have nothing to support the claim, King Saturn only attempted to refute the point I made about Simon being on Thor's level, and you hopped on it like a frog on a lily pad....all that means is you couldn't come up with your own argument and grabbed on the first one that looked like it supported you, which is hilarious. Look at just about EVERY Superboy vs Wonder Man thread there is .... go on google and have a blast trying yo find where Simon's argument to win is.... it doesn't exist. Wonder Man losing to Thor =/= beating Superboy ....he is outclassed in strength, durability, speed and versatility .... the only thing he has on Conner is overall power, which will not win him the fight alone....he NEEDS Ben, Carol and Tony to fill in where he falls short, but why would I even continue. I'll leave this thread to those who know what they're talking about.

#16 Posted by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Thor was going easy on Simon and you know it, once he got serious he decided to end it with a quick charged hammer throw. Thor has matched Hulk's strength on several occasions, they were dead locked, unless you are saying Simon is on their level of strength....well, I'll leave it at that .... also, by that logic....I could say that Superboy is on Superboy Prime's level of strength, he tumbled with him for a few pages and even landed a blow or two... I guess they're on the same level of strength too, Tchalla put Norrin in an arm bar, Spiderman duked it out with the Hulk, so did Thing, I guess they're all on the same level, Colossus and Juggernaut go at it a lot, I guess Piotr and Cain are in the same league............see how that works

Well technically we don't know if Thor was going easy on Simon... the point of the scans was only to show that Wonder Man can match Thor physically while Thor is in possession of his Hammer... obviously Thor took out Simon... but he did it only under the power of Mjolnir... not under his own physical strength with his fists and that is key. These scans show that Wonder Man can indeed physically match Thor, Thor taking him down with the Hammer only shows that Thor needed to use the power of the Hammer specifically to defeat him.

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#17 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Well technically we don't know if Thor was going easy on Simon... the point of the scans was only to show that Wonder Man can match Thor physically while Thor is in possession of his Hammer... obviously Thor took out Simon... but he did it only under the power of Mjolnir... not under his own physical strength with his fists and that is key. These scans show that Wonder Man can indeed physically match Thor, Thor taking him down with the Hammer only shows that Thor needed to use the power of the Hammer specifically to defeat him.

Thor has feats to suggest he can physically murder Simon without effort, he had his hammer in hand when he physically stalemated Hulk, he had the hammer when he physically stalemated Herc, he had the hammer when he lifted Asgard with BRB, how is Simon's one fight against him gonna add up to that, it seems like PIS to think that Simon was on any real physical level with Thor when you take his other showings into consideration, not even counting their durability feats cus it wouldn't even be fair .... the hammer had nothing to do with it, it was either Thor holding back, PIS, or the sky is falling on us right now.....

With that, I say Simon is NOT on Thor's physical level, if he is then Superboy is on Prime's level....neither have strength feats to suggest they are on the physical level of their superiors, they landed hits and made it look interesting, but that =/= on the same level .....

#18 Edited by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

Well technically we don't know if Thor was going easy on Simon... the point of the scans was only to show that Wonder Man can match Thor physically while Thor is in possession of his Hammer... obviously Thor took out Simon... but he did it only under the power of Mjolnir... not under his own physical strength with his fists and that is key. These scans show that Wonder Man can indeed physically match Thor, Thor taking him down with the Hammer only shows that Thor needed to use the power of the Hammer specifically to defeat him.

Thor has feats to suggest he can physically murder Simon without effort, he had his hammer in hand when he physically stalemated Hulk, he had the hammer when he physically stalemated Herc, he had the hammer when he lifted Asgard with BRB, how is Simon's one fight against him gonna add up to that, it seems like PIS to think that Simon was on any real physical level with Thor when you take his other showings into consideration, not even counting their durability feats cus it wouldn't even be fair .... the hammer had nothing to do with it, it was either Thor holding back, PIS, or the sky is falling on us right now.....

With that, I say Simon is NOT on Thor's physical level, if he is then Superboy is on Prime's level....neither have strength feats to suggest they are on the physical level of their superiors, they landed hits and made it look interesting, but that =/= on the same level .....

Thor has feats to suggest he could put down Simon with the use of the Hammer... remember Thor did eventually beat Simon using the Hammer, so I don't see how it's PIS. Just because Simon does not have a whole lot of high end feats does not mean this one is somehow discredited... it shows that he can Physically Match Thor, not that he can handle the power of Thor's Hammer. The key is how Simon was able to tussle with Thor when it came to physical attacks outside of Thor using the Hammer... because basically 90 percent of all of Thor's high end feats is him using Mjolnir to some effort. Also, Wonder Man does have a feat of lifting a 50,000 ton Machine Press... so I think you are heavily underestimating Simon here.

The reason we know Superboy is not on Prime's level... is because Superboy has no feats outside of his quality antics against Superboy Prime which was PIS for the most part anyways. At least Simon has the 50,000 ton press under his belt. Also, Simon did fight The Hulk in the past and held his own with him too. I think I have some scans of that one as well.

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#19 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor has feats to suggest he could put down Simon with the use of the Hammer... remember Thor did eventually beat Simon using the Hammer, so I don't see how it's PIS. Just because Simon does not have a whole lot of high end feats does not mean this one is somehow discredited... it shows that he can Physically Match Thor, not that he can handle the power of Thor's Hammer. The key is how Simon was able to tussle with Thor when it came to physical attacks outside of Thor using the Hammer... because basically 90 percent of all of Thor's high end feats is him using Mjolnir to some effort. Also, Wonder Man does have a feat of lifting a 50,000 ton Machine Press... so I think you are heavily underestimating Simon here.

The reason we know Superboy is not on Prime's level... is because Superboy has no feats outside of his quality antics against Superboy Prime which was PIS for the most part anyways. At least Simon has the 50,000 ton press under his belt. Also, Simon did fight The Hulk in the past and held his own with him too. I think I have some scans of that one as well.

It's either PIS or Thor was holding back, he has better feats against stronger opponents that Simon isn't in the same league as. That scan you just showed was Proffessor Hulk I believe, who wasn't nearly as powerful as his Savage incarnation which Thor stalemated. So that feat doesn't prove much. I believe Simon can physically match Thor, when he's holding back. But Thor went all out on Hulk, Thor was barely even harmed in his encounter with Wonder Man. It's inconsistent, unless you are saying Simon is on the same level of Savage Hulk and Herc as well, cus they did better than Simon under the same conditions and are indefinitely stronger. I'm not underestimating Simon, I know about his 50,000 ton press, Superboy flew off with a castle the size of the Taj Mahal ...... that's a couple hundred thousand tons ..... Yes he used Tactile TK to give himself a boost.....but it really doesn't matter since he can still use it here so he is stronger still, saying Superboy has no feats is absolutely absurd ..... At least Simon has this lesser feat under his belt.... lol that and he's still slower ..... either way, he isn't on par with Thor physically, he hasn't enough feats for it ...

#20 Edited by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

Thor has feats to suggest he could put down Simon with the use of the Hammer... remember Thor did eventually beat Simon using the Hammer, so I don't see how it's PIS. Just because Simon does not have a whole lot of high end feats does not mean this one is somehow discredited... it shows that he can Physically Match Thor, not that he can handle the power of Thor's Hammer. The key is how Simon was able to tussle with Thor when it came to physical attacks outside of Thor using the Hammer... because basically 90 percent of all of Thor's high end feats is him using Mjolnir to some effort. Also, Wonder Man does have a feat of lifting a 50,000 ton Machine Press... so I think you are heavily underestimating Simon here.

The reason we know Superboy is not on Prime's level... is because Superboy has no feats outside of his quality antics against Superboy Prime which was PIS for the most part anyways. At least Simon has the 50,000 ton press under his belt. Also, Simon did fight The Hulk in the past and held his own with him too. I think I have some scans of that one as well.

It's either PIS or Thor was holding back, he has better feats against stronger opponents that Simon isn't in the same league as. That scan you just showed was Proffessor Hulk I believe, who wasn't nearly as powerful as his Savage incarnation which Thor stalemated. So that feat doesn't prove much. I believe Simon can physically match Thor, when he's holding back. But Thor went all out on Hulk, Thor was barely even harmed in his encounter with Wonder Man. It's inconsistent, unless you are saying Simon is on the same level of Savage Hulk and Herc as well, cus they did better than Simon under the same conditions and are indefinitely stronger. I'm not underestimating Simon, I know about his 50,000 ton press, Superboy flew off with a castle the size of the Taj Mahal ...... that's a couple hundred thousand tons ..... Yes he used Tactile TK to give himself a boost.....but it really doesn't matter since he can still use it here so he is stronger still, saying Superboy has no feats is absolutely absurd ..... At least Simon has this lesser feat under his belt.... lol that and he's still slower ..... either way, he isn't on par with Thor physically, he hasn't enough feats for it ...

Okay so let me get this straight... you explicitly stated that Wonder Man has no feats to suggest that is on par with Thor physically and I show you scans of Wonder Man holding his own in a slugfest with Thor but you can that PIS... then I show you scans of Wonder Man fighting Hulk since you claim that was not enough to show Simon had that type of strength and you say that this particular Hulk is too weak for the feat to have validity ? Come on now... I feel like you are stretching heavy not to give Wonder Man credit here for his ability. It's not inconsistent at all... if Simon can fight and tussle with Thor and Hulk why is it not possible he is near their strength range ?

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#21 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay so let me get this straight... you explicitly stated that Wonder Man has no feats to suggest that is on par with Thor physically and I show you scans of Wonder Man holding his own in a slugfest with Thor but you can that PIS... then I show you scans of Wonder Man fighting Hulk since you claim that was not enough to show Simon had that type of strength and you say that this particular Hulk is too weak for the feat to have validity ? Come on now... I feel like you are stretching heavy not to give Wonder Man credit here for his ability. It's not inconsistent at all... if Simon can fight and tussle with Thor and Hulk why is it not possible he is near their strength range ?

I said Thor was holding back, but you said he there's nothing to prove that, I believe there is but I'm not going to argue that right now, but if Thor wasn't holding back, then it's inconsistent with his showings with stronger opponents. The plot required Simon to show his stuff and he did, until he got KOd by the hammer. Even though he held his own, I can say Thing held his own against Hulk many times and he's only in the 85 ton range, is he in the same league? According to your logic, yes, if it weren't for Hulk getting stronger he'd have kept up the fight, thing is, Hulk was already stronger than him in the first place and wasn't going all out, they weren't in the same range. Simon is obviously the Thing in this case.....You showed me an inconsistent scan, he tussled with a weaker version of Hulk while Thor stalemated a much stronger one, you act as if there is no difference when there is....I didn't say it had no validity, it just doesn't prove your point, it's an example, a small example, but it's not adequate ... Me saying Simon can physically hang with Thor and Savage Hulk is like saying Geo Force can hang with Superman cus of that one fight they had....Geo landed a few hits, didn't do too bad, but Superman was holding back, and when he decided to end it, he did, just like Thor, maybe Thor didn't do it with strength alone, but the point still stands, he has better strength feats that put him on a higher level, so does Hulk....those two feats don't put him on their level.

#22 Posted by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

Okay so let me get this straight... you explicitly stated that Wonder Man has no feats to suggest that is on par with Thor physically and I show you scans of Wonder Man holding his own in a slugfest with Thor but you can that PIS... then I show you scans of Wonder Man fighting Hulk since you claim that was not enough to show Simon had that type of strength and you say that this particular Hulk is too weak for the feat to have validity ? Come on now... I feel like you are stretching heavy not to give Wonder Man credit here for his ability. It's not inconsistent at all... if Simon can fight and tussle with Thor and Hulk why is it not possible he is near their strength range ?

I said Thor was holding back, but you said he there's nothing to prove that, I believe there is but I'm not going to argue that right now, but if Thor wasn't holding back, then it's inconsistent with his showings with stronger opponents. The plot required Simon to show his stuff and he did, until he got KOd by the hammer. Even though he held his own, I can say Thing held his own against Hulk many times and he's only in the 85 ton range, is he in the same league? According to your logic, yes, if it weren't for Hulk getting stronger he'd have kept up the fight, thing is, Hulk was already stronger than him in the first place and wasn't going all out, they weren't in the same range. Simon is obviously the Thing in this case.....You showed me an inconsistent scan, he tussled with a weaker version of Hulk while Thor stalemated a much stronger one, you act as if there is no difference when there is....I didn't say it had no validity, it just doesn't prove your point, it's an example, a small example, but it's not adequate ... Me saying Simon can physically hang with Thor and Savage Hulk is like saying Geo Force can hang with Superman cus of that one fight they had....Geo landed a few hits, didn't do too bad, but Superman was holding back, and when he decided to end it, he did, just like Thor, maybe Thor didn't do it with strength alone, but the point still stands, he has better strength feats that put him on a higher level, so does Hulk....those two feats don't put him on their level.

How can the feat be inconsistent when Simon fought with another class 100 character in the Hulk ? And even if Professor Hulk is a weaker version... you can not determine how much weaker and by how much less of a version he is anyways... so for all you know Professor Hulk could be in the 100,000,000 ton range ( and that's still better than Superboy )... in any case, it's clear you have lost sight of the entire argument anyways. You specifically said that Wonder Man had no showing that puts him in Thor's class physically... well I gave you two. You gave excuses... weak ones at that. Just because Thing rocks Hulk a few times does not mean he is in Hulk's class... but if Thing rocked Hulk and Hercules both... then you have more justification to believe that the 85 ton class level is a load of crap... because the evidence say otherwise. In any case, your style is like that of a DC base head... as that Csnary Samuel guy is like a Marvel base head... so I guess I should have expected this.

Honestly, I don't care about this discussion anymore because I am tired of this DC / Marvel basehead fanboy BS... it's getting old and I am tired of seeing it.

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#23 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: How did I lose sight of the argument when all I was arguing was that Simon isn't on Thor's level of strength? I gave you several examples of times Thor showed greater strength than that of Wonder Man and you basically ignored it. How am I a DC Fanboy when I gave a legit statement regarding how Wonder Man isn't consistently on Thor's level of strength? First of all that's a bold call, since I try to stay unbiased in these situations, I just provide FACTS, and I have listed feats that are WAY out of Simon's strength range that Thor accomplished, and you still insist they are on the same level because of one fight they had, and that Wonder Man was able to hold off Professor Hulk for a short time? You think that's legit? Well, you do you, it's whatever, I don't know why you're getting salty over it. Calling me a basehead? Well I may as well call you dense, i wouldn't be wrong would I, but you don't see me going about it. If you got a personal problem, tell a mod.

#24 Posted by King Saturn (224171 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: How did I lose sight of the argument when all I was arguing was that Simon isn't on Thor's level of strength? I gave you several examples of times Thor showed greater strength than that of Wonder Man and you basically ignored it. How am I a DC Fanboy when I gave a legit statement regarding how Wonder Man isn't consistently on Thor's level of strength? First of all that's a bold call, since I try to stay unbiased in these situations, I just provide FACTS, and I have listed feats that are WAY out of Simon's strength range that Thor accomplished, and you still insist they are on the same level because of one fight they had, and that Wonder Man was able to hold off Professor Hulk for a short time? You think that's legit? Well, you do you, it's whatever, I don't know why you're getting salty over it. Calling me a basehead? Well I may as well call you dense, i wouldn't be wrong would I, but you don't see me going about it. If you got a personal problem, tell a mod.

Because you are trying to say that because Wonder Man got beat by Thor he is not Physically on par with him or near him Strength wise. You fail to see the fact that Simon was able to "physically stalemate" Thor UNTIL Thor used his Hammer ( which is a Magical Weapon )... besides that I already gave you another example of Wonder Man throwing around a Hulk and fighting with him. You listed No Feats in favor of Thor over Wonder Man physically... all you did was use ABC Logic to say that Wonder Man should not be in Thor's class because Thor has better high end feats... but that's not a strong argument as I have already stated above about the conditions of most of Thor's high end feats. Yes, I think Simon throwing around Hulk is legit... why does it have to be pages and pages of scans of them fighting for it to be valid ? Both Hulk and Simon clashed... they tussled and it was a good showing in favor of Wonder Man. Which essentially makes two decent showings that give us reason to believe Simon could be near Thor's level of physical strength...

As far as me calling you a basehead... I want to clarify, I called your style like a DC basehead... and I don't have personal problems over internet jargon on a message board... I don't need to talk to mods because there is nothing here but fluff discussion since I am not speaking in favor on any winner... just trying to show that Simon is better than you are leading on to.

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#25 Edited by Pierpat (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Wait wait, first of all your attitute is quite rude.And i'm done with that.

Then, thor uses his hammer to win, and i don't call that a physical win.

Like punching until KO=Physical

Using magic hammer to create big blast= Not physical

About the strenght feats, Connor's biggest one was whyle being supported, and we don't know in wich percentage each of them lifted.

So...... wich is his 2°?

Edit, @king_saturn got there before me 'bout the physical job.

#26 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers.