Super-human status Vs Super-human feats

When you have characters who have are classified as superhuman and a character who has super human feats without being classified as superhuman, whose abilities do you say is greater?
 
inspired by this conversation:
 
 

@vuviper

" @Static Shock said:

" @vuviper said:

" @Static Shock:  I don't really know what to do when people stated to be human perform at an obviously metahuman level. human reactions times are .1second yet Cassie reacted in 50 microseconds, thats 2000 times faster. Does that mean she's faster than deathstroke who has 10x the reflexes of a human or does that mean Deathstroke is 20,000 times faster than us? Batman has cracked bazooka proof glass. That means he's at least punching with similar impact force of a close range bullet right? for a .4 kg bullet 2 inches long traveling at 800m/s the impact forve is 5,500,000 newtons equivalent to lifting 1,100,000 pounds or 550 tons. "

Batman has done things that are above peak human (due to his lifetime training), but cracking bazooka proof glass is a little.... out there... I don't think I can except that because he doesn't exhibit feats of that caliber that often. Cassandra's case is different. Her feats are consistent. "

But even if we don't count that he still has strength feats way above what a human should be able to do. Crying open Croc's mouth and breaking his jaw suggest that he is at least strong enough to bicep curl 2 tons. But the point wasn't whether or not to accept the feats, I meant who do you say is stronger when there is someone with supposedly metahuman abilities who have lower feats than one who is supposedly human. Who do you say is stronger? who do you say is faster? "

" @vuviper said:

"But even if we don't count that he still has strength feats way above what a human should be able to do. Crying open Croc's mouth and breaking his jaw suggest that he is at least strong enough to bicep curl 2 tons. But the point wasn't whether or not to accept the feats, I meant who do you say is stronger when there is someone with supposedly metahuman abilities who have lower feats than one who is supposedly human. Who do you say is stronger? who do you say is faster? "

I see what you're getting at. You're comparing Killer Croc's chomping power to that of a real crocodile (4,000 PSI). I've seen Black Panther do the same thing as well. But, regardless of who has a metagene and who doesn't, the feats speak for themselves, in my opinion. Regardless of whether or not there's a metagene present, everyone has a limit to their physical capabilities. We can't logically assume that because someone with a metagene that has metahuman stats that they physically outclass someone who doesn't have a metagene, but have the stats anyway and an extensive background of training behind them. "

  @vuviper said:

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @vuviper said: 

PS about the Bazooka thing, I take is as a MA feat more than a strength feat, same with most of the other ones I listed. I take Batgirl breaking through quarts as an MA feat as well and take Karate Kid breaking through however many kilotons of ice as an MA feat. The fact that in all three instances the difficulty of the tasks was stressed either by narrator, witness, or the person performing the feat, makes me reluctant to just throw it out. If it had been a feat where they just didn't think about it before righting it, it's be a different story, like Bane pushing over that statue. If you still think it implausible (by comic book standards) please let me know because I value your opinion. "

 
 

I haven't done extensive reading on Karate Kid, but many of the things he has achieved sound plausible only because he is knowledgeable in virtually all forms of MA up until the 31st century. People tend to rationalize things based on their own experience and on what they think is humanly possible/impossible to achieve. As a parallel, let me say it is basically why the mind rejects more humanoid looking CGI figures (like the Hulk) as unreal, but tends to find others (Tranformers, p.e.) far more realistic: attention - I do not mean people believe either of them is possible to happen in real life, but they do find it easier to picture something that is not human altogether, rather than picturing the distorted image of a human being. For the same reason, I have a problem picturing people that are presented as human/peak human, at best, doing things so far off their supposed range. It's comic rules, and I accept them, hell, I have even applauded them, but in a battle situation, I have a hard time applying them. So, Karate Kid enjoys the benefit of doubt when he tangles with Kryptonians, because people think "who knows, if someone knows every form of MA from present, to 10 centuries in the future, MA knowledge may have progressed to a point were it will allow a normal human to be realistically capable of such feats" and go along with it. But, Batman, or Batgirl don't have that privilege. That benefit, if you will. Based on what we've seen, Goblin and Batman aren't much different, physically. With Batman's vastly superior edge in skill, Bruce should take it. And then you realise one is a normal human, and the other is Spider-man level in almost every aspect, and with an even superior healing factor, and you are like, "What is going on?"
 
Excuse the long post.

"

I might be more inclined to accept superhuman feats as being attributed to MA skills than you not because I'm actually very familiar with MA, but I've seen much fiction that has MA as the explanation for seemingly superhuman abilities. Especially fiction centered around Ninjas and what not. If a Ninja can do all these crazy things, what would happen if you had a ninja that mastered ALL(terrestrial) MA (ie Batman). Which is just as impossible as KK's master of everything in that century, if not moreso because we don't know what type of technological, health science, and neurological  advances we would have by then. I think it comes from people seeing MA's in real life doing things they never could like breaking multiple concrete slabs with their head, and then taking it to the next level with ninja's and such, and then going beyond that with Batman and Batgirl who are much superior to ninjas, and then even further once you get to Karate Kid. Of course I don't really believe (even if it was possible to be a master of all martial arts) that you'd be able to the things Batman does, but I find them feasible by comic book standards.  I actually made a thread about that here, that no one replied to. What to do when one person has "superhuman status" while the other one has "superhuman feats" Deathstroke is said to have the strength of 10 men, do I assume he's stronger any human? Even if that human has more impressive feats? "

I think you need to explain a little.....

hes basically saying which is more important, 
 
Super human strength with no feats OR human strength with superhuman feats, like how Batman ripped Killer Croc's mouth
i would say Superhuman feats, because thats how we roll in comicvine, we generally ask for scans and actual strength feats instead of speculation or hearsay

Well I like verifiable facts. Often a well defined powerset makes for a good character. I like characters to be consistent and it's annoying to me when one writer comes along and gives a character a feat under extreme duress and everyone clings to it on battle forums. Like Cyclops taking off his visor, we've all seen that one scan like 500 times and theres way more examples. Or characters who have established weaknesses have them removed when a new writer takes over etc.
 
But having said that some variety is really what makes the battle forums interesting and it is in character for certain characters to pull things out of the bag to take down a nemesis and comics would be boring without this kind of struggle.

well its just more convenient and more believable when the strength of the character isn't abstract, saying that he is 10x stronger then man is less impressive then saying that hes a man and pulling off something that MAKES him stronger then man, such as ripping killer croc's mouth open (2-ton force to batman's shoulders and arms)

" Well I like verifiable facts. Often a well defined powerset makes for a good character. I like characters to be consistent and it's annoying to me when one writer comes along and gives a character a feat under extreme duress and everyone clings to it on battle forums. Like Cyclops taking off his visor, we've all seen that one scan like 500 times and theres way more examples. Or characters who have established weaknesses have them removed when a new writer takes over etc. But having said that some variety is really what makes the battle forums interesting and it is in character for certain characters to pull things out of the bag to take down a nemesis and comics would be boring without this kind of struggle. "

" Well I like verifiable facts. Often a well defined powerset makes for a good character. I like characters to be consistent and it's annoying to me when one writer comes along and gives a character a feat under extreme duress and everyone clings to it on battle forums. Like Cyclops taking off his visor, we've all seen that one scan like 500 times and theres way more examples. Or characters who have established weaknesses have them removed when a new writer takes over etc. But having said that some variety is really what makes the battle forums interesting and it is in character for certain characters to pull things out of the bag to take down a nemesis and comics would be boring without this kind of struggle. "

well Cassandra Cain, who I assume you mean by Cassie, has a very good reason for being 'fast'. She's actually predicting rather than reacting so she doesn't need to have enhanced reflexes to be faster than the norm.

" @Dane said:

" Well I like verifiable facts. Often a well defined powerset makes for a good character. I like characters to be consistent and it's annoying to me when one writer comes along and gives a character a feat under extreme duress and everyone clings to it on battle forums. Like Cyclops taking off his visor, we've all seen that one scan like 500 times and theres way more examples. Or characters who have established weaknesses have them removed when a new writer takes over etc. But having said that some variety is really what makes the battle forums interesting and it is in character for certain characters to pull things out of the bag to take down a nemesis and comics would be boring without this kind of struggle. "

we're talking about people who have more consistently superhuman feats, for example Cassie and her speed. and people who have been stated to have enhanced reflexes/speed but don't have any feats that top cassies. "

" @Dane:@Morpheus_:  In addition to being able to predict opponents she has bullet dodging feats that put her above all other bullet dodgers. Most street levelers dodge the aim, while Cassie can dodge a high speed bullet after it's fire. Now batman has done this too, but Cassie has waited till the bullet was inches from her head before she even began to move and still was able to dodge it.

"

" @Morpheus_:lol, it's an impressive one. "

New 52 Batman has feats that put him in the 1-1.5 ton category. Just look at his current respect and feat threads. The simple fact is that while every other non-powered street leveler is limited to peak human feats at an idealized level, the entire Bat family sport feats that are several times greater.

Too many comers are dodging it. And too many readers are willing to just look the other way.

Both.