Strongest Reality Warper?

@lowlaville said:

Eh but I am not trying to convince you heh heh I don't mind what other people believe ^_^ - I enjoy talking though.

I don't see the only alternative to Haruka being incompetency (well in a relative sense), there are lots of fictional characters with abilities that are defined as countering something or being something but we know not to take them as an absolute because again fiction. Now to me and my skeptical self, if the creator/writer of Haruka explained that they were superior to Beyonder then that would be one thing. One thing I know personally very well is Jim Shooter and his bizarre ideas about characters and character power. It was so bizarre that other writers thought the Beyonder character was silly and retconned him. Its what's lead to people decades later discussing the character because Zee Powa when they are far more interesting characters that don't get talked about because their creator was EIC or obsessed with power heh heh.

Beyonder was said to have been everything outside the Marvel Universe, as far as definitions go, everything includes everything, just naturally Marvel doesn't necessarily have the credibility or more importantly legal status to actually enforce such a claim. That and its a bit of a paradox as far as definitions of what is inside and outside a universe. Beyonder in other words transcends fiction and becomes a meta character. Multiverse? Jim Shooter if he was crazy enough could physically burn the pages other characters appear in. So this is where things get silly because then its not so much about the characters fighting but creators fighting. So you end up comparing writers authority, credibility and all that. Writers pose way more of a thread than any character can, look at Brian Michael Bendis for example ^__^

portrayal as in physical portrayal?

Fantastic Four #511 (jack kirby):

Sensation spiderman #40 (definitely not jack kirby):

That's one of the main reasons I don't fall into to the "omnipotent" statement crap. The term is thrown around more then Drew Brees on NFL Sunday, several characters have been called "omnipotent" and they're nowhere near it.

@rolldestroyer: Well first I didn't mean physical portrayal no, but I can see how it might have seemed that way so I apologize. ^_^ Secondly are you using you own eye as a visual guide or some writer source? People can look different at different stages of their lives yes? Jack Kirby looked a lot thinner near the end of his life, than the earlier years. That and artists styles are different too, Mike Wieringo and Mark Waid purposefully wanted Kirby from a specific era and not too photo realistic, because it was meant to be more of an insider thing but Clayton Crain generally has a lot more of a gritty style and more realistic/realism. Not that I personally know, I just vaguely remember some interview from the Back in Black TPB that talked a bit about that character (the scan you posted) and some Handbook editor talk at Marvel and CBR. So when you definitely say not Jack Kirby what basis are you using? I don't know either way since I can only vaguely recall references but no longer have them.

Either way I speak of references to The One Above All and Jack Kirby being much more than physical portrayal and not for the characters entire history either. Technically speaking there isn't really anything but fan speculation linking the character appearances together, its why there is no TOAA page in the OHotMU, only references to it here and there in some characters profiles.

*sighs* Thanks for actually reading what my post said before getting needlessly defensive, as it was about Franklin Richards and not Alien X. Sorry if my wording offended you for some reason. And I do watch Ben 10 and know what he is and he hasn't done much to tell me he has a good chance against Beyonder, thank you very much. Assumptions are pretty fun aren't they bud? Whatever, like you said, good day.

As for topic, there really isn't much of a debate if we're going using the omnipotent term back and forth.

@blazinghell On the contrary, you're not seeing what I'm saying. Why do you keep bringing up the retcon? We're debating Beyonder's feats before Secret Wars 2 ended. Doom is FAR from being street leveler. Hell he's one of the best prep masters in the Marvel Universe. Don't try and lowball him. He absorbed Beyonder's power using tech Beyonder created, and that whole encounter quite frankly was either PIS or he let himself get drained. It wouldn't make sense for a being that makes all of the Marvel abstracts look like ants to not know Doom was gonna try something like that but it doesn't really matter as Mr. M has been depowered and outsmarted by many people. Beyonder didn't struggle with MM. They fought and he overpowered. Which is actually irrelevant as PR MM would destroy Mr. M as well. Mr. M has only warped the reality of the DC universe IIRC. When has he ever done anything multiversal or on the level of the PR Beyonder? Mr. M has never defeated an unbound Spectre. The imps aren't as powerful as you think they are and I don't think I can get it through your head so I'll just agree to disagree...

@blazinghell One thing I'm going to point out is that you haven't provided one shred of evidence to support your claims. If you know Mr. M has done all of this like defeating the Spectre and recreating the DC multiverse that makes the Beyonder look like nothing then surely you can provide some scans showing so? If you don't understand that an avatar limits the power of the Spectre..then you really need to get your facts straight.

And again..I'll agree to disagree seeing as we're not gonna sway each other's beliefs.

anodites are nowhere near close to be as powerful as celestsapiens, they are nigh-omnipotent they can barely warp reality at a small scale, while alien x created a copy of the whole universe

Only his fight with Celestials were retconned, alongside his interaction with the Phoenix.

Him killed death, Beyonderbayne, a machine made with a fraction of Beyonder's power being more powerful than Eternity. Living Tribunal not being able to stop him are all canon till date.

Let me know if you are interested i can upload recent bio that still collaborate Beyonder feat being canon, long after his supposedly retcon.

How is that any difference from Zatanna from Earth Prime depowering Mxy. At least Dr. Doom couldnt control his powers.

And there is a good bit context before Dr. Doom depowers Beyonder:

1. That was the first time Beyonder was interacting with being other than himself, and the first time he even knew there were other beings out there.

2. Before stealing Beyonder power Dr. Doom went on to actually steal Galactus power + entire energy from Galactus ship. So thats not even remotely close to being street level. Also give Dr. Doom with power up or anything has rather handily beaten Iron Man (75 tonner), Thing (100 Tonner) and Hulk (Class 100 +), i fail to see how exactly he would be consider "almost street level".

Thats a very bad comparision.

Dormammu reshaped entire reality , including past present and future with power of Eternity alone.

Beyonder as a cosmic cube created his own universe.

Beyonder vs Molecule man after their retcon as a cosmic cube being , have affected reality on a trans-multiversal scale.

All of them far beyond Living Tribunal who was shaking in his boots, against a depowered Beyonder..

Could you show me 1 instance where Mxy, other than the non canon World Funniest, where he has shown to perform even at multiversal level?

And the death thing that you keep low-balling, Death during Secret War was written as a multiversal entity. Death even when written as a universe entity destroyed an entire universe alongside Galactus Engine and crippled Many Angled Ones. The Galactus Engine itself was single handedly beating a group of Celestials + Primodial Gods + Galactus.

I could just as easily post a scan of 4 Celestials, collectively creating an entire multiverse..

If thats still not enough, Beyonder had to greatly limited himself just so he can fit into out reality (given him or his multiverse was billions times bigger than ours)

You can either take that as a comedy relief, or take that as an insanely high end feat.

BTW Juggernaut, Deadpool, and She-Hulk has done exactly that, scaring the crap out of writers.

Sentry went even further, he telepathically compelled Paul Jenkins to writer stories on him.

And just for lol an alternate reality Thanos (called Thermos), with infinity gauntlet, defeated the embodiment of writer himself in his universe.

Are you really going to tell me, you would consider them more powerful than Pre Retcon Beyonder and Living Tribunal.

Cosmic Cubes themselves have broken the forth wall just fine, bringing fictional character within the comic book to life.

Actually I did read your post. And I replied accordingly. I don't go defensive(and offensive) for no reason.

Why is Mxy even on this debate table lol We know well the 5th dimensional creatures are dead OP. And I didn't place him to debate.. my intention when posting this was more of a killoff. Creatures needed to dominate the entire competition. Its more of a 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 1 type of deal. You don't pick two of the strongest. You pick the one who is most likely to come out on top. This is exactly why I placed beings capable of at least being defeated.

Ok, remain fixated on that and hurl more insults as a mean to get some sort of "payback" at me if you want to, couldn't care less really. I'm done.

Who do you personally believe will win this?

I don't really know. All of them are arguably strong. Alien X is universal level. Anodites are strong, they can meddle with reality. Franklin and PRB are strong. Haruka is human, but her power is on par with the rest of the lot..

Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>> Haruka Kaminogi >>>> Alien X >>>> Franklin Richards (don't know about the rest)

why cant be two omnipotent in ben 10 univarce

Pre-retcon Beyonder.

the most powerful reality warper who isn't real omnipotent is lucifer

@loseup: Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

TOAA is everything on existence. Everything floats around him. He's Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent in Marvel universe. It can do anything impossible, create a number lower than zero, create a number bigger than infinity, defie any paradox etc.

The Beyonder is not the most powerful Reality warper because he was Ultipotent.

An Unipotente being is one who is Omnipotent, whomever he doesn't psoses Omniscience or Omnipresence, and therefore beyonder lacks the imagination to do anything.

lucifer at most powerful is basically the smartest guy in and out of existence who can reality warp without limits

In order to be the most smart guy in existence you need to be Omniscient. Which means that you are All-Knowning. Morningstar is far from being Omniscient, but we cannoy dennie that he is powerful.

yeah, i mean excluding beings like toaa, presence, mom