Street SF: Skit (Daisuke) vs CBFTW (Batman)

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sirfizzwhizz

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Welcome to the semi finals of the big leagues for the best Street Leveler. Rules are simple, two men enter, one man leaves. All fights are to the Death, KO, or Incap. All characters have what is considered standard gear to them. Winners move on to the next round to earn respect and entertain the masses who wish to learn more about them. Without further ado here are today's contestants.

The sharp shooting master effortlessly cleared his competition so far, but now may face a obstacle too big for this career criminal. Jigen Daisuke! @skit

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Batman has face his share of shooters in his time, but till this one be the one to finish him? In this dark brooding corner is the on and only Arkham Batman! @captain_batman_ftw

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Battle here starting 100 feet apart from the middle.

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sirfizzwhizz

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captain_batman_FTW

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@skit Can you start? I don't know much about this Daisuke guy.

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TheNaughtyTitan

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T4V and good luck

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captain_batman_FTW

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Skit

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@thenaughtytitan said:

T4V and good luck

Of course and thanks

@captain_batman_ftw A bit busy at the moment, so I'm just going to copy over my bio/intro from the previous matches. I might edit in a plan in a bit, but don't wait for me if it isn't.

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Jigen's primary history is largely unknown outside of how he got his gun, but it realistically doesn't matter because what's important is his amazing capability with a gun. Able to preform a quick drawn faster than normal and capable of hitting his targets with almost impossible accuracy. Due to this he's since become world renowned partner in crime to lupin, over the years he's aided him in even the largest of heists. He doesn't have any sort of powers outside of his aim, but he is somewhat versed in h2h combat and has used various guns over the years . This includes everything from his signature .357 magnum, all the way up to heavy weapons like an anti tank rifle.

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He also happens to be a chain smoking killer who oddly get's referenced/makes cameos in kids shows. Now to give you a rough idea as to what he's capable of, here's a amv that's surprisingly filled with feats and not so bad music.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@skit:

Jigen's primary history is largely unknown outside of how he got his gun, but it realistically doesn't matter because what's important is his amazing capability with a gun. Able to preform a quick drawn faster than normal and capable of hitting his targets with almost impossible accuracy. Due to this he's since become world renowned partner in crime to lupin, over the years he's aided him in even the largest of heists. He doesn't have any sort of powers outside of his aim, but he is somewhat versed in h2h combat and has used various guns over the years . This includes everything from his signature .357 magnum, all the way up to heavy weapons like an anti tank rifle.

This is good and all, but from what was shown in the video you posted, Daisuke shouldn't be too much of a problem for Arkham Batman. Batman has gone up against someone who is just as accurate and fast as Daisuke (arguably better), namely Deadshot. Deadshot has just as good aim as Daisuke, which this instance proves so:

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Honestly, this feat performed by Deadshot shows that Deadshot is faster on the draw and has better accuracy than Daisuke. I can continue to show Deadshot's abilities, but this alone is already good enough to say that Deadshot is a better shot by Daisuke. Against Deadshot, Batman did this:

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He was dancing around bullets from someone as accurate and fast as Deadshot, so in all honesty, Daisuke will have a hard time tagging Batman (which I doubt will happen at the start of the battle, nor do I think that it will happen further into the battle), but even if Daisuke tags Batman, then it won't be a problem, because Batman's suit can take a bullet or two (which I doubt he can even tag Batman with considering that he dodged bullets from Deadshot who had a machine gun and is more accurate than Daisuke), which is shown when Joker shot Batman three times:

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Batman's armour wasn't damaged. I can post the video itself if you want to, so you can see it for yourself.

So to sum it up with this section of my post: Daisuke won't be capable of tagging Batman with bullets, because a) bullets from magnums travels significantly slower than bullets from machine guns (which Batman dodged, and b) Batman has dodged bullets from someone who is faster on the draw and more accurate than Daisuke.

The Battle!

As for how the battle actually will go:

The battle always favours the competitor with a great tactical and strategical mind. Batman's always cautious when he faces opponents with firearms, such as he did against Deadshot in their fight, in Batman Arkham City:

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Batman will use cover to cover and try to use stealth on Daisuke, which is how the battle will go, because Daisuke can't tag what he can't see, and Batman will be hiding all over the place. But even if Daisuke detects Batman, then that won't be a problem, either, because Batman can just throw a smoke bomb and quickly take out Daisuke while to smoke is active:

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Summary

So to sum it up:

  • Daisuke won't be capable of tagging Batman, because he can't tag someone who may be hiding behind him.
  • Even if Daisuke detects Batman, there's nothing Daisuke can do to Batman, because a smoke bomb will be tossed by Batman and then sh*t will happen to Daisuke, and before he knows anything about it; he will be in a hospital eating with a straw.

There's really nothing Daisuke can do against Batman.

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Skit

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@captain_batman_ftw:

Deadshot has just as good aim as Daisuke, which this instance proves so

I said the video was a rough idea, that was hardly him at his best. Anyways, no Deadshot is not a better shot. First off, the gif doesn't even make sense. Bullets don't just go through 2 people and ricochet off of what looks like a riot shield then go through 2 more people and a gun, but that's just me not picking. Anyway, on to actual reasons why Jigens superior aim wise. The helicopter feat at 48 second mark was a better feat, especially in relation to the speed due to the fact he was in the midst of doing a front flip of a building and grabbing the side. Deadshot shoots people, Jigen shoots off people's Toupée, gives a haircut and takes off a dudes glasses without harming them at the 1 minute mark. Deadshot hit's a bullseye, Jigen shoots out the entire outline of the target and while looking at a picture of it instead

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Honestly, this feat performed by Deadshot shows that Deadshot is faster

How does shooting a single bullet show that he's faster? Also he's not, even in the video I showed you at 30 a rocket is fired at him. Before it can reach him from a short distance, he throws away his gun, then grabs his own and dismantles it. Not to mention he's shot down bullets

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Not to mention he does everything in a third of a second, skip to 5:14(warning nsfw a few seconds before and after)

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Against Deadshot, Batman did this:

Not sure how this is relevant unless your using a composite version of batman. Assault on Arkham isn't in anyway connected to the games.

He was dancing around bullets from someone as accurate and fast as Deadshot, so in all honesty,

I wouldn't exactly call sneaking up on him and attacking him from behind as dancing. Actually any time Deadshot sees Batman he shoots him without batman ever dodging it.

Daisuke will have a hard time tagging Batman (which I doubt will happen at the start of the battle, nor do I think that it will happen further into the battle)

He's stalemated Goemon multiple times, whose can casually dodge and chop up bullets

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but even if Daisuke tags Batman, then it won't be a problem, because Batman's suit can take a bullet or two (which I doubt he can even tag Batman with considering that he dodged bullets from Deadshot who had a machine gun and is more accurate than Daisuke), which is shown when Joker shot Batman three times:

Batman's armour wasn't damaged. I can post the video itself if you want to, so you can see it for yourself.

A run of the mill handgun, all of Jigen's guns have more firepower. Just his magnum compared to what Joker shot him with, which used a 9mm

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The tiny dent was from the 9mm, the large hole is from the magnum
The tiny dent was from the 9mm, the large hole is from the magnum

Also I'm calling bs

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Same exact gun, from a further distance and through glass knocks Batman on his ass and damaged his suit

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This is a much more battle hardened batman and the fact that it takes place years after Origin, his suit should have improved not gotten worse. The lack damage can also be chalked up to the fact the game(origins) got rushed(based off bugs and WB even admitting this) and developers didn't think it was worth remaking the suit just for the getting shot. It doesn't even make sense either as Batman get's hurt every other time he get's shot by goons or deadshot even in origins.

So to sum it up with this section of my post: Daisuke won't be capable of tagging Batman with bullets, because a) bullets from magnums travels significantly slower than bullets from machine guns

He doesn't dodge bullets after they're fired so this is irrelevant. Also the 2nd bullet gif deals with that as the gun of the guy he was facing was made for quick drawing being lighter and using bullets that traveled faster.

Batman will use cover to cover and try to use stealth on Daisuke, which is how the battle will go, because Daisuke can't tag what he can't see, and Batman will be hiding all over the place.

He's dealt with assassins numerous times in the past, even in the first video in this post at 7:05

But even if Daisuke detects Batman, then that won't be a problem, either, because Batman can just throw a smoke bomb and quickly take out Daisuke while to smoke is active:

He's a highly mobile and agile guy, he's capable of getting out of the smoked area. Also Jigen's going to notice Batman in broad daylight in a desert area, especially if he's throwing a smoke bomb. It'll also be way quicker for Jigen to shoot him while he's doing this.

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Jestersmiles

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@skit: Sorry to interrupt but I love that Pistolero video it fits him to a tee :).

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TheNaughtyTitan

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Fun debate so far, keep up the good work guys.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@skit:

I said the video was a rough idea, that was hardly him at his best. Anyways, no Deadshot is not a better shot. First off, the gif doesn't even make sense. Bullets don't just go through 2 people and ricochet off of what looks like a riot shield then go through 2 more people and a gun, but that's just me not picking.

Good for Daisuke, then. Bullets don't go through multiple people in real life. All kinds of stuff happens in fiction, and if the writer deems it, then that's how it is, regardless of your opinion.

Anyway, on to actual reasons why Jigens superior aim wise. The helicopter feat at 48 second mark was a better feat, especially in relation to the speed due to the fact he was in the midst of doing a front flip of a building and grabbing the side.

Shooting a helicopter down doesn't make his aim better, because he only needs to worry about one spot on the chopper, because he'd need to hit one critical spot in order to put down the chopper. Deadshot on the other hand; Deadshot shot instantly as he turned around and he hit all the correct angles in order to take out 4-5 guys with one bullet. What feats sounds better for accuracy? Taking out something by putting down its pillar, or someone who can take out 4-5 men with one bullet less than half a second and at the same time needing to worry about the angles of said shot? Certainly the one with putting down 4-5 people with one shot less than half a second by bouncing the bullet of the walls.

Deadshot shoots people, Jigen shoots off people's Toupée, gives a haircut and takes off a dudes glasses without harming them at the 1 minute mark. Deadshot hit's a bullseye, Jigen shoots out the entire outline of the target and while looking at a picture of it instead

Deadshot takes out 4-5 guys with one bullet less than half a second by bouncing the bullet of off a freaking riot shield. Daisuke shot out the entire outline of the bullseye by looking at a picture? That's... really nothing impressive if you're gonna compare him to Deadshot, because Deadshot hit a bullseye with a dart by making it bounce off the walls and bottles:

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Right after that^^, Deadshot hit bullseye without looking. That's most certainly better than Daisuke's aim.

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How does shooting a single bullet show that he's faster?

It makes him faster, because he hit 4-5 men with one bullet instantly as he turned around and at the same time, Deadshot needed to hit the perfect angles in order to make a shot like that.

Also he's not, even in the video I showed you at 30 a rocket is fired at him. Before it can reach him from a short distance, he throws away his gun, then grabs his own and dismantles it. Not to mention he's shot down bullets

The missile on is impressive, but it still had a conciderable distance; from what it looked like, there was at least a 150 metres distance between Daisuke's and the other men's boat.

Can you post the full video of the two gifs you posted? Daisuke didn't shoot the bullets out of the air after it was fired, in both of the scans you showed, Daisuke and his opponents shot at the same time, from what it seemed like. That's why I'm asking if you can post the full videos so we can analyze it a little more clearly.

Not sure how this is relevant unless your using a composite version of batman. Assault on Arkham isn't in anyway connected to the games.

LMAO! Assault on Arkham is canon to the Arkham games and the directors of the movie confirmed that. Hell, the designs of the characters were exactly the same, and I'd rather take the word of the creators rather than yours. Tell me, how did you come to the conclusion of Assault on Arkham not being in the Arkhamverse? I'm interested in hearing that.

I wouldn't exactly call sneaking up on him and attacking him from behind as dancing. Actually any time Deadshot sees Batman he shoots him without batman ever dodging it.

What? Batman didn't dance around the bullets fired from Deadshot (bullets much faster than Daisuke's, mind you) in the instance I showed? Did you actually bother to see the gif? Whatever, I can post it again for you. Here:

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Deadshot, in the Arkham series, has never tagged Batman.

He's stalemated Goemon multiple times, whose can casually dodge and chop up bullets

Cool, but I don't see how that will help him against someone he can't see. There's a lot of cover in the COD 4 map, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion of the battle taking place in a desert.

A run of the mill handgun, all of Jigen's guns have more firepower. Just his magnum compared to what Joker shot him with, which used a 9mm

This won't help Daisuke at all, because he's not even going to see Batman, and Batman isn't just going to come out and try to take him out just like that. Batman's going to be cautious - like all the other times - and take him out when Daisuke's not watching.

Also I'm calling bs

No offense, but this is just ignorant. You're calling it BS when you haven't even analyzed the instance properly. The bullet Two-Face shot easily penetrated through bullet-proof glass, so thanks for actually helping my case rather than your own :)

This is a much more battle hardened batman and the fact that it takes place years after Origin, his suit should have improved not gotten worse. The lack damage can also be chalked up to the fact the game(origins) got rushed(based off bugs and WB even admitting this) and developers didn't think it was worth remaking the suit just for the getting shot. It doesn't even make sense either as Batman get's hurt every other time he get's shot by goons or deadshot even in origins.

The bullet Two-Face shot penetrated through bullet-proof glass as if the glass wasn't even there, so don't try to make up some BS about Batman's suit being inconsistent. While we're at it; Batman's suit is composed of some kind of nano-tech. The upgrade menu in Arkham Asylum confirms this and the suit in Arkham City is the same one Batman used in Arkham Asylum.

Being hurt by the impact of the bullet is different from the bullet penetrating the armour. The piercing force of the bullet hurt Batman's own stomach (not very much), but the bullet didn't damage the armour.

He doesn't dodge bullets after they're fired so this is irrelevant. Also the 2nd bullet gif deals with that as the gun of the guy he was facing was made for quick drawing being lighter and using bullets that traveled faster.

Arkham Batman has dodged bullets plenty of times in the tie-ins and he dodged bullets from Deadshot. The gif I posted of Deadshot's aim at the start is enough to say that Batman dodged the bullets that Deadshot fired in Assault on Arkham. I can post another scan of Batman dodging a bullet shot by Deadshot from one of the tie-ins, but that isn't really needed, because the Assault on Arkham instance is enough to suffice.

He's dealt with assassins numerous times in the past, even in the first video in this post at 7:05

What kind of assassins? Do those assassins have good stealth feats? Are they as good as Batman? I need some evidence that shows that they aren't just some random fodders.

He's a highly mobile and agile guy, he's capable of getting out of the smoked area. Also Jigen's going to notice Batman in broad daylight in a desert area, especially if he's throwing a smoke bomb. It'll also be way quicker for Jigen to shoot him while he's doing this.

Once again, there's plenty of buildings the place where this fight takes place at. Also, I forgot to mention that while the smoke is active, Batman disarms Daisuke of his gun with his batclaw. While the batclaw is grappled onto Daisuke's gun, Batman quickly moves in and takes out Daisuke as this gif shows that he can do it:

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It will seem like this within the smoke:

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Summary

There's a lot of cover in this place, and Batman will use that to his advantage. While Daisuke is wondering where Batman is, Batman tosses a smoke bomb at the location of Daisuke and then disarms Daisuke of his gun, then Batman quickly leaps over to Daisuke (or just use the batclaw to drag Daisuke over to him) and takes him out.

Also, Batman will know where Daisuke is at all times, whereas Daisuke won't know where Batman is, because Batman got something called Detective Vision. It gives Batman the knowledge of where Daisuke is and what he has. Here's how it works:

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Skit

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@captain_batman_ftw:

Good for Daisuke, then. Bullets don't go through multiple people in real life. All kinds of stuff happens in fiction, and if the writer deems it, then that's how it is, regardless of your opinion.

I did say I was nit picking

Shooting a helicopter down doesn't make his aim better, because he only needs to worry about one spot on the chopper, because he'd need to hit one critical spot in order to put down the chopper. Deadshot on the other hand; Deadshot shot instantly as he turned around and he hit all the correct angles in order to take out 4-5 guys with one bullet.

All the right angles? They where conveniently all in a v shape with only the middle guy in the group having riot shield. The situation could not be set up more perfectly for a ricochet. He was also withing a few feet of them and didn't land a kill shot any of the one's besides the first.

What feats sounds better for accuracy? Taking out something by putting down its pillar

What? Do you mean when when he shot down the helicopter? It was completely stationary and he wasn't even doing anything at the same time. Also the blades are making several full rotations per second, the chances of it not hitting one is less likely. He also didn't shoot it until 5 seconds of hovering.

, or someone who can take out 4-5 men with one bullet less than half a second and at the same time needing to worry about the angles of said shot? Certainly the one with putting down 4-5 people with one shot less than half a second by bouncing the bullet of the walls.

Jigen didn't take a second to aim either and with a lot more going on in his. Also prove it was "less than half a second". Not that it matters since that's a substantial amount longer than .3 of a second

Deadshot takes out 4-5 guys with one bullet less than half a second by bouncing the bullet of off a freaking riot shield. Daisuke shot out the entire outline of the bullseye by looking at a picture? That's... really nothing impressive if you're gonna compare him to Deadshot, because Deadshot hit a bullseye with a dart by making it bounce off the walls and bottles:

No discrediting the feat or anything, by ricocheting with a dark is less impressive than with a bullet.

Right after that^^, Deadshot hit bullseye without looking. That's most certainly better than Daisuke's aim.

Despite having been around for 15+ years longer than Jigen, he has yet to shoot down a bullet.

It makes him faster, because he hit 4-5 men with one bullet instantly as he turned around and at the same time, Deadshot needed to hit the perfect angles in order to make a shot like that.

I don't see how that's faster. A time frame wasn't given and it wasn't like there something to gauge it by(like the rocket) or even that he was moving any faster than a normal person like this

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Can you post the full video of the two gifs you posted? Daisuke didn't shoot the bullets out of the air after it was fired, in both of the scans you showed, Daisuke and his opponents shot at the same time, from what it seemed like. That's why I'm asking if you can post the full videos so we can analyze it a little more clearly.

Here you go. He did though, it shows both of the other people firing before he does. The first one actually takes places at the beginning of the video

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2nd takes place at 19:35, he mentions the lighter gun and faster bullet thing too, but if you need more in depth I can post a another video about that. It's also worth noting that he had his gun on his back so he had to go an even further distance for the draw than the other guy

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Tell me, how did you come to the conclusion of Assault on Arkham not being in the Arkhamverse? I'm interested in hearing that.

Well first off, Deadshot's race different. He was clearly hispanic in AoA, yet white in the games

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Not to mention that the suicide squad only got a brief mention and only in Origins, there where a lot of characters who never appeared in the games and honestly there really wasn't a lot to think it was since there wasn't any mention of the events in the games or vice versa.

What? Batman didn't dance around the bullets fired from Deadshot (bullets much faster than Daisuke's, mind you) in the instance I showed? Did you actually bother to see the gif? Whatever, I can post it again for you. Here:

I was under the belief that it wasn't in anyway connected at the time(your the person I've ever heard mention it as being a part). Anyways, I kinda feel like he was pulling his shots like he does in the comics. There's no reason he couldn't hit Batman when he's grappling, unless you really think he's that bad a shot. Also that gif imply's Deadshot can't even hit batman simply because he's moving.

Deadshot, in the Arkham series, has never tagged Batman.

Yet, if you go out out of cover during one of the fights with him, he insta kills Batman.

One thing I should add. While I'll admit Deadshot is better than this, this is still something that happened.

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Cool, but I don't see how that will help him against someone he can't see. There's a lot of cover in the COD 4 map, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion of the battle taking place in a desert.

You said he couldn't tag Batman, yet he's able to keep somebody substantially faster at bay and even tag him.

The bullet Two-Face shot penetrated through bullet-proof glass

Proof it was bullet proof, because it made the similiar damage that's done to normal glass. Also the bullet proof glass when shot doesn't look like that as I'll show in the video below.

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as if the glass wasn't even there, so don't try to make up some BS about Batman's suit being inconsistent. While we're at it; Batman's suit is composed of some kind of nano-tech. The upgrade menu in Arkham Asylum confirms this and the suit in Arkham City is the same one Batman used in Arkham Asylum.

Also what kind of ammo do you suppose he was using, because even armor piercing rounds do that to Bullet proof glass.

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Being hurt by the impact of the bullet is different from the bullet penetrating the armour. The piercing force of the bullet hurt Batman's own stomach (not very much), but the bullet didn't damage the armour.

Like I said, game wasn't even finished when it was released.

Arkham Batman has dodged bullets plenty of times in the tie-ins and he dodged bullets from Deadshot. The gif I posted of Deadshot's aim at the start is enough to say that Batman dodged the bullets that Deadshot fired in Assault on Arkham. I can post another scan of Batman dodging a bullet shot by Deadshot from one of the tie-ins, but that isn't really needed, because the Assault on Arkham instance is enough to suffice.

The point is that he's not dodging bullets after they have been fired, which makes the actual speed of the bullet completely irrelevant. Show me an instance where he has and I'll concede this point, but until then.

What kind of assassins? Do those assassins have good stealth feats? Are they as good as Batman? I need some evidence that shows that they aren't just some random fodders.

For the most part it's the normal herp derp super duper world famous assassins, though a few in the past have actually been competent and nearly killed Goemon(despite being very superhuman and having a sword that can cut through anything, the feat from the video was pretty meh by his standards) and Jigen/Lupin. The guy in the second video was considered one of the best assassins in the world and was viewed as the best shot(this was when Jigen in his early years). He single nearly killed Lupin, Jigen and Fujiko(having to be saved) and made Jigen have to stage his own death in order to not die. The guy was also using device that basically granted him borderline limited pre cog through cameras(explained at 13:30). Then there's been some ninja's in the past like in plot of the fuma clan(I can't find it on youtube right now, I'll edit it in if i do) and that sort of stuff where the assassins are actually stealthy.

Once again, there's plenty of buildings the place where this fight takes place at. Also, I forgot to mention that while the smoke is active, Batman disarms Daisuke of his gun with his batclaw. While the batclaw is grappled onto Daisuke's gun, Batman quickly moves in and takes out Daisuke as this gif shows that he can do it:

He has more than one gun, also he's fast enough to react to the batclaw.

There's a lot of cover in this place, and Batman will use that to his advantage. While Daisuke is wondering where Batman is, Batman tosses a smoke bomb at the location of Daisuke and then disarms Daisuke of his gun, then Batman quickly leaps over to Daisuke (or just use the batclaw to drag Daisuke over to him) and takes him out.

It's as you said, Batman's more cautious and isn't going to be as confrontational when he's up against somebody he doesn't know. Jigen doesn't care, the second that he notices something up(like the smoke pelets flying through the air). It's also going to take some time for the smoke to actually come out and it will only cover so much area. Jigen's a mobile guy like i said, he's not going to stand still while this is going on.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@skit:

All the right angles? They where conveniently all in a v shape with only the middle guy in the group having riot shield. The situation could not be set up more perfectly for a ricochet. He was also withing a few feet of them and didn't land a kill shot any of the one's besides the first.

Deadshot's aim out of the way (because the debate is leaning more towards it, rather than Batman vs Daisuke), because what I've been trying to say all along is that Deadshot is also at least as accurate as Daisuke (still stand by him being more accurate, but it's becoming irrelevant to debate that right now) and on the same level. He never misses and if someone like Deadshot can't tag Batman, then nor will someone like Daisuke. Why? Because Deadshot not being able to tag Batman is due to the fact that Batman is dodging the bullets.

In conclusion: Batman dodges bullets (far faster than Daisuke's), which means that Daisuke's gun won't be a problem.

What? Do you mean when when he shot down the helicopter? It was completely stationary and he wasn't even doing anything at the same time. Also the blades are making several full rotations per second, the chances of it not hitting one is less likely. He also didn't shoot it until 5 seconds of hovering.

I meant pillar in a metaphorical way. Daisuke most likely hit a critical spot on the chopper, because there's no way a single bullet from a magnum can drop a chopper.

Jigen didn't take a second to aim either and with a lot more going on in his. Also prove it was "less than half a second". Not that it matters since that's a substantial amount longer than .3 of a second

It was at least less than half a second, because he shot instantly as he turned around. It's good enough to say that Batman dodges bullets, thus disabling Daisuke's main weaponry.

No discrediting the feat or anything, by ricocheting with a dark is less impressive than with a bullet.

That doesn't matter, because we're talking about Deadshot's aim and not what he uses.

Despite having been around for 15+ years longer than Jigen, he has yet to shoot down a bullet.

Daisuke and his opponents shot the bullets at the same time. He didn't literally move his hand while the bullet was in the air and then shoot them down. Your own gifs confirms that.

Here you go. He did though, it shows both of the other people firing before he does. The first one actually takes places at the beginning of the video

Ok, he shot down the bullet, but this doesn't mean that he'll tag Batman with it, because Batman has dodged far faster bullets before.

Well first off, Deadshot's race different. He was clearly hispanic in AoA, yet white in the games

Ok, but the directors confirmed that it is canon to the games, and all the other characters in the movie had the exact same design they had in the games. Also, Deadshot looked hispanic in Batman Arkham City as well:

No Caption Provided

Not to mention that the suicide squad only got a brief mention and only in Origins, there where a lot of characters who never appeared in the games and honestly there really wasn't a lot to think it was since there wasn't any mention of the events in the games or vice versa.

And? The movie is canon to the games. Waller was fat in the movie, Harley, Joker, Batman and Zasz had the exact same design. Hell, Batman's batmobile and batclaw had even the same design, and only the Arkham verson of Batman has a batclaw.

Yet, if you go out out of cover during one of the fights with him, he insta kills Batman.

That's not even canon to the story. In canon: Batman was cautious, and he used cover to cover and stealth to take out Deadshot. So I'm not sure why you'd bring this up.

One thing I should add. While I'll admit Deadshot is better than this, this is still something that happened.

  1. Deadshot was unaware that Batman was there, and straight as Batman came, Deadshot took the shot.

You said he couldn't tag Batman, yet he's able to keep somebody substantially faster at bay and even tag him.

The guy you showed that Daisuke stalemated doesn't mean jack sh*t when Batman's dodged bullets that are by far faster than bullets from a magnum. Hell, Arkham Batman has even moved faster than what electricity did:

No Caption Provided

That doesn't matter, because Batman won't go running up against Daisuke and try to dodge bullets and all kind of stuff. He'll use stealth, and I'll continue further down this post to show why he'll succeed with that tactic.

Proof it was bullet proof, because it made the similiar damage that's done to normal glass. Also the bullet proof glass when shot doesn't look like that as I'll show in the video below.

''The judge generally sits behind a raised desk, known as the bench. Benches in U.S. federal courtrooms and some state courtrooms are usually bullet-resistant to protect judges from courtroom shootouts.''

It's bullet resistant, but still good, because the bullet effortlessely smashed through bullet-resistant glass. Besides, it was due to the plot that he was even out so long. The plot wanted Batman to have been 'KO'ed' so Catwoman was going to be in danger, so Batman could come in and save her by surprise. It was mostly due to the plot, because in Arkham Origins, he took three bullets at point blank and his armour wasn't even damaged.

Also what kind of ammo do you suppose he was using, because even armor piercing rounds do that to Bullet proof glass.

I don't know, I'm not so knowledgable when it comes to firearms, or any weapon.

Like I said, game wasn't even finished when it was released.

It doesn't matter. Batman is a genius, so it wouldn't be surprising if he can create an armour that can take hits like that. He got punched through a wall by Bane and his suit was fine after that.

The point is that he's not dodging bullets after they have been fired, which makes the actual speed of the bullet completely irrelevant. Show me an instance where he has and I'll concede this point, but until then.

What about bullets from an AI turret?

Sure, he got tagged once in the first page, but he also blocked one with his arm in the first page as well. Also, he moved as fast as electricity in the second scan.

Dodging bullets from Deadshot alone is good enough to say that Batman can dodge whatever Daisuke shoots at him, because a) Deadshot is just as accurate as Daisuke and b) Deadshot's bullets travels far faster, beause he uses automatic guns, and Daisuke uses a magnum.

For the most part it's the normal herp derp super duper world famous assassins, though a few in the past have actually been competent and nearly killed Goemon(despite being very superhuman and having a sword that can cut through anything, the feat from the video was pretty meh by his standards) and Jigen/Lupin. The guy in the second video was considered one of the best assassins in the world and was viewed as the best shot(this was when Jigen in his early years). He single nearly killed Lupin, Jigen and Fujiko(having to be saved) and made Jigen have to stage his own death in order to not die. The guy was also using device that basically granted him borderline limited pre cog through cameras(explained at 13:30). Then there's been some ninja's in the past like in plot of the fuma clan(I can't find it on youtube right now, I'll edit it in if i do) and that sort of stuff where the assassins are actually stealthy.

Ok, now show some stealth feats for them, because I'm pretty sure that Batman can bypass Daisuke's sense when Batman has gone through an entire room filled with ninjas:

Loading Video...

He has more than one gun, also he's fast enough to react to the batclaw.

Being fast enough to react to the batclaw doesn't matter, because Daisuke can't see through smoke, can he? While the smoke is active, Batman disarms him and quickly moves up to Daisuke and takes him out in close range. It would seem something like this inside of the smoke:

No Caption Provided

Before Daisuke gets the chance to run away from the smoke, Batman will already be there and beat the crap out of him.

It's as you said, Batman's more cautious and isn't going to be as confrontational when he's up against somebody he doesn't know. Jigen doesn't care, the second that he notices something up(like the smoke pelets flying through the air). It's also going to take some time for the smoke to actually come out and it will only cover so much area. Jigen's a mobile guy like i said, he's not going to stand still while this is going on.

You're right, but Daisuke isn't agile enough to get out of the smoke before Batman beats him up. Also, Batman doesn't exactly need the smoke, TBH. He can just be stealthy and take out Daisuke whenever he wants, because he got Detective Vision which basically means that Batman can plan out his attacks and slowly move in and take out Daisuke. Batman can just come from behind and take out Daisuke without even using smoke, because he's stealthy enough.

Detective Vision is what tips the odds in my favour. Batman can literally be standing 50 metres away from Daisuke and know his location, his weaponry, etc. Batman can just come from behind and take out Daisuke, and no, Daisuke isn't agile enough to get out of the smoke before Batman beats him up, because Batman will instantly move as soon as the smoke is up. Batman's more agile that Daisuke and I dare say so. Batman was literally outrunning bullets from choppers. The chopper Daisuke was running from was shooting down on the ground, whereas the bullets from the choppers Batman was running from was shot towards Batman's line of running:

No Caption Provided

Batman also danced around the bullets shot by Deadshot:

No Caption Provided

Batman is definitly more agile than Daisuke, and as soon as the smoke is up, then it's bye bye for Daisuke, because Batman won't hesitate to take him out in an instant.

Also, Batman is the one who has the odds in his favour in this match, because of Detective Vision; He will know where Daisuke is at all times, so Batman basically holds the tactical and combat advantage over Daisuke.

This was my last post in this debate.

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He never misses and if someone like Deadshot can't tag Batman, then nor will someone like Daisuke. Why? Because Deadshot not being able to tag Batman is due to the fact that Batman is dodging the bullets.

No, it proves Deadshot's aim isn't worth a damn if the target is moving. Every single feat you've shown has the thing not moving. The hellicopter was stationary

In conclusion: Batman dodges bullets (far faster than Daisuke's)

Something you keep saying, still haven't proved.

I meant pillar in a metaphorical way. Daisuke most likely hit a critical spot on the chopper, because there's no way a single bullet from a magnum can drop a chopper.

Still not sure what you mean by pillar. Also not sure what your point in saying that he hit a critical point, where talking about accuracy and speed here. Actually that helps my argument more.

It was at least less than half a second, because he shot instantly as he turned around. It's good enough to say that Batman dodges bullets, thus disabling Daisuke's main weaponry.

Due to his guns, he doesn't have to nearly as much movement to shoot. Also no time frame was given and IIRC we didn't even see the him turn around in the trailer(it's been awhile though and it could have been in one of the trailers I didn't see). I also feel your underestimating how fast that is, this is roughly .1 seconds. And again, even if it was .3 is nearly twice as fast.

Loading Video...

Daisuke and his opponents shot the bullets at the same time. He didn't literally move his hand while the bullet was in the air and then shoot them down. Your own gifs confirms that.

How? It shows both firing there guns, the Jigen doing so after. It's not like they couldn't show both firing at the same time.

Ok, but the directors confirmed that it is canon to the games, and all the other characters in the movie had the exact same design they had in the games. Also, Deadshot looked hispanic in Batman Arkham City as well:

He was white, it was just awkward lighting. Just look at how white his hands, there whiter than Bruce's neck.

No Caption Provided

And? The movie is canon to the games. Waller was fat in the movie, Harley, Joker, Batman and Zasz had the exact same design. Hell, Batman's batmobile and batclaw had even the same design, and only the Arkham verson of Batman has a batclaw.

Waller wasn't anywhere near as fat

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

and none of the same voice actors besides Nolan North(whose Nolan North) and Kevin Conroy whose always Batman. Hell, Harley Quinn had an accent. Also the designs in the games are based of off Batman TAS. The only ones who notably deviate from it are Joker and Scarecrow. There wasn't even a consistency to it. Joker looked like he did in Origins, Bane looked like AA and

That's not even canon to the story. In canon: Batman was cautious, and he used cover to cover and stealth to take out Deadshot. So I'm not sure why you'd bring this up.

Because the Developers clearly felt if Batman had gotten into Deadshot's sight(especially in the context of getting paid to kill him) he would have tagged and killed him.

Deadshot was unaware that Batman was there, and straight as Batman came, Deadshot took the shot.

My Point was, forbeing able to shoot in half a second as you claim, he sure does take his time to shoot a dude whose standing still

Hell, Arkham Batman has even moved faster than what electricity did:

Are you really implying is anywhere near the speed of electricity. You know what fine, lets play this game. I raise you goemon spiting a bolt of lightning in in half. Sorry,can't make a gif of this video for some reason. It's at 0:50, also 1:35 for another speed feat while where at it.

Loading Video...

It's bullet resistant, but still good, because the bullet effortlessely smashed through bullet-resistant glass. Besides, it was due to the plot that he was even out so long. The plot wanted Batman to have been 'KO'ed' so Catwoman was going to be in danger, so Batman could come in and save her by surprise. It was mostly due to the plot, because in Arkham Origins, he took three bullets at point blank and his armour wasn't even damaged.

It still doesn't change the fact that it happened and it was done by the actual creators of the series, while Origins was made by others. The origins scene also completely contradicts the gameplay and means Deadshot basically wasn't even a threat.

It doesn't matter. Batman is a genius, so it wouldn't be surprising if he can create an armour that can take hits like that. He got punched through a wall by Bane and his suit was fine after that.

Batman was early in his career during Origins and as you said blunt force=/=the piercing power of a bullet.

Ok, now show some stealth feats for them, because I'm pretty sure that Batman can bypass Daisuke's sense when Batman has gone through an entire room filled with ninjas:

I feel kind of stupid for not thinking about this before, but who other for stealth feats then Lupin and him self who have stolen the statue of liberty(the Japanese and American one) and snuck into basically the french white house. This of course all happened in two chapters

Being fast enough to react to the batclaw doesn't matter, because Daisuke can't see through smoke, can he? While the smoke is active, Batman disarms him and quickly moves up to Daisuke and takes him out in close range. It would seem something like this inside of the smoke:

I mean he's used stuff in the past that allows him to see in smoke, but that's hardly standard gear. Like I said though, the smoke's pretty ineffective against anybody who isn't completely incompetent.

Batman was literally outrunning bullets from choppers.

You mean in the exact same way the helicopter was firing at Jigen on the rooftop at 0:47 in the original video I posted.

This was my last post in this debate.

That's fine, you where right when you said it was devolving into Jigen vs Deadshot.

@sirfizzwhizz We are ready for votes if you don't mind editing the title please.

@thenaughtytitan As per you're request.

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@skit: Thank you, it was a fun debate for me, and I'm surprised that it got finished so fast. Daisuke is a real beast from what you showed.

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@captain_batman_ftw: Thank you to you as well, it was definitely fun. 3 posts each was short, but they where all pretty lengthy.

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@captain_batman_ftw: Get my vote

It seemed to me that DeadShot vs lupin reached a stalemate, which doesn't matter because Batman beat DeadShot, I didn't see a large enough difference between Lupin and DeadShot to suggest Batman would have a hard time with Lupid than he did with DeadShot

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@thenaughtytitan: Not trying to rush you or anything and this will probably come off as rude, but when do you think you're going to vote?

@agentghostrider Thank you for voting(I'm not sure if I already told you this or not, my post got deleted).

@jestersmiles Yeah it really does(sorry I'm responding so late), If you don't mind, could you please vote.

Just going to tag everybody from the tourney. If some of you don't mind voting.

@stormshadow_x@thatguywithheadphones@remnet@jacthripper@darkseid1006@nickzambuto@frisky4@azterix_@jaxthejester_2014@chimeroid@bullet_to_the_head@joewell@sherlock@attackonshahbaz@i_like_swords@mimisalome

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Giving my vote to @captain_batman_ftw. While both debaters did great, it seemed to me that Skit didn't have a super solid case against stealth. The assassin's thing was ok, but it was shown Batman's stealth was much better than theirs and I believe it's good enough to give him the win.

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#24  Edited By Chimeroid

Giving my vote to Daisuke. Debating was awesome from both sides, but constantly using feats from the movie is really simply wrong. Also bats is not 100% covered in body armor and Skit has proven that Daisuke is a lot faster than humans can.

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@chimeroid: How is it wrong to use feats from the canon movie that takes place in the arkham universe?

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@thenaughtytitan: Skit explained that with pointing out the differences, first off being changing Deadshots race, second changing his persona. and also he missed an entire barrage of bullets which is unacceptable.

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@chimeroid: That's fair I guess... have not read the full debate yet but I am about to.

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@thenaughtytitan: also i always wondered why they dont just shoot him in the mouth that has no armor :D

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@skit: gets my vote, will post reasons soon.

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#30  Edited By mimisalome
@skit said:

@thenaughtytitan: Not trying to rush you or anything and this will probably come off as rude, but when do you think you're going to vote?

@agentghostrider Thank you for voting(I'm not sure if I already told you this or not, my post got deleted).

@jestersmiles Yeah it really does(sorry I'm responding so late), If you don't mind, could you please vote.

Just going to tag everybody from the tourney. If some of you don't mind voting.

@stormshadow_x@thatguywithheadphones@remnet@jacthripper@darkseid1006@nickzambuto@frisky4@azterix_@jaxthejester_2014@chimeroid@bullet_to_the_head@joewell@sherlock@attackonshahbaz@i_like_swords@mimisalome

Bats an excellent planner/impromtu planner/compulsive planner with a lot of options at his disposable (smokes, sleeping gas, electrified batarang, electrified fists, etc) have access to intelligence and spying devices (bugs, scanners, gps tags, etc), have tracking skills, hunting skills, extensive knowledge of the human psyche and have martial skills that is proven to match and even win against superhuman feats.

So even though no one detailed their plan of attacks (which i think is important), by default, knowledge, tactics, and strategies goes to Bats... and for me those stuffs trumps everything.

even though i hate Bats and would rather root for Jigen.

This one goes to bats.... unless Jigen debater could come up with a very detailed and solid plan of attack that takes advantage of Bats strengths and weaknesses

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@sirfizzwhizz: Skit gets my vote for the following reasons

• He was debating for one character, rather than trying to debate for two.

• He was much better in representing his character feat-wise.

• He had more effective counter arguments.

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#32  Edited By Skit

@mimisalome: Not arguing with you on this, since well, that obviously wouldn't be appropriate. I should clarify though that both characters know absolutely nothing about the other and are both in character. This is simply how they would both react in a situation where the only thing they know is they where facing each other. Batman would keep his distance until he felt safe about attacking and Jigen would just shoot him..

@joewell Thank you for voting

@chimeroid@jacthripper Thanks for the vote.

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@mimisalome: Your vote should be based on the debate, not on who you think would win anyways.

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#34  Edited By TheNaughtyTitan

@skit: Dammit man, im sowwy! I forgot to vote again! I will vote by the end of today!

Pinky swear
Pinky swear

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#35  Edited By mimisalome

@jacthripper: well it is based on the debate because it didnt show how Daisuke would win over Batmans advantages

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@mimisalome: Did his opponent show Batmans advantages? Because based on your primary post, it was based on preconcieved notions.

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#37  Edited By mimisalome
@skit said:

@mimisalome: Not arguing with you on this, since well, that obviously wouldn't be appropriate. I should clarify though that both characters know absolutely nothing about the other and are both in character. This is simply how they would both react in a situation where the only thing they know is they where facing each other. Batman would keep his distance until he felt safe about attacking and Jigen would just shoot him..

@joewell Thank you for voting

@chimeroid@jacthripper Thanks for the vote.

"I should clarify though that both characters know absolutely nothing about the other and are both in character. This is simply how they would both react in a situation where the only thing they know is they where facing each other."

This is why i believe Akrham Bats have the edge. He has scanner and hearing aid that can practically penetrate visual obstructions and will give him a lot of info regarding Jigen's ability, including the type of weapon that he carries, his state of alarm and/or other important parapernalias.

Bats can launch his remote batarang to test Jigen reaction and marksmanship skills... Bullet speed is not absolute and its trajectory predictable so Bats can calculate the risks involving of attacking Jigen head on.

In short Bats has the initial advantages in terms of intelligence and planning.

He can bait Jigen to shoot until he runs out of bullets and then proceed to attack. bait Jigen to an area that is rigged with remotely detonated explosives pastes. (Jigen doesnt know this). Can use his electronic thingy to disarm firearms, his batclaw to stole firearms.

Bats can do all this without being seen.

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@mimislome: The fact that you had to personally justify and support your opinion should tell you who won based on their debate, not because you know ways that the character could win. If the person representing a character has no shown that they can win, they should not get your vote.

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#39  Edited By mimisalome

@jacthripper: Bats debater highlighted his plan... which is to go stealth

The Battle!

As for how the battle actually will go:

The battle always favours the competitor with a great tactical and strategical mind. Batman's always cautious when he faces opponents with firearms, such as he did against Deadshot in their fight, in Batman Arkham City:

Batman will use cover to cover and try to use stealth on Daisuke, which is how the battle will go, because Daisuke can't tag what he can't see, and Batman will be hiding all over the place. But even if Daisuke detects Batman, then that won't be a problem, either, because Batman can just throw a smoke bomb and quickly take out Daisuke while to smoke is active:

So to sum it up:

  • Daisuke won't be capable of tagging Batman, because he can't tag someone who may be hiding behind him.
  • Even if Daisuke detects Batman, there's nothing Daisuke can do to Batman, because a smoke bomb will be tossed by Batman and then sh*t will happen to Daisuke, and before he knows anything about it; he will be in a hospital eating with a straw.

Practically the same as my post

"by default, knowledge, tactics, and strategies goes to Bats... and for me those stuffs trumps everything."

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Chimeroid

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@jacthripper: Bats debater highlighted his plan... which is to go stealth

The Battle!

As for how the battle actually will go:

The battle always favours the competitor with a great tactical and strategical mind. Batman's always cautious when he faces opponents with firearms, such as he did against Deadshot in their fight, in Batman Arkham City:

Batman will use cover to cover and try to use stealth on Daisuke, which is how the battle will go, because Daisuke can't tag what he can't see, and Batman will be hiding all over the place. But even if Daisuke detects Batman, then that won't be a problem, either, because Batman can just throw a smoke bomb and quickly take out Daisuke while to smoke is active:

So to sum it up:

  • Daisuke won't be capable of tagging Batman, because he can't tag someone who may be hiding behind him.
  • Even if Daisuke detects Batman, there's nothing Daisuke can do to Batman, because a smoke bomb will be tossed by Batman and then sh*t will happen to Daisuke, and before he knows anything about it; he will be in a hospital eating with a straw.

Practically the same as my post

"by default, knowledge, tactics, and strategies goes to Bats... and for me those stuffs trumps everything."

GTFO THIS IS NOT A BATTLE YOU DO NOT COMMENT HERE ON STRATEGIES

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#41  Edited By mimisalome

@chimeroid: im not debating im explaning my vote...

GTFO?

then dont tag me again

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@mimisalome: That is better, but I believe that Skit argued against that. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have to make an argument as to why someone wins, just support your claims. The way you have phrased it this far, it sounds like you're supporting the character, not the debate itself. Especially since the debate is much more than the closers. Did CBFTW show us that Bruce could dodge Jigen or otherwise tank his bullets? If so, then you should vote for Bruce, if not you should vote for Jigen. It's not about who should win in a fight, but instead about who better supported their character and proved that they could win. I felt that Skit better supported the character, and so he gets my vote. Why did you vote? Was it because you thought that Batman would win? Or did you feel that CBFTW had a better argument? Then you explain what made his argument better. So your post would likely look like this instead:

My vote goes to CBFTW because he showed that Batman was able to deal with Jigen. He was able to counter Skits arguments, and Skit did not show an effective way to defeat Bruce's superior stealth.

That's how I would phrase it, because otherwise you may get called out by someone like me and have a debate on why someone wins.

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#43  Edited By mimisalome

@mimislome: The fact that you had to personally justify and support your opinion should tell you who won based on their debate, not because you know ways that the character could win. If the person representing a character has no shown that they can win, they should not get your vote.

Like i said i based my vote based on his tactics...

Which is to go stealth, stay hidden, and create an opportunity.

Jigen's debater goes with "what if" -if Batmans was seen then Jigen will shoot.

basically he wants Jigen to goes on defensive without highlighting any means to break Bats stealth and intelligence advantages.

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#44  Edited By mimisalome

"Did CBFTW show us that Bruce could dodge Jigen or otherwise tank his bullets?"

1. He shows that Jigen cant tagged bats as long as he goes stealth. "dodging" is a what if scenario... because it will only happen "if" Jigen saw batman

2. He shows that if ever Jigen sees Bats, Bats will deploy smoke pellets to hide is presence. Skit never shown any Jigen feats that involve shooting accurately in thick smokes.

3. He shows that Bats can survive bullet shots with his armor. (even if the Suit suffers material failure him he is still alive)...

dodging is irrelavant in his argument

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Jacthripper

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@mimisalome: Dodging is relevant, because you're automatically accepting only one guys debate. If you only accept one argument, then you're never going to have a clear vote. You must also say- well what if Jigen can hit Batman, then will he be able to survive long enough? No one is infallible, so you must address the other side of the argument against stealth. That's the point of he match.

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mimisalome

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#46  Edited By mimisalome

@jacthripper: "Dodging is relevant, because you're automatically accepting only one guys debate. If you only accept one argument, then you're never going to have a clear vote. You must also say- well what if Jigen can hit Batman, then will he be able to survive long enough? No one is infallible, so you must address the other side of the argument against stealth. That's the point of he match."

dodging is irrelevant because skit never shown anyways to counter batman stealth tactics.

Jigen can only hit bats if Jigen makes an opportunity for himself, breaks bats stealth and expose batman for a clear shoot.

"No one is infallible"

Same goes for Jigen, If you assume that Bats can make a mistakes on his stealth tactics and the "what if" scenario happens then the same falliablity should apply to Jigen....

1. what if Bats never make a mistake and his tactics works. What will Jigen do?

2. What if Bats uses smoke bombs and Jigens cant see bats what will Jigen do?

3. What if the initial bullets didnt killed Batman even if it tags hims what will Jigen do?

See how it goes? you are arguing that Bats will make a blunder while executing his stealth tactics.... unless Jigen abilities include super luck then i dont think camping out and waiting for bats to make a mistake and expose himself without any effort from Jigen is a good argument against bats stealth tactics

Skit must show first that Jigen can break Bats stealth tactics with a detailed tactics of his own.

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Chimeroid

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@mimisalome: Your post can influence other voters and you should never do that. The only thing you can talk about is debate arguments used. And not even talk about feats per se. Only about posts by actual people in the cav

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mimisalome

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#48  Edited By mimisalome

@chimeroid said:

@mimisalome: Your post can influence other voters and you should never do that. The only thing you can talk about is debate arguments used. And not even talk about feats per se. Only about posts by actual people in the cav

"Giving my vote to Daisuke. Debating was awesome from both sides, but constantly using feats from the movie is really simply wrong. Also bats is not 100% covered in body armor and Skit has proven that Daisuke is a lot faster than humans can."

Edited:

Forgot this:

@thenaughtytitan: also i always wondered why they dont just shoot him in the mouth that has no armor :D

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Chimeroid

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@mimisalome: that was me wondering. And it ended there. You put your post, and then you went into your own separate debate with an other viner. I made one short post you posted more than the ones in the CaV

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mimisalome

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#50  Edited By mimisalome

@chimeroid: so whats the problem?

is posting and explaining an opinion illegal now?

You can criticize other posters but in my case i cant?

You even told me to GTFO/

what gives?