Street Level DC or Marvel Character that can beat Wolverine

@Super_SoldierXII said:

OK.

Street level characters only (No, neither Midnighter nor Karate Kid are street level. Sorry.)

This is an open debate topic. The goal is to realistically decide which DC and / or Marvel street level characters can defeat Wolverine in a random encounter. That's right. No prep (sorry Bat fans). Please state your reasons.

Morals on for all characters.

Each character, including Wolverine, are fighting to the best of their known ability (use greater consistency when citing feats).

Fight starts 30 feet apart (to give a fighting chance to those gun toting hard cases).

Fight takes place here;

So, which street level bada$$ can take down ...

With morals on they probably wouldn't fight or stalemate, but morals off and all in their prime:

Bruce Wayne (yes this has be done over and over and it's almost unanimous except for like 1-2 threads and 2 certain members) Batman fanboys have slandered his name unfortunately by suggesting he bests like Karate kid (because of 2 fights) or defeats Superman no morals or flash no morals (and no way in hell I might add)

Cassandra Cain (Same reason as Bruce)

Richard Dragon (Probably)

T'challa (IMO)

Steve Rogers (IMO)

Slade Wilson (Same as Cap)

Lady Shiva

Maybe Daredevil but I'd wager they're about the same because some writers make Logan out to be just a beast with no skill while others have him utilizing years and years of experience and prowess in battle.

Iron fist with chi

@Supermanwithatan01:

I respectfully disagree with your entire post pretty much.

I’d like for you to point out what the folks you hold in higher martial esteem have done to place them above Wolverine. Aside from losing to him (on the Marvel side). I'll adhere to his more modern showings herein to back my opinion with fact;

Iron Fist = lost to Logan in a sparring match based solely on martial skill (no claws, no fist) in New Avengers.

Captain America = lost to an exhausted Wolverine with a depleted healing factor in Origins (was fighting off Cyclops simultaneously for a time, and Cap had the muramasa blade for a spell therein as well) and was fixing to lose to him again in AvX #3 had Cap not thought ahead and set him up with the aid of Giant Man and Sharon Carter.

Shang Chi = defeated him easily and readily in a few short panels using only Kung Fu no less.

Winter Soldier = Wolverine defeated him and this despite Bucky having prepped for Logan and having gotten the drop on him.

These are a few of the more modern that come readily to mind, but list goes on really.

Of those that have beaten him; Romulus, Mister X, Daken, X-23 (to name the most commonly cited) occurred in stories often driven by plot and / or circumstance (conveniently ignored all too often), and even then Wolverine has come back victorious, and oft times easily at that, shortly thereafter - beating each of them in turn.

Recently in Wolverine #303, he took out Daken, Mystique, Lord & Lady Deathstrike, Sauron and Sabretooth (along with a few other B-listers not really worthy of mention) one after the other … getting the drop on them and then getting out just as fast. Not saying he could or should pull that off with consistency, but it happened. And recently at that.

The days wherein we questioned whether Creed could or should beat Logan are long gone as well; Wolverine's absolutely manhandled him no less than 5 times this year alone since Creed's return (and irregardless, most of his losses happened in flashbacks to Logan's distant and memory implanted past).

Which is to say, Wolverine’s more recent showings are really starting to highlight his skill more and more (taking out Kid Gladiator, a Strontian, with a pressure point attack is not the least of these - and trumps most of anything I've seen Batman do skill-wise).

Of the top tier martial badasses in Marvel, only Iron Fist and Black Panther (on the heart shaped herb, with vibranium suit and energy daggers) could possibly take a majority over Wolverine. And this due more so to gear and chi than solely skill based.

Go ahead, bring up Wolverine’s low end showings and I can contradict each one with more consistent showings more in line with his power set. So really, while I can respect your opinion, it's not at all based off showings or comic book fact. It's just your opinion.

Finally, you can believe Slade is the same as a moral-less Steve if you like (I disagree), irregardless, he would likewise lose to Wolverine in a random unless you can prove Slade can punch through Logan's healing factor before Wolverine would realistically land but one punch to the face claws out ...

Oftentimes I wonder what it does take to defeat the guy. I've seen plenty of his supporters claim he can be beat but they won't say by whom.

It's not speed that's key to beating him, as seen in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine threads.

It's not raw brute strength because he's been punched by the Hulk.

It's not skill cause Wolverine's a top-tier martial artist, despite having a healing factor and adamantioum skeleton.

I've seen people say that he's beaten the Human Torch (a ranged flier).

Telepathy is useless if he goes into a berserker rage (how that doesn't affect his skill I have no idea).

Apparently you can't even kill him nowadays. And to top it off, he has taken pummelings from Spider-Man and literally smiled. Heck, one guy wrote a fanfic of him being pummeled by Superman to which he responded "Hulk hits harder than you." with a smirk.

So how do you go about beating him short of Odin?

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: Well on this site its generally agreed that spider-man can incapacitate with webbing. Most people believe iron fist has the skill and power output to win. Gorgon can take him because he all ready has. Daken with the murmasia claws can beat him. There are probably more street levelers who can beat wolverine. Wolverine beating human torch would be pis/wis and probably should be disregarded unless there is some other reason human torch lost...

@jashro44: I don't even know how a "street" leveller is defined anymore.

And you know I don't like invoking PIS.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Oftentimes I wonder what it does take to defeat the guy. I've seen plenty of his supporters claim he can be beat but they won't say by whom.

It's not speed that's key to beating him, as seen in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine threads.

It's not raw brute strength because he's been punched by the Hulk.

It's not skill cause Wolverine's a top-tier martial artist, despite having a healing factor and adamantioum skeleton.

I've seen people say that he's beaten the Human Torch (a ranged flier).

Telepathy is useless if he goes into a berserker rage (how that doesn't affect his skill I have no idea).

Apparently you can't even kill him nowadays. And to top it off, he has taken pummelings from Spider-Man and literally smiled. Heck, one guy wrote a fanfic of him being pummeled by Superman to which he responded "Hulk hits harder than you." with a smirk.

So how do you go about beating him short of Odin?

Wolverine loses plenty of times ... but if one were to realistically look at the skill set he has as you just delineated, many of those times were writers ignoring half of those and opting to showcase his healing factor and little else.

His 'skill' has too often been conveniently set aside. As the alternative would make him pretty much unstoppable to all save higher bricks or energy users with adequate range and / or flight. Wolverine would realistically end up killing most other antagonists.

My personal solution to this, would not be to have his skill ignored, but rather to have Wolverine pop his claws only under extremely rare and extreme circumstances. A samurai does not draw his blade needlessly. Neither should Wolverine.

@Super_SoldierXII: I was wondering why there aren't a bunch of maimed heroes.

gambit with his full powers

I believe that Smiley could take out a Bone Claw Wolverine.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickzambuto said:

lol at some of the choices in this thread...

Spider-Man is the obvious answer (PROBLEM SUPER_SOLDIER?) but there are more. Deathstroke is not one of them.

With webbing no problem at all whatsoever. Without webbing, not happening.

I'd add Morlun (Pre-Second death), anything after that is not Street-Level.

Spider.

Spider-Girl (for an actual higher majority than Peter if Incap is allowed)

Mr Negative.

Black Tarantula (Possible Minority- its been stated that he's faster than Spider-Man, but doesn't mind tanking damage and while he is nigh Bullet Proof, he's not tanking Adamantuim). Think of a Hyped up Spider-Man, particularly in strength and durability without Spider-sense and webbing, but with instead cyclops style eye-beams and a much stronger Healing factor.

What-if Spider-Man

That's all for now................

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

Yeah, its really just a wind up to Wolverine fans to be honest :P. I personally see it as a low showing for Logan, and he was holding back. As for being better than Peter H2H, I would say no. Later on in the issue, Logan ambushes SpOck from behind. SpOck dodges the initial attack and starts bragging about how he's going to stomp Logan again (Something Peter wouldn't have done IMO), but puts himself in a position where Logan can pin him with his claws. SpOck has also said he hadn't achieved perfect synergy (along those lines) with Peter's Body yet.

Peter late on during the Amazing Spider-Man run actually had some good H2H feats (stomping Spider-Woman who was stated to have perfect form by Shang-Chi, Speed blitzing and beating multiple Spider-Powered individuals with the Spider-Sense which he lacked at the time- in a few seconds with Pressure points, defeating a mutated Kaine blindfolded who was stronger and faster than him when his Spider-Sense was restored). Until SpOck show skill along these lines, rather than just fighting with less restraint, I would consider Peter Superior (Pun intended).

It's not just about beating wolverine in 1,2, 3 or even 4 skirmishes its beating him and keeping him down which I can't see anyone really doing...any street leveler that doesn't have enhanced healing is doomed...deathstroke, black panther, iron fist are the only 3 that could go back and fourth with him...daredevil and canary mmm not so much

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

Yeah, its really just a wind up to Wolverine fans to be honest :P. I personally see it as a low showing for Logan, and he was holding back. As for being better than Peter H2H, I would say no. Later on in the issue, Logan ambushes SpOck from behind. SpOck dodges the initial attack and starts bragging about how he's going to stomp Logan again (Something Peter wouldn't have done IMO), but puts himself in a position where Logan can pin him with his claws. SpOck has also said he hadn't achieved perfect synergy (along those lines) with Peter's Body yet.

Peter late on during the Amazing Spider-Man run actually had some good H2H feats (stomping Spider-Woman who was stated to have perfect form by Shang-Chi, Speed blitzing and beating multiple Spider-Powered individuals with the Spider-Sense which he lacked at the time- in a few seconds with Pressure points, defeating a mutated Kaine blindfolded who was stronger and faster than him when his Spider-Sense was restored). Until SpOck show skill along these lines, rather than just fighting with less restraint, I would consider Peter Superior (Pun intended).

Grrrr ...

I still hold that without webbing, Spider-Man loses to Wolverine.

You all said it yourself ... Logan was holding back, didn't even pop his claws and easily ambushed SpOck shortly thereafter, pinning him claws to face. That KO is a lower end showing for Logan ...

@Super_SoldierXII: Any word on the newer additions?

@laflux: Dock Ock's tech is what Peter will never match though. I saw the Ultron preview and he actually takes over a few of Ultron's bodies that are sent after him.

But yes, peter and his Spider Fu really did boost him up in the H2H area.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

Yeah, its really just a wind up to Wolverine fans to be honest :P. I personally see it as a low showing for Logan, and he was holding back. As for being better than Peter H2H, I would say no. Later on in the issue, Logan ambushes SpOck from behind. SpOck dodges the initial attack and starts bragging about how he's going to stomp Logan again (Something Peter wouldn't have done IMO), but puts himself in a position where Logan can pin him with his claws. SpOck has also said he hadn't achieved perfect synergy (along those lines) with Peter's Body yet.

Peter late on during the Amazing Spider-Man run actually had some good H2H feats (stomping Spider-Woman who was stated to have perfect form by Shang-Chi, Speed blitzing and beating multiple Spider-Powered individuals with the Spider-Sense which he lacked at the time- in a few seconds with Pressure points, defeating a mutated Kaine blindfolded who was stronger and faster than him when his Spider-Sense was restored). Until SpOck show skill along these lines, rather than just fighting with less restraint, I would consider Peter Superior (Pun intended).

Grrrr ...

I still hold that without webbing, Spider-Man loses to Wolverine.

You all said it yourself ... Logan was holding back, didn't even pop his claws and easily ambushed SpOck shortly thereafter, pinning him claws to face. That KO is a lower end showing for Logan ...

Well it could have been that Dock Ock crushed and destroyed his wind pipe with his 10 ton strength. Logan wasn't down for that long was he? I don't think he was knocked out.

@SlimJ87D: He was knocked out for a bit, but I think that seems unlikely. Spider-Woman once used her superior strength (to Logan's) to get him to slash his claws along his throat, and Logan wasn't K.Oed, though he did need some time to heal (this was in New Avengers). I also recall Wolverine getting his throat ripped out again in another instance, and still remained conscious.

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D: He was knocked out for a bit, but I think that seems unlikely. Spider-Woman once used her superior strength (to Logan's) to get him to slash his claws along his throat, and Logan wasn't K.Oed, though he did need some time to heal (this was in New Avengers). I also recall Wolverine getting his throat ripped out again in another instance, and still remained conscious.

Yeah ... but that was 'stupid' Wolverine. It was 'wild' raar Logan in the Savage Land and poor writing. Think it was Bendis if memory serves. He has all kinds of fun putting Wolverine in all kinds of ridiculous situations ... just look what young Jean Grey did to him recently. Lol.

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D: He was knocked out for a bit, but I think that seems unlikely. Spider-Woman once used her superior strength (to Logan's) to get him to slash his claws along his throat, and Logan wasn't K.Oed, though he did need some time to heal (this was in New Avengers). I also recall Wolverine getting his throat ripped out again in another instance, and still remained conscious.

But I've seen DD and Bucky perform some successful throat strikes to put Logan down, of course teh DD one was PIS but the Bucky one was in Wolverine Origins.

He also got cut in the throat in New Avengers when they needed to save Maya and needed time to heal to continue fighting.

What I was getting at was that Logan could have got the wind knocked out of him and couldn't breath. Lets say Dock Ock crushed his wind pipe dislocating it and then slamming him down hard enough to knock the wind out of him. Both of those together would be enough to stop oxygen from running around in his brain.

There are just as many instances of successfully using Logan's throat as there are instances where it didn't work I guess. Maybe it's not just damaging his throat but what you do afterwards to stop the oxygen in his brain.

Spider-Man and Beast for Marvel.

Deathstroke from DC

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D: He was knocked out for a bit, but I think that seems unlikely. Spider-Woman once used her superior strength (to Logan's) to get him to slash his claws along his throat, and Logan wasn't K.Oed, though he did need some time to heal (this was in New Avengers). I also recall Wolverine getting his throat ripped out again in another instance, and still remained conscious.

Yeah ... but that was 'stupid' Wolverine. It was 'wild' raar Logan in the Savage Land and poor writing. Think it was Bendis if memory serves. He has all kinds of fun putting Wolverine in all kinds of ridiculous situations ... just look what young Jean Grey did to him recently. Lol.

Yes it was Bendis, but it was more an iteration to say that Wolverine having his neck damaged doesn't usually lead to him being KO'ed

Prepare to heckle me for this, but I actually enjoyed his earlier New Avengers Work TBH. I do like the fact that he seemed to completely forget the mental PSI shields Xavier implanted in Logan.

But Bendis, he has a habit for under-writing character against his personal favorites.

Spider-Woman vs Logan (He said he like Jess cause of her hair).

Daredevil vs Gorgon (The less said about that the better).

Hawkeye vs Mr Negative (Mr Negative got knocked down with an elbow by Hawkeye, something Spider-Man needed all his strength to do earlier).

Thanos vs Avengers in AA (Again better leave that book closed).

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D: He was knocked out for a bit, but I think that seems unlikely. Spider-Woman once used her superior strength (to Logan's) to get him to slash his claws along his throat, and Logan wasn't K.Oed, though he did need some time to heal (this was in New Avengers). I also recall Wolverine getting his throat ripped out again in another instance, and still remained conscious.

But I've seen DD and Bucky perform some successful throat strikes to put Logan down, of course teh DD one was PIS but the Bucky one was in Wolverine Origins.

He also got cut in the throat in New Avengers when they needed to save Maya and needed time to heal to continue fighting.

What I was getting at was that Logan could have got the wind knocked out of him and couldn't breath. Lets say Dock Ock crushed his wind pipe dislocating it and then slamming him down hard enough to knock the wind out of him. Both of those together would be enough to stop oxygen from running around in his brain.

There are just as many instances of successfully using Logan's throat as there are instances where it didn't work I guess. Maybe it's not just damaging his throat but what you do afterwards to stop the oxygen in his brain.

I can see where your coming then when you put it like that. Didn't BP perform a throat punch on Sabretooth to achieve a similar affect?

Deathstroke or Taskmaster

@StMichalofWilson said:

Deathstroke or Taskmaster

Taskmaster isn't beating Logan even with his UDON Gear.

wolverine would kill deathstroke he is about even in strength and can tank more of beating and has more skill and experince.

and reflexes are close.

@laflux: Not sure but would love to see scans.

yup,

that and Iron Fist

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@laflux said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

Yeah, its really just a wind up to Wolverine fans to be honest :P. I personally see it as a low showing for Logan, and he was holding back. As for being better than Peter H2H, I would say no. Later on in the issue, Logan ambushes SpOck from behind. SpOck dodges the initial attack and starts bragging about how he's going to stomp Logan again (Something Peter wouldn't have done IMO), but puts himself in a position where Logan can pin him with his claws. SpOck has also said he hadn't achieved perfect synergy (along those lines) with Peter's Body yet.

Peter late on during the Amazing Spider-Man run actually had some good H2H feats (stomping Spider-Woman who was stated to have perfect form by Shang-Chi, Speed blitzing and beating multiple Spider-Powered individuals with the Spider-Sense which he lacked at the time- in a few seconds with Pressure points, defeating a mutated Kaine blindfolded who was stronger and faster than him when his Spider-Sense was restored). Until SpOck show skill along these lines, rather than just fighting with less restraint, I would consider Peter Superior (Pun intended).

Grrrr ...

I still hold that without webbing, Spider-Man loses to Wolverine.

You all said it yourself ... Logan was holding back, didn't even pop his claws and easily ambushed SpOck shortly thereafter, pinning him claws to face. That KO is a lower end showing for Logan ...

I still hold that it's legit. A number of people have looked at that instance and said that Logan was hold back. What was he holding back? His consciousness? Logan holding back has nothing to do with his durability. (People make the same statements when people like Superman get hurt too, it's silly.) Him not trying to murder Spider-Man doesn't mean he allowed himself to be knocked out. It also doesn't mean that he allowed himself to be hit numerous times before that. While I understand the idea of him not fighting to his fullest (something I see as a character trait and not PIS, but that's another discussion), limiting his offense so as to not mutilate Parker is not necessarily limiting his speed or any form of conscious defense. A number of people also say, well he snuck up Parker right after that. True, but it's stated clearly earlier in the comic that because he's Otto and not actually Parker, he doesn't use his powers as well as he ought to, like when he doesn't concentrate or lets his mind override his natural reflexes. And then later he avoids the first part of Wolverine's sneak attack but gets caught when he's bragging about how quick he is. For all the ways that Otto may be a superior spider-man, actual combat making full use of his powers (and Peter's relatively recently obtained skill) is not one of them. Whether or not a knock out after multiple blows to the skull by a pissed off 20 tonner is a low showing for someone that's been knocked out by less, or not, has been talked to death already, but it's clearly possible. I think it's funny that the guy who did it was Otto, given how the whole reason he's in position he's in now is the years of head trauma caused by a Spider-Man he only recently realized was always holding back, but again, it's another thing. Another 'nother thing is that I kind of lose all hope when all Wolverine's wins against characters consistently portrayed (far more consistently than Logan) as master marshal artists are taken as unquestioned gospel but Logan's losses, whether they be at the hands of centuries old killers, other master marshal artists, or even trained killers with Wolverine's own basic* power set, are considered PIS. Right, because the stuff in Wolverine: Origins wasn't driven by plot... Everything is driven by plot, but Wolverine's losses are called out for it more than his wins are. But there's a tangent and I've gone off on it.

My vote: Black Panther. The real Black Panther. (The realest Black Panther. Really.) His master martial arts status, when tested on Wolverine himself, resulted in the Canadian getting literally tossed around in more than one encounter and Black Panther putting seemingly little effort (and not tech) into it. Add on to that such classics as standard armor that should negate much of what Wolverine would dish out, claws that can unmake even Wolverine's plot-imbued skeleton, and energy daggers with lots of fun and fancy uses, and there's character that takes down Wolverine.

And there's always Tao, but I just like to say Tao. Tao. Oh, and Warblade, just because I'm thinking of the Wildcats. Oh, now Nemesis. I should stop.

@SlimJ87D said:

What I was getting at was that Logan could have got the wind knocked out of him and couldn't breath. Lets say Dock Ock crushed his wind pipe dislocating it and then slamming him down hard enough to knock the wind out of him. Both of those together would be enough to stop oxygen from running around in his brain.

That's not really how the body works. I mean, even if Spider-Man crushed his throat (which it didn't look like he did to me) he wouldn't instantly pass out, he'd be struggling to breathe before passing out. Knocking the wind out of him would similarly make it hard for him to breathe, but not instantly knock him out. Unless you're suggesting that he more literally "got the wind knocked out of him", as in he was forced to exhale by the blow (instead of just interrupting the natural movement of his diaphragm) but that would also require his throat to be able to conduct air in the first place...and still wouldn't instantly knock him out. And "dislocating" the trachea in a way that would prevent air from flowing would be a good deal more gruesome than what was portrayed. It just didn't look like an respiration-related KO to me.

Static could magnetise him to a tractor and proceed to lol while he struggles.

Nobody below Spidey. Deathstroke would get whooped by Wolvie w/o prep in a random encounter.

@SlimJ87D said:

@laflux: That's interesting. It's kind of sad that Otto seems to be a better Spider-man than Peter combat wise. Maybe not morally.

We know Wolverine wasn't really trying though as Otto points it out himself.

I don't think Spock is better then Peter combat wise. After SPock curbstomped wolverine this happened

Gallery

It should be noted in the same issue this was stated

Gallery

All though Spock would beat wolverine.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Iron Fist and Spider-Man will serve as upper level limits of street level for the sake of debate.

I personally Captain America as the top level of street which would leave out Iron Fist and Spider-man.

Using your parameters for a majority, then all the Spider family including Spider-Woman if she just flies out of range and venom blasts him into unconscious.

Others as mentioned Gorgon/New 52 Deathstroke/Iron Fist

Quicksilver if he is not written as a jobber.

Gamora

Domino can't buck the luck

Omega Red as he is just nasty

Zealot

Ulysses Bloodstone

Puma

Mongoose/Tigra/Beast should be able to take him with their strength/speed combo

@robertloucksjr:

Gorgon, Omega Red and Zealot from your list are legit.

But there's no way Omega Red is street level.

New 52 Deathstroke ... I can debate very well against that one.

The others ... Lol at them beating Wolverine.

@jashro44 said:

So far I think iron fist is the only one who takes it of those listed and he might not be street level. Do mr. Terrific and blue beetle count as street level? I'm not sure what tier terrific is on but blue beetle for sure isn't if I'm even generally accurate on his power level... Do guys like gorgon, Spider-Man and iron fist count as street level? May as well ask now because people will probably list them.

Micheal Holt is definitely street level. he has no powers above normal human being and uses only his tech and his martial arts experience. As for BB would depend on which incarnation. Ted Lord or even some versions of Dan Garret.

@Buckshot:

Oh boy, here we go ... feels like we've had this type of discussion a few times you and I. :)

I still hold that it's legit. A number of people have looked at that instance and said that Logan was hold back. What was he holding back?

He held back his claws and was obviously not out to hurt Spider-Man (by SpOck's own admission) therefore, he was holding back.

Logan holding back has nothing to do with his durability. (People make the same statements when people like Superman get hurt too, it's silly.) Him not trying to murder Spider-Man doesn't mean he allowed himself to be knocked out.

I agree with you there. Wolverine holding back has nothing to do with his durability. I don't think any of us are stating otherwise (least I hope not). The point being, were Wolverine cutting loose, SpOck would not have manhandled him like that based off a multitude of previous confrontations between the two characters in question. Hey, imagine an extra twelve inches in the haymaker SpOck barely dodged, for example ... Parker wouldn't be too happy when he re-inhabits his body to find his face had been dissected.

The fact he KO'd Wolverine is definitely plausible, but still a low end showing. Again, based off a multitude of other showings demonstrating to which extent he can soak blunt force trauma - including against Spider-Man. I liken it to a boxing match once again. Why does a boxer drop early one match, then seems to soak an endless amount of shots the next? There are 'money' shots that can hit 'just so' then it's indeed lights out.

A number of people also say, well he snuck up Parker right after that. True, but it's stated clearly earlier in the comic that because he's Otto and not actually Parker, he doesn't use his powers as well as he ought to, like when he doesn't concentrate or lets his mind override his natural reflexes. And then later he avoids the first part of Wolverine's sneak attack but gets caught when he's bragging about how quick he is

Wolverine set him up with his other hand ... landing SpOck just where he wanted him claws to face. In dodging that grapple, he threw himself into Logan's offhand. So he avoided nothing ... he did exactly as Logan predicted he would. It was a set-up and SpOck fell for it. I don't see why we need to downplay that when Logan has easily and readily pinned Parker on no less than three occasions prior to this showing (a showing written, no doubt, to highlight the "Superior" in Superior Spider-Man's own ongoing no less) and has tagged him numerous times with relative ease.

For all the ways that Otto may be a superior spider-man, actual combat making full use of his powers (and Peter's relatively recently obtained skill) is not one of them.

I agree, Otto is untried in Spider-Man's powers. But skill aside, he doesn't hold back and unleashes Parker's full strength in his attacks as a result. That's not to be downplayed either.

Whether or not a knock out after multiple blows to the skull by a pissed off 20 tonner is a low showing for someone that's been knocked out by less, or not, has been talked to death already, but it's clearly possible.

I agree. It's clearly possible given the distinction I delineated above. Though hold it's the exception, not the rule based on far more consistent showings to the contrary. You clearly do not agree ... we can continue to agree to disagree as you're correct, it's been argued to death.

My vote: Black Panther. The real Black Panther. (The realest Black Panther. Really.) His master martial arts status, when tested on Wolverine himself, resulted in the Canadian getting literally tossed around in more than one encounter and Black Panther putting seemingly little effort (and not tech) into it.

While Panther with tech versus Wolverine would be a great fight, one I'm also inclined to favor Panther for a slight majority, I feel there's a huge exaggeration of showings in your comment. Panther sidestepping a 'raar' Wolverine charge once, in no way indicates Panther would hands down beat Wolverine.

Wolverine clearly has the upper-hand throughout; set to impale Panther till the fight was stopped due to Thing's timely intervention. Though I do shutter at the inappropriateness of Wolverine calling Panther "Blacky". Pretty sure it was not intended as a racial slur ... but damn Marvel got away with murder there.

coyote

Hmmm I guess Peter Stanchek isn't allowed due to him being from Valliant? (and him being street level is debatable too lol)

Backlash, Nemesis and Grifter could apart from them the rest seem to have already been listed. There's a fair few 40k "street level" characters that could but they aren't Marvel or DC :p

@jashro44:

All though Spock would beat wolverine.

Only via incapacitation.

EDIT: With webbing. In case you felt inclined to post the KO and state "voila! Incapacitated."

Lol.

Spidey, Iron Fist, Deathstroke, Deadpool (If he took fight seriously) and hasn't Nick Fury beaten Wolverine?

@spiderpool94 said:

Spidey, Iron Fist, Deathstroke, Deadpool (If he took fight seriously) and hasn't Nick Fury beaten Wolverine?

Spidey webs Logan up. Agreed.

Wolverine's completely humiliated a tech enhanced Nick Fury before. Fury ain't taking anywhere near a majority over Logan. And Deadpool is not in Wolverine's league, outside of prep. DP has only beaten a Fatal Attractions Wolverine (i.e. no healing factor and still suffering the trauma of getting the metal ripped out of him). All other showings have seen Wolverine as superior - and this in no uncertain terms.

As to Iron Fist, I'd point out that Wolverine's taken down Junzo, a bloke who had just previously threw Iron Fist around like he was nothing and two hit KO'd Luke Cage. Logan's also shown superior skillz to Rand in a sparring match so I'm not sure Iron Fist defeating Logan is a given. That, to me, is a close fight.

Deathstroke would lose a slight majority IMHO as well due to Logan's staying power.

@Super_SoldierXII: I agree with you about Spock. And about black panther I wouldn't say wolverine had the upper hand. Black panther didn't really know he was in a fight so that did play a role (not that I agree with the idea of black panther dancing around and humiliating wolverine like I just feel black panther had the upper hand).

@beatboks1 said:

@jashro44 said:

So far I think iron fist is the only one who takes it of those listed and he might not be street level. Do mr. Terrific and blue beetle count as street level? I'm not sure what tier terrific is on but blue beetle for sure isn't if I'm even generally accurate on his power level... Do guys like gorgon, Spider-Man and iron fist count as street level? May as well ask now because people will probably list them.

Micheal Holt is definitely street level. he has no powers above normal human being and uses only his tech and his martial arts experience. As for BB would depend on which incarnation. Ted Lord or even some versions of Dan Garret.

All right. Thank you for the info.

Oh and about new 52 deathstroke, it was shown in deathstroke #17that if you have enough precision and skill you can cut the Nth metal armor. Wolverine has a lot of precision and skill and also has unbreakable claws.

@jashro44:

Where, exactly, did he have the upper hand in that fight? Wolverine's dialogue indicates, while being a jerk, and while definitely fighting to win, he was not going all out either.

@The_Lunact_And_Manic:

Lol to Squirrel Girl.

@Super_SoldierXII:It was heavily implied that wolverine was trying to kill black panther (that's the impression I got). Wolverine says "Any fight worth fightin is a fight worth winnin' Blacky!", and Black panther was also stating "He cannot possibly mean to slay me?" and then there is the things dialogue as well "You were really set ta ice the panther weren't ya?" I suppose black panther never had the upper hand in the sense he landed multiple hits or had wolverine struggling to break free of a sub mission hold, all though he was evading him easily which would seem the writer intended that to show black panther is a lot faster and more skilled (I personally think there around equals in those regards). I don't really agree with the fight as I said, but I do think black panther got the better of him from what i have seen of the fight.

Gallery

@jashro44 said:

@Super_SoldierXII:It was heavily implied that wolverine was trying to kill black panther (that's the impression I got). Wolverine says "Any fight worth fightin is a fight worth winnin' Blacky!", and Black panther was also stating "He cannot possibly mean to slay me?" and then there is the things dialogue as well "You were really set ta ice the panther weren't ya?" I suppose black panther never had the upper hand in the sense he landed multiple hits or had wolverine struggling to break free of a sub mission hold, all though he was evading him easily which would seem the writer intended that to show black panther is a lot faster and more skilled (I personally think there around equals in those regards). I don't really agree with the fight as I said, but I do think black panther got the better of him from what i have seen of the fight.

Gallery

Man, we're both reading this entirely differently. Both Panther and the Thing were incredulous and wondering whether Wolverine was trying to kill T'Challa. He neither denied or confirmed but based on the character, I doubt it. He's used his claws plenty of time and only struck to wound.

As to speed, T'Challa states "he cannot possibly possess my jungle swiftness, can he?". Wolverine answers that question in spades by not only avoiding him, but tossing him to the dirt. So there is not way to read that confrontation as writers showing T'Challa to be tons faster than Wolverine.

Sabretooth

@Rumble Man said:

Sabretooth

Not even close;

@Super_SoldierXII: Thats only a loss in their numerous battles

he won some and he lose some

still stands