Stormwatch VS The Avengers in Wakanda

AVENGERS ROLLCALL:

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Stormwatch in a megacrush. MM, Apollo, Jenny Quantum could all solo. Jack Hawksmoore could use the city itself to kill a bunch of avengers. Midnighter could take any of them 1v1 (maybe together, but doubtful). Engineer could take control of any of their tech.

@Equonox: I can see Sage combating Engineer's technopathy with her own. As we have seen from his battle with The Eminence of Blades, Midnighter's battle intuition is not always a guarantee of instant victory. T'Challa is a strategic powerhouse commanding a very formidable team with versatile capabilities, and not to mention that BP and Pym are two of the world's greatest super scientist with access to one of the world's best facilities to use for their prep.

Door all of the Wakandan soldiers and most he avenger into Hyperspace or the Sun, leaving Thor and maybe Ms Marvel, who can e beaten by Stormwatch

And none of that will stop MM from mindraping everyone (no, not Moondragon...her TP is weak), or stop Jenny Quantum from just thinking them all out of existence, or Apollo just obliterating them all (he's as strong as Supes w/out weakness to Kryptonite or magic). Avengers are far and away outmatched here.

@Equonox: Moondragon isn't as weak as you make her out to be plus her tk will be useful for both defense and mid to long ranged offense. Your are also over looking Sage's own tp as well as her Firewall ability. Jenny Quantum is powerful, but her control of her powers leaves much to be desired. Apollo is very powerful provided he has access to sunlight, and it would be relatively easy for the Avengers to prep an answer for that problem.

@kadeem: 2 scenarios: 1) Jenny Controls her powers, wipes all avengers from existence. Winner: Stormwatch

2) Jenny DOESN'T control her powers, wipes away all of existence, except herself. Winner: Jenny Quantum (Stormwatch)

I derive this likely from the some issue you did in which Midnighter speculates she isn't in control of her powers (the conclusion of which being the outcome of scenario 2), but she proves him wrong 5 seconds later (actually earlier, do to them being in a dimension without a linear time stream).

@Equonox: It is not as simple as it being either of those two scenarios. Her lack of control also gives her a inability to use her powers in combat in ways that are strategically advantageous for her team. In fact as you pointed out yourself her lack of control could very well put her own team at risk, even if she does not wipe out the whole of existence in doing so.

bump

My immediate thought was "Stormwatch." Angie and Hawksmoor alone are impressive enough in theory, but with the rest of them it looks even worse for the Avengers, even with MM not having his pre52 displays to fall back on. Angie would have access to all of Wakandas tech and Jack Hawksmoor would have access to...all of Wakanda. Doesn't look good for the Avengers, I'd say there's plenty room for an argument to be made for them though, and I'd like to see it.

@Equonox said:

Stormwatch in a megacrush. MM, Apollo, Jenny Quantum could all solo. Jack Hawksmoore could use the city itself to kill a bunch of avengers. Midnighter could take any of them 1v1 (maybe together, but doubtful). Engineer could take control of any of their tech.

I agree with this.

@Buckshot: In this scenario The Avengers do have a couple of specific advantages in that they know the specific details of Stormwatch's powers, and that Stormwatch didn't know about the other Avengers' presence in Wakanda. The arguments you posted for Stormwatch's victory do pose a very real threat for Wakanda. Having the knowledge of their powers coupled with 3 hours of prep time I think the Avengers would use their own technopath (Sage) with Waknanda's own technicians to set up cyber defenses against the Engineer. I can see T'Challa's tactical mind determining it is imperative that Hawksmoor being taken out of the picture as quickly as possible for both the sake of victory and damage reduction. I think BP's attack plan on the ground would begin with a full out assault on Hawksmoor to eliminate the threat he posses to Wakanda.

Who knows what kind of magic Black Panther could conjure up in three hours. Also I think its plausible for Hank Pym to shrink the Stormwatch ship with his Pym Particles. He could probably redirect the beam via a Wakandan satellite projecting a large enough beam to hit the ship. Also I don't think it would be out of character for Black Panther to use his infinity gem (I forgot which one he has) given that his country is being invaded...again. Thor with three hours of prep could, I don't know, channel a really big god blast lol?

@kadeem said:

@Buckshot: In this scenario The Avengers do have a couple of specific advantages in that they know the specific details of Stormwatch's powers, and that Stormwatch didn't know about the other Avengers' presence in Wakanda. The arguments you posted for Stormwatch's victory do pose a very real threat for Wakanda. Having the knowledge of their powers coupled with 3 hours of prep time I think the Avengers would use their own technopath (Sage) with Waknanda's own technicians to set up cyber defenses against the Engineer. I can see T'Challa's tactical mind determining it is imperative that Hawksmoor being taken out of the picture as quickly as possible for both the sake of victory and damage reduction. I think BP's attack plan on the ground would begin with a full out assault on Hawksmoor to eliminate the threat he posses to Wakanda.

Stormwatch would instantly know what the Avengers could do. Hawksmoor could get that info, Angie could get that info, Projectionist could get that info, and Martian Manhunter could get that info. They may not have 3 hours, but I really don't see them needing 3 hours to put the information they have to use, especially if they came ready to take over one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world known for never having been taken over before. They came ready for a full scale world, I think they could quickly refocus given the amount of info they could gather. Given their greater mobility (Doors), I think they'd have control of the battle. Sage might give them trouble, but I'd need to know what she's capable of. The Eye is fairly advanced alien technology with its own sentience, and though I grant Angie a lot because of her previous incarnation, I don't know what Sage can do that would suggest she could overcome the current Engineer. Even her most recent feats have her producing plot devices allowing her to drop Apollo and Jenny Quantum without a fight. And given Hawksmoor and Angie both being on the team, I don't think cyber defenses (assuming they'd be effective in the first place) would be enough. The technology that would run such defenses would likely be connected to the city that Hawksmoor would control. T'Challa might have a great mind, but it wouldn't take a genius for Stormwatch to realize that they might focus on Hawksmoor and defend him, which would be incredibly easy given their teleportation technology or Hawksmoor's own ability to hide beneath the city or just screw with gravity (or make it seem like he is, it's not clear) and keep them away from him (not to mention telepathic tricks MM could pull or things Jenny could get up to, or just normal defense of a teammate). And if they focus on Hawksmoor, Jenny Quantum is free to do what she wants, not to mention Martian Manhunter and Apollo. And if they pay attention to all those big guns, Midnighter will skate right by them and start dropping characters with well placed strikes while they're not watching out for him.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Who knows what kind of magic Black Panther could conjure up in three hours. Also I think its plausible for Hank Pym to shrink the Stormwatch ship with his Pym Particles. He could probably redirect the beam via a Wakandan satellite projecting a large enough beam to hit the ship. Also I don't think it would be out of character for Black Panther to use his infinity gem (I forgot which one he has) given that his country is being invaded...again. Thor with three hours of prep could, I don't know, channel a really big god blast lol?

Pretty sure BP doesn't have an infinity gem seeing as he turned down the illuminati invite, and even if he did, he didn't use it when Namor trashed his city so I doubt he'd use it now. And I don't see super science or big energy blasts being a big deal for Jenny Quantum to handle (especially with the genius MM by her side or in her head, not to mention Angie). As for BP doing any large scale magic, I'd need an example of something, but beyond that, magic flowing through a city is something Jack Hawksmoor has displayed control over. That was the old Hawksmoor, but Hawksmoor's powers have always been highly conceptual more than anything else so I'm more willing to accept him doing things he hasn't before.

While Apollo, Midnighter, Hawksmoor, and Engineer buy some time, J'onn calmly instructs Jenny on how to wipe the Avengers out of existence. She does so, and Stormwatch win.

@Sideslash said:

While Apollo, Midnighter, Hawksmoor, and Engineer buy some time, J'onn calmly instructs Jenny on how to wipe the Avengers out of existence. She does so, and Stormwatch win.

@Buckshot: I think it is feasible that The Avengers and Wakandans could develop cyber defenses against The Engineer, although I do not think they would hold her off indefinitely. The way I would see it play out is that Angie would remain on The Eye trying to execute her hack job on Wakanda while the rest of the team is on the ground. T'Challa and Doc Pym develop some sort of computer virus to put Angie out of commission, and they both infiltrate The Eye with the aid of Sage's cyber back up to inject Angie with the virus, while the other Avengers are taking on the other Stormwatch agents. I think BP would give the Avengers on the ground a good strategy to work with. I think prior to the battle Pym & BP would of developed some means of blocking out the son to water down Apollo's potency. Midnighter is a beast, but I do not think Thor would be easy to him to take down since he has an excellent power set blended with the skills of a seasoned warrior.

T'Challa will be pissed at the end of this fight.

Uhm, Stormwatch duh, and Sage is an X-men.

@kadeem said:

@Buckshot: I think it is feasible that The Avengers and Wakandans could develop cyber defenses against The Engineer, although I do not think they would hold her off indefinitely. The way I would see it play out is that Angie would remain on The Eye trying to execute her hack job on Wakanda while the rest of the team is on the ground. T'Challa and Doc Pym develop some sort of computer virus to put Angie out of commission, and they both infiltrate The Eye with the aid of Sage's cyber back up to inject Angie with the virus, while the other Avengers are taking on the other Stormwatch agents. I think BP would give the Avengers on the ground a good strategy to work with. I think prior to the battle Pym & BP would of developed some means of blocking out the son to water down Apollo's potency. Midnighter is a beast, but I do not think Thor would be easy to him to take down since he has an excellent power set blended with the skills of a seasoned warrior.

So in 3 hours the team will block out the sun, develop cyber defenses powerful enough to hold off Angie, and also create a supervirus to take her down? I think those are lofty goals for only 3 hours. But let's work with them. Blocking out the sun will be meaningless if Apollo is already charged and ready for war (which he would be given the OP), not to mention Doors can get him to a sun if he really needs a recharge. Cyber defenses against Angie are still lacking support, especially given that she'd already been prepared to take on the technological defenses of an insanely advanced nation. She was ready for massive defenses so I don't know what huge difference Sage would make without some sort of example, and as I mentioned before, any computer system involved in this defense would be at the mercy of Jack Hawksmoor too, not just Angie, and Jack would be coming at the nation's tech from an entirely different angle. As for a super virus for Angie, beating her to even attempt to use it is it's own thing and then there's the question of it even working. Angie has created incredibly things. I mentioned plot devices to take down the most powerful members of her team earlier. She's also whipped up an answer to a roaming Red Lantern ring on the fly if I recall. I don't think she'd easily fall to an injection. And even if The Avengers can pull of all 3 of those things in 3 hours (which I doubt), that would still leave Martian Manhunter, Jenny Quantum functioning unchecked, not to mention the others. I'm not sure why you put Midnighter up against Thor, but if that's how things shook out, I wouldn't count Midnighter out. Midnighter's ability to determine weak points might allow him to drop the physically superior Norse god with a single good strike while Thor looked for someone he thought would actually be a challenge.

@Buckshot said:

@kadeem said:

@Buckshot: I think it is feasible that The Avengers and Wakandans could develop cyber defenses against The Engineer, although I do not think they would hold her off indefinitely. The way I would see it play out is that Angie would remain on The Eye trying to execute her hack job on Wakanda while the rest of the team is on the ground. T'Challa and Doc Pym develop some sort of computer virus to put Angie out of commission, and they both infiltrate The Eye with the aid of Sage's cyber back up to inject Angie with the virus, while the other Avengers are taking on the other Stormwatch agents. I think BP would give the Avengers on the ground a good strategy to work with. I think prior to the battle Pym & BP would of developed some means of blocking out the son to water down Apollo's potency. Midnighter is a beast, but I do not think Thor would be easy to him to take down since he has an excellent power set blended with the skills of a seasoned warrior.

So in 3 hours the team will block out the sun, develop cyber defenses powerful enough to hold off Angie, and also create a supervirus to take her down? I think those are lofty goals for only 3 hours. But let's work with them. Blocking out the sun will be meaningless if Apollo is already charged and ready for war (which he would be given the OP), not to mention Doors can get him to a sun if he really needs a recharge. Cyber defenses against Angie are still lacking support, especially given that she'd already been prepared to take on the technological defenses of an insanely advanced nation. She was ready for massive defenses so I don't know what huge difference Sage would make without some sort of example, and as I mentioned before, any computer system involved in this defense would be at the mercy of Jack Hawksmoor too, not just Angie, and Jack would be coming at the nation's tech from an entirely different angle. As for a super virus for Angie, beating her to even attempt to use it is it's own thing and then there's the question of it even working. Angie has created incredibly things. I mentioned plot devices to take down the most powerful members of her team earlier. She's also whipped up an answer to a roaming Red Lantern ring on the fly if I recall. I don't think she'd easily fall to an injection. And even if The Avengers can pull of all 3 of those things in 3 hours (which I doubt), that would still leave Martian Manhunter, Jenny Quantum functioning unchecked, not to mention the others. I'm not sure why you put Midnighter up against Thor, but if that's how things shook out, I wouldn't count Midnighter out. Midnighter's ability to determine weak points might allow him to drop the physically superior Norse god with a single good strike while Thor looked for someone he thought would actually be a challenge.

Given that The Avenger's in this scenario had access to info on Stormwatch, I don't think Thor would view Midnighter as an insignificant opponent. Midnighter would actually have a pretty good shot provided that Thor sticks to short ranged combat. If Thor uses long ranged mystical attacks, I see Thor as having the advantage. Otherwise The rest of your argument sounds reasonable to me.

@kadeem: Midnighter is the character most likely to be overlooked because even if The Avengers get as much info on the team's powers as readers do, their understanding of Midnighter will still be incredibly vague, and given the more obvious powerhouses on the team, he's likely to not be seen as such a serious threat. And that's not even getting into Thor's arrogance or his willingness to fight opponents on their level. Engaging in fisticuffs with Midnighter isn't likely to end well. And I'm still curious why you've decided Thor and Midnighter will be duking it out.

This is an easy win for the Stormwatch.

Stormwatch has just too many options to win this. I think BP's great mind and resources would find a way to Counter the Most obvious but not all of them.