Storm and Cyclops vs The Fantastic Four

@Killemall said:

I still dont understand what people are debating about here because if you claim Storm is going all out so would Johny, he has shown the ability to go supernova and planck, either of this would have storm and cyclops as roast duck and sue has to do is put a forcefield on to protect themselves and let Johnny to the killing.

It's a Storm thread. No matter what, desperate arguments in favor of the goddess must be raised.

@CitizenBane said:

@Killemall said:

I still dont understand what people are debating about here because if you claim Storm is going all out so would Johny, he has shown the ability to go supernova and planck, either of this would have storm and cyclops as roast duck and sue has to do is put a forcefield on to protect themselves and let Johnny to the killing.

It's a Storm thread. No matter what, desperate arguments in favor of the goddess must be raised.

Don't do that. Don't try to turn this into a fanboy thread when all I'm doing is countering what you post. If that's all you got then I'm out.

@Lord Shiva said:

@Killemall said:

I still dont understand what people are debating about here because if you claim Storm is going all out so would Johny, he has shown the ability to go supernova and planck, either of this would have storm and cyclops as roast duck and sue has to do is put a forcefield on to protect themselves and let Johnny to the killing.

I don't think this is bloodlust.

Johnny has used the nova at least 3 times that I can recall without bloodlust.

@Lord Shiva said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Killemall said:

I still dont understand what people are debating about here because if you claim Storm is going all out so would Johny, he has shown the ability to go supernova and planck, either of this would have storm and cyclops as roast duck and sue has to do is put a forcefield on to protect themselves and let Johnny to the killing.

It's a Storm thread. No matter what, desperate arguments in favor of the goddess must be raised.

Don't do that. Don't try to turn this into a fanboy thread when all I'm doing is countering what you post. If that's all you got then I'm out.

Fine, but it's not like it's not already happening. People who will remain unnamed are claiming Storm solos with ease and that she can manipulate the air inside Sue's shield. That's a healthy mix of fanboyism and ignorance of how Sue's powers work.

@Lord Shiva said:

@Killemall said:

I don't think this is bloodlust.

Well even still so, once Storm and cyclops go all crazy on them, i am sure they will have to retaliate. They certainly have enough powers in them to win the fight specially the ability of Johnny Storm and Sue. I still am finding it hard to find they lose.

Sure Storm can bring rain, hail and snow if she was bloodlusted but then Johnny can melt everything with a supernova.. hard to say dude.

@CitizenBane said:

@Killemall said:

It's a Storm thread. No matter what, desperate arguments in favor of the goddess must be raised.

Not pointing anyone particularly, specially not Lord shiva since we have had arguments before and he always seem to post good informed points with scans, but i have seen few rediculious argument from Storm. Specially yesterday when people were arguing Storm will was stronge than a elite green lanter or her reaction time was as fast as silver surfer and quicksilver.

FF should win.

after a good battle, the fantastic four win.

sue is the main reason. storms powers may be strong, but sues shields can take much more than what ororo can dish out.

Man this thread has jumped since i was last here. The FF and Sue still win.

@Lord Shiva: A five mile journey would not be enough to exhaust Sue's shield, when she's been shown as capable of creating 3 seperate shields at the same time that can resist a Nova blast from Johnny and stop a lightning blast from Ragnarok

@jhazzroucher:

Storm can't affect the inside of Sue's shields. In terms of finding them with her air-sensing abilities. How precise is her ability to use it. Their are hundreds/thousands of life forms in the Savage Lands so i doubt whether she'd be able to pinpoint their location.

@Afro_Warrior said:

Man this thread has jumped since i was last here. The FF and Sue still win.

@Lord Shiva: A five mile journey would not be enough to exhaust Sue's shield, when she's been shown as capable of creating 3 seperate shields at the same time that can resist a Nova blast from Johnny and stop a lightning blast from Ragnarok

@jhazzroucher:

Storm can't affect the inside of Sue's shields. In terms of finding them with her air-sensing abilities. How precise is her ability to use it. Their are hundreds/thousands of life forms in the Savage Lands so i doubt whether she'd be able to pinpoint their location.

Storm would be able to affect the area inside her field. Storm has already shown that while inside Sue's shield she can affect the area outside the shield. The opposite should hold true as well.

Also, she sustained "ONE" bolt of lightning. Even after that stint you can see her nose is bleeding. The strain is obviously taxing for her. How long can she sustain the shield if it is hit successively with Lightning as hot as the surface of the sun. IW has been shown to tire and the same could hold true here.

@Killemall said:

@Lord Shiva said:

@Killemall said:

I don't think this is bloodlust.

Well even still so, once Storm and cyclops go all crazy on them, i am sure they will have to retaliate. They certainly have enough powers in them to win the fight specially the ability of Johnny Storm and Sue. I still am finding it hard to find they lose.

Sure Storm can bring rain, hail and snow if she was bloodlusted but then Johnny can melt everything with a supernova.. hard to say dude.

@CitizenBane said:

@Killemall said:

It's a Storm thread. No matter what, desperate arguments in favor of the goddess must be raised.

Not pointing anyone particularly, specially not Lord shiva since we have had arguments before and he always seem to post good informed points with scans, but i have seen few rediculious argument from Storm. Specially yesterday when people were arguing Storm will was stronge than a elite green lanter or her reaction time was as fast as silver surfer and quicksilver.

as much as you guys would like to argue for Johnny Storm, he is not a factor here. He needs oxygen to fuel his power (fire; supernova), remove this and you remove HT as a threat. Storm easily removes the oxygen source negating his power.

Namor regularly punches through Sue's Shields... CANON. ; ) Fantastic Four MURDER the 2 X-Men. Morals OFF?! Sue Shields Reed, Herself, & Ben while CCR Human Torch Super Nova's the entire Savage Land! The End.

@DeathsHead2 said:

Namor regularly punches through Sue's Shields... CANON.

; )

Fantastic Four MURDER the 2 X-Men.

Morals OFF?!

Sue Shields Reed, Herself, & Ben while CCR Human Torch Super Nova's the entire Savage Land!


The End.

storms power can work inside sue's shield, and johnny needs oxygen to use his power, which might i add, is under the control of the All Mighty Goddess. Take away the oxygen, Johnny has no fire, johnny is not threat. Its a good fight, but xmen leaders come out on top of this one..

Johnny has the COSMIC CONTROL ROD now. It'll more than fuel his Fire! Lol! She dies. Punisher could take her out from long reange with a sub-sonic sniper rifle. She'd never know it was coming....... then....... thwup! Dead Storm.

@butterflykyss: Actually no, Stroms ability to control the air only extends as far as she can make contact with it because it works through manipulating air pressure if the air is trapped in an airtight bubble (Sue's shield) she can't actually manipulate it. So in fact Sue could just make a huge bubble of air for her Reed and Ben then just tell Johnny to supernova and as DeathHead2 said Johnny has the cosmic control rod so it doesn't matter if there is no oxygen in the air.

@DeathsHead2 said:

Johnny has the COSMIC CONTROL ROD now. It'll more than fuel his Fire! Lol! She dies. Punisher could take her out from long reange with a sub-sonic sniper rifle. She'd never know it was coming....... then....... thwup! Dead Storm.

LOL you are going to get so much heat for that punisher comment :) :) good luck man,

Excellent fight. After a long fight I say FF wins 6/10

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

@Strider92 said:

@butterflykyss: Actually no, Stroms ability to control the air only extends as far as she can make contact with it because it works through manipulating air pressure if the air is trapped in an airtight bubble (Sue's shield) she can't actually manipulate it. So in fact Sue could just make a huge bubble of air for her Reed and Ben then just tell Johnny to supernova and as Death said Johnny has the cosmic control rod so it doesn't matter if their is no oxygen in the air.

???? As far as she can make contact with??? Where did you get that from? Storm has used her power on a global scale and made an incredibly large wind tunnel that connected from Wakanda all the way to San Francisco, while she was in Wakanda. Additionally, she can manipulate the air pressure within her ear much like she did to Tchalla to disorient Sue. And cosmic control rod is not in this fight i believe per OP. Also if your theory was true about Storm having to be in contact with the air, how was she able to manipulate the air outside of sue's shield while being inside Sue's shield?

@butterflykyss: hmmm yes in this case your right! That's very odd as it states her ability to control air comes from generating air pressure. She shouldn't be able to create any kind of pressure outside an airtight condition. I am right in thinking she's a mutant and not cosmic or magically powered? The only explanations I can think of is: 1.Sue's force field isn't airtight in this case. 2.Storms ability to manipulate air doesn't come from air-pressure in which case comicvine and marvel are both wrong (which I highly doubt). 3.She has some other ability i'm unaware of. 4.The scan is a case of plot convenience.

@nickthedevil said:

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

@Strider92 said:

@butterflykyss: hmmm yes in this case your right! That's very odd as it states her ability to control air comes from generating air pressure. She shouldn't be able to create any kind of pressure outside an airtight condition. I am right in thinking she's a mutant and not cosmic or magically powered? The only explanations I can think of is: 1.Sue's force field isn't airtight in this case. 2.Storms ability to manipulate air doesn't come from air-pressure in which case comicvine and marvel are both wrong (which I highly doubt). 3.She has some other ability i'm unaware of. 4.The scan is a case of plot convenience.

Storm powers work psionically, similar to a telepaths. This control just may result in the a change or variation of the air pressure. The point being, with the provided scan, is that she doesn't have to be in physical contact with the an environment to affect it. Not sure about CV being right or wrong, but I do know her powers work psionically. But to address all your points 1.) I am not sure if it is air tight or not, but we do know light has to be able transverse the field as you can see inside it. It could possibly well be airtight, but it being airtight or not wouldn't prevent Storm from affecting or controlling the air inside of it. 2.) Again her powers function psionically, which in controlling the elements would (in the case of making wind, manipulating the pressure inside ear) result in pressure changes. 3.) This may be possible. You are aware that Storm is not just limited to meterological feats. She actually manipulates the energy patterns behind the weather (lightning, rain, tornadoes), which opens the doors to her potentially being able to control a wild array of things outside of the weather. 4.) Hmmmm. I would doubt this. As I stated in point 2, Storm being in contact with air should not prevent her from affecting the air, much like a person being inside a building wouldn't prevent a telepath from entering into their mind or controlling their mind.

@butterflykyss: Ah that explains it I didn't know her powers worked psionically forget I said anything!

@Strider92 said:

Fantastic Four wins here

@Strider92 said:

@butterflykyss: Ah that explains it I didn't know her powers worked psionically forget I said anything!

hahaha no prob!!! :D

Sadly I have to say F4. Cyclops knows the land and hes a better stratagist than Mr.Fantastic and the 2 x-men have as much fire power as the F4. However I dont think thats enough in this fight. F4 win because of susan. IMO

@Strider92 said:

@butterflykyss: hmmm yes in this case your right! That's very odd as it states her ability to control air comes from generating air pressure. She shouldn't be able to create any kind of pressure outside an airtight condition. I am right in thinking she's a mutant and not cosmic or magically powered? The only explanations I can think of is: 1.Sue's force field isn't airtight in this case. 2.Storms ability to manipulate air doesn't come from air-pressure in which case comicvine and marvel are both wrong (which I highly doubt). 3.She has some other ability i'm unaware of. 4.The scan is a case of plot convenience.

Well know that you understand how her powers work (Storm that is) how do you think this goes now???? Just curious??

@Dernman said:

Fantastic Four

@butterflykyss: Although this makes it more even it doesn't state that they are bloodlusted so I don't think an in character Storm would suck all the oxygen out of the air and kill Cyke accidently. In my opinion under these conditions he's actually limiting what she can do. So i'll still stick with my first answer as Sue's powers can work on a selective level but it does make it a closer match.

@Strider92 said:

@butterflykyss: Although this makes it more even it doesn't state that they are bloodlusted so I don't think an in character Storm would suck all the oxygen out of the air and kill Cyke accidently. In my opinion under these conditions he's actually limiting what she can do. So i'll still stick with my first answer as Sue's powers can work on a selective level but it does make it a closer match.

Remember Storm, when not bloodlusted, has used this (the removal of air inside one's oxygen) feat against a soldier. And she manipulated the air pressure inside Tchalla, her husband 's ear, to take him out (which again she wasn't bloodlusted). In regard to air removal feat, you can remove the air from a person and KO them. It wouldn't necessarily result in her killing them. But I respectfully disagree and thanks for responding.

@butterflykyss: Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree in this case.

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Fantastic Four; they have a really good mix of skills, powersets and feats, so their teamwork and potential are unparalleled. Plus they have more experience.

@butterflykyss said:

@Killemall said:

as much as you guys would like to argue for Johnny Storm, he is not a factor here. He needs oxygen to fuel his power (fire; supernova), remove this and you remove HT as a threat. Storm easily removes the oxygen source negating his power.

I respectfully disagree. And he has gone supernova in space too. Besides Storm cannot really remove oxygen from the battle field because doing so would kill cyclops as well as storm, they both need to breath. Also Sue can create forcefield to prevent any of Storm's attacks. Sue can also plant a bubble in any of their brains to shut them off for good.

Pre-FF#600, the Four win.

Post-FF#600, the Four slaughter them.

@Killemall said:

@butterflykyss said:

@Killemall said:

as much as you guys would like to argue for Johnny Storm, he is not a factor here. He needs oxygen to fuel his power (fire; supernova), remove this and you remove HT as a threat. Storm easily removes the oxygen source negating his power.

I respectfully disagree. And he has gone supernova in space too. Besides Storm cannot really remove oxygen from the battle field because doing so would kill cyclops as well as storm, they both need to breath. Also Sue can create forcefield to prevent any of Storm's attacks. Sue can also plant a bubble in any of their brains to shut them off for good.

You do realize they start 5 miles away. Not sure the range of sue, but Storm and cyke has the advantage, her range is far reaching. And how would Sue attack if she cant see her. Storm shrouds the area with a pea soup fog. Do you have scans of his going supernova in space.. I have never known Johnny's power to work in space before his recent death.

What part of "Storm can't affect the air inside Sue's shields" is so hard to understand, when Sersi, Jean Grey and early Molecule Man failed to get through?

@nickthedevil said:

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

Seriously, I can't believe this.

this fight only goes done to storm and sue now the way i see it really could go both ways it's jjust a matter of who is faster lightning or her mind?

@CitizenBane said:

What part of "Storm can't affect the air inside Sue's shields" is so hard to understand, when Sersi, Jean Grey and early Molecule Man failed to get through?

I'm guessing all of the parts.

@CitizenBane said:

What part of "Storm can't affect the air inside Sue's shields" is so hard to understand, when Sersi, Jean Grey and early Molecule Man failed to get through?

this idea that Storm can't affect the air inside sue shield has already been debunked.... sorry. if storm's power can affect the weather outside of sue's shield while Storm is inside of sue's shield , the opposite obviously is true. it would be silly to suggest that Storm could not considering there are scans from canon that would suggest otherwise:

@Phylos said:

@nickthedevil said:

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

I wouldn't consider it a drop. FF really are not much of a threat to Storm especially when the battle starts off 5 miles apart. The true threat is Sue, but the distance really works in Storm's favor here, and cyke just helps seals the deal on this victory.

@butterflykyss: That wind isn't in Sue's shield, it's below it.

@Decoy Elite said:

@butterflykyss: That wind isn't in Sue's shield, it's below it.

O_o

You do understand the logic that being used with the scan provided? No one is denying that Storm's power is being utilized outside her shield. However, if Storm were inside Sue's shield and there was some type of barrier that wouldn't allow for Storm's power to work across her shield, Storm wouldn't be able to perform the feat that is shown in the scan i provided. This however, was not the case. That said, if Storm is able to utilize and control the weather outside of Sue's shield while Storm is inside her field, then Storm can and should be able to control the air within sue's field while Storm is outside of her field.

@butterflykyss said:

@CitizenBane said:

What part of "Storm can't affect the air inside Sue's shields" is so hard to understand, when Sersi, Jean Grey and early Molecule Man failed to get through?

this idea that Storm can't affect the air inside sue shield has already been debunked.... sorry. if storm's power can affect the weather outside of sue's shield while Storm is inside of sue's shield , the opposite obviously is true.

@Phylos said:

@nickthedevil said:

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

I wouldn't consider it a drop. FF really are not much of a threat to Storm especially when the battle starts off 5 miles apart. The true threat is Sue, but the distance really works in Storm's favor here, and cyke just helps seals the deal on this victory.

I wouldn't mind if it was debunked with any sense, but obviously that's not a consideration here. Sue regulates her shields, if Storm could manipulate the air outside while being inside a shield it's because a) Sue let her, it was necessary and b)convenient to the plot. The early Molecule Man himself said he couldn't do anything to Sue when her shield was up, and you expect me to believe Storm can? Storm? How do you think the whole suffocating people with the shield works? In Fantastic Four #28 Sue took out Jean by trapping her within a force field, and Jean's PSIONIC powers didn't help her.

FF wins even with Johnny at pre-600 levels. Post-600, FF slaughterhouse.

@butterflykyss: Ah, okay. I thought you meant that scan showed her messing around in her shield or something, carry on then.

@Decoy Elite said:

@butterflykyss: That wind isn't in Sue's shield, it's below it.

I believe the theory is that while Storm was inside Sue's force field she could still effect the wind outside of it, meaning Sue's field did not negate Storm's connection to the atmosphere, which is always on and automatic. Conversely, it could possibly work the other way around if Storm is outside the field. I haven't seen Sue pitted against an air manipulator in battle to know for sure but that is the thoery that the scan has raised.

@CitizenBane said:

@butterflykyss said:

@CitizenBane said:

What part of "Storm can't affect the air inside Sue's shields" is so hard to understand, when Sersi, Jean Grey and early Molecule Man failed to get through?

this idea that Storm can't affect the air inside sue shield has already been debunked.... sorry. if storm's power can affect the weather outside of sue's shield while Storm is inside of sue's shield , the opposite obviously is true.

@Phylos said:

@nickthedevil said:

I really want to know what's dropped the Fantastic Four to the level of just Storm and Cyclops....

I wouldn't consider it a drop. FF really are not much of a threat to Storm especially when the battle starts off 5 miles apart. The true threat is Sue, but the distance really works in Storm's favor here, and cyke just helps seals the deal on this victory.

I wouldn't mind if it was debunked with any sense, but obviously that's not a consideration here. Sue regulates her shields, if Storm could manipulate the air outside while being inside a shield it's because a) Sue let her, it was necessary and b)convenient to the plot. The early Molecule Man himself said he couldn't do anything to Sue when her shield was up, and you expect me to believe Storm can? Storm? How do you think the whole suffocating people with the shield works? In Fantastic Four #28 Sue took out Jean by trapping her within a force field, and Jean's PSIONIC powers didn't help her.

FF wins even with Johnny at pre-600 levels. Post-600, FF slaughterhouse.

You are seriously reaching now. All of what you said is pure speculation, which is not supported anywhere by the dialogue or scan provided. Nowhere does it suggest that Sue "let" Storm use her power across the field or that she regulated her field so that Storm could do so. And as you should know, comics at this time always went into detail as to what was being shown on the panel as you can see in box in the same panel. Nowhere does it say "SUE IS REGULATING HER FIELD TO ALLOW STORM TO USE HER POWERS TO SLOW THEIR DESCENT." So again you are reaching, and badly might I add. To your next point, Molecule Man and Jean Grey are not Storm, simple as that. So try as you may to justify it, the scan doesn't lie and its the best thing we have to determine how this match would go. I'm sure the Marvel writers and team at the time this was written understood how Storm's power's worked as well as Sue well enough. Sorry..

With Johnny what you said is just a big No. As I stated about Johnny, he needs oxygen to utilize his powers and Storm controls that. Besides, STorm has already faced off against Johnny and he lost badly. So yeah both your arguments have been debunked Sorry :D

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@butterflykyss: That wind isn't in Sue's shield, it's below it.

I believe the theory is that while Storm was inside Sue's force field she could still effect the wind outside of it, meaning Sue's field did not negate Storm's connection to the atmosphere, which is always on and automatic. Conversely, it could possibly work the other way around if Storm is outside the field. I haven't seen Sue pitted against an air manipulator in battle to know for sure but that is the thoery that the scan has raised.

Thank you dahling!! Beautifully said :)

@butterflykyss said:

You are seriously reaching now. All of what you said is pure speculation, which is not supported anywhere by the dialogue or scan provided. Nowhere does it suggest that Sue "let" Storm use her power across the field or that she regulated her field so that Storm could do so. And as you should know, comics at this time always went into detail as to what was being shown on the panel as you can see in box in the same panel. Nowhere does it say "SUE IS REGULATING HER FIELD TO ALLOW STORM TO USE HER POWERS TO SLOW THEIR DESCENT." So again you are reaching, and badly might I add. To your next point, Molecule Man and Jean Grey are not Storm, simple as that. So try as you may to justify it, the scan doesn't lie and its the best thing we have to determine how this match would go. I'm sure the Marvel writers and team at the time this was written understood how Storm's power's worked as well as Sue well enough. Sorry..

With Johnny what you said is just a big No. As I stated about Johnny, he needs oxygen to utilize his powers and Storm controls that. Besides, STorm has already faced off against Johnny and he lost badly. So yeah both your arguments have been debunked Sorry :D

It is common sense, and anyone with at least some degree of intelligence can work it out. Give it a shot.

FACT: Sue has contained other people inside her shield. They need oxygen. She has contained novas inside her shield. They need oxygen. Therefore, Sue's shields can allow the flow of oxygen inside them.

FACT: Sue has suffocated people by enclosing their heads inside a shield. The Super-Skrull has a weaker version of her powers and he has also done it. Therefore, Sue's shields can cut off the flow of oxygen inside them.

LOGICAL CONCLUSION: Sue regulates the conditions inside and outside her shield.

No reaching. No speculation. All it takes is an assembly of facts and some basic deduction. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp. If Sue had not allowed Storm to control the air outside the shield, they would have fallen. Obviously, that would have done nothing for the plot. It's as simple as that. Molecule Man controls everything, he controls the air to a degree that is a hundred times superior to Storm's. He's the Molecule Man. And he failed. Jean's power is psionic, just as Storm's is. She failed. Evidently you have no idea how Sue's powers work. Sorry......

You haven't even read FF #600, have you? Current Johnny would solo without breaking a sweat, he has the cosmic control rod and commands the Annihilation Wave. There is nothing Storm can do against them. Both your arguments are garbage. Sorry :D

@Decoy Elite said:

@butterflykyss: Ah, okay. I thought you meant that scan showed her messing around in her shield or something, carry on then.

why thank you..

Cyclops solos.