Steve Rodgers vs Bruce Wayne

Steve is superior physically & closely skilled, though I give the overall edge in martial prowess to Batman.

People don't think Batman's a master of every martial art when he actually is. He's a master of every martial in his universe, & has displayed his martial prowess more often & better than Cap has.

Sigh @ Conner who thinks Batman's top reaction speed is 200 milliseconds, likely because he thinks that Batman is just human, so he can't possibly be any faster.

Cap wins due to superior physicals, his other enhancements, & close skill.

@tracy: the fighting scale changes,, sometimes danny and panther will be 7's and sometimes they will be 6's..it doesn't really matter because their feats prove they are above that....it really just depends on the writer.... I think echo would be a seven btw....but I don't put her in fist or panthers league

But if Panther has mastered all of the forms of fighting why is he is a 6? Same with Cap, Steve to my knowledge has never been a 7 fighter, but even if it is, his stats are inconsistent. Sometimes he is a 6, sometimes he is a 7, Bucky in one site was stated to be a 7 so what would that be? Is Bucky more skilled than Cap then? The same with Panther, sometimes he is rated a 6 and sometimes he is rated a 7, it's seems Marvel sometimes just can't make up their minds. But here is one person who is always consistent being a 7 fighter no matter where you go, Wolverine.

As for Panther beating Wolverine, that is highly debatable, in fact I would even disagree. How does he beat Wolverine? Does he have prep? Does he get the herbs? Does he have the vibranium suit? There has to be stipulations for this match to guarantee how Panther should beat Logan

Danny a 6? Wow, guess it really depends on the writer. All I know is that definately Cap is a 6 fighter like Panther, lol not even in Marvel stats, even in the Marvel vs Capcom 3 (for PS3) video game Cap is listed as a 6 while Wolverine is listed as a 7. I guess even Capcom knows Cap is lower than Wolverine in skill (lol)

@tracy: Marvel stats are just arbitrary numbers, by feats BP stomps Cap.

I don't think I've ever seen BP at a 7, I've always seen him and DD at a 5. Of course their feats prove that quality > quantity.

@tracy: Yeah the level fighter ranking for marvel characters are tricky.

As for the BP vs Wolverine fight it is very debatable. But to the KO i can see BP KO or Incaping Logan. But to the Death Logan has got it though.

@tracy: wolverine is a six too or is most of the time.. i think taskmaster and echo are 6's with potential of being 7's??.. black panther has on panel mastering all styles,, I am not sure about wolverine ever being on panel of mastering all tho... which really doesn't mean anything. ..its wins and losses that do....so I don't really put much stock in the ratings except if I want to know speed....the top 6 or so in marvel will mostly all have wins over each other and when good guys fight each other there will usually be circumstances and one is usually holding back...cap's skill is a notch below the top 4 in skill but he can beat them with physicals and smarts...

Steve does have a slight physical advantage over Bruce, however Bruce does have more skill in Martial Arts and in my opinion a better thinker.

Still, Cap is no idiot and is quick of the mark on what decisions need to be made to be effective, where as Batman is more the kind of guy who preps before a fight. Bruce may also have mastered 127 styles of fighting and Cap far less, however out of those 127 styles, which will Bruce use that's going to be effective, and is he going to be able to put him down with Caps slight healing factor which eliminates lactic build up giving him near endless endurance.

I do believe if not a stalemate it will come down to endurance where Steve can edge him out.

@jestersmiles:

very true... by feats I think the top two are danny and tchalla, in fact I would probably put dd up there in pure skill feats ahead of logan even though Logan is probably more skilled..

No my friend that is incorrect, Wolverine has never been stated to be a 6, he is always a 7 (which basically means in Marvel master of all hand to hand combat). Captain America and Black Panther are the ones who are rated a 6, sometimes a 7, but their stats are inconsistent, guess what? Bucky is sometimes listed a 7, does that mean he is more skilled than Captain America? Becuase that's like saying Robin is more skilled than Batman, back to my point Wolverine stats are always a 7. Like I said in this thread, 90% of the time is either brawling or slashing away like a madman showing no absolute amount of skill, we can also than the movies (Jackman) was well.

The only thing about most Marvel/DC artists use their skill as a will to survive, Cap, D-D, Lady Shiva, Batman, Richard Dragon, Iron-Fist (sometimes), B-P, Bronze Tiger, David Cain and so on is that they use their martial arts as a way of survival. They don't have healing factors like Wolverine so they cannot afford to take damage on their body, that is why I normally say on threads that every street level who is a martial artist (well, most of them) are more disciplined than Wolverine. Here's a scan of Black Panther telling Wolverine how he normally fights in situations:

Trust me, you don't wanna know what happened before and after this scan

But like I said that it depends the circumstances of the fight, see it in this way:

a) Black Panther vs Wolverine(Prep)- B-P (Winner)

b) Black Panther vs Wolverine (with vibranium suit)- B-P (Winner)

c) Black Panther vs Wolverine (no vibranuim suit)- Wolverine (Winner)

@tracy said:

@axle124 said:

@tracy: wolverine is a six too or is most of the time.. i think taskmaster and echo are 6's with potential of being 7's??.. black panther has on panel mastering all styles,, I am not sure about wolverine ever being on panel of mastering all tho... which really doesn't mean anything. ..its wins and losses that do....so I don't really put much stock in the ratings except if I want to know speed....the top 6 or so in marvel will mostly all have wins over each other and when good guys fight each other there will usually be circumstances and one is usually holding back...cap's skill is a notch below the top 4 in skill but he can beat them with physicals and smarts...

No my friend that is incorrect, Wolverine has never been stated to be a 6, he is always a 7 (which basically means in Marvel master of all hand to hand combat). Captain America and Black Panther are the ones who are rated a 6, sometimes a 7, but their stats are inconsistent, guess what? Bucky is sometimes listed a 7, does that mean he is more skilled than Captain America? Becuase that's like saying Robin is more skilled than Batman, back to my point Wolverine stats are always a 7. Like I said in this thread, 90% of the time is either brawling or slashing away like a madman showing no absolute amount of skill, we can also than the movies (Jackman) was well.

The only thing about most Marvel/DC artists use their skill as a will to survive, Cap, D-D, Lady Shiva, Batman, Richard Dragon, Iron-Fist (sometimes), B-P, Bronze Tiger, David Cain and so on is that they use their martial arts as a way of survival. They don't have healing factors like Wolverine so they cannot afford to take damage on their body, that is why I normally say on threads that every street level who is a martial artist (well, most of them) are more disciplined than Wolverine. Here's a scan of Black Panther telling Wolverine how he normally fights in situations:

Trust me, you don't wanna know what happened before and after this scan

To be fair the marvel rating system is inaccurate according to feats... The last three times wolverine and bp squared off were draws or no contest?? and I am pretty sure feat for feat BP > Logan... I think bp is a 5 most of the time and he is on panel as saying he has mastered all martial arts,, so those ratings are typically wrong... I don't remember Logan ever saying he even knows all martial arts, which btw doesn't mean anything because Daredevil is just as skilled as them and he only has mastered 6 or a few more.... Iron Fist is listed as a 6 and he surely is above wolvie in skill...The number of styles thing is more of a guideline to say hey this guy is good.... I mean bruce mastered 127 styles but I wouldn't put him in the top 5 of dc or marvel according to feats...

@newecho said:

@tracy said:

@axle124 said:

@tracy: wolverine is a six too or is most of the time.. i think taskmaster and echo are 6's with potential of being 7's??.. black panther has on panel mastering all styles,, I am not sure about wolverine ever being on panel of mastering all tho... which really doesn't mean anything. ..its wins and losses that do....so I don't really put much stock in the ratings except if I want to know speed....the top 6 or so in marvel will mostly all have wins over each other and when good guys fight each other there will usually be circumstances and one is usually holding back...cap's skill is a notch below the top 4 in skill but he can beat them with physicals and smarts...

No my friend that is incorrect, Wolverine has never been stated to be a 6, he is always a 7 (which basically means in Marvel master of all hand to hand combat). Captain America and Black Panther are the ones who are rated a 6, sometimes a 7, but their stats are inconsistent, guess what? Bucky is sometimes listed a 7, does that mean he is more skilled than Captain America? Becuase that's like saying Robin is more skilled than Batman, back to my point Wolverine stats are always a 7. Like I said in this thread, 90% of the time is either brawling or slashing away like a madman showing no absolute amount of skill, we can also than the movies (Jackman) was well.

The only thing about most Marvel/DC artists use their skill as a will to survive, Cap, D-D, Lady Shiva, Batman, Richard Dragon, Iron-Fist (sometimes), B-P, Bronze Tiger, David Cain and so on is that they use their martial arts as a way of survival. They don't have healing factors like Wolverine so they cannot afford to take damage on their body, that is why I normally say on threads that every street level who is a martial artist (well, most of them) are more disciplined than Wolverine. Here's a scan of Black Panther telling Wolverine how he normally fights in situations:

Trust me, you don't wanna know what happened before and after this scan

To be fair the marvel rating system is inaccurate according to feats... The last three times wolverine and bp squared off were draws or no contest?? and I am pretty sure feat for feat BP > Logan... I think bp is a 5 most of the time and he is on panel as saying he has mastered all martial arts,, so those ratings are typically wrong... I don't remember Logan ever saying he even knows all martial arts, which btw doesn't mean anything because Daredevil is just as skilled as them and he only has mastered 6 or a few more.... Iron Fist is listed as a 6 and he surely is above wolvie in skill...The number of styles thing is more of a guideline to say hey this guy is good.... I mean bruce mastered 127 styles but I wouldn't put him in the top 5 of dc or marvel according to feats...

I thought Iron-Fist was a 7, I've never seen him rated a 6 and you are right about something though, I too I have seen Logan state that he mastered all form of fighting to man. His only quote I know of is "I'm the best at what I do, and what I do isn't pretty." But pretty much Marvel rates him as a 7, I don't know why, maybe because he has lived so long.....150 years-200 years? I'm not sure myself but everything else you say I agree with, B-P is listed a 6, like Cap......but sometimes you have to look at their skill feats and not just take what a Marvel database states.

Hey, I'm a Wolverine fan but I never even knew he had martial arts when I first read his comics and watched his shows (the animated series). I couldn't agree more with B-P on what he says on that scan......

@tracy:

I have that marvel unlimited so I have been going back a rereading comics from 2003.. I put in my library every major title from the 616 and just started reading them in order as they came out...Wolverine's title is very well written but he does tend to do his bezerker mode more than I remember lol... I am actually enjoying bendis' run on daredevil and I never thought I would like anything he did after how he handled ultimate spidey....

Bruce...Cap with his shield could pull it off, but in pure Hand-to-Hand, i don't think so...their stats are just about equal (by feats) though Cap's should be a bit higher...appart from that, i think that its important to realize, that while Cap knows alot of different martial arts styles, Bruce has mastered alot of different martial arts styles...127 to be precise...Bruce is more skilled than Cap, and skill trumps physical atributes in my book, unless the gap difference in stats, its too big to overcome, which is not the case, here.

Cap has better strength and speed feats.

But I am tired of hearing that Batman's speed would be like someone standing still for marvel characters.

This is not the idiotic fake realistic batman that nearly destroyed DC in the 1970s and 1980s. This is the no look arrow catching Batman of pulp noir super awesome martial arts.

This is the Bruce Wayne tthat can fight in total darkness without night vision because he was TRAINED to.

I heard that his reaction time can only realistically be .2 at best.

The average reaction time for people is .2, not the max reaction time for real life people.

Think about this concept from the realists. The only way for a comic character to be realistic is if the best that humans can ever be in a comic book is average for real life. Then, they wonder why comics are such a shrinking business.

And Steve wins this due to SSS.

I hear that Ultimate Marvel powers down some heroes and that is why I normally don't read them, look at that sega comic where Wolverine gets ripped in half by Hulk.....really? Look at Spidey as well, owned by cops....and I hear now he is around 5 tons. Yeah, that is why I don't read ultimate Marvel comics, lol

@tracy: lol... I was talking about the unlimited app where you can read basically every marvel comic ever made...its awesome....the ultimate verse, the street levellers physicals are quite a bit above like steve is twice as strong but people like thor are way powered down...but check that unlimited app out...

I think I've seen a comic where Cap states that he has mastered every fighting style on earth, which is true that Bruce is more skilled, but I think the skill difference between the two is the same difference (as you put it) between Steve's other advantages over Bruce.

Basically this is just another batman vs 'merica, H2H.

An enhanced Batman would defeat Batman but Cap isn't Batman. Batman 11/10

Ayt man

I'm lost

Steve Rogers

Well, Steve has the edge in physicals, Bruce has the edge in skill and they're both very intelligent, but in different ways. Steve has more tactical prowess, i think, while Bruce is more cunning and stealthy. It'd be close, that's for sure.

?...that, would be Lady Shiva's level of skill...i seriously doubt, that he is that good, i would like to see a scan, if you don't mind.

Steve Rogers wins.

Well it has been debated in comic vine that saying something means nothing if you can back it up with feats, Cap is not the only guy who has that he has mastered every fighting style on earth. Him being on Shiva's level is something even I can say would not be true because he is below Bruce Wayne (who is also below Shiva), and given the fact that he is a 6 in Marvel. Trust me friend, Cap is not on Shiva's level of skill. As for the scan, maybe this can help, go to one of the Iron-Fist vs Captain America threads, that's where I saw the scan (Cap claiming to have mastered every fighting style), if you can't find it I'll try looking for it.

Steve Rogers ever single time.

It is close I agree, here's a link from Comic Vine where he beats Cross-bones (who has known to give Cap a hard time in the past) without the serum

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/captain-america-vs-iron-fist-read-first-547202/

Wow, I wouldn't put Spidey in the ranks of Flash or Quicksilver (lol)

@tracy: well the point I was making at that time had to do with Bruce's speed..he isn't spiderman fast which if you read everything me and him were talking about, he was trying to make it like bruce was faster than bullets.... I was trying to explain to him that bruce was a bullet timer, a high end bullet timer but still a bullet timer.....I also explained that steve sees bullets slow down which I provided a scan of, which means he can process the bullet moving and then react...spiderman isn't quicksilver fast but he is still 15 times faster than bruce(peak human)...and basically I was saying bruce isn't even as fast as spidey....much less the other two

Steve would win. He's stronger, faster, is adept at every form of H2H, and due to the SSS can instinctively adapt to every fighting style.

In the first picture, Cap dodges a bullet after it's been fired. Bucky clearly shoots at a stationary Cap, then Cap dodges.

In the second picture, a gunman fires at Cap and Cap is able to see the bullets and throw his shield to deflect two of them. And dodges one. I have more scans of Cap's reflex feats if any are interested.

We've also already saw is "I see faster" scan.

Now for some H2H feats.

In the first picture Cap states he is adept at every form of H2H combat known to man.

Picture 2 has Black Panther thinking on Cap's ability to "adapt instinctively to every situation and every fighting style". Note: It's been stated that Panther has studied every fighting style in the world.

Cap has stalemated or beaten some of Marvel's best martial artists. Black Panther, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, etc.

I have more pictures if any is interested.

Bats' skill advantage, if any, is slight here. Not enough to give him an advantage, over Steve. IMO.

Ayt man my bad I get your point now but to be honest someone in comic vine stated that bullets in comics job a lot to DC/Marvel characters, do you know how fast a bullet is. All street levels shouldn't be dodging bullets, well there is always an exception for guys like Spidey (spider-sense) and Iron-Fist (chi grants him super human speed). Look, it doesn't matter how people in this thread look at this battle, Steve is faster (running or reaction time), stronger (lifting and striking power), agile, has a higher stamina, more durable and has better reflexes SIMPLY because of the serum no matter how Bruce pushes his body to perfection.

The only advantage Bruce has over Steve is intelligence and skill, now the question is, who will strike first. Patrat 18 mentioned that Bruce could use the leopard blow (a move she was taught by Shiva), and someone else here in this thread mentioned that Bruce can incapacitate a man without making him bleed in 400 plus moves.....now that is skill. Another someone mentioned in this thread was that Bruce has mastered all martial arts styles while Steve has adopted to it. Now this actually makes me see this fight as a standstill.

If Bruce used the leopard blow on Steve then that would definitely guarantee a victory for Bruce but then the question, who will strike first between the two? From my opinion, I would say it's probably the guy who is faster and that would be Steve....but a case can be made for Wayne as well.

My question now is to Patrat 18, how well do you think Steve would fair off against the likes of Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, David Cain, Bronze Tiger and oh yes Cassandra Cain?

Steve Rogers no question

@tg1982 said:

Now for some H2H feats.

In the first picture Cap states he is adept at every form of H2H combat known to man.

Picture 2 has Black Panther thinking on Cap's ability to "adapt instinctively to every situation and every fighting style". Note: It's been stated that Panther has studied every fighting style in the world.

Cap has stalemated or beaten some of Marvel's best martial artists. Black Panther, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, etc.

I have more pictures if any is interested.

Bats' skill advantage, if any, is slight here. Not enough to give him an advantage, over Steve. IMO.

Nice scans, but when has Cap beaten Task Master? If I recall, their only confrontation was when Task Master took a cheap shot on a distracted Cap when he was trying to escape the Avengers mansion (I think I saw that scan in the Wolverine vs Taskmaster thread)

@axle124:

Guys it doesn't matter if Bruce and Cap are in the top 8 or not because DC martial artists are considerably more skilled than Marvel martial artists. (Bronze Tiger, Constatine Drakon, Shiva, King Snake, Richard Dragon, and Cass are all at least as good as the Number 1 fighter in marvel.... Sensei by himself would stomp any martial artist in Marvel.)

It was during Dan Jurgens' run on Captain America. They were fighting on top of the Brooklyn or G.W. Bridge. They also fought during the Battle Scars mini series though the outcome was never shown, Cap was able to stop him from killing Fury Jr.

@chu42t: uh no the top 5 of dc is equal to the top five in marvel...black panther, iron fist, wolverine, and daredevil are just as skilled as anyone in dc...you say drakon is as skilled as them? But his only feat is speed blitzing connor hawke and red arrow.... he has never shown skill, just speed.... most of the time you have to nerf the marvel character ie wolverine's healing factor or tchalla's herb, or iron fist's chi manipulation to make it more fair...the skill is no different tho... btw sensei wouldn't have the same effect on marvel guys because he can't fight long so he wouldn't be able to fight anyone in the top 5 of marvel except matt because of iron fist can heal himself, wolverine same thing and bp's physicals and suit will allow him to dodge him to tire him out....

@tracy: well the leopard blow is a lethal blow which he wouldn't use, and his intelligence is above Steve's but his combat intelligence isn't any better so if bruce got his toys then that would matter... comic book characters like bruce and black panther are high end bullet timers which means they are just moving before you shoot... characters such as quicksilver and even Spider-Man actually can see the bullets as if they are slowed down...steve does that also to a lesser extent than Spider-Man. ..he can see a bullets and then move, not move before you shoot... the battle comes down to if you believe steve's physicals are above Bruce's and his skill is at least close to Bruce's. ...that is really what it comes down to...

@axle124: I dont believe Daredevil is on the top 5, and anyways, Drakon blitzing 2 top tier fighters (one who gave Shiva a hard time) requires astounding amounts of speed. Skill wont matter if hes not meta and all he has is speed. While he may not be as skilled, defeating 2 master martial artists in seconds still means he could defeat any Marvel martial artist easily.

And Cass dodges bullets after they are fired, shes not meta.

@chu42t: no drakon couldn't because the marvel guys are just as fast ie danny, panther, and logan...not to mention people like the gorgon.... and cass has a couple of feats like that are borderline meta but that is it... she has one where they went really crazy and made her out run a bullet but they are by no means consistent with her... and her body reading makes her appear faster.... drakon defeated two top martial artist?? Hawke has the weird reputation because he stalemated shiva and a non cannon stalemate with dragon that he is in the top tier of dc...he has no real feats to be in that tier tho and roy is a c level fighter who tim drake could beat..so no drakon isn't beating the top tier of marvel.....I put dd up there because much like cass and her body reading, his radar is that good if not better...only thing with him is you can use that against him if you deduct he is blind

@chu42t said:

@axle124: I dont believe Daredevil is on the top 5, and anyways, Drakon blitzing 2 top tier fighters (one who gave Shiva a hard time) requires astounding amounts of speed. Skill wont matter if hes not meta and all he has is speed. While he may not be as skilled, defeating 2 master martial artists in seconds still means he could defeat any Marvel martial artist easily.

And Cass dodges bullets after they are fired, shes not meta.

I wouldn't put Dare-Devil in the Marvel top 5 either, because a few people come to mind who are more skilled than, Wolverine, Captain America, Black Panther, Iron-Fist and obviously Mantis (or is it Manta?). Who is this Drakon, any scan of him? Because he sure as hell must be skilled if he can take on Shiva, none the less fight her and someone else at the same time.

But hasn't Task-Master laid waste to Cap though? This happened at the Avengers mansion where Task Master was able to knock Cap down and run away, but a lot of people consider that fight to be PIS.....I'll try looking for that scan

Well if I can give my opinion

Cass and Lady Shiva would defeat Cap due to body reading techniques and them also possesing nerve strike moves. And Shiva won't hesitate to use the lepords blow.

Bronze Tiger and Dragon Would fair very well against Cap. It can honestly go either way, there that skilled.

And David Cain would be iffy, but Cap should pull a solid majority.

@lxlgiftedlxl: I agree with your assessment,,, Cass and shiva are way faster than bats tho,, and shiva is on a different level of skill than is bats.. Cass' skill isn't quite as good but her body reading is borderline meta so she would definitely beat cap...bronze tiger in his early days would wipe the floor with cap but that isn't the case anymore,, and dragon would beat him too but again both of them are >>> bruce in skill... David Cain doesn't have any feats even though his position and importance gives the illusion that he should be great,,so he doesn't come close in my opinion....

@tracy:

its mantis... but I don't count her or gamora because well they don't have many feats against the mainstream guys like the caps and bruce's of the world... I do believe both could beat any in marvel tho except maybe iron fist... The reason I have matt in my top four is because of his radar,,much like cass is with her body reading, he defeats people with that.. But people like ogun, echo, the gorgon, and even taskmaster are technically more skilled than him... But I believe he would win the majority over those guys due to his radar.. Drakon is an arrow villain who has maybe 15 to 20 appearances and basically fought connor hawke when he was green arrow,, his feats are speed based tho and he gets overrated because of that....