Yoda blitzing Sue Storm is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in any thread ever. "
Could you at least present a counter argument? "
Sue Storm's reaction time is good enough that she can put up a forcefield before Yoda can do anything.Unless Yoda is faster than Storm or Ragnarok's lightning,Gladiator,Namor,or Hyperstorm. "
How fast were they moving when they attacked her? Because if you are insinuating that Gladiator was flying at top speed or anything close to it when there was no stating of his speed in the narration at any point, then it only proves so much. And honestly, even if they were moving at top speed, then it just makes no sense for a character with no superhuman physical attributes to manage that. It would be like suggesting Deathstroke can outreact Flash or Superman because he has evaded them before. All it actually proves is that they were not using their speed to the fullest and that Slade is capable of predicting their movements and decisions in combat due to his tactical intellect and understanding of their powers. As for lightning, it travels at different speeds depending on the location and environment. Not all lightning moves at the same velocities.
How fast were they moving when they attacked her? Because if you are insinuating that Gladiator was flying at top speed or anything close to it when there was no stating of his speed in the narration at any point, then it only proves so much. And honestly, even if they were moving at top speed, then it just makes no sense for a character with no superhuman physical attributes to manage that. It would be like suggesting Deathstroke can outreact Flash or Superman because he has evaded them before. All it actually proves is that they were not using their speed to the fullest and that Slade is capable of predicting their movements and decisions in combat due to his tactical intellect and understanding of their powers. As for lightning, it travels at different speeds depending on the location and environment. Not all lightning moves at the same velocities. "
I'm not at all insinuating that Gladiator was moving at top speed.The speed he blitzed Thor at wasn't his top speed but it was pretty fast.Not all lightning moves at the same velocities but this is comics though..real lightning doesn't apply.I'm sure you've seen plenty feats hitting superhumans before the react or before they can reach a certain point from elemental characters.
StarKiller was pulling down Tie Fighters and Star Destroyers.......and Made Sidious and Vader kneel before him in battle... Ironman has absolutley no chance in hell....
Boba Fett and Black Panther are great match ups.... Hard to say who wins thatone....
Darth Vader vs War Machine General Grievous vs Spiderman Darth Maul vs Gambit Mace Windu vs Iron Fist Yoda vs Invisible Woman Boba Fett vs Black Panther Jango Fett vs Punisher Obi-Wan vs Storm Luke Skywalker vs Venom Count Dooku vs Electro Aura Sing vs Deadpool (KO) Durge (KO) vs Iron Patriot Ahsoka Tano vs Wolverine Darth Sidious vs Hulk Starkiller vs Iron Man
Everyone in Star Wars absolutely DESTROYS their Marvel opponents.
" StarKiller was pulling down Tie Fighters and Star Destroyers.......and Made Sidious and Vader kneel before him in battle... Ironman has absolutley no chance in hell....
Enough with this already.
@Vance Astro said:
" @Silver2467 said:
How fast were they moving when they attacked her? Because if you are insinuating that Gladiator was flying at top speed or anything close to it when there was no stating of his speed in the narration at any point, then it only proves so much. And honestly, even if they were moving at top speed, then it just makes no sense for a character with no superhuman physical attributes to manage that. It would be like suggesting Deathstroke can outreact Flash or Superman because he has evaded them before. All it actually proves is that they were not using their speed to the fullest and that Slade is capable of predicting their movements and decisions in combat due to his tactical intellect and understanding of their powers. As for lightning, it travels at different speeds depending on the location and environment. Not all lightning moves at the same velocities. "
I'm not at all insinuating that Gladiator was moving at top speed.The speed he blitzed Thor at wasn't his top speed but it was pretty fast.Not all lightning moves at the same velocities but this is comics though..real lightning doesn't apply.I'm sure you've seen plenty feats hitting superhumans before the react or before they can reach a certain point from elemental characters. "
This really is not quantifiable then. I have seen Sue generate force fields to protect from bullets and energy attacks. So, bullet timing, yes, but these feats are not very applicable.
@Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon.
Novels are more essential reading than comics though.
" @Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon. Novels are more essential reading than comics though. "
I don't know much about Star Wars characters.I only threw my two cents in because thread appeared one-sided and pointless.
" @Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon. Novels are more essential reading than comics though. "
I don't know much about Star Wars characters.I only threw my two cents in because thread appeared one-sided and pointless. "
" @Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon. Novels are more essential reading than comics though. "
I don't know much about Star Wars characters.I only threw my two cents in because thread appeared one-sided and pointless. "
" @Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon. Novels are more essential reading than comics though. "
I don't know much about Star Wars characters.I only threw my two cents in because thread appeared one-sided and pointless. "
" @Vance Astro: Most are canon. There are some that are N-Canon (non-canon), like Star Wars: Infinities, and there are some, like Star Wars: Tales, that are collections of stories, some of which are canon and some of which are not. But for the most part, barring a few N-Canon/S-Canon series and retconned story lines, everything else is canon. Novels are more essential reading than comics though. "
I don't know much about Star Wars characters.I only threw my two cents in because thread appeared one-sided and pointless. "
Darth Vader vs War Machine General Grievous vs Spiderman Darth Maul vs Gambit Mace Windu vs Iron Fist Yoda vs Invisible Woman Boba Fett vs Black Panther Jango Fett vs Punisher Obi-Wan vs Storm Luke Skywalker vs Venom Count Dooku vs Electro Aura Sing vs Deadpool (KO) Durge (KO) vs Iron Patriot Ahsoka Tano vs Wolverine Darth Sidious vs Hulk (Stomped to squishy stuff) Starkiller vs Iron Man
" Darth Vader vs War Machine General Grievous vs Spiderman Darth Maul vs Gambit Mace Windu vs Iron Fist Yoda vs Invisible Woman Boba Fett vs Black Panther Jango Fett vs Punisher Obi-Wan vs Storm Luke Skywalker vs Venom (Spitestomp.) Count Dooku vs Electro Aura Sing vs Deadpool (KO) Durge (KO) vs Iron Patriot Ahsoka Tano vs Wolverine Darth Sidious vs Hulk (Spitestomp.) Starkiller vs Iron Man "
For Luke, he has telekinetically pushed a few guards against a wall so hard that their torsos burst, rebuilt/destroyed a fortress, supported the weight of starships, held in place/moved a black hole, collapsed an AT-AT, and knocked over a rancor with a gesture, among other feats. He knows abilities such as Protection, Absorption, Deflection, and Barrier that have allowed him to catch blaster bolts in his hands, tank AT-AT blaster bolts, deflect sprays of lava, walk across lava, and withstand heavy impact forces. As for speed, Luke has deflected dozes of blaster bolts in all directions with his lightsaber (before RotS, by the way), dominated Lumiya with his speed, kept up with Caedus while injured, held out against Palpatine's combat speed, moved too fast for any of the Jedi in his Order to notice him (in other words, moving too fast for characters with super speed to notice), has fought fast enough that he appeared to have 20 lightsabers, and other speed feats. Luke also has a heavy amount of versatility, such as his various telepathic abilities (Illusion, Mind Control, Confusion, hypnosis, sleep inducement, etc.), invisibility by use of Force Cloak (he once turned a kilometer and half long ship, the Vagabond, invisible), teleportation by use of Fold Space, immovability (Luke once made himself so immovable that not even a black hole could move him), Precognition, Shatterpoint, the ability to see through walls, Healing, machine shut down/dismantling by use of Ionize, and several other abilities. Luke would wreck Venom. "
@Silver2467 said:
" LOL @ how people think Vader can beat War Machine and Starkiller can beat Iron Man. Yoda and Windu are extremely fast, first of all. You saw a video of Windu in the Clone Wars show. Yoda has similar speed feats to Windu. During his duel with Tyranus, Yoda's lightsaber was creating numerous afterimages, he has blitzed multiple droids, he has deflected dozens of blaster bolts with his lightsaber easily, was described in his duel with Palpatine as "a tornado of feet and fist and blades" (Yoda is not as fast as Sidious is, but the fact that he was able to fight is speaks volumes), and he has other speed feats. For strength, Yoda has been able to throw melee strikes with superhuman force and carried a massive cannon in a crate on his back, seemingly for miles. Yoda's telekinetic feats have allowed him to crush and break through durable surfaces; send more than a dozen enemies flying with one Push; lift and move starships during combat, sometimes doing so in order to crash enemy fighters into one another; was effortlessly throwing senate pods during his duel with Palpatine (in the EU, not the movie, obviously); knows Lightsaber Throw; and has simulated telekinetic lightsaber combat, as a few examples. Sue's shields are resistant/immune to psi-based powers, but Force-derived Telekinesis and Telepathy are not psi-based. They are simply an application of Force energies. So, it could be argued that he could penetrate her shield telekinetically (considering the power he can generate from his telekinetic bursts). Even if this were to fail, Yoda can simply blitz Sue. As for Iron Fist, I read The Immortal Iron Fist annual; so I know what instance you are referring to with his catching a bullet. But that really is not sufficient. Both Yoda and Windu fight faster than bullets. And even if they were only equal to or slightly slower, Danny only caught one bullet. He would not be prepared to avoid numerous saber slashes in multiple directions. Windu has speed feats such as being invisible to Anakin during to his duel with Sidious (Anakin is very fast as well, by the way), fighting so fast that he appeared to have over a dozen lightsabers when he only had one, matching Kar Vastor's combat speed, matching Tyranus' combat speed, holding his own against Sidious (Palpatine appeared as a blur to Windu in their duel, which is not a low showing if you know how fast Sidious is, but Windu still managed to fight against him), and he has other such speed feats. Danny is not fast enough or resilient enough match Windu. "
@Silver2467 said:
None of this is really true. First of all, in the EU, one of the most common descriptions for speed is the inability of spectators to even see the motions of a given Jedi or Sith. This is not uncommon and is something Grievous can replicate. Second, Jedi avoid and deflects attacks because their reflexes and perceptions are accelerated through Force Speed to the extent that they can register an oncoming threat, react fast enough to save themselves from the assault, and in many cases, deflect it back at their attacker. So, yes, they can see it. How could they deflect as many blaster bolts as they do, without effort no less, if they could not even see them? Add to that the fact that they do not simply dodge projectiles, they actually deflect them, and their reaction time feats can easily outweigh most Marvel/DC street levelers. Grievous consistently manages to match Jedi's combat speed (and some of these Jedi are faster than Spider-Man, by the way). "
LOL @ how people think Vader can beat War Machine and Starkiller can beat Iron Man.
"
What is so insane about Vader defeating War Machine? I keep seeing these "LOL@" posts but with no explanation. Of all the matchups here, that doesn't appear to be one of the most lopsided ... to be making that statement. Is War Machine's tech somehow beyond anything a Sith Lord such as Vader would ever have seen before? With star ship capabilities being commonplace and Hyperspace travel and Deathstar weaponized moon stations ... I wouldn't think so. Why can't Vader simply use the force to shut down the suits' weapon systems and tear him right out of the armor or force choke him or use Sith lightning etc.? It seems logical to me that Vader should win this ... anyone have some input?
What is so insane about Vader defeating War Machine? I keep seeing these "LOL@" posts but with no explanation. Of all the matchups here, that doesn't appear to be one of the most lopsided ... to be making that statement.Is War Machine's tech somehow beyond anything a Sith Lord such as Vader would ever have seen before? With star ship capabilities being commonplace and Hyperspace travel and Deathstar weaponized moon stations ...
This is a poor comparison. Vader does not fight other characters in star ships while he himself is out of one. If he was to have an aerial fight with an opponent in a ship, he would pilot his own.
I wouldn't think so.Why can't Vader simply use the force to shut down the suits' weapon systems and tear him right out of the armor
Because Vader does not know Ionize.
or force choke him
Because I somehow doubt Rhodey will just stand there and wait for Vader to Choke him. Ignoring the fact that Choke is not nearly the most effective application of Force Telekinesis and the fact that Vader's best telekinetic feats were entirely separate from Choke, War Machine would be flying at a distance, firing at Vader, as this seems to be a more common tactic for him, and this scenario gives little chance for Vader to use Force Choke. Even if he were to engage Vader in close quarter combat and Vader managed to Choke him, his Choke has been cut off if Vader is staggered or attacked, something that can be easily replicated by a quick projectile attack. So Rhodey losing because of Choke is just not happening.
or use Sith lightning etc.?
Because Vader does not know Lightning. His armor gives no protection against it, and on top of that, his life support systems are fairly susceptible to it. He would likely kill himself if he used Lightning. And how would that even beat War Machine to begin with? Setting aside Vader's inability to use this power, which automatically means a lack of feats with it, Lightning is not so powerful that it would cause any severe damage to War Machine's armor. The only possible way I could see any character (who actually learned Force Lightning) to beat War Machine with it is if they were able to direct the Lightning into the circuitry and machinations of the armor to short it out (which has been done on rare occasions to land vehicles), but in general, Lightning is simply a straightforward, destructive attack rather than a channeled electrical surge through machinery. But even when this has been done, it required time to accomplish, and there is no guarantee that it would have the same effect on the War Machine armor anyway.
It seems logical to me that Vader should win this ... anyone have some input? "
Then study the characters. You are mentioning abilities for Vader that he never even used. War Machine just has too much durability, firepower, and flight speed.
What is so insane about Vader defeating War Machine? I keep seeing these "LOL@" posts but with no explanation. Of all the matchups here, that doesn't appear to be one of the most lopsided ... to be making that statement.Is War Machine's tech somehow beyond anything a Sith Lord such as Vader would ever have seen before? With star ship capabilities being commonplace and Hyperspace travel and Deathstar weaponized moon stations ...
This is a poor comparison. Vader does not fight other characters in star ships while he himself is out of one. If he was to have an aerial fight with an opponent in a ship, he would pilot his own.
I wouldn't think so.Why can't Vader simply use the force to shut down the suits' weapon systems and tear him right out of the armor
Because Vader does not know Ionize.
or force choke him
Because I somehow doubt Rhodey will just stand there and wait for Vader to Choke him. Ignoring the fact that Choke is not nearly the most effective application of Force Telekinesis and the fact that Vader's best telekinetic feats were entirely separate from Choke, War Machine would be flying at a distance, firing at Vader, as this seems to be a more common tactic for him, and this scenario gives little chance for Vader to use Force Choke. Even if he were to engage Vader in close quarter combat and Vader managed to Choke him, his Choke has been cut off if Vader is staggered or attacked, something that can be easily replicated by a quick projectile attack. So Rhodey losing because of Choke is just not happening.
or use Sith lightning etc.?
Because Vader does not know Lightning. His armor gives no protection against it, and on top of that, his life support systems are fairly susceptible to it. He would likely kill himself if he used Lightning. And how would that even beat War Machine to begin with? Setting aside Vader's inability to use this power, which automatically means a lack of feats with it, Lightning is not so powerful that it would cause any severe damage to War Machine's armor. The only possible way I could see any character (who actually learned Force Lightning) to beat War Machine with it is if they were able to direct the Lightning into the circuitry and machinations of the armor to short it out (which has been done on rare occasions to land vehicles), but in general, Lightning is simply a straightforward, destructive attack rather than a channeled electrical surge through machinery. But even when this has been done, it required time to accomplish, and there is no guarantee that it would have the same effect on the War Machine armor anyway.
It seems logical to me that Vader should win this ... anyone have some input? "
Then study the characters. You are mentioning abilities for Vader that he never even used. War Machine just has too much durability, firepower, and flight speed. "
You may disagree, but I consider Vader to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords. As far as his place in history and his role, I would argue that he should rank in a top 5 with the likes of Sidious,Bane,Revan,and Exar Kun ... honorable mentions to Sadow and Tyranus etc. He was the Chosen One and believed to be conceived by midi-chlorians. Although, he sacrificed himself in the end and perhaps never fully reached his total potential because of his struggle with the light and dark. Yet this was his role to bring balance. There was a reason that Sidious sought him out and the Jedi treated his development in such a delicate way. He had great power within him. Although he returned in clone form ... Vader did kill Sidious after all and that should count for something.
(FORCE) Vader has displayed the force choke since he was a Jedi as Annakin. He can use this feat simply by thinking about it. Vader is the most infamous practitioner of the force choke. He only needs a visual of his target. Vader choked an Admiral on the bridge of a flagship while simply viewing him on a monitor screen and relaxing in his meditation chamber. If he isn't toying with him as a simple threat ... he could apply pressure to his heart, his throat, whatever internal organs he likes, and crush him. WM isn't flying away from this considering he can immobilize his opponents as well while this takes place.
Vader could expand the force with a kinetic ripple or a wave like whirlwind and send him spinning out of control in flight. At any point, WM could find himself slamming into a concussive wall of force or a telekinetic fist, have WM's armor force crushed with Rhodey inside, be pushed, pulled, thrown, etc. What is stopping Vader from ripping him right out of the air and slamming him to the ground and force choking him and immobilizing him. From there he could be easily open him up with that saber like a glorified can opener.
(TECH) Any projectiles WM uses could be hurled back at him with lethal velocity. My point about the tech was that a guy in an armored suit with some gattling guns and a wrist rocket isn't necessarily going to make Lord Vader quiver in his boots.
(LIGHTNING) As far as the force lightning is concerned, I admit I've never seen him use it. I just threw it out as an example. I've seen the movies and read a few random books here and there such as the Bane Trilogy, but I don't read any Star Wars comics. So I wasn't sure if he's ever utilized it in some form, at one time or another, in some story line somewhere I'm not aware of. I was also referring to the battle with Marek and Iron-Man and questioning if that is an option for him if he can use lightning. I don't know if you have proof or not that force lightning or force storm manipulation wopuldn't cause havok with a Stark suit and turn him to ash inside. Even if lightning isn't relevant to this battle ... the telekinetic power is enough. If Marek ripped a star destroyer out of the sky, the same could be done to Iron-Man or War Machine.
(IONIZE) If Vader can use telekinetics he can potentially disable the armor. I don't think anyone would argue that Vader could pull a cord out of a light socket across a room with the slightest thought or whim if he wanted to. Why couldn't he dismantle the wiring and connections within the suit. Cause all kinds of problems with internal components. Vader is skilled in robotics and tech in his own right ... certainly enough to know what strings to pull. He could disable him in any number of ways.
(END RESULT) I'm not saying War Machine has no chance of defeating Vader, yet I still see the odds vastly in Vader's favor. To me, this fight could be loosely compared to a fight between: War Machine vs Jean Grey (with telekinetics and martial prowess, a light saber, and in full bloodlust) Vader, while in character, will have absolutely no remorse for this opponent. He is the Dark father of Death and will look to dispatch him as quick and efficiently as possible. He will kill Rhodey and be on his way to deal with more pressing matters.
"You may disagree, but I consider Vader to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords. A "
I'm sorry, but I didn't keep reading. There is really nothing you can say to prove your point.
PROVE IT. Give me feats. The day Darth Vader can kill the population of an entire planet, make suns go nova, open worm holes, and drain the life of an entire population you go ahead and let me know. Until then, you are wrong.
"You may disagree, but I consider Vader to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords. A "
I'm sorry, but I didn't keep reading. There is really nothing you can say to prove your point. PROVE IT. Give me feats. The day Darth Vader can kill the population of an entire planet, make suns go nova, open worm holes, and drain the life of an entire population you go ahead and let me know. Until then, you are wrong. "
I don't really care so much about that to be honest. I simply believe his achievements and role he played is of historical note and worth in the Star Wars universe. Others would agree ... you don't have to. If you didn't keep reading, then you missed the main point of my debate with (Silver2467) anyway. I'm not sure how far you read, but I also noted that I have read a few books but do not read Star wars comics ... just so you are aware. So any comic feats and what is considered canon or not ... I have no clue and I don't really follow the topic closely.
As Anakin he quickly surpassed all other Jedi peers in training and power and saber skill through his development, by leaps and bounds ... leading to his arrogance. Master Yoda sensed that Annakin's development could either be a blessing for the force of Order or plunge the universe into Darkness. Sidious sensed that the balance of power could hinge on Annakin as well and desired him as an apprentice to add that power to his own ... because of this knowledge.
He was still young and inexperienced when he matched Master Kenobi in combat and power. Argueably showing the potential of having more power. I would say that it was Kenobi's wisdom, tactical experience, and reserve that won him that fight. Along with a young boys impulsive behavior, inexperience, and ego which cost Annakin. He did defeat Tyranus in combat, where Obi Wan had failed ... and still wasn't at nearly full potential and had yet to become Vader or studied in the ways of the Dark Side.
On a side note; Argueably Starkiller is nearly on par with the others. Maybe not in tactics, deceit, and historical note ... but maybe in skill and raw power, if you are to take into account the writing of his story line. So he could be thrown in there as well. Although I don't know what is in his background that made him so immensely powerful to surpass a guy that was stated to have the highest and purest form of midichlorian count in history and for Marek to also rival Sidious ... but that is how the character was developed, if accepted, so fair enough for him.
As far as Vader, I already stated that he never was in a position to reach his full potential, but he was referred to as having the potential to be the most powerful force user of all. So granted, he doesn't have the mostfeats of all the Sith Lords to back it up. Although he did train Starkiller in his abilities ... and more importantly, Vader has enough power to deal with the person in this topic. Understand that I simply said Vader could be included in a list of top Sith ... not that he's first on that list. Although I'm getting side tracked and not really looking for a Star Wars debate of Sith Lords. =]
He simply needs to dispatch War Machine in this fight and is fully capable of doing so. I gave plenty of examples of how he could defeat War Machine ... pick one. The idea of someone saying "LOL@ people who think Vader and Starkiller can beat War Machine and Iron Man" is very short sighted in my opinion. I could just as easily say ... LOL@ those who think this is a curb stomp for War Machine and Iron Man.
You guys are the experts here so I'll just shoot the question. Would pre-Mustafar Vader have a chance against War Machine? Or will he be an even easier opponent for the Marvel guy cause he lacked the experience that asthmatic Vader had?
@ssejllenrad: pre or no pre Vader would end war machine easily.....he can repel any thing war machine would toss at him, let alone rip him out the armor.....He can influence the force even from a view screen
You may disagree, but I consider Vader to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords.
When did I ever remark on Vader's power comparatively with other Sith? More importantly though, how does that strengthen your position? Even if Vader was one of the single most powerful Sith Lords in EU canon, that is not a feat by itself. If anything, it would just be ABC logic that does not recognize the full scope of War Machine's abilities, nor does it analyze Vader's powers and feats as opposed to them.
As far as his place in history and his role, I would argue that he should rank in a top 5 with the likes of Sidious,Bane,Revan,and Exar Kun ... honorable mentions to Sadow and Tyranus etc.
No disrespect, but you really need to research the Sith if you think Tyranus should even be mentioned in the same sentence as Naga Sadow.
He was the Chosen One and believed to be conceived by midi-chlorians. Although, he sacrificed himself in the end and perhaps never fully reached his total potential because of his struggle with the light and dark. Yet this was his role to bring balance. There was a reason that Sidious sought him out and the Jedi treated his development in such a delicate way. He had great power within him.
I have a firm grasp of Vader's backstory, thank you. None of this is relevant to the thread in any manner; so I fail to understand where you are planning to go with this.
Although he returned in clone form ... Vader did kill Sidious after all and that should count for something.
Unless you expect Vader to walk up behind War Machine, pick him up, throw him down a shaft, and hope Rhodey suffers from enough CIS to allow this to happen and to forget the fact that he can fly (both of which statements apply to Sidious, by the way), this counts for nothing.
And if that was not what you meant and your point was that Vader was actually a threat to Palpatine....like I said, do your research.
(FORCE) Vader has displayed the force choke since he was a Jedi as Annakin. He can use this feat simply by thinking about it.Vader is the most infamous practitioner of the force choke. He only needs a visual of his target. Vader choked an Admiral on the bridge of a flagship while simply viewing him on a monitor screen and relaxing in his meditation chamber. If he isn't toying with him as a simple threat ... he could apply pressure to his heart, his throat, whatever internal organs he likes, and crush him. WM isn't flying away from this considering he can immobilize his opponents as well while this takes place. Vader could expand the force with a kinetic ripple or a wave like whirlwind and send him spinning out of control in flight. At any point, WM could find himself slamming into a concussive wall of force or a telekinetic fist, have WM's armor force crushed with Rhodey inside, be pushed, pulled, thrown, etc. What is stopping Vader from ripping him right out of the air and slamming him to the ground and force choking him and immobilizing him. From there he could be easily open him up with that saber like a glorified can opener.
Show me one example where Vader has shown the precision to use Choke or (for any other organ in Rhodey's body) Crush on an enemy moving at high speeds in the air. Show me an example where Vader has managed to claim any hold with Choke or Crush while an enemy is firing at him, because I can show examples of Vader losing his grip over an opponent due to flinching from an assault. In regards to you mentioning that War Machine would meet a whirlwind, Vader never used Force Whirlwind. As for simply hurling War Machine telekinetically, he may be able to accomplish something similar to that considering his telekinetic feats, but there are stipulations. For one thing, pushing or throwing War Machine will cause little, if any damage to the armor. Rhodey may simply re-stabilize his position in the air via flight. If Vader were to use a tactic such as using Force Pull to draw Rhodey toward his direction in order to impale him on his lightsaber, he can still be met with the resistance of the suit's flight capabilities pushing War Machine the other way. He is not exempt from being fired upon in this situation either. On top of that, I would favor Rhodey's ability to fire the first shot before Vader has the opportunity to try this. Assuming Vader can use Deflection to protect against bullets (very plausible), he still is not defended against the destructive capacity pitted against him. Vader has some impressive durability and pain tolerance feats, but none of them are at a stage where it can be concluded for him to survive attacks from War Machine. Now, you stated that Vader is able to completely immobilize War Machine. This is debatable, first and foremost, since, while Vader can unleash a fair amount of telekinetic power without serious strain, the majority of his best telekinetic feats required concentration, and as I said above, I find it more likely for Rhodey to shoot first (when understanding that Vader is somewhat slow in combat and has actually hesitated during battles, often times for the desired effect of assessing a situation or creating a "calm before the storm," so to speak). Assuming Vader could immobilize him though, not all of War Machine's weapons necessitate any locomotion on the part of his limbs. He could shoot at Vader with both his hands at his sides by making proper use of his shoulder-mounted cannons, for all it matters.
(TECH)Any projectiles WM uses could be hurled back at him with lethal velocity. My point about the tech was that a guy in an armored suit with some gattling guns and a wrist rocket isn't necessarily going to make Lord Vader quiver in his boots.
And how exactly do you propose Vader send high-velocity bullets and repulsors back at War Machine? His Absorption feats are not such that I would presume he can withstand repulsor fire, and while his reflexes should be sufficient to use Deflection against bullets, what will he do against a barrage of fire from multiple different weapons systems?
He is not sending anything back at War Machine.
(LIGHTNING) As far as the force lightning is concerned, I admit I've never seen him use it. I just threw it out as an example. I've seen the movies and read a few random books here and there such as the Bane Trilogy, but I don't read any Star Wars comics. So I wasn't sure if he's ever utilized it in some form, at one time or another, in some story line somewhere I'm not aware of. I was also referring to the battle with Marek and Iron-Man and questioning if that is an option for him if he can use lightning. I don't know if you have proof or not that force lightning or force storm manipulation wopuldn't cause havok with a Stark suit and turn him to ash inside. Even if lightning isn't relevant to this battle ... the telekinetic power is enough. If Marek ripped a star destroyer out of the sky, the same could be done to Iron-Man or War Machine.
Vader never used Lightning.
Actually, I do. Iron Man has force fields that can protect him from Lightning, and as I said before, channeling Lightning into very particular sectors of the armor to either damage the systems or kill Tony inside it is rarely used. More often than not, it would simply be a destructive power that is not powerful enough to scratch the Iron Man armor. Tony could dodge or evade it through flight as well.
Vader does not have enough telekinetic power to beat War Machine or Iron Man, and neither does Starkiller. I get sick and freaking tired of hearing that Starkiller pulled down a Star Destroyer (and so does JediXMan, just for the record). Read the Force Unleashed novel, or at least read this. Starkiller never pulled a Star Destroyer out of the sky, and (no offense) never mention that again. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/static-shock-and-cole-infamous-vs-starkiller/594264/?page=2
(IONIZE) If Vader can use telekinetics he can potentially disable the armor. I don't think anyone would argue that Vader could pull a cord out of a light socket across a room with the slightest thought or whim if he wanted to. Why couldn't he dismantle the wiring and connections within the suit. Cause all kinds of problems with internal components. Vader is skilled in robotics and tech in his own right ... certainly enough to know what strings to pull.He could disable him in any number of ways.
Ionize is not purely a telekinetic power (there is only so much correlation between the two, in fact), and even if it was, you are reaching that it would be a standard method of victory for Vader to do so here even though he has never displayed this power. That, in effect, overrides his customary strategies during combat settings in benefit for an unused one. Pretending for a minute that Darth Vader did learn Ionize (which is not true), why would he all of a sudden employ that power in this fight as opposed to his others? He never did before; so why now? It should also be pointed out that Ionize is a light side power due to the nature of its use, which was simply a "slight tug on the Force," as Arca Jeth said. Sith powers regulate more more physical motion, relentlessness, and negative emotions behind them. So, not only is Ionize not simply a telekinetic power and not only is it unlikely for Vader to suddenly utilize this even if he had learned it, this is a light side power.
Ionize is off the table.
(END RESULT) I'm not saying War Machine has no chance of defeating Vader, yet I still see the odds vastly in Vader's favor. To me, this fight could be loosely compared to a fight between: War Machine vs Jean Grey (with telekinetics and martial prowess, a light saber, and in full bloodlust) Vader, while in character, will have absolutely no remorse for this opponent. He is the Dark father of Death and will look to dispatch him as quick and efficiently as possible. He will kill Rhodey and be on his way to deal with more pressing matters. "
@ssejllenrad: Despite Pre-Mustafar Vader's speed, I think Post-Mustafar would fare better. He has better durability feats, better Absorption/Deflection feats, and his willingness to win a battle at any cost seems more deadly to me.
@MzombieX said:
As Anakin he quickly surpassed all other Jedi peers in training and power and saber skill through his development, by leaps and bounds ... leading to his arrogance.
False. Anakin was leagues behind the likes of Yoda, Fisto, Mace, Koon, Shaak, Saesee, and several others.
Master Yoda sensed that Annakin's development could either be a blessing for the force of Order or plunge the universe into Darkness. Sidious sensed that the balance of power could hinge on Annakin as well and desired him as an apprentice to add that power to his own ... because of this knowledge.
He was still young and inexperienced when he matched Master Kenobi in combat and power. Argueably showing the potential of having more power. I would say that it was Kenobi's wisdom, tactical experience, and reserve that won him that fight. Along with a young boys impulsive behavior, inexperience, and ego which cost Annakin. He did defeat Tyranus in combat, where Obi Wan had failed ... and still wasn't at nearly full potential and had yet to become Vader or studied in the ways of the Dark Side.
All of us know that Anakin had the potential to be greater than he was, but he never reached that potential due to the Mustafar injuries. So this is a moot point.
As for Anakin defeating Tyranus, that was a low showing on Tyranus' part. Dooku has held his own against Yoda, beaten Obi-Wan twice, briefly fought Windu, beat Ventress, and so on. In truth, I call it an inconsistency.
On a side note; Argueably Starkiller is nearly on par with the others. Maybe not in tactics, deceit, and historical note ... but maybe in skill and raw power, if you are to take into account the writing of his story line. So he could be thrown in there as well. Although I don't know what is in his background that made him so immensely powerful to surpass a guy that was stated to have the highest and purest form of midichlorian count in history and for Marek to also rival Sidious ... but that is how the character was developed, if accepted, so fair enough for him.
As far as Vader, I already stated that he never was in a position to reach his full potential, but he was referred to as having the potential to be the most powerful force user of all. So granted, he doesn't have the mostfeats of all the Sith Lords to back it up. Although he did train Starkiller in his abilities ... and more importantly, Vader has enough power to deal with the person in this topic.
Except that potential power is meaningless in this fight, training Starkiller is about as much a feat as Lady Shiva training Tim Drake, and Vader loses this fight.
Understand that I simply said Vader could be included in a list of top Sith ... not that he's first on that list. Although I'm getting side tracked and not really looking for a Star Wars debate of Sith Lords. =]
Then leave the other Sith out of this. You were the one who originally brought them into this debate, despite their having nothing to do with this.
He simply needs to dispatch War Machine in this fight and is fully capable of doing so. I gave plenty of examples of how he could defeat War Machine ... pick one.
And I soundly refuted these. Vader loses.
The idea of someone saying "LOL@ people who think Vader and Starkiller can beat War Machine and Iron Man" is very short sighted in my opinion. I could just as easily say ... LOL@ those who think this is a curb stomp for War Machine and Iron Man. "
Very true. You could make that comment. The notable difference is that I actually understand what Vader and Starkiller's feats and limitations entail. On the other hand, as you yourself admitted to, you are limited in the knowledge you can present for either one. I can say that and back it up in conversation because I know what his powers are; you don't.
@Silver2467: lol u must not know vader well........dont be too proud of this techological terror youved constructed rhody. the ability to operate and Iron suit is insignificant next to the power of the force! lol
I explained the simplicity of using telekinetics to dismantle internal components. If he can tear apart and entire room and structures with a force feat and pull objects such as machinery, towards or away from him, I don't see why he can't yank some damn wiring and components.
When did I say that you remarked on Vader's comparison to other Sith? I simply was making the point that Vader shouldn't be viewed as without power or ability in this match. Simply to make the point that he shouldn't be taken lightly. Considering you listed other Sith as winning battles and yet Vader can't seem to take on War Machine as if that would be some impossible feat.
The only reason it seems to you to be CIS is because of other showings outside of the movies. Showings that Vader simply doesn't have as much of ... or benefit of. Granted you have random writers that create story lines for books, comics, cartoons, you name it ... whatever they want to sell. They are often stories taking place pre-dating Vader or after the fact. Vader's role is what it was and tied to the movies which are the origin and source of the material anyway. If Sidious was powerful enough to prevent his death and stop Vader ... well then ... perhaps he should have.
You talk about all this range and flying and yet we have a guy who can enforce his will upon an unseen power that could very easily disrupt all of that. Vader has used the force to blast and tear apart everything in a room and if he can yank or pull or levitate and immobilize, I don't see why it is so impossible for him to take Rhodey out of the sky. Wether or not you consider Marek and a star destroyer some canon feat or not, it doesn't change the fact that War Machine is not nearly as large of an object and well within Vader's power to manipulate.
I already mentioned that Vader has choked out a guy casually who wasn't even anywhere in the room with him or nearby. Vader has no reason to threaten or play games in this scenario or make a speech before he dispatches him.
Of course maybe Rhodey could do this or that and maybe Rhodey could resist this or that etc. Yet then again ... maybe Rhodey gets his windpipe crushed and plummets to the ground. The end.
False. Anakin was leagues behind the likes of Yoda, Fisto, Mace, Koon, Shaak, Saesee, and several others. And I soundly refuted these. Vader loses. Then leave the other Sith out of this. You were the one who originally brought them into this debate, despite their having nothing to do with this. Except that potential power is meaningless in this fight, training Starkiller is about as much a feat as Lady Shiva training Tim Drake As for Anakin defeating Tyranus, that was a low showing on Tyranus' part
Yoda and the rest were not his peers. I'm speaking of him as an apprentice and his role in comparison to the new age of Jedi. He was considered exceptional in his development.
and I soundly refuted that. War Machine loses.
They were brought into this debate considering there are Sith Lords featured in this thread.
In order to teach someone something you must first ... also be able to have knowledge of that ability yourself. Unless there was some unseen training from somewhere else he recieved or power he sought on his own, it would be my understanding that Vader was, for the most part, capable of the things Marek was. Even if in fact ... Marek managed to exceed those abilities in power later on.
Of course it was a low showing to you Silver. Because with all the limted showings Vader has ... you seem to feel the need to take everything away from any showings he does in fact have. It would all be CIS or PIS to you if you had it your way. Because of course that strengthens your argument and makes Vader look bad. Or perhaps it's the simple truth, which you are unwilling to accept, that Annakin was simply better than Tyranus in the art of combat. Maybe it was a confirmation of things to come and his great power and potential. Which is why of course he would be feared. Which is the entire point of the story to begin with and as such seems to fit quite perfectly with the events as they unfolded.
I explained the simplicity of using telekinetics to dismantle internal components. If he can tear apart and entire room and structures with a force feat and pull objects such as machinery, towards or away from him, I don't see why he can't yank some damn wiring and components.
This ignores what I said about precision and Vader's inability sustain precise hold over any given portion of an object or person when faced with an oncoming attack. If this were basic Telekinesis, such as Push, Pull, or Throw, then, yes, Vader could still use this while being bombarded with attacks (although if War Machine is firing at him while Vader does this, his telekinetic hold over him will cease because he will be incapacitated/killed by his firepower). He also has no idea about the systematics of the War Machine armor either. He can guess at placements of mandatory circuitry and machinery, but he has no prior knowledge of the suit itself. And in case anyone wants to argue that Vader would already know how the suit operates at some length because of his technical finesse, this is technology manufactured by one Marvel's most experienced and accomplished inventors. It is not tech from his universe where Vader may know its functions beforehand. Also, I have never once seen Vader ascertain information about the workings of a piece of machinery just by looking at it. He usually has to dismantle it and search over the inner components. However, if Vader did gain some knowledge of the War Machine suit's design, understanding the fact that not only can the armor plating tank heavy blunt force damage and energy output but can also preserve the wearer inside it without any jarring of the brain or other organs (as might be caused by an explosion, for instance); without any disorientation from attacks or high-speed flight; and without the underlying circuitry being destroyed by attacks that may throw the armor off-balance or cause it to crash through durable surfaces or take high falls, I can only conclude that the inside of the suit is very durable and well-protected as well. It may not be as resilient as the outer portions but still difficult to damage, or else, like I said, the armor would break from the inside and the wearer would be injured from outside attacks. So Vader would have to be able to use precise telekinetic technique with some decent power behind it at a moment's notice while War Machine flies around, all the while having other concerns such as defending himself from incoming fire (which has proven to throw off his more precise applications of Telekinesis).
So I find it unlikely for Vader to rip out a couple wires and expect the armor to just fall apart.
When did I say that you remarked on Vader's comparison to other Sith?I simply was making the point that Vader shouldn't be viewed as without power or ability in this match. Simply to make the point that he shouldn't be taken lightly. Considering you listed other Sith as winning battles and yet Vader can't seem to take on War Machine as if that would be some impossible feat.
I listed Sidious to defeat Hulk, and Tyranus to defeat Electro. Sidious is exponentially more powerful than Vader is, and Vader vs War Machine =/= Tyranus vs Electro =/= Palpatine vs Hulk. This sounds like ABC logic on three accounts, and as I said before, establishing (in your opinion) that Vader is one of the most powerful Sith Lords is not a feat.
The only reason it seems to you to be CIS is because of other showings outside of the movies. Showings that Vader simply doesn't have as much of ... or benefit of. Granted you have random writers that create story lines for books, comics, cartoons, you name it ... whatever they want to sell. They are often stories taking place pre-dating Vader or after the fact. Vader's role is what it was and tied to the movies which are the origin and source of the material anyway. If Sidious was powerful enough to prevent his death and stop Vader ... well then ... perhaps he should have.
Vader actually has numerous showings outside the movies. It is not just that he lacks feats outside the movies, and so stating that Sidious is more powerful is unfair. It is fair because both have appearances in and outside the movies which showcase their power. As for Sidious flying, do I really have to explain why he didn't (Force Flight not even being created until more than a decade after the original trilogy was released)?
You talk about all this range and flying and yet we have a guy who can enforce his will upon an unseen power that could very easily disrupt all of that. Vader has used the force to blast and tear apart everything in a room and if he can yank or pull or levitate and immobilize, I don't see why it is so impossible for him to take Rhodey out of the sky.
How is destroying a room (which is not even Vader's most impressive telekinetic feat) suggest he can damage or affect War Machine? His armor can withstand much worse than that.
I already mentioned that Vader has choked out a guy casually who wasn't even anywhere in the room with him or nearby.
The circumstances of these are entirely different. On one hand, you have Vader staring at an undefended man on a view-screen using Force Choke, and on the other hand, you have a trained soldier in an armored power suit, equipped with powerful weapons, flight capability, and high-end durability, who will be willingly attacking Vader, not just standing there.
Hard to compare these two scenarios.
Vader has no reason to threaten or play games in this scenario or make a speech before he dispatches him.
I never said anything about Vader making threats or playing games; he never does that anyway. I was conveying what Vader's common attitude and showings in battles sometimes involves.
Wether or not you consider Marek and a star destroyer some canon feat or not, it doesn't change the fact that War Machine is not nearly as large of an object and well within Vader's power to manipulate. Of course maybe Rhodey could do this or that and maybe Rhodey could resist this or that etc. Yet then again ... maybe Rhodey gets his windpipe crushed and plummets to the ground. The end. "
Again, you brushed aside and neglected to respond to a bulk of my post. You presented telekinetic abilities that you thought could allow Vader to defeat War Machine. In turn, I described why I find these to be improbable, but you never even acknowledged it and continued with your stance. If you disagree with the consensus I gave for why Vader's telekinetic powers would more than likely fail against War Machine, then explain why. You can't just say, "Maybe he will do this, or may this will happen instead." Make an argument.
@Silver2467 said:
Show me one example where Vader has shown the precision to use Choke or (for any other organ in Rhodey's body) Crush on an enemy moving at high speeds in the air. Show me an example where Vader has managed to claim any hold with Choke or Crush while an enemy is firing at him, because I can show examples of Vader losing his grip over an opponent due to flinching from an assault. In regards to you mentioning that War Machine would meet a whirlwind, Vader never used Force Whirlwind. As for simply hurling War Machine telekinetically, he may be able to accomplish something similar to that considering his telekinetic feats, but there are stipulations. For one thing, pushing or throwing War Machine will cause little, if any damage to the armor. Rhodey may simply re-stabilize his position in the air via flight. If Vader were to use a tactic such as using Force Pull to draw Rhodey toward his direction in order to impale him on his lightsaber, he can still be met with the resistance of the suit's flight capabilities pushing War Machine the other way. He is not exempt from being fired upon in this situation either. On top of that, I would favor Rhodey's ability to fire the first shot before Vader has the opportunity to try this. Assuming Vader can use Deflection to protect against bullets (very plausible), he still is not defended against the destructive capacity pitted against him. Vader has some impressive durability and pain tolerance feats, but none of them are at a stage where it can be concluded for him to survive attacks from War Machine. Now, you stated that Vader is able to completely immobilize War Machine. This is debatable, first and foremost, since, while Vader can unleash a fair amount of telekinetic power without serious strain, the majority of his best telekinetic feats required concentration, and as I said above, I find it more likely for Rhodey to shoot first (when understanding that Vader is somewhat slow in combat and has actually hesitated during battles, often times for the desired effect of assessing a situation or creating a "calm before the storm," so to speak). Assuming Vader could immobilize him though, not all of War Machine's weapons necessitate any locomotion on the part of his limbs. He could shoot at Vader with both his hands at his sides by making proper use of his shoulder-mounted cannons, for all it matters.
Yoda and the rest were not his peers. I'm speaking of him as an apprentice and his role in comparison to the new age of Jedi. He was considered exceptional in his development.
Fair enough.
They were brought into this debate considering there are Sith Lords featured in this thread.
Sadow, Revan, Bane, and Exar Kun are Sith Lords featured in this thread?
In order to teach someone something you must first ... also be able to have knowledge of that ability yourself. Unless there was some unseen training from somewhere else he recieved or power he sought on his own, it would be my understanding that Vader was, for the most part, capable of the things Marek was. Even if in fact ... Marek managed to exceed those abilities in power later on.
Vader could not himself use Lightning, and how does the fact that Vader trained Starkiller merit the idea that he could manage similar feats or abilities? That would be like saying Kam Solusar was capable of all the things Luke was because Luke trained him. It still is not a feat.
Of course it was a low showing to you Silver. Because with all the limted showings Vader has ... you seem to feel the need to take everything away from any showings he does in fact have. It would all be CIS or PIS to you if you had it your way. Because of course that strengthens your argument and makes Vader look bad.
I like how you admittedly have read only a select few EU novels and comics, and yet, despite my showing more knowledge on Vader than you have in this discussion, you assume my intentions regarding the character. Nice job.
Stop wasting my time with this. I like Vader as a character more than I do War Machine. You are not helping your standpoint by accusing my assertions of some ulterior disdain toward the character. If you have an argument to present, kindly do so. Don't throw around this nonsense here and expect me to take it seriously.
Or perhaps it's the simple truth, which you are unwilling to accept, that Annakin was simply better than Tyranus in the art of combat. Maybe it was a confirmation of things to come and his great power and potential. Which is why of course he would be feared.Which is the entire point of the story to begin with and as such seems to fit quite perfectly with the events as they unfolded. "
Are you still diverting back to potential power as an argument? He lost more than half his potential. It proves nothing.
How is destroying a room (which is not even Vader's most impressive telekinetic feat) suggest he can damage or affect War Machine? His armor can withstand much worse than that.
The circumstances of these are entirely different. On one hadn, you have Vader staring at an undefended man on a view-screen using Force Choke, and on the other hand, you have a trained soldier in an armored power suit, equipped with powerful weapons, flight capability, and high-end durability, who will be willingly attacking Vader, not just standing there.
Again, you brushed aside and neglected to respond to a bulk of my post. You presented telekinetic abilities that you thought could allow Vader to defeat War Machine. In turn, I described why I find these to be improbable, but you never even acknowledged it and continued with your stance. If you disagree with the consensus I gave for why Vader's telekinetic powers would more than likely fail against War Machine, then explain why. You can't just say, "Maybe he will do this, or may this will happen instead." Make an argument.
I was making a simple reference to the fact that he can manipulate, grab, move, toss, throw, immobilize etc ... multiple structures and machinery and so forth through his telekinesis. As such, I was debating why it shouldn't be so difficult of a task for him to do the same to WM. I can't say I know the absolute largest structure or most impressive feat of telekinesis Vader has ever performed. Yet whatever it may be, feel free to mention it if you like. That only serves to further validate the point that he could do the same to Rhodey.
I understand he's in a suit and can fly but I don't think it's impossible for Vader to yank a man out of the air or spin him in whatever direction he likes. Rhodey's throat or heart are no more durable than a standard human being. They are actually very soft, weak, and squishy. The fact that he will be attacking Vader is a valid point considering this is a fight ... but only if he can succeed. Yet Vader will be using the force to defend and attack also. So it all comes down to who can penetrate the others defense first. I personally believe that Vader's telekinesis will win out. It isn't tied down to the same laws of physics and wind and trajectory as Rhodey's equipment is. I personally see this as an advantage.
I have explained why numerous times already. You haven't said much differently on your part. "maybe he breaks away from the force with his flight direction" or "maybe he dirupts Vader's concentration with his attacks" That's just as good as ... maybe he doesn't. Maybe Rhodey is the one who is disrupted in his flight patterns and spun in reverse, or brought to the ground because he does not escape the pull. Maybe Rhodey is choked out and dies while in mid flight, which of course is going to limit his ability to concentrate or focus attack when his windpipe is being crushed. Rhodey has to be able to target and maintain a lock and flight patterns and is tied down to this and other physical limitations ... more so than Vader's force and will is.
That's just how I see it. I've already stated that your points are valid and it could potentially go the other way during a prior post -
"I'm not saying War Machine has no chance of defeating Vader, yet I still see the odds vastly in Vader's favor."
I just disagree that Rhodey is the one with the edge in this respect, when it comes down to the majority of scenarios and how they could or (maybe) play out..
Sadow, Revan, Bane, and Exar Kun are Sith Lords featured in this thread?
I like how you admittedly have read only a select few EU novels and comics, and yet, despite my showing more knowledge on Vader than you have in this discussion, you assume my intentions regarding the character. Nice job.
Stop wasting my time with this. I like Vader as a character more than I do War Machine. You are not helping your standpoint by accusing my assertions of some ulterior disdain toward the character. If you have an argument to present, kindly do so. Don't throw around this nonsense here and expect me to take it seriously.
I said there were Sith Lord's in this thread. I said I felt that Vader could compete here in this battle. I then made a reference to my opinion of his place among Sith Lords and why he should be given respect as such. Not once did I say that every single one of those Sith Lords that I brought up are in this thread. It was a casual statement I made in the conversation of how I felt Vader stacked up. Why can't you seem to grasp that? It was a simple statement ... and why do you insist on rehashing and nitpicking on those minor details?
You may have more knowledge pertaining to comicbook versions of these characters, but it doesn't necessarily change the outcome of a battle with War Machine.
Wasting your time? Then stop saying that Annakin cannot defeat Tyranus in a duel that he obviously defeated Tyranus in. Considering you find the fact of Tyranus defeating Obi Wan valid and then when he gets killed by Annakin ... it's suddenly CIS or PIS. You win some and you lose some. Tyranus as it turns out, came up short. He lost. Why did he lose? Most likely because Tyranus was a stepping stone on the way to Sidious getting that shiny new apprentice he always wanted for Christmas. The one with Vader's skill and raw power. The one that proved he could defeat Lord Tyranus in a saber duel. Simple as that.
I was making a simple reference to the fact that he can manipulate, grab, move, toss, throw, immobilize etc ... multiple structures and machinery and so forth through his telekinesis. As such, I was debating why it shouldn't be so difficult of a task for him to do the same to WM.
If you notice, I actually said that Vader could telekinetically throw War Machine around; however, I said specifically that this would cause no damage to the armor. War Machine can withstand blows from characters with extreme levels of super strength and powerful energy attacks. Throwing him telekinetically or hurtling objects and debris at him will not defeat him, and as I also said before, Vader can still be met with resistance from the armor's flight capabilites, in addition to Rhodey blasting at him.
I can't say I know the absolute largest structure or most impressive feat of telekinesis Vader has ever performed. Yet whatever it may be, feel free to mention it if you like. That only serves to further validate the point that he could do the same to Rhodey.
No, actually, it does not further your point. The best telekinetic feat I know of for Vader was moving a helicarrier-like ship during the Clone Wars, but that only translates to this battle so well because of the fact that no one was actively shooting at him, he needed concentration to accomplish this (something Rhodey will doubtless not allow for), and the ship itself was stationary in the air. It was not flying any particular direction, thus offering no resistance to his telekinetic control. This cannot be applied to this because of these situational factors. Vader could telekinetically move War Machine, but that would not damage or weaken the armor in any way and, as a result, stands to reason that it would not increase Vader's chances of winning. One other issue I missed pertaining to Vader moving War Machine telekinetically is the fact that in spite of the armor's size and weight, Vader would need to apply several tons of force to move it. Iron Man and War Machine have traded blows with physically superhuman characters, and while they can and have been punched hard enough to send them flying over certain distances, this is not something easily done. There are superhuman characters that War Machine could shrug off punches from without changing his position an inch, much less battering him around. So, there is the issue of War Machine attacking Vader (which can decrease the odds of him successfully using Choke), War Machine's resiliency shielding from any potential harm from simply throwing his armor, his flight making moving his armor more difficult, and the amount of force required to move him at all.
I understand he's in a suit and can fly but I don't think it's impossible for Vader to yank a man out of the air or spin him in whatever direction he likes.
Vader still has to be able to bypass the armor's flight resistance and compensate for War Machine attacking him. Honestly, thus far, I have seen nothing from you that indicates you even acknowledged Rhodey's firepower. He could beat Vader fairly quickly if he uses his weapons correctly, and like I said above (once again), War Machine has the higher likelihood of firing the first shot.
Rhodey's throat or heart are no more durable than a standard human being. They are actually very soft, weak, and squishy.
Laying down the fact that Vader's Choke can be overrode by staggering/hurting him, how many times have you seen Vader use Choke on an enemy and kill them instantly? Because every time I have seen him use it, he needed time for the desired effect. The only time I know of where Vader has snapped someone's neck instantly was in Purge, and he did that because his hand was around a Jedi's throat, meaning Force Choke was not what killed her. It was just Vader's strength. On every other occasion, Vader will use Choke for a few seconds before his victim finally dies. So clarifying that Rhodey's body is not metahumanly durable (something I already know) only proves so much. If Vader could connect Choke, despite War Machine's movements, Rhodey still has a few seconds, at the very least, to fire at Vader with his projectiles (not even necessarily the weapons located on his arms that require any locomotion for him to point and fire with, a scenario I detailed above as well).
The fact that he will be attacking Vader is a valid point considering this is a fight ... but only if he can succeed. Yet Vader will be using the force to defend and attack also.
Vader has nothing to defend against Rhodey's weapons. The only attacks I am aware of that Vader has protected against using Absorption and Deflection were just standard blaster bolts. War Machine's weapons would tear straight through his defenses. Now, Vader does have some durability/pain tolerance feats without those, such as having heavy debris/objects thrown at him, withstanding a Dark Side Burst (albeit with some serious injury), and continuing to fight even with multiple saber wounds. While these are decent feats, they are not up to par with Rhodey's firepower. To be honest, it really would not take very much for War Machine to beat him.
So it all comes down to who can penetrate the others defense first. I personally believe that Vader's telekinesis will win out.
Considering that Vader's Telekinesis would be insufficient to even dent Rhodey's armor, I disagree. War Machine can incapacitate/kill Vader without even using his weaponry at max capacity.
It isn't tied down to the same laws of physics and wind and trajectory as Rhodey's equipment is. I personally see this as an advantage.
IIRC, the armor has targeting systems and alternate scans and displays. That is hardly an advantage, especially since War Machine would get the first hit.
I have explained why numerous times already. You haven't said much differently on your part. "maybe he breaks away from the force with his flight direction" or "maybe he dirupts Vader's concentration with his attacks" That's just as good as ...
maybe
he doesn't. Maybe Rhodey is the one who is disrupted in his flight patterns and spun in reverse, or brought to the ground because he does not escape the pull. Maybe Rhodey is choked out and dies while in mid flight, which of course is going to limit his ability to concentrate or focus attack when his windpipe is being crushed. Rhodey has to be able to target and maintain a lock and flight patterns and is tied down to this
As a matter of fact, I have done differently. I actually explained why the outcomes I listed are more probable. I never just said "maybe this happens," which is all you provided in your previous post.
I honestly have no idea how many times I will have to repeat myself on the limitations Vader has on Choke and Crush and the fact that throwing his armor (which would by no means be easy for him to do in the first place) not damaging the armor are not legitimate factors.
and other physical limitations ... more so than Vader's force and will is.
What? If anyone has physical limitations in this fight, it would be Vader. He is heavily dependent on his life support systems, he lacks the speed to make the opening move, and he is not durable enough to handle War Machine's attacks.
That's just how I see it. I've already stated that your points are valid and it could potentially go the other way during a prior post -
"I'm not saying War Machine has no chance of defeating Vader, yet I still see the odds vastly in Vader's favor."
I just disagree that Rhodey is the one with the edge in this respect, when it comes down to the majority of scenarios and how they could or (maybe) play out.. "
I really don't understand how you can make this assessment when understanding how easy it would be for War Machine to beat Vader with a few simple projectile attacks, while on the other hand it would be incredibly difficult for Vader to harm Rhodey at all.
Wasting your time? Then stop saying that Annakin cannot defeat Tyranus in a duel that he obviously defeated Tyranus in.
You missed the point of what I said. You erroneously claimed that I said Tyranus losing to Anakin was an inconsistency simply because I want to detract from Vader's abilities, a completely baseless and misappropriating accusation.
Considering you find the fact of Tyranus defeating Obi Wan valid and then when he gets killed by Annakin ... it's suddenly CIS or PIS. You win some and you lose some. Tyranus as it turns out, came up short. He lost. Why did he lose? Most likely because Tyranus was a stepping stone on the way to Sidious getting that shiny new apprentice he always wanted for Christmas. The one with Vader's skill and raw power. The one that proved he could defeat Lord Tyranus in a saber duel. Simple as that. "
Try not to misrepresent what I said. I cited Tyranus defeating Obi-Wan as one of several examples of Tyranus fighting an opponent and in doing so demonstrating his skill and power level. There are others such as Yoda, Mace, Ventress, and Grievous. In truth, I never actually disputed that Vader in later years could defeat Tyranus. I was disputing Anakin's ability to at that point.
But if you want to ignore Tyranus' other showings, feel free.
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