Star Wars: Revan and team vs Triumvirate and Malak

So for now I've run out of ideas of who to throw against so I decided to settle for three of my favorite Sith against the Jesus of Star Wars.

Two round battle

First battle: Triumvirate vs Jedi Revan.

Second battle: Triumvirate vs Darth Revan.

Place: Coruscant, middle of the ruins of the Jedi Temple

Victory by kill or bfr

I know Revan seems a little outmatched here but if you recall in the book "Revan" he had been drugged and a prisoner to a Dark Council member for years. When said Dark Council member had beaten down the Exile and Scourge (two very skilled warriors) Revan, weakened and still hazy, reflected her lightning right back at her and turned her to dust. Darth Revan to me seems like he wouldn't be someone to contend with either unless you have a ton of prep and back up, considering that the Jedi Council considered him a big enough threat that they needed an entire strike team of Knight rank Jedi to tackle him.

Edit: So since the Triumvirate has the biggest advantage I'll also add to Meetra Surik (the Exile) Jolee Bindo, and Atris to Revans side. To even it out I'll also add Malak to the Triumvirates side.

Triumvirate should stomp here.

Also, Kreia implied that she was stronger than Revan, by stating that the Exile surpassed Revan by defeating her.

@jedixman But the Exile was easily beaten by Darthy Nyriss even when she had Scourge backing her up, but Revan easily destroyed Nyriss with her own Sith Lightning even after being imprisoned and drugged for years.

@fallen548:

The Revan novel is incredibly inconsistent with almost everything in KOTOR II.

Nihilus and Traya solos.

@jedixman: is the current battle set up a little less one sided?

Either Nihilus or Traya is stronger than Revan in the Force alone, and can solo via Drain or TK.

And the Revan novel is a joke for information on the Exile. The only proper appearance of the Exile was her first appearance, which is KotOR II. Revan contradicted the TSL, unsurprisingly, and its portrayals of the Exile are beyond abhorrent. The fact is, that Darth Nihilus and Darth Traya both have better showings in the Force (at least, in many areas of it) and they would win via that. I do not accept the quote in the Revan novel which claims Revan is more powerful than anybody the Exile met, because of the fact that the Exile herself was never even portrayed adequately, which speaks well enough for Drew's knowledge on her and his authority on TSL-related subjects, especially since there are rumors of him having admitted not researching KotOR II well enough in the first place. I cannot be bothered to confirm their authenticity, but regardless, the fact is that Karpyshyn hides behind doublespeak in order to mask his horrendous knowledge of KotOR II and the Force as a whole.

And no, Revan is not SW's Jesus. Virtually everything that he did after KotOR was not virtuous or righteous.

With the edited battle, this would be closer due to Meetra's presence, but at the same time, the Triumvirate should still win, mostly because the rest remain vulnerable to Drain, and both Atris and Jolee are utterly useless regardless.

*sigh*

I will never understand the Karpyshyn bashing.

@jedixman: Last I checked she said something along the lines of Meetra being her 'greatest student' which is very cryptic. Considering her character, I highly doubt that power is what makes a student the greatest in her eyes.

While the novel Darth Revan was horrible, there is no proof of Meetra being stronger besides very, very loose evidence and a single cryptic line.

Defeating Darth Nihilus is her greatest feat in terms of an opponents raw power; however, she only could thanks to her being a 'wound in the force' something that was conveniently forgotten in the novel Darth Revan. She beat Sion because he was infatuated with her. Out of the three Sith Lords only Traya can be claimed to have been bested without plot assistance.

I will point out that Revan did not achieve his balance between the light side and dark side until after he had left known space which would imply that Traya never was there to judge his last 'power boost' and so even if we were to take her cryptic line as saying Meetra was stronger, it would only be at the time where Revan was a Jedi and slowly remembering his time as a Sith Lord and not the Revan in The Old Republic MMO.

That said, I do not believe Revan to be the greatest Sith/Jedi of all time, and I would be hard pressed to put him in a top 10 of either category.

Onto the battle itself, the Triumvirate take this handily. Nihilus is going to be able to devour most, if not all, of the opposing team while the others find themselves quickly overwhelmed by a nigh-immortal Sion, the large melee dominate Malak, and Traya's own impressive command over the force.

Perhaps, but the fact that she explicitly said "by defeating me," she could be implying that she was stronger than Revan, and therefore Meetra was stronger by defeating her; ABC logic, essentially.

That said, it could be a philosophical defeat; "your philosophy is more legitimate than my own by defeating me here. The universe has proven me wrong" kind of thing (which makes no sense, since she hates the Force and destiny overall... whatever).

@wut: So if I want to make the battle last longer I should take out Nihlus since he's the biggest threat there on the Triumvirate's side? Mostly what I'm going for is an intersting battle for this, though I don't know any other Sith to add to fill the hole Nihlus would leave. Bandon, Yuthura Ban, and Uther Wyyn would be complete push overs and since Visas joins Meetra I don't want to throw her in with the Triumvirate.

I'll agree that Revan isn't as powerful as KOTOR fans want to believe (I only called him the Jesus of Star Wars because it's an old joke between me and some friends) but I wouldn't cast him far down the ranking. He's very talented swordsman, powerful in the Force (I don't see any of the Masters on Dantooine or the group who exiled Meetra, even in a team, taking down Malak when he's being fuled by the Star Forge), and the fact that he not only held out against the Emperors mind probing for 300 years but also influenced the Emperor shows that even for a Jedi, Revan has incredible willpower and mental strength. But what makes him most dangerous is how brilliant of a tactician he is. The Republic was on the verge of defeat during the Mandalorian Wars and the moment he and his Jedi followers stepped in the war turned around. Plus the Mical noticed that when he became Sith Revan would abandon certain worlds to fortify others, as if he was anticipating something. Even when he'd been turned by Lord Vitate Revan was still planning for an attack from the hidden Empire. Combine all of that and Revan is among the most dangerous people in SW, as you said not in the top 10 but I wouldn't put him low on the totem pole.

@wut: Revan arguably belongs at the number 10 spot on the list of greatest Jedi, but no higher, and in no other categories (Sith, overall Force user, etc.).

@fallen548: The largest props I ever give Revan is for his military mind. Not to say that Revan was a bad Jedi/Sith, but his abilities aren't as 'wanked out' as many other Sith Lords.

Nihlius is incredibly powerful thanks to his force drain. He was only beaten because he ran into the one being in the galaxy who he couldn't drain, instead, it seemed to hurt Nihilus to try. Taking out Nihilus would make this fairer, but I would give Team 1 the edge in that case.

@jedixman: But Revan never fought Traya making said ABC relation irrelevant. Nor, can I remember, Traya ever claiming to be stronger then Revan. Since she equated looking at him to be looking at the heart of the force, I doubt she has more raw power. I would say she had more control and knowledge.

Traya was always more impressed with philosophy and deeper thinking then she was by raw power. It seems more in character, at least to me, that Meetra became her greatest student because of her beliefs/personal philosophies/etc then because she had raw power.

@jaken7: I admit my 'hard pressed' refers more to Sith (Who are, generally, more impressive) then Jedi. I wouldn't argue if someone could put a good enough case to put Revan up as a 10th slot.

@wut: Yeah, Revan isn't touching a Sith list at all. The placing on the top ten Jedi list is just a conclusion ShootingNova and I came to after all of our discussions on here. I firmly believe he belongs there, but he's still placed at the very bottom of it.

Kreia was one of Revan's masters. It's quite possible that they sparred at least once.

I don't know about the raw power part. She soloed / stomped three Jedi Masters with little more than gestures, and even cutting all three of them off from the Force. If memory serves, there's also footage (possibly cut, I don't remember) of her forcing Sion to his knees. In the game, she kills multiple Sith Assassins off screen (they appear, screen goes dark, and they fall dead).

She was also able to wield three lightsabers with TK. That's fairly impressive.

I'm not saying that Kreia is necessarily stronger than Revan. However, she is by no means a weak combatant.

Which, as I said, could be the case.

@jaken7: Why is Revan not touching th top 10 Sith list? Honestly I can see him possibly being in the 8-10 spot.

As far as Jedi go, Revan is debatably in the top 5 if we're going by raw Force power, I have it as:

1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Yoda

4) Kyp Durron/Anakin/Hero of Tython/Revan (I can't decide on the order, but I do think Kyp is the most powerful out of the group)

5) Barsen'thor/Galen Marek/Streen

@jedixman: And it is very likely Meetra and Traya spared during their time in Hyperdrive, yet Meetra wasn't 'stronger' (if we use that as what she meant) until she fought Traya seeking victory over her.

The footage I remember of her and Sion is not her using the force or power to subdue him but agreeing to return to his side. Sion is an emotional mess. We see her face Sion twice, she gets beaten both times. One on the ship where she loses her hand, and another time when she talks about how she was betrayed where Sion easily pushes her against a pillar as Nihilus stands watching.

She does kill the Jedi Masters, but we know very little about them. Still, draining them like that was incredibly impressive.

Revan kills multiple Sith on the Star Forge, sith who were shown to kill Jedi Knights giving them more visible feats then the Sith Assassins.

Her wielding the three sabers doesn't strike me as a raw power move. It shows remarkable control over her force abilities. Holding three lightsabers up isn't difficult when compared to Revan pulling down asteroids from a nearby asteroid field in the MMO, having the control to use them as she did would require a lot of control and concentration which is where I believe she beats Revan thanks to her experience.

I never claimed Traya was a weak combatant. She is not. But, Nihilus is stronger then her because of his power that allowed him to devour an entire world filled with jedi with a single word (No ritual), and Sion has shown to have defeated her twice making her not as strong as the two other members of the Triumvirate when it comes to raw combat ability. She was the brains of the operation, not the raw muscle.

@dccomicsrule2011: There's actually quite a few more people who're more powerful than Revan in terms of pure Force power.
1. Starkiller (lets face it, pulling a star destroyer out of the sky is impressive)
2. Luke (especially during the Abeloth incident)
3. Hero of Tython (I have not beaten TOR as a Jedi but from what I heard he managed to defeat the Emperor, or at least his Voice)
4. Mace (if you read Darth Plagueis, Palpatine is actually quite a monster and Mace nearly defeating him shows how powerful Mace is)
5. Yoda
6. Satele Shan
7. Cade Skywalker (since he also plays both sides of the Force, but unlike Revan doesn't have very many morals, he's actually quite a power house)
8. Anakin (Chosen One plot armor)
9. Master Fay (during her entire time as a Jedi she never used a lightsaber, only Force power)
10. Jaden Korr (Kreia stated in KOTOR 2 that the Ancient Sith Lords were far more powerful than the current ones, and Jaden managed to defeat Marka Ragnos' spirit)

Those are just my opinions any way :/

@fallen548: Starkiller doesn't beat Luke. In the novel, he did not pull it down so much as redirect its trajectory as it was falling down already.

In TOR, the Hero of Tython beats a weakened Vitiate's Voice.

Mace stated that only Yoda and Dooku defeat him on a regular basis in sparring. I would not put Mace over Yoda.

With all due respect, this order is all wrong if you were naming your top 10. Starkiller is nowhere near close to GM Luke level of power-- in fact he isn't more powerful then Anakin, Jacen, Yoda, Kyp, and even HoT, though that is just my opinion, but he's surely top 10.

I've never read Cade so I can't say much about him. Master Fay is utter featless, she doesn't deserve to be in the top 20, let alone top 10. The only thing she have to her name is hyperbolic statements and lip service.

I agree Jaden Korr has a strong case to be somewhere here but the ancient Sith Lords were not "far more powerful then the current ones" in fact, the Banite Sith Lords were canonically the most powerful Sith Lords.

I agree with the rest of your picks, although I disagree with the order.

@dccomicsrule2011: O_o

I've fallen into the f***ing Twilight Zone. Not that I'm complaining it's just...you had a very different opinion on Revan mere months ago.

My criteria for judging Star Wars characters have changed over the past few months. :P I've started to look at feats in different ways and factor in things such as the lore, statements, etc.

@dccomicsrule2011: Remember when I saw your view as so twisted that I was certain you were the number #1 Revan hater on this site? Now you're rating him higher than I am...

*is skeptical* >_>

*awaits Ashton Kutcher to jump out and tell me I've been Punk'd*

@dccomicsrule2011: @wut: I'm not placing them in any specific order, just giving examples, though I do think Starkiller is still in the top 10 through sheer force power alone. Even if he didn't tear the star destroyer out of the sky, redirecting something that massive would take more power than most people have. As pissed off as he is usually the guy's a monster with the Force.
@dccomicsrule2011: Cade....is a total wild card to say the least. Being a Skywalker he's strong in the Force but he despises it almost as much as Kreia, he actually took up pirating and bounty hunting after the One Sith nearly wiped out the Jedi Order. The main reason he helped overthrow them is because everyone (Sith and Jedi alike) wouldn't leave him alone. He has a powerful healing ability but to use it he has to take a step or two into the dark side, the first time he used it was as a kid. His master had just had his arm cut off and had a saber stabbed into his chest and died, Cade used his ability to bring his master back from death. Did the same with the Princess of the Empire when she sacrificed herself to save him from a Sith assassin 7 years later.

Bane's order of the Sith was indeed powerful, but with the way Bane set it up each new master would be stronger than the last. That would make Bane the weakest in his own order and Palpatine the most powerful, and compared to Krayt (the ruler of the One Sith during Cades age) Palps was almost a push over, I can't even see Palpatine taking on Sion or Nihilus and pulling a victory. And wasn't there a old Sith Lord who blew up two suns to destroy a Republic fleet that was chasing him? (Sorry, I've been away from SW for a while ^^;)

Fay....yeah she's useless in this list. I wanted to go with Kyle Katarn but I figured since I was already putting Jaden on the list I should wait with him.

@fallen548: He only barely redirected it as it still nearly, you know, crushed them all. He also passed out afterwards. That is the extent of his power. Not nearly as impressive as the video game made it out to be. His fight with Vader? Not like the video game. His fight with Shaak Ti? Not like the video game.

Does he have a lot of raw power? Sure, but he would not be in my top 10 as I take more then power into consideration.

Power/Legacy/Knowledge/Lightsaber Skill/Feats

There is much more to a Jedi then raw power.

@wut: But what dccomics said was "going by raw Force power", and so that's what I was going off of with him. Knowledge he's lacking, sure Vader taught him some stuff but only enough for him to do his job then toss him aside. He's got decent enough skills with the blade but I believe Cin Drallig and Count Dooku would hand him his ass on a platter. Feats wise, I'd say his biggest 2 are the star destroyer and the Gorog, the latter being a bit more impressive.

Indeed there is more to a Jedi than raw power, but Starkiller started off training as a Sith, so power is his only fall back when everything else fails. Electrifying an ancient and giant Saarlac, destroying the Bull Rancor, holding his own against Palpatine until the explosion, defeating the Gorog, moving space debris to crash a massive ship into the Kamino cloning facility, and beating Vader twice. Starkiller, Force wise, is an overall monster. As you said, GM Luke would thrash him, I also have no doubt each individual member of the Triumvirate would have little trouble with him, and I can't see him doing a single thing against the Ones or, God have mercy, Abeloth.

@fallen548: Ah, I see. Your comment on him getting on on Raw power was in reply to DC.

I don't know. Starkiller wouldn't do too bad against Traya. Traya might beat him because she has far more control and knowledge in the force, beware that force drain, but she is the most likely one he could over-power.

When was he holding his own against Palpatine? If you mean in TFU, Palp was playing with him.

@fallen548:

Palps was almost a push over, I can't even see Palpatine taking on Sion or Nihilus and pulling a victory.

I'm not even going to...

@wut: I'd still give it to Kreia. Starkiller would try to tank everything she throws at him, including the drain. If it was pure saber combat than I can see him winning. I wonder how he'd fare against her 3 floating sabers? Damn things scared the hell out of me when I played, and I'm not afraid to admit it!

@dccomicsrule2011: Go ahead, I didn't mean what I said offensively. Nihilus eats all life on planets through the Force, against a monster like that Palpatine would need to do a Sith ritual or two to make sure that Nihilus wouldn't be able to drain him, and Sion won't stay down no matter how much lightning Palpatine hits him with. Again, I didn't mean anything offensively, and I apologize if it seemed that way.

@fallen548:

Go ahead, I didn't mean what I said offensively. Nihilus eats all life on planets through the Force, against a monster like that Palpatine would need to do a Sith ritual or two to make sure that Nihilus wouldn't be able to drain him, and Sion won't stay down no matter how much lightning Palpatine hits him with. Again, I didn't mean anything offensively, and I apologize if it seemed that way.

LOL. I'm not offended, this is fictional characters after all.

As for Nihilus drain, I'm not sure if Palpatine is even effected by Force drain--in fact he may be immune. It can be inferred that he is the one who taught Dooku the technique to resisting the effects of the Dark Reaper--which--is more or less--Nihilus in the form of a super weapon. Over and above all this, Palpatine is much faster then Nihilus, and he has shown planet level Force drain as well.

Revan solos. Traya never implied anything and she practically worshiped him. As far as teammates goes, we don't even know what Jolee and Atris can even bring to the table. And Revan already stomped Malak the first time 'Squint' tried turning on him.

Sion has no notable skill besides not dying unless his mental focus is down and allows himself to die. And given Revan's reputation, he's quite good at screwing with peoples heads. The only actual thread would be Nihilus, but since Meetra's backing Revan, she cancels out Nihilus and without the mega-draining, Nihilus' really ONLY ability of worth, Revan tears him apart.

@dccomicsrule2011: Ah alrighty, when you said "I'm not even going to..." I thought I'd offended you ^^;

Palpatine pulled off a planet wide drain? When did this happen? O.O

@reikai: Jolee and Atris were the most powerful Jedi figures I could think of to fill the rest of the team ^^; Juhani and Mical/Brianna wouldn't be strong enough to hold their own against the Sith team, and Visas would give the Jedi team to much of an advantage over Nihilus since she could just stab herself to weaken him. The only reason I put Jolee instead of Bastila is because he has more experience, especially fighting against Sith.

Sion was the most skilled duelist out of the Triumvirate and the Sith beneath them, add his skill and strength to the fact that he won't die unless his will is broken and you've got a Juggernaut that's just as much of a monster as a raging Malgus, if not more so.

@fallen548: Sion was never that impressive. And against anyone with superior force abilities, and Sion gets knocked around rather handily. Hell he tried to backstab Nihilus and got the crap ripped out of him for even trying.

Saying Sion was the best duelist of the Triumverate isn't saying much, since Nihilus never really displayed melee skill and Traya relied heavily on Force Abilities as well. Malgus is far more impressive than Sion and has more displayed feats.

Revan has no showings that would let him solo, especially since Nihilus and Traya together would easily ragdoll him. Karpyshyn himself admitted to Revan only roughly equaling the likes of Bane or Vader, and to the idea of Revan only being able to collapse a building under select, favourable circumstances. I have quotes of both, if anybody so requires them. The fact is that both Nihilus and Traya's showings, especially with cut content allowed (I don't see why not) are well-above Revan in Force-based power. None of Revan's showings really approach the duo. It might be admissible that Revan wouldn't get ragdolled by the others in respects to raw Force power, holistically, but none of his showings permit that. Revan is the best combatant though.

As for stomping Malak, he only did that well before either was in their prime, so that wouldn't be admissible. The amped version of Malak gave Revan maximum difficulty aboard the Star Forge, as per Karpyshyn. Revan would beat him more easily under circumstances less favorable to Malak, but regardless, I highly doubt it would be a stomp, based on both Karpyshyn's suggestions, and on feats.

Also, why would Traya liking Revan have to do with anything? Kreia loved the Exile dearest, but she was willing to kill her at the end. Why she wouldn't be able to do so with Revan is beyond me. She simply considered Revan an exemplar student and user of the Force, not a god.

And Drain is hardly Nihilus's only powerful ability. He has Stun, Telekinesis, Lightning etc.

And yes, Revan can make it to a top ten Jedi list without any issues.

@shootingnova: What's wrong? Couldn't find the reply button? :P

@jaken7: No, I choose not to respond to select individuals. I want to respond for the sake of the public, but I don't need responses from the people I would be quoting from, simply because it's not worth what limited time I have at the moment to do such things.

@shootingnova: ...but you're directly deconstructing rekai's post. It doesn't make sense not to reply to him.

Limited time? You just hit the reply button to respond to me. How much time did that take you?

@jaken7: What? Did you even read my post? I never said hitting the button wasted time, I said his responses would waste my time.

And no, I don't want to respond to him because I don't want him to respond to me. I don't care whose argument I deconstruct. I choose whether I reply to him or not, and I don't want to.

@shootingnova: I love how you can turn replying to someone into a power fantasy of yours. xD

@jaken7: What power fantasy? I was talking about my choice to respond. Come on, now.

Besides, everybody knows Death is omnipotent anyways. :P

@shootingnova: I know. You're getting off on this semblance of control you're giving yourself. :P

What about Death now?

@jaken7:

No, I'm choosing the level of mercy I'm giving to others.

Death is all-powerful. And he'll be reaping you next if you don't leave him alone. :P

Seriously, let's stop.

@shootingnova: Alright, that was pretty good. xD

Love conquers all!

Awww. Okey dokey then. Fun while it lasted.

@shootingnova: @jaken7: This sums up everything nicely.

@reikai: I am now no longer capable of considering anything you have to say about Star Wars. The first half of that video was just ridiculous. It's not even relevant to the thread. It's just you, yet again, bashing Sw for no real reason.

@i_like_swords: Oh do try to have a sense of humor. It's not like he only craps on Star Wars. He $hits equally on every other game franchise that makes sub-standard and often terrible games. And on that, why should I take this seriously when all of the hardcore SW fans do everything they can to avoid engaging in arguments with people of a differing opinion?

Honestly, people just need to have fun with it. And if you wanted a more serious response, then try this;

Traya is pointless to bring before Revan since she has no on-panel feats aside from jacking four utterly featless Jedi Masters and any claims that this somehow makes her better than Revan is made meaningless by the fact the canon has already established Revan as The most powerful Jedi of his era and openly stating he was stronger as a Sith Lord prior to his redemption. Therefore beating any Non-Revan is just pointless fluff.

Saying Malak was not at peak when Revan stomped him is also meaningless because both characters still progressed later and would still mean Revan was always head'n shoulders above Malak every step of the way and referencing Malak's boosted status on the Star Forge is equally pointless since the battle is not taking place there, meaning Malak is at his Normal levels and since it took a massively amped Malak to even give Revan a hardtime, without the amp and a half-dozen Jedi to Force Drain for their glowing life juices, then Malak is still a worthless patsy who couldn't really do anything other than wave his lightsaber around angrily like Teenage Anakin.

Nihilus is a one-trick pony and if that trick doesn't work then he's about as dangerous as a mannequin made of flashpaper. Since Revan has Meetra with him he can quite verily toss her right at Nihil and cancel out the "force wounds" and then proceed to go all Doomguy on the remainder of the Triumverate.

Sion as above is a useless zombie with no real feats of skill and his only trick is not dying unless convinced life is not worth living like some emo schoolgirl and since Revan is a master of screwing with peoples heads and breaking their wills, this would take him all of about 5 seconds before Sion is cutting out his own malignant and scab ridden heart.

@reikai: Its just the fact you manage to slip in some kind of jab at SW in every thread regarding it. Even if it's totally off topic. In my mind you've shown pretty clear bias against anything that isn't TOR era SW.

I don't care if someone has a differing opinion about SW - I'm just saying, there's no point in talking about how much you dislike it or how much you think it sucks in every thread.

@i_like_swords: I still marginally enjoyed the TCW series and have the TCW movie along with the first 5 seasons and I'll get the 6th once it's nice an cheap and not scraping for every last dime. And while I find Darth Talon an absolute hottie, there's nothing remotely impressive or wondrous about the Legacy Era.

And I like the TOR era best because it didn't have Lucas dragging his moldy balls across it to make it conform to everything else he's teabagged and slapped his name on. It's simply a personal preference. Plus we all know that if LucasArts had kept their $hit together, KOTOR1&2 could've been far more fantastic games with just that bit more time to finish fleshing them out.

Fact was the TOR era had the most creative freedom of any other series within the SWU because it's far enough back in time that they'd have to really, really try to even f**k with anything from the Original Films and it's not in the future after said movies/books that it has to watch out for every singular minor detail that'd make it non-canon or do anything to say that previous events never happened because F**k continuity, Disney's gonna screw it up anyway.

TOR era can achieve a richer expanse without having to use the same group of a$$holes traipsing across the galaxy far far away in every book someone can flick out over a weekend of binge drinking. Not to say they were all bad, but most of them were downright pointless.