Stannis Baratheon vs Robert Baratheon

This is not a 1v1 battle.

Both men have equally sized armies. Battle on the Trident. Both in their physical prime. This is a battle of commanders, both in their primes all things being equal which military force would defeat the other? 2 weeks prep.

Book and Show feats valid.

Round 1: Neither have their usual right hand man [Davos & Ned]

Round 2: They do have their usual right hand men to help them.

Robert, both rounds.

@tparks@betatesthighlander1@princearagorn1

@the_red_viper

@rogueshadow: Hmm, we're nto really sure about how good Robert was as a commander as far as I can remmeebr

@betatesthighlander1: He seemed to be more of a brute than anything, never demonstrating any tactical intellect. Ned being the brains, Robert the Brawns to rally the troops and increase morale, of course morale is an important thing.

Based on what we've seen, robert both rounds.

Ned is the only one who has actual fighting scene from what I remember.

True

and we never really see many of Stannis's men really loving or respecting him

We've never actually seen Stannis commanding an army as well. It's all Melisandre, one way or the other.In the one time he came to a battle without her, he lost half his army and had to turn tail. Robert ion the other hand has beaten 3 armies on the same day during his rebellion and has won the battle of the trident and countless other battles.

Robert wins round 1 and stomps round 2. Ned is probably one of the top strategists in the realm, with his son not far behind by the way. I really like Davos but with all the respect he's no Ned.

Robert both rounds. Stannis is not a very inspiring leader, Robert is not only inspiring, but in his prime he looked like a leader too.

The man was BUILT, and he used a giant freaking warhammer.

In round 2 its not even fair. In terms of council Ned's council trumps Davos's completely

@rogueshadow:

There's no evidence that Ned was the brains and Robert was just the brawns. In fact, Robert gets all the praise for the Rebellion. Even from Ned.

We actually have seen Stannis in battle, on many occasions actually.

First off, we have the Siege of Storm's End; in-which he held out for over a year against the forces of Mace Tyrell. Now, you would say that a siege does not count; or that this one has no purpose in the matter of command, but it really does. This is because of the fact that Stannis did not submit, even though the majority of his men wished to. Even with a substantially lesser army than the hordes of the Reach. Stannis managed to keep his men in-line (which is a big thing for an untested commander of nineteen years), hold out against the army of the Reach (though you would say that Mace Tyrell is a ludicrous commander himself, Mace had the aid of other great generals like Randyll Tarly, Paxter Redwyne and others); through this Stannis intentionally kept the Tyrell army out of the war, basically serving Robert his victory.

Secondly, Stannis' victories during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Not only did he crush the Greyjoy Fleet at Fair Isle, he took Great Wyk with less men than the other commanders, and in the fastest time; also that fact that Great Wyk was the largest and most defended island of the Greyjoys. The Battle of Fair Isle, was a master stroke by Stannis. Not only did he have less ships and men, but he defeated a seasoned commander: Victarion Greyjoy. Luring the Ironborn fleet into a trap, he descended upon them and 'dealt Victarion his most crushing defeat' (ADWD, Victarion Chpt. 56). Destroying the Greyjoy's primary advantage, seapower. Siege of Great Wyk, Stannis assaulted the island and defeated the major pocket of Greyjoy resistance; taking the isle before the walls of Pyke had been breached.

The War of the Five Kings. Though Stannis had made bad decisions during the Siege of King's Landing, it was to be said that he was on the verge of breaching the walls before Tywin arrived. Even without Melisandre, Stannis had instilled fear and lowered the morale of the Lannister defenders; mainly in the point of routing Sandor Clegane, and Joffrey fleeing did aid either. Tyrion's sally was not as effective as many say, even before he is injured his men begin to waver.

Now, though Stannis was not loved; he is Respected and Feared. He is also a very inspiring leader. After the Wildfire, he managed to rally his men to take to the walls. During the Siege of Storm's End, he kept an entire garrison stay strong. Even after his defeat of King's Landing, he kept control and led them North; despite many believing him insane. Stannis is considered to be, even stated by Martin himself, the Greatest Military Commander in Westeros. Characters like Varys and Tywin, behold that opinion of him.

Robert, being a great warrior and a fierce fighter, would not win so easily as you think. Robert is inspiring, respected and loved. But some of his actions of the field are questionable. His battle of Summerhall was an victory, though he did have the upper hand and the larger force. At Ashford, his larger host was defeated and routed by only the van of Randyll Tarly. Though we have the Bells, Robert's participation in it was vague and cannot be used as evidence for command; due to being in hiding for it's majority. The Trident, though being Robert's largest victory, his victory only came from defeating Rhaegar. After the Princes' death, the Royalist routed, if he didn't; Robert might of lost. Both armies were of equal size, along with both commanders (Robert having Ned, Jon, Hoster, Jeor and others whilst Rhaegar having Lewyn Martell, Barristan, Bywater and others)

A battle between Robert and Stannis would be evenly matched, both enspire respect. Robert inspires love, but Stannis inspires fear. And we all know fear is more powerful than love in terms of battlefield loyalty (think of Tywin and Robb, Tywin's vassals didn't even debate any of his choices, whereas for Robb, his entire army fell apart). I would say it is a 50% - 50% chance on either side, even with supporters.

@jimolopolas:

1) There's no evidence that Robert had the larger force at Summerhall. In fact, it seemed that he took a small force so he could move quickly and secure the castle before his enemies arrived.

2) We don't know how many men he had at Ashford. The Stormlands fields one of the smaller armies in Westeros and the Reach has the biggest. Not only that, but Tyrion describes the battle as inconclusive... probably because when Robert saw what was happening he pulled his men back and retreated in good order.

3) Robb didn't inspire love in the Freys and Karstarks though. He inspired hatred.

4) I agree it can go either way though. It depends on where their fighting, the quality of their troops and a whole bunch of other factors.

Robert in his prime could give captain America a legitimate run for his money. so Robert easly

Roberto

@leesensei:

1) It is true that there is no record of the numbers of either army, and I agree with the fact that most likely he took a small force to reach them. But the record of the battles said: 'there were three battles that day'. This implied that he attacked each force in turn, basing of the size of land and the power owned by each of the rebel lords, it is most likely that Robert's garrison of Storm's End would have outnumbered each of these lesser forces. Yes, these numbers are speculation; but my speculation is backed up with viable reasonings.

2) At Ashford, Robert had his entire Stormlander host; judging from the time between Summerhall and Ashford. Robert, at the head of his host, was soundly defeated by Randyll Tarly. Of whom was commanding the van of Mace Tyrell's army, which itself would have been a third of the Tyrell host at it's largest. By the time of ASOIAF the Tyrells could raise 60,000 swords; with Renly having 40,000 swords. Judging by that number, Robert had twice the men of Randyll. Obviously, these numbers were most likely not exact for the War of the Usurper; but it is most likely that Robert had more men.

3) Robb Stark tried to hold his realm together through live (in terms of being a just and honorable king). Yes, the Freys and the Karstarks turned on him. The Freys turned on Robb because Robb, being honorable, married Jeyne Westerling (Though it is more likely that he did this from a mixture of both honour and love). The Karstarks turned on him due to his execution of Rickard Karstark. Being both an honorable and just punishment for the murders of Willem Lannister and Tion Frey.

4) Though it would go either way, Robert was seen as more of a warrior than a commander. And Stannis was seen as more of a commander than a warrior.

PS: I made a mistake with Stannis' age during the Rebellion, he was actually seventeen rather than nineteen.

@jimolopolas:

1) We don't know how much land they owned. All we know about the strength of the Stormlands vassals are that the Marcher lords have a long and storied martial tradition and produce some of the greatest warriors in Westeros. House Cafferen, one of the Houses Robert beat was right next to House Dondarrion.

2) Tyrell's reputation rested on one indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford. Tyrion characterizes it as a minor engagement.

I don't know why you think Renly had 40,000 stormlands soldiers with him. The numbers the Stormlands has in total are about 35,000 and they can mobilize about 25,000 maximum in a war (They need to leave garrisons to defend the Stormlands). When Stannis takes Renlys bannermen, he attacks Kings Landing with 20,000 men. That means the Reach provided between 70,00 and 80,000 men.

3) I don't see Robert ending up in this kind of position. For one thing, Robert was a womanizer and wouldn't marry a girl just because he slept with her. For another, he has no Frey equivalent. Also, none of his men would turn on him for killing members of their family. In fact, when Robert killed Harwood Fells grandfather at Summerhall, he became one of his biggest supporters.

4) Robert was seen as both a great warrior and a great commander. It's part of what irks Stannis. "I never beat him at anything." "Robert should have been the Lord of Lights Champion... not me." Although I'm willing to bet Stannis was overall a more well rounded one.

Both rounds could go either way. Round 2 tips the balance slightly in Robert's favor, since Ned is said to be good tactician while Davos is more of a general advisor with no experience commanding an army.

Depends if Stannis has ships, which gives them long range support to volley Robert's army with arrows or bolts. If so, Stannis. If not and its a battle on the fields next to the Trident, Robert.

ned will give way better advice than davos. in fact ned should be comparable to stannis as a strategic mind. robert likes attacking full on, with him in the lead.

stannis is more cautious and defensive. i think if the shock of robert's cavalry charge breaks stannis's lines, its over.