SSJ4 Goku VS Bills

@theamazingbatman:

I don't mean your quote but the other guy's quote. I knew Goku was based on the Monkey King ages ago. I liked Dragon Ball because I liked the Monkey King. I was laughing at the guy thinking Goku was based off Superman.

If SSJ4 = SSJG, how does Goku win?

Bills was equal with SSJG with Goku only because Bills was only going half of his full effort.

Goku even knew that the only reason he could keep up with Bills in SSJG form was because Bills was wasn't trying to win and was toying with Goku so that Bills could examine his fighting skill.

@retconcrisis: He wins because of his base.

Ill break it down:

BoTG Goku base= 1

BotG Goku SSJ3= 400

Lets say Bills was 2x as strong as SSJ 3 Goku using 1% of his power.

Bills = 80000 (400*2*100)

Goku GT base= 400

Goku GT SSJ 4 = 400*50*2*4*10 (Transformations)=1600000

1600000>>>>>>80000

Even if Bills was 10x stronger than Goku was when using 1% it would still be half of what Goku is.

Side note: Bills used 70% of his power and was too exhausted to blow up a single planet. Hardly "playing".

Just a question. I've read around that many people refer SSJ4 multiplier as 10 times stronger. But this guy in these DBZ threads, which I forgot his/her name, brought up a good point. SSJ4 bypasses SSJ2 and SSJ3. Like it was Base>Oozaru>Golden Oozaru>SSJ4. So that's presumably Base*10*50*(anything or nothing).

Though, that doesn't change a lot as a 500 multiplier > 200 multiplier.

@limilicious: *shrugs

Later he is able to jump from SSJ 1 up to SSJ 4 while battling 17 so it's only logical to assume it acts similarly to 1-3 in that they stack.

LOL. What's with all the numbers and calculations? Akira didn't even do that much and he created the guys! Not to mention GT is a whole new level of inconsistency because Arkira didn't even write that.

SSJ4 stomps.

@stupid_people:

I'm more incline to think that 4 is just a separate transformation and can be done in any order. Like Base>1>2>3 and Base>1>4 or something. And there's a decent reason behind it, bare with me. It's Vegeta!! He obtained SSJ4 transformation through the same way Goku did but never achieved SSJ3. He felt weaker than Goku's SSJ4 but definitely not 4 times weaker as he never obtained SSJ3 for it to stack.

I guess it's something we'll never know for sure and it's just a range from 500x to 4000x.

bills/

@averageinsanity: Finally, someone who gets it.

Jmarshmallow

just to put some points to you guys,

Bills when fighting Goku was using 70% of his power, while Super Saiyan God Goku was using only 80%. they both didn't use there full extent of power. and f we watch the fight we can see that Bills was a little bit more confortable in his fight than Goku. that means that even if they both go full power, Bills will have the advantage, but it's not a very big advantage.

@all_mighty_beyonder:

I like math. If you give Goku an edge and say that Bill's 70% = Goku's 80%, then Bill's 100% would be 43% stronger than before, while Goku's 100% would be only a mere 25% stronger than before. And that translate into Bill's being 14-15% stronger than Goku.

While some people say these calculations are stupid and meaningless, it's a whole lot easier to understand numbers than statements/scenes that's up for interpretations.

@limilicious: stalemate made by the characters are more proof than any numbers people calculate outside of the frieza saga.I don't think their completely meaningless just that character statements count more than numbers.As of this fight,Bills at 100% should beat ONLY Baby arc SSJ4 Goku and possibly Full Power SSJ4 Goku baby arc but anything after Bills gets stomped

@limilicious: quite good, and completely true. it would be exactly that Bills is 14.28 % more powerful than SSG Goku. but the fact that they showed Goku being thinner usual, gives the idea, that he can improve his SSG level, like what happened with SSJ1 from Freiza saga to Cell saga

@reaverlation: Yeah, I do agree with that. I was just saying it in a generic sense because sometimes I see in manga/anime that what the character statement says and what the illustration/picture shown is a little different, or nothing is stated and everything is just up for interpretations. I think a decent example for the latter would be Broly Second Coming or whatever it's called. When Gohan fought Broly, it was totally weird because Gohan fought at Base for majority of the fight, but regardless, when he went SSJ(2), it's like a 'hybrid'. You got the more goldeny hair, the more rigid spiked hair, but you're lacking the blue electricity aura. As for the former, I guess the whole GT and General Rilldo is a good example. Rilldo and GT looked a little lacking, with respect to devastating power, but Goku did say Rilldo = Buu.

@limilicious: Rildo was suppose to be stronger than Buu but the problem was not knowing which buu:Good Buu or Kid Buu but ultimately Rildo is considered fodder in the baby arc so it really doesn't matter.Second Coming was just a bad movie.I mean Base Gohan looked stronger than SSJ Goten and Trunks but Base Trunks prevented LSSJ Broly from amping his blast against the Family Kamehameha with a weak Ki blast.Just don't fall for the Brolypotence and being able to take on the Buu's and other similar nonsense.In the manga,statements from Characters are taken first over any numbers.For the anime,just follow the manga first and you're good :)

yeah lol , some people still think that goku is based on supes.

yup. ssj3 goku couldn't touch bills and ssj 2 vegeta made bills bleed .

Well,For me Bills would win.You need six saiyan which is not impure.It is very rare to find those kind of saiyans cause shenron said Planet Vegeta is full of evil saiyans.SSJ 4 can be obtained even by a single saiyan only.Well for me Bills>>>SSJG>>>SSJ4

I know most of you guys will not agree

Well,For me Bills would win.You need six saiyan which is not impure.It is very rare to find those kind of saiyans cause shenron said Planet Vegeta is full of evil saiyans.SSJ 4 can be obtained even by a single saiyan only.Well for me Bills>>>SSJG>>>SSJ4

I know most of you guys will not agree

@animefan_patrick i just wanna point this out, for everyone, clearly you are not a db fan, i agree with everyone's calculations but when someone or anyone, said "Bills win/Bills stomp?" that just pisses me off, at the ending of the movie, goku had powered down from SSJG yet he still had the power to block Bill's attack, and for those who are saying, "Owh bills is using 70% of his power", BS on that, when bills and goku went underground bills clearly got mad when goku said he was only using 80%, and went on full power rage. Well, that doesn't point out my true intent of this post, has everyone here forgotten that goku's power increases drastically as he fights someone much stronger than him, but in some cases when the enemy is "Too strong" Eg : Broly, and doesn't play around for a while, like how bills doesn't just destroy earth, goku will just get on their level, maybe even more.THE POINT IS GOKU ALWAYS WINS.

EDIT: Since when did this discussion turn into GT vs DBZ from Bills vs SSJ4 Goku?(I know SSJ4 is only in GT)

@aikawaayumu: ok first who are you to call someone "not a db fan"

Second of you remember goku still had power from ssjg that's the only reason he fought evenly with 70% bills besides akira himself stated that if he had to judge them on a power scale

Ssjg goku. 6

Beerus 10

Whis 15

See the math

@dbzk1999 clearly you didn't read my comment properly.he did still have the power from ssjg, but he powered down, meaning his base pl increased.And you "Clearly" didn't get my point, this topic is about ssj4 goku vs bills.If ssj god was before omega shenron then why in the heck did they not use it against him if it were stronger than ssj4 they didnt goku stayed ssj4 and so did vegeta and to think that it was stated that there is a ssj5 ssjgod is nothing more than just a ability like kaioken and for the 3rd time want to prove a point show me a link or somthing that akira toriyama states that GT is not Canon.Remember, pl isn't everything.Bills couldn't even sense and stop a bullet, before botg gohan could already catch bullets with ease, that proves feats are nothing. universe buster feat?, hell before Bills, Broly was the bomb.

Lol bills wins hes a god as far as we know bills and his mentor are the strongest things ever created in the dbz gt universe thats why it takes goku to be a god to even compete .please people stop this nonsense

I think they are supposed to be roughly the same. SSJG in my view was created to wipe away the tainted smell and taste of all that is GT without overdoing it. My basis is that Vegeta was somehow able to match Bills in striking and acquire enough speed to land a few hits. Makes a lot more sense that Vegeta was able to up his power briefly by a factor of 40x rather than the crazy claims of SSJG being hundreds of times as powerful as SSJ4.

Bills/SSJG/SSJ4 >/= SSJ2 Vegeta seriously pissed off? That makes a lot more sense than

SSJG/Bills/SSJ2 Vegeta upset > Giant Gap 100s of times more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta > Omega and SSJ4 Gogeta.

@aikawaayumu: wow thanks for reiterating my point about ssjg

And ssjg not a transformation that's a pretty stupid thing to say if it was like kaioken then his appearance wouldn't have changed (leaner body, eyes change. Little bit etc) with kaioken all that happened was his skin turned red

Transformation

a thorough or dramatic change in form or appearance.

And where the **** did I mention omega shenron

Or universe busting feats or even power level for that matter

Try to make sure that you respond to the right person considering most of what you said didn't even concern me

One more thing "power level isn't everything" guess that means base goku at 3000000 should've beaten 50% freeza at 60000000

GT logic is inconsistent

Bills in a stomp

Bills

When did they said goku was using 80% of his power? i watched the movie yesterday (it was terribad btw, the only decent part being Bills as enemy) and i dont remember that, only that Bills wasnt even trying his best.

Besides, where is it stated that SSJ4 goku is stronger than God goku? I even doubt SSj4 gogeta is stronger than God goku, seeing how God goku is the strongest a sayian can get by CANON akira.

Bills win

Can't current goku stomp bills? When ssj god was negated he still had power left, yet he was forcing bills to use more of his power if thats true he could have gone up to ssj3. What happened?

SSJ4 Goku can't beat Bills and here is why:

Bills is standing on a other plane, his power cannot be sensed if you're not a God your self. As much as you can punch him, if you are not emiting the same type of aura its just useless.

SSJ4 and SSJ3 aren't that different.Remember Ubb, the guy who is the reincarnation of Buu? He held his own against that "Baby?" thing, and his native power level should be around SSJ3. SSJ4 defeated Baby but still had quite a hard time. So the power up is not that massive.

Now, you have Bills whom defeated SSJ3 by flicking his finger... Impressive feat all right! And that was probably not him at 75%!!!

Goku going SSJGOD, had him on the same plane/dimension/Godfield. He could sense Bills power, and now his attacks could deal damage, which still wasn't enough to defeat the God of destruction.

SSJ4 would last longer against Bills thats for sure, but Bills will defeat it with a few punches.

(before anyone says Goku faire good in super saiyan afterward)

Bills did say to Goku he had not been in SSJG for a while, and that the transformation must have been assimilated in him, causing the power up, because lets face it he became a God, he is a God now.

he held his own after good buu was absorbed inside him so we cant tell how strong he was compared to goku ssj4. and two he was toying with baby early on to test his strength or do you mean after baby got a huge boost in power so that would make it hard to deside how strong the differnce was or are you talking about attacking from the insides of baby which it was shown even in dbz if you are inside them attacking outward is easier and you can be much less powerful to do

Going with Bills. There is no logical way to know for sure.

Bills. He spams SSJ4 Goku with glass and needles.

Goku

Anyone?

Basically

Goku still stomps

SSJ4 Goku easily.

Since there no one to actually know. I'm going with Bills

Bills

Goku with ease.

Goku becausr

Gt>>>> Z

Non God ki doesn't work on gods. Goku should have a shot hand to hand though.

Berus has a stated realm - solar system busting hype behind him ssj4 goku has only dimension breaking feat which is nothing in front a actual solar system buster

I still think SSJ4 Goku would edge him out, but its looks like Z is shaping up to be stronger than GT, given Beerus recent showings.

Ssj4 is the highest state that a sayajin can reach.

Stands in every wiki and toriyama oficially said it.

So ssj4 is stronger than ssj god but ssj4 can't harm bills.

Bills said that a normal life form can'r harm him. Maybe punch him but Not harm him. Just a god can hurt him.

Ssj god has the Ability to become immortal, invincible and Invurnable to all harm that exists.

Ssj4 is WAY stronger. But without god power I don't see how Goku could hurt Bills.

Bills must be got stroger with time.

But ssj4 is too powerfull for bills.

Every GT Charakter stomps every Z chatakter.

Base Goku in GT would fuck kid boo in 81838392010 halfs.

But Against Bills he needs power of god. Bills either couldn't harm Goku because he's wqy too fast and powerfll to get hurt that much.

THE ONLY way to defeat Bills is for Goku to transform ssj god in GT and then back tranaform after the time limit is reached.

Because Goku drains energy from everythink in tje whole universe. That'a the reason why he has for maximum one hour god power after back hour.

So he must transform sjj god and after back transformatiom transform into ssj 4 with abit left god power.

But thwn he curb mega god stomps Bills in a minute.