SSJ4 Gogeta is stronger than SSJ4 Goku, but SSJ Vegito is not stronger than SSJ4 Goku. But like I said, i'll go into detail on this tomorrow.
SSJ4 Goku VS Bills
@pope052: that is also right if, the time difference is 100 years or more.Only then we can speak of Goku being stronger than Buu saga Vegito.Keep in mind that Vegito wasn't even at full power.
@pope052: @sheenlantern: How about the fact that every fusion happens to be the strongest character in the series? SSJ Vegito was the strongest character in Z, and SSJ4 Gogeta was the strongest character in GT. It's even been stated multiple times that fusions create the ultimate warriors....
Right, so could a hypothetical Namek Saga Gogeta beat Mystic Gohan?
I want to hear your reasons, because they aren't obvious.
@pope052: Goku is 50% Vegito so his power is Vegitos hahahahahahahahahshahahshshsjah you guya can continue your debate now.
@pope052: Goku is 50% Vegito so his power is Vegitos hahahahahahahahahshahahshshsjah you guya can continue your debate now.
Proof of that?
@pope052: @ghostrider2: I didn't read his full argument. I simply thought you three were arguing over whether or not fusions are stronger than individual characters lol
@buttersdaman000: I said it wrong more like 100% Goku + 100% Vegeta. Proof Grand Kai.
@frocharocha: Oh shut up with that "DBZ is a ripoff of Superman" crap.
@pope052 This really depends. If Goku has that power boost between Z and GT, where he was as powerful as Buu in his base form... well... I'd say he pretty much takes the cake. But if we're just saying, for the sake of argument that Goku still has the same power in his base at the Buu saga, then Bills still wins.
@frocharocha: Oh shut up with that "DBZ is a ripoff of Superman" crap.
@pope052 This really depends. If Goku has that power boost between Z and GT, where he was as powerful as Buu in his base form... well... I'd say he pretty much takes the cake. But if we're just saying, for the sake of argument that Goku still has the same power in his base at the Buu saga, then Bills still wins.
this and goku stated general rildo ( or someone he was fighting) was 5x stronger than buu , and he fought him at base. I'd say goku shits on bills
SSgod was created to be more powerful than ss4 and appease all the fans who detest GT. So if Akira has anything to do with this ssgod wins
@cooldes: Where did it say that the god form was 70% stronger than SSJ3?
wasn't bills at 1% and slapped around ssj3 goku? And then goku went ssjG and fought equally with bills at 70%. That would mean his power increased x70 from ssj3
Goku. Not because of the SSJ4. But because of the massive boost of power he got between BoG/EoZ and Beginning of GT.
This pretty much sums it up.
@flashgreatersigneveryone: dbz vs dbz are not banned XD
Bills, even Shenron is afraid of him.
What? 0_0
@princearagorn1: the dragon
aren't DBZ threads banned.. xD?
I dream of a day we can get through a DBZ thread without someone asking that.
@kyrees: @ghostrider2: oops, I thought of omega shenron..
@nighthunder: When was GT ever stated to be 5x stronger than SSj3? He had trouble dealing with his possessed children who were only SSj1 :/
"DBZ Villain". SSJ4 Goku is GT which takes place after Battle of the Gods, and SSJ4 Goku is not a villain either. You've made two mistakes there.
@pope052: He meant to say Bills
He did say Bills. But he implied it as though SSJ4 Goku was a villain, and from DBZ.
@pope052: i know but he was saying Bills is the strongest villain.
if its goku ssj4 from gt then i dont think he can win
But if op is assuming ssj4 in dbz and its after goku's special training to defeat bills
Then goku is gonna win here
He said Bills is the strongest "DBZ" Villain, he made it seem as though SSJ4 Goku is from DBZ, yet he is from GT. Which takes place years after the events of Battle of the Gods.
Bills at 0.1% pimpslapped a ss3 goku with almost no effort at all.
And we did never even seen Bill's true power and other potential of what he can do.
Bills stomps.
Let's go by power scaling and statements.
Statement 1, Base Goku is said not to be able to defeat Freezer by Bills, meaning he's less than 120,000,000. I'll give him 60,000,000
Statement 2, Bills is the strongest person in DBZ they've seen. That puts him above SSJ Vegito (though he shouldn't be).
Statement 3, in the databooks it's said that Vegito is more like VegetaxGoku with a little boost. I'll just use the multiplication number
Thus base Vegito is 360,000,000,000,000x50 for SSJ Vegito is 18,000,000,000,000,000
Bills is at least 18 quadrillion (that is that number right?)
Statement 4, Base Goku in GT is as strong as SSJ3 Goku in Z, take 60,000,000x50x2x4=24,000,000,000.
Statement 5, SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3 so SSJ3 GT Goku should be 24 billionx50x2x4x10=96,000,000,000,000 or 96 trillion.
If we take those powerlevels of Bills's possible min and compare them to SSJ4 Goku, Bills far more powerful, being in the quadrillions rather than the high low-mid trillions.
If I've done anything wrong, got any statements wrong let me know, otherwise, this should be the conclusion of this fight.
We can't do PL scaling, because PLs became worthless after Namek. Why are people still doing it? <<
Because with feats....SSJ4 Goku is <<<<<SSJ Goku in some manners. Plus I agree power scaling doesn't work for say, he can destroy a planet at pl 120, thus he can destroy 2 at pl 240, but in the confines of the DBZ Universe itself, powerlevels pretty much always work. The higher power level is the most powerful. period.
We can't do PL scaling, because PLs became worthless after Namek. Why are people still doing it? <<
Because with feats....SSJ4 Goku is <<<<<SSJ Goku in some manners. Plus I agree power scaling doesn't work for say, he can destroy a planet at pl 120, thus he can destroy 2 at pl 240, but in the confines of the DBZ Universe itself, powerlevels pretty much always work. The higher power level is the most powerful. period.
Well, that's upto frieza saga. That's where they start going haywire..
Bills with ease, he ROFLstomped, Goku at SSJ3, Gohan, Vegeta, Majin Buu, Gotenks, Piccolo, and pretty much everyone. Goku SSJG wasn't even as strong as Bills. SSJ4 Goku had trouble dealing with villains weaker than Bills, so... Bills
Statement 1, Base Goku is said not to be able to defeat Freezer by Bills, meaning he's less than 120,000,000. I'll give him 60,000,000
I cannot recall Bills saying that, ever. I'm not saying he didn't, but remind me which scene Bills stated that, and i'll believe it. If it's true, then it was PIS. Considering that BOTG took place at the End of DBZ, in which Base Goku was even with Uub (Kid Buu's good counterpart, retaining the same power). Base Goku EOZ = SSJ3 Goku (Kid Buu Fight).
Statement 2, Bills is the strongest person in DBZ they've seen. That puts him above SSJ Vegito (though he shouldn't be).
In DBZ. SSJ4 Goku is from GT which takes place long after the events of Battle of the Gods. Over that time involves Goku's power increases, and SSJ4 increase. Bills is the strongest Z character, notGT.
And what do you mean he shouldn't be stronger than Vegito?
Your calculations are incorrect by default, considering that there had been no official measures of Power Levels post Frieza Saga.
Also, even if your calculations were correct, you've left out Goku's power increases over the time period from End of Z - When he became SSJ4 in GT.
@pope052: BOTG took place before gokus fight with ubb. Which now it would make sense since goku is now more powerful because of the SSJG in all of his forms.
@pope052: BOTG took place before gokus fight with ubb. Which now it would make sense since goku is now more powerful because of the SSJG in all of his forms.
It would actually make no sense whatsoever. Since Goku would have atomized Uub by blinking if he had SSJG's power in base form.
Statement 1, Base Goku is said not to be able to defeat Freezer by Bills, meaning he's less than 120,000,000. I'll give him 60,000,000
I cannot recall Bills saying that, ever. I'm not saying he didn't, but remind me which scene Bills stated that, and i'll believe it. If it's true, then it was PIS. Considering that BOTG took place at the End of DBZ, in which Base Goku was even with Uub (Kid Buu's good counterpart, retaining the same power). Base Goku EOZ = SSJ3 Goku (Kid Buu Fight).
Statement 2, Bills is the strongest person in DBZ they've seen. That puts him above SSJ Vegito (though he shouldn't be).
In DBZ. SSJ4 Goku is from GT which takes place long after the events of Battle of the Gods. Over that time involves Goku's power increases, and SSJ4 increase. Bills is the strongest Z character, notGT.
And what do you mean he shouldn't be stronger than Vegito?
Your calculations are incorrect by default, considering that there had been no official measures of Power Levels post Frieza Saga.
Also, even if your calculations were correct, you've left out Goku's power increases over the time period from End of Z - When he became SSJ4 in GT.
What are you talking about with the second statement? I didn't say he's stronger than SSJ4, but Vegito. You just pointed out exactly what I pointed out?
Anyways, there's a scene where Bills hears that Goku is the one that kills Freezer. When he goes to King Kai's planet to fight him, he makes a remark that Goku couldn't have possibly beat Freezer as he was.
Um....I didn't use anything except official power levels and official modifiers. It's a fact that SSJ is 50x, SSJ2 is 2x, SSJ3 is 4x, and SSJ4 is 10x. It's also a fact that Goku has to be weaker than Freezer, meaning he's less than 120,000,000. Not sure what else you want.
BTW it was never stated that Uub was = Kid Buu. Never. Regardless it wouldn't make a difference. It'd just make Bills MORE powerful as he's at least SSJ Vegito level who's GokuxVegeta. The stronger Goku gets EOS, the stronger Bills has to be, by an large amount since it's multiplication.
@darkraiden: lol, whenever I hear or see "Freezer" I now immediately jump to this:
Also, SSj4 has no official multiplier, just the fan base one of 10x :3
You can't honestly scale DBZ to GT. GT is non-canon. And their own numbers are vastly inferior to those in DBZ. Every source I have looked and checked, stuck Omega Shenron at a Pl of 9billion. Buu Saga, Goku as a SS3 was 24billion. The only way Goku as a SS4 would lose out to Shenron, was if he was 48x Weaker than he was at the end of DBZ.
The writers failed massively. GT is vastly inferior to DBZ. Made moreso by the BoG movie thanks to Akira Toriyama.
@pope052: GT is not even official
What are you talking about with the second statement? I didn't say he's stronger than SSJ4, but Vegito. You just pointed out exactly what I pointed out?
I never said you did. But you implied that SSJ4 Goku was a Z Character.You said that Bills is the strongest character in Z as if SSJ4 Goku was in Z too.
Anyways, there's a scene where Bills hears that Goku is the one that kills Freezer. When he goes to King Kai's planet to fight him, he makes a remark that Goku couldn't have possibly beat Freezer as he was.
That's because Goku hadn't powered up, he likely had his power lowered in Base Form as there was no need in keeping it raised.
Um....I didn't use anything except official power levels and official modifiers.
There's no official power levels after the Frieza Saga.
It's a fact that SSJ is 50x, SSJ2 is 2x, SSJ3 is 4x, and SSJ4 is 10x.
Never said it wasn't, nor did I say that the Super Saiyan multipliers weren't x50/x2/x4 & x10. Stop being a Straw-Man.
It's also a fact that Goku has to be weaker than Freezer, meaning he's less than 120,000,000. Not sure what else you want.
You'd have to be very ignorant and daft to believe that Base Goku (EOZ) < Frieza. Going by that statement alone I know you don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know where you're getting your "facts" from, but they're inaccurate, falsely calculated, and just wrong.
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