The problem becomes what does that excess mean, outside it is an excess? We can't decipher what these numbers mean outside what is explicitly said about them and because the creator likely didn't put any real thought into them, it makes them impossible to work an argument around them.
That's the point I was trying to make. Arguments based around these numbers are pointless because they don't mean anything.
Of course, one thing the Kili statement does do is provide yet another piece of evidence that the characters are well beyond planet-busting at this point.
You're not arguing with what I said. What is well-beyond planet busting mean?
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2
Less about being farfetched and more about me exaggerating the circumstances. And it's debatable too - as I take the showing Bill still out cold from Galactus blasting him, was swallowed by the resident star going nova (given he starts outside it and it eventually envelopes him). To be quite honest, the point blank planet buster in this series was more impressive than the Nova Bill flies out of. Although again you could argue the more liberty the text provides and say otherwise that he was inside the star's core or something of the sort, but the depiction would be somewhat contradictory of that.
You're missing context in what you're responding to in the next to comments, sorry about that.
My point was directed at how the DBU fighters fight and react to one another. In that sense, that ability to sense their opponent's movements / actions to act accordingly (despite how inconsistent with how the fights were depicted) I'm running under the notion that sensory ability won't be able to perceive Mjolnir because it lacks the properties they use to register one another and it would prevent them from reacting to one another.
My point was to point how one could argue repeated Mjolnir strikes could destroy Cell, given his regenerative ability allows him to persist through his cells.
Of course, western Comics use ABC logic all the time as well, and for some reason, fans don't usually have any problem when it happens in Marvel and DC. I mean, taking it out would mean Thor is more powerful than Tyrant; after all, when did Tyrant ever actually bust a planet or a solar system? When were we ever shown Tyrant busting a galaxy. Never. Thor has better feats than him, in that regard, but pretty much everyone who's read Tyrant's appearances can tell he's obviously way above Thor.
So yes, Goku, Cell, the Androids, all way beyond planet-busting. Again, Freeza's first form was a planet buster (a planet 10x the gravity of earth, so some combination of more dense and more massive). Anyone who can physically crush him like a bug, which is just about every major character after the Freeza Saga, is obviously well beyond that.
And again, even before that, Piccolo, a very weak character at the time, and nearly at the very beginning of the series, is a confirmed, on-panel moonbuster. If you include the anime, Vegeta is actually an on-screen planet-buster, and even without it, still implied. Even Freeza's first form could reasonably be well beyond the minimum for destroying earth.
Claiming? You could quite honestly argue Goku is even less durable in this situation, but there are slightly different circumstances to consider.
- Frieza didn't tank a planet busting attack or self-destruct - he tanked whatever measure of the explosion of the planet hit him after Goku blasted him. Said blast vaporized half of his head, as well as other parts of his body further (note: not Goku's blast, since his attack hit Frieza's other side).
- Goku in this sense was at ground zero of the explosion. And despite this a measure of him wasn't destroyed and absorbed by what remained of Cell, allowing Cell to pick up Instant Transmission and what have you.
- The only claims made about this self-destruct is that it was powerful enough to destroy the Earth - there is nothing else to work with or argue around. Planetary + logic is nonsense.
Despite the ABC format of the DBU it is inherently plagued with inconsistency in terms of power directly as a result of the author's attempts to never really move these characters past a certain point to keep things relatively the same (as that is what his audience wants) as the characters supposedly become more powerful.
Depowered Tyrant never did destroy a galaxy as far as I was aware and his main claim to fame at full power was an off-panel fight with Galactus. If he handled floored multiple characters sporting nice feats, he wouldn't be taken all that seriously in my book. So I don't disagree with your point here.
Again what is "well beyond planet-busting" equate to in an argument - especially when we're talking rocky-planet busters? There is a great lack of information in regards to planet Vegeta, outside its gravity - which arguably could be the result of whatever magic reason King Kai's planet is sporting 10x said gravity. The damn thing could be made of compacted dried marsh-mellows for all we know.
Even that full-form Frieza planet buster, consisted more so of blowing up the core and then the planet imploding as a result. The film required that first form attack to actually dig in for a while to do so too.
The only characters that survive planet busters in this series are villains, except none of them remotely intact.
On the other hand, a statement like Mjolnir being the most powerful weapon in the universe is simply wrong. We know it is wrong. Thor loses too many fights for it to be true, and we also know that the most powerful weapon is rightfully the Ultimate Nullifier anyway. An argument could possibly be made for a Cosmic Cube (and if you include the Infinity Gauntlet, that obviously trumps both of them), but Mjolnir isn't anywhere near any of them. Hell, Mjolnir can barely even stagger Ultron most of the time.
Without hard evidence to the contrary, it is hyperbole. What he should be isn't consistent with what any of the characters should be at this point or in their futures - that's the main issue here. At the end of the day they all get panic attacks when the world is being threatened to be destroyed.
Thor isn't Mjolnir. Him losing has less to do with the hammer and more to do with Thor. You could argue the Ultimate Nullifier is a bit more than just a weapon, its an item that has destroyed multiverse and remade it just as quickly in the hands of Reed Richards. As far as the scan's concerned, that was set thousands of years prior to the present, the nullifier arguably didn't exist or at least wasn't confirmed to at that time.
Cosmic Cubes and the Gauntlet aren't weapons, items of considerable power and something that can be used offensively - sure - just not something built the around the idea for fighting. Considering some of the hammer's showings, if it isn't one of the most powerful weapons in the MU - it is up there by design. It having difficulty staggering Ultron is more of a Thor issue, in that sense writers happily having it knock Galactus on it's rear and lack that same kick to a robot. Albeit King Thor probably could swing it hard enough to have no issue cleaving Ultron's head off its shoulders.
You're focusing way too much on Tyrant. We've already established him flooring multiple characters with a nice assortment of feats, which include planet busting - sometimes physically. Tyrant and Darkseid are at least sporting showings where the characters they did engage with were confirmed to capable of all the above, the Z-fighters did not. That's the issue.
The contradiction lies in the source material, that's the issue. If the characters hadn't been dying to what are claimed to planet busting attacks and nothing more from start to finish and never go beyond that destructive force themselves - it becomes a bit ridiculous to take off-hand comments by Cell that has no idea the size of the Solar System seriously. Let alone the writer who is likely on the same boat.
The Z-Fighters aren't sporting the same power, just the same power set - at least for the most part.
The problem is Cell can't tank their shots. Vegeta blasted clear through him (and he was significantly weaker) simply using a blast with enough power to destroy the planet. Goku did the same thing, arguably Krillin could potentially have been able to kill Cell if allowed to.
I don't remember the context of the irony. The Buu's are fairly durable (its more so their elasticity) and are sporting a much higher pain tolerance than most of the cast ever did.
Did it destroy a planet? Yes. Did it destroy anything past that? No. Did Kid Buu have any reason at all to hold back or concentrate the attack? No. What else would I call it instead of a planet buster? There's no indication anything else was destroyed as a result.
I don't differentiate between the points Masterson had Mjolnir and Thunderstrike. Even with Mjolnir in tow he couldn't even handle Thor in a one on one fight, he's remarkably unremarkable compared to Thor.
Because Thor from the Avengers would lose to the Thor from his own book. You could write it off to him holding back too much or simply the obvious matter of the power leap he has over his fellow teammates - which is an issue for a lot characters in fiction on the same boat.
Good point on the usage of decades old scans, albeit even if I only did that once in regards to him being in the sun. (due to the lack of scans showing him doing so often and me not wanting to use Beta Ray Bill showings in place holder for Thor simply to argue on the same merits as posters in DBU threads tend to do). The closet modern showings either have him right in-front of it or a more recent reference to how he apparently will move to the sun to become a cosmic god cop.
Its really a matter of preference for me. Albeit in terms of having issues with his opponents speeds, it seems to primarily be an Achilles heel in older Avenger books - or more recent era books when fighting Wolverine one on one and becomes a slower version with the Hulk with lightning, despite one-shotting Wolverine in Uncanny Avengers (I guess Hickman disagrees with whomsoever wrote Wolverine vs Thor - that fight where Wolverine tanks Thor lightning light a champ and can magically appear on-top of him in the air).
And DBZ hardly has a monopoly on inconsistency. DC, off the top of my head, has quoted the moon as having a mass 9 orders of magnitude less than it should, and has drawn it being less than 180,000 km from the earth, when it should be nearly twice that. In fact, just about any illustration you'll find in comics of the earth and moon will show it being much closer than it should be.
Of course, something we do know about planet Vegeta is that it was apparently large enough to accommodate the populations (and evolutions of those populations) of two sentient species, one of which had every member of its race transform into giant ape beings during a full moon, and the other being a highly advanced civilization. And you apparently feel that it is appropriate to compare this to a strange and unique planet that exists in the after life, not normal space, and is home to a whopping 3 inhabitants? Yeah, I see no reason to take King Kai's planet as being anything other than what it was, which was highly anomalous.
- I'm fully aware of how much more powerful Galactus is than Thor and he could have Thor cease to exist if he had any interest in it. My thought is, could Goku released a kamahameha that could knock Galactus over / knock him back? Could he survive a casual blast from Galactus - to the same degree Galactus has used to knock Beta Ray Bill out or have Thor struggling to get up as Galactus reaches to finish him?
- For Glory, Glory was assaulting Thor's mind, body and essence. In Glory's initial appearance, it's crushing planets with its bear hands (and of course clearly altering it's size when fighting Thor - given how much smaller it becomes). When Thor flings himself into it, he finds himself in a strange landscape and assaulted by Glory's inner defenses that require a whirl-wind - likely the most powerful Thor's produced - to defend himself (it was akin to the showing where Thor put himself inside a Celestial really). Then to top it off, Thor's being blasted with an attack with all of Glory's might - that had some quirky effects, that Thor tossed back likely with more power behind it due to Mjolnir's enchantments.
- He had a few encounters with the Phoenix Force in Avengers vs X-Men - more or less the latter featuring him / a team that gets wiped out - sent to try and impede it's journey to Earth. Thor's fight it and it more or less takes pauses in the fight to consume nearby planets to amp up. I could grab scans of these encounters if you'd like.
Thor restrained himself in both fights with the lower end heralds as far as I recall. Thor is certainly in the herald level range, albeit Mjolnir allows him to challenge opponents significantly above his pay-grade and win or at the very least provide a challenge. The Z-Fighters from my perspective aren't realistically sporting similar levels of durability and their attacks for the most part seem completely physical (including KI blasts) in the damage they deal to begin with - if these characters can tank it, why shouldn't Thor without breaking a sweat? The guy is sporting bone's more durable than the Surfer's skin and more or less is about as durable overall, his counter part is pulling DBZ fashion fights without the facet of being blown to bits by planet busters at point blank.