• 74 results
  • 1
  • 2

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#51 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

The problem becomes what does that excess mean, outside it is an excess? We can't decipher what these numbers mean outside what is explicitly said about them and because the creator likely didn't put any real thought into them, it makes them impossible to work an argument around them.

That's the point I was trying to make. Arguments based around these numbers are pointless because they don't mean anything.

@freefa11 said:
Now see, that's actually not logical based on the kili, since we don't have enough information to know quite how it scales. Also, Goku wasn't full powered at the time, so even if it did scale linearly, he would still get his SS2 and SS3 multipliers. Of course, busting planets doesn't scale linearly with mass either, so there's another error.

Of course, one thing the Kili statement does do is provide yet another piece of evidence that the characters are well beyond planet-busting at this point.

You're not arguing with what I said. What is well-beyond planet busting mean?

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2

Less about being farfetched and more about me exaggerating the circumstances. And it's debatable too - as I take the showing Bill still out cold from Galactus blasting him, was swallowed by the resident star going nova (given he starts outside it and it eventually envelopes him). To be quite honest, the point blank planet buster in this series was more impressive than the Nova Bill flies out of. Although again you could argue the more liberty the text provides and say otherwise that he was inside the star's core or something of the sort, but the depiction would be somewhat contradictory of that.

You're missing context in what you're responding to in the next to comments, sorry about that.

@freefa11 said:

My point was directed at how the DBU fighters fight and react to one another. In that sense, that ability to sense their opponent's movements / actions to act accordingly (despite how inconsistent with how the fights were depicted) I'm running under the notion that sensory ability won't be able to perceive Mjolnir because it lacks the properties they use to register one another and it would prevent them from reacting to one another.

@freefa11 said:

My point was to point how one could argue repeated Mjolnir strikes could destroy Cell, given his regenerative ability allows him to persist through his cells.

@freefa11 said:
Claiming that Cell Saga Cell and SS Goku were no more powerful than first form Freeza seems pretty ridiculous to me. It is made blatantly clear that Freeza's first form is puny even compared to his second, let alone his maximum power. Ignoring this boost in power is basically just trying to disregard the internal logic of the series. DBZ is really very simple compared to comics for the most part, running largely off simple ABC logic. There aren't usually a whole lot of questionable factors you might have to worry about like a Green Lantern vs. Dr. Fate vs. Superman argument. It's more of a Superman vs. Supergirl vs. General Zod argument.

Of course, western Comics use ABC logic all the time as well, and for some reason, fans don't usually have any problem when it happens in Marvel and DC. I mean, taking it out would mean Thor is more powerful than Tyrant; after all, when did Tyrant ever actually bust a planet or a solar system? When were we ever shown Tyrant busting a galaxy. Never. Thor has better feats than him, in that regard, but pretty much everyone who's read Tyrant's appearances can tell he's obviously way above Thor.

So yes, Goku, Cell, the Androids, all way beyond planet-busting. Again, Freeza's first form was a planet buster (a planet 10x the gravity of earth, so some combination of more dense and more massive). Anyone who can physically crush him like a bug, which is just about every major character after the Freeza Saga, is obviously well beyond that.

And again, even before that, Piccolo, a very weak character at the time, and nearly at the very beginning of the series, is a confirmed, on-panel moonbuster. If you include the anime, Vegeta is actually an on-screen planet-buster, and even without it, still implied. Even Freeza's first form could reasonably be well beyond the minimum for destroying earth.

Claiming? You could quite honestly argue Goku is even less durable in this situation, but there are slightly different circumstances to consider.

  1. Frieza didn't tank a planet busting attack or self-destruct - he tanked whatever measure of the explosion of the planet hit him after Goku blasted him. Said blast vaporized half of his head, as well as other parts of his body further (note: not Goku's blast, since his attack hit Frieza's other side).
  2. Goku in this sense was at ground zero of the explosion. And despite this a measure of him wasn't destroyed and absorbed by what remained of Cell, allowing Cell to pick up Instant Transmission and what have you.
  3. The only claims made about this self-destruct is that it was powerful enough to destroy the Earth - there is nothing else to work with or argue around. Planetary + logic is nonsense.

Despite the ABC format of the DBU it is inherently plagued with inconsistency in terms of power directly as a result of the author's attempts to never really move these characters past a certain point to keep things relatively the same (as that is what his audience wants) as the characters supposedly become more powerful.

Depowered Tyrant never did destroy a galaxy as far as I was aware and his main claim to fame at full power was an off-panel fight with Galactus. If he handled floored multiple characters sporting nice feats, he wouldn't be taken all that seriously in my book. So I don't disagree with your point here.

Again what is "well beyond planet-busting" equate to in an argument - especially when we're talking rocky-planet busters? There is a great lack of information in regards to planet Vegeta, outside its gravity - which arguably could be the result of whatever magic reason King Kai's planet is sporting 10x said gravity. The damn thing could be made of compacted dried marsh-mellows for all we know.

Even that full-form Frieza planet buster, consisted more so of blowing up the core and then the planet imploding as a result. The film required that first form attack to actually dig in for a while to do so too.

The only characters that survive planet busters in this series are villains, except none of them remotely intact.

@freefa11 said:
No it's not. The thing here is Cell's statement may or may not be hyperbole. We don't actually know how powerful he is, so we don't actually know for sure if he's wrong. We do know he should be way, way beyond basic planet-busting at that point, but we don't really know by how much. It could be hyperbole in the sense of just being wrong. It could also be hyperbole in the sense of him blowing up the sun, which would effectively destroy the solar system without creating an explosion that size (it would also technically be true, since you can't technically have a solar system without at least one star). It could also just be true. Later sources seem to have confirmed that it was simply true. This is not changing things after the fact, this is just clarifying what happened at that moment.

On the other hand, a statement like Mjolnir being the most powerful weapon in the universe is simply wrong. We know it is wrong. Thor loses too many fights for it to be true, and we also know that the most powerful weapon is rightfully the Ultimate Nullifier anyway. An argument could possibly be made for a Cosmic Cube (and if you include the Infinity Gauntlet, that obviously trumps both of them), but Mjolnir isn't anywhere near any of them. Hell, Mjolnir can barely even stagger Ultron most of the time.

Without hard evidence to the contrary, it is hyperbole. What he should be isn't consistent with what any of the characters should be at this point or in their futures - that's the main issue here. At the end of the day they all get panic attacks when the world is being threatened to be destroyed.

Thor isn't Mjolnir. Him losing has less to do with the hammer and more to do with Thor. You could argue the Ultimate Nullifier is a bit more than just a weapon, its an item that has destroyed multiverse and remade it just as quickly in the hands of Reed Richards. As far as the scan's concerned, that was set thousands of years prior to the present, the nullifier arguably didn't exist or at least wasn't confirmed to at that time.

Cosmic Cubes and the Gauntlet aren't weapons, items of considerable power and something that can be used offensively - sure - just not something built the around the idea for fighting. Considering some of the hammer's showings, if it isn't one of the most powerful weapons in the MU - it is up there by design. It having difficulty staggering Ultron is more of a Thor issue, in that sense writers happily having it knock Galactus on it's rear and lack that same kick to a robot. Albeit King Thor probably could swing it hard enough to have no issue cleaving Ultron's head off its shoulders.

@freefa11 said:
So, I suppose you do think someone like Superman is better than Tyrant, or Thing is stronger than Darkseid? I mean, show me Tyrant destroying a planet on-panel. Show me Darkseid with a strength feat better than class 50.
Plus, you arguing with the author is pointless anyway. If Toriyama said something about DBZ, then that's pretty much just the way it is until he contradicts himself. Saying it "after the fact" doesn't even matter, since all it really does is add clarification, it doesn't actually change anything. Plus, western comics change things "after the fact" all the time, they're called "retcons," and they are canon until something else retcons them again.

You're focusing way too much on Tyrant. We've already established him flooring multiple characters with a nice assortment of feats, which include planet busting - sometimes physically. Tyrant and Darkseid are at least sporting showings where the characters they did engage with were confirmed to capable of all the above, the Z-fighters did not. That's the issue.

The contradiction lies in the source material, that's the issue. If the characters hadn't been dying to what are claimed to planet busting attacks and nothing more from start to finish and never go beyond that destructive force themselves - it becomes a bit ridiculous to take off-hand comments by Cell that has no idea the size of the Solar System seriously. Let alone the writer who is likely on the same boat.

@freefa11 said:
Not really. Most DBZ characters sport pretty much the same power sets as well, with a few minor differences here and there that usually don't amount to much of anything. The biggest monkey wrench in the DBZ equation is the regeneration Cell and Buu have, but that only brings into question their durability, rather than speed or power, and even then, Cell's durability is still good enough to tank most of the Z-fighter's shots.

The Z-Fighters aren't sporting the same power, just the same power set - at least for the most part.

The problem is Cell can't tank their shots. Vegeta blasted clear through him (and he was significantly weaker) simply using a blast with enough power to destroy the planet. Goku did the same thing, arguably Krillin could potentially have been able to kill Cell if allowed to.

@freefa11 said:
I don't know why you think that would be ironic. All of the Buu's obviously have an extreme form of regen instead of high durability, and Kid Buu did survive. Also, there is, again, no reason to believe that blast was merely a planet-buster, and plenty of reason to believe it was well beyond that.

I don't remember the context of the irony. The Buu's are fairly durable (its more so their elasticity) and are sporting a much higher pain tolerance than most of the cast ever did.

Did it destroy a planet? Yes. Did it destroy anything past that? No. Did Kid Buu have any reason at all to hold back or concentrate the attack? No. What else would I call it instead of a planet buster? There's no indication anything else was destroyed as a result.

I don't differentiate between the points Masterson had Mjolnir and Thunderstrike. Even with Mjolnir in tow he couldn't even handle Thor in a one on one fight, he's remarkably unremarkable compared to Thor.

Because Thor from the Avengers would lose to the Thor from his own book. You could write it off to him holding back too much or simply the obvious matter of the power leap he has over his fellow teammates - which is an issue for a lot characters in fiction on the same boat.

Good point on the usage of decades old scans, albeit even if I only did that once in regards to him being in the sun. (due to the lack of scans showing him doing so often and me not wanting to use Beta Ray Bill showings in place holder for Thor simply to argue on the same merits as posters in DBU threads tend to do). The closet modern showings either have him right in-front of it or a more recent reference to how he apparently will move to the sun to become a cosmic god cop.

Its really a matter of preference for me. Albeit in terms of having issues with his opponents speeds, it seems to primarily be an Achilles heel in older Avenger books - or more recent era books when fighting Wolverine one on one and becomes a slower version with the Hulk with lightning, despite one-shotting Wolverine in Uncanny Avengers (I guess Hickman disagrees with whomsoever wrote Wolverine vs Thor - that fight where Wolverine tanks Thor lightning light a champ and can magically appear on-top of him in the air).

@freefa11 said:
You mean the re-enactment that showed Mr. Satan crushing Cell by himself? Yeah, I would say they didn't see much of anything that really happened if they found that outcome even remotely plausible.
The camera crews or the camera's didn't capture the ending to the Cell Games, for that part they relied on Hercule's interpretation of events. And since when did DBZ depict humanity as remotely intelligent outside Bulma?
@freefa11 said:
I'm pretty sure Mjolnir can move at speeds less than 2c.
I actually apologize for that. That was written very poorly, I meant more so at it's slowest confirmed max speed - at least on panel. Thor has showings where it's being flung to the furthest end of the galaxy and returning within his 60 second time limit (In said showing, reverted to human - but grabbed the staff that had returned in arm - reach and struck it in space). That's probably the best speed feat of the hammer to date, out pacing the Surfer, while impressive, is unquantifiable.
@freefa11 said:
They obviously use their eyes, they just use them differently than normal. Even when Piccolo was explaining to Gohan how to do it, you will note he never actually told him to close his eyes or not use them at all.
Obviously, they do. But in terms of how it's explained, they really don't. Confusing? Yes.
@freefa11 said:
There is nothing unreasonable about using author statements to clarify an event from his work.
Clarification is nice, the problem is the actual event itself isn't consistent with that clarification. Just because the author say's one thing doesn't necessarily make it true. For example, when Hickman answers a question of a "fan" - about Franklin's death while the Celestials, despite quite clearly blowing himself to smithereens and Galactus reviving him, he gives a somewhat fumbled short sentence answer that he didn't die. A better example is the McDuffie one, but I hate referencing it more than once.
Now if Toriyama wanted people to believe his characters were that powerful, he would have depicted it, not in off-hand comments in the dialogue or a later interview, fan questions or book. Because the latter is supplementary and can be argued not to be consistent with the actual material in question.
@freefa11 said:
Making a planet larger but keeping the mass the same would actually make it have less gravity. In order for the planet to have 10x the gravity of earth, it has to have higher density or higher mass, or some combination of the two. King Kai's planet would have to have ludicrously high density.

And DBZ hardly has a monopoly on inconsistency. DC, off the top of my head, has quoted the moon as having a mass 9 orders of magnitude less than it should, and has drawn it being less than 180,000 km from the earth, when it should be nearly twice that. In fact, just about any illustration you'll find in comics of the earth and moon will show it being much closer than it should be.

Of course, something we do know about planet Vegeta is that it was apparently large enough to accommodate the populations (and evolutions of those populations) of two sentient species, one of which had every member of its race transform into giant ape beings during a full moon, and the other being a highly advanced civilization. And you apparently feel that it is appropriate to compare this to a strange and unique planet that exists in the after life, not normal space, and is home to a whopping 3 inhabitants? Yeah, I see no reason to take King Kai's planet as being anything other than what it was, which was highly anomalous.

We've seen the inside of King Kai's planet. It's more or less a floating ball of dirt / rock - lacking even a metallic core. The reason the gravity is as potent as it is - well... is the magic of the DBU. We have even less to go on for planet Vegeta.
I don't see the point of posting further inconsistency in fiction. There's a ton of it out there. My point was more so directed how Toriyama doesn't even bother to make an attempt to have his universe remotely similar to reality, outside there being an Earth and a Moon and a Sun. From there we've got dinosaurs or even more bizarre plant people or Wereapes.
You could infer that it was sporting a large population, albeit most of the civilizations in the DBU are anything but. Namek is more or less made up of small towns across an entire world and the Earth has a few cities between seemingly endless amounts of deserts and dinosaurs. Earth there is likely sporting a few million people at best. It was an after life where being dead or alive meant little. Honestly there is no reason to assume simply because of it's location that this anomaly in regards to gravity is exclusive to King Kai's world.
@freefa11 said:
I'm not even sure why you would mention this. You already think Thor is capable of disintegrating Cell and is practically impervious to his attacks; obviously you'd have to argue that beings more powerful than Thor would do even better, unless you were a blatant hypocrite. Of course, just about anyone who knows much about Galactus will tell you he could disintegrate Thor himself if he had the mind to do so. Thor has been stalemated by Firelord more than once, had a hard time with Airwalker, and a few hard times with the Silver Surfer. He is only around high Herald level. Glory is supposed to be powerful, but at the same time has what, 2 or 3 appearances? Do we have real confirmation of its power? What about its durability? The Phoenix fight I haven't seen, so I can't comment there.
It was intended to make a point. If the team has such power, power to effortlessly win this fight - would they be capable of replicating Thor's performance against these characters?
  • I'm fully aware of how much more powerful Galactus is than Thor and he could have Thor cease to exist if he had any interest in it. My thought is, could Goku released a kamahameha that could knock Galactus over / knock him back? Could he survive a casual blast from Galactus - to the same degree Galactus has used to knock Beta Ray Bill out or have Thor struggling to get up as Galactus reaches to finish him?
  • For Glory, Glory was assaulting Thor's mind, body and essence. In Glory's initial appearance, it's crushing planets with its bear hands (and of course clearly altering it's size when fighting Thor - given how much smaller it becomes). When Thor flings himself into it, he finds himself in a strange landscape and assaulted by Glory's inner defenses that require a whirl-wind - likely the most powerful Thor's produced - to defend himself (it was akin to the showing where Thor put himself inside a Celestial really). Then to top it off, Thor's being blasted with an attack with all of Glory's might - that had some quirky effects, that Thor tossed back likely with more power behind it due to Mjolnir's enchantments.
  • He had a few encounters with the Phoenix Force in Avengers vs X-Men - more or less the latter featuring him / a team that gets wiped out - sent to try and impede it's journey to Earth. Thor's fight it and it more or less takes pauses in the fight to consume nearby planets to amp up. I could grab scans of these encounters if you'd like.

Thor restrained himself in both fights with the lower end heralds as far as I recall. Thor is certainly in the herald level range, albeit Mjolnir allows him to challenge opponents significantly above his pay-grade and win or at the very least provide a challenge. The Z-Fighters from my perspective aren't realistically sporting similar levels of durability and their attacks for the most part seem completely physical (including KI blasts) in the damage they deal to begin with - if these characters can tank it, why shouldn't Thor without breaking a sweat? The guy is sporting bone's more durable than the Surfer's skin and more or less is about as durable overall, his counter part is pulling DBZ fashion fights without the facet of being blown to bits by planet busters at point blank.

@freefa11 said:

Wow, do you even know what Thor's lowest showing is? Because I think it would be tough to find something for adult Goku lower than thisI suppose that boat mast must have been falling faster than the speed of light, and with more force than a supernova or the blasts of various Abstracts. Because we know Marvel isn't inconsistent like the DBU or anything.
That mast must have been falling at FTL speeds and with a force greater than that of the Destroyer's disintegration beams! Honestly Mongoose seems to be more of Thor's low end Kryptonite than that ships mast falling on him, but you could debate it. But Goku's low ends (at least canon to his GT counter-part) are pretty bad. Everything from that rock toss by Krillin on his head that had him writhing in pain in Cell Saga (canon to GT), to GT Goku at SSJ4 being cut by glass or being pummeled by strikes that couldn't even knock him through a building. He took a nose-dive power wise in GT at what is supposedly his most powerful form.
But even if we aren't going by low ends - according to GT temperatures Thor and the Surfer can't even feel burn them and they go outright into a panic over planet busters. That makes an argument that they can win this seem a bit unbelievable when Thor only needs to let go of his hammer to have them both on the ground or use it's versatility from energy absorption (as in draining their KI or arguably their life force), redirecting their attacks multiplied or coming up with something quirky. The sky's the limit. Literally, the Sky's the limit, winds of a thousand worlds or magic bolts of lightning that he can produce without the hammer.

#52 Posted by xlab3000 (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Goku was not moving ftl in none of those images or the video that's supersonic-sub relativistic reactions and travel speed.

#53 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: In combat speed he would be moving at FTL speeds and during the course of the series many of the DB characters begin to move at those speeds. During Dragon Ball, Goku as a kid is trained to move faster than lightning, he dodges bullets, lasers and once he gets older moves so fast that Kami is not able to see him and this Goku in base form, he dodges Frieza`s death beams close range and travels around Namek in a second, things that happen within DBZ probably don`t happen in real time and perception in regards to hypersonic speeds.

#55 Edited by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor nor Hulk can hurt what they can not hit, superior combat speed wins the team of SS4 Goku and Super Perfect Cell this battle. No need to make it much more complicated than that.

#56 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

If Thor managed to swipe Goku with Mjolnir = Dead Goku

If Thor managed to strike SSj4 with his lightning = Dead Goku

If Hulk managed to lock hands with SSJ4 Goku = Dead Goku

If Goku wants it over quickly = Dead Hulk and Thor via small energy blast created in base form. Hell, no need to go beyond Raditz's power level. 1,500 is more than enough to incinerate Hulk with a concussive blast of planetary magnitude. I do not think a Casual Hulk can survive a moon busting attack, let alone a planetary one. Thor definitely can. He can also handle the heat of a sun, I think. I do not think Nova shenron can, I think he lied and exaggerated about his heat potential, as the earth should have instantly ignited and killed everyone if he generated that much heat. I also think Perfect Cell lied flat out about his solar busting capabilities. Lies and exaggeration, intimidation tactics, nothing more. The evidence speaks against those feats and proves they are just scare tactics. If gokus kili energy is at 3000, and 300 destroys the earth the calculations based on the DB guide book prove that SSJ4 Goku can destroy a planet 40,000 times the size/mass of the earth with a great deal of struggle. The sun is 1 million times as massive as Earth, and SSJ4 Goku needs to be 25x as strong to destroy a solid object that is the mass of the sun. SSJ4 Gogeta should be able to accomplish the destruction of the sun, SSJ4 cannot.

The sun has 99% of the mass of the solar system, its mostly empty space. So, Perfect cell saying he can wipe out the solar system is really working against him. Its not hard to destroy floating rocks and empty space. It would be hard however to blow up a solid planetary object the size of the solar system and with equal mass relative to its size. That = what most DB fanboys think Cell meant. That is simply not true. SSj4 Goku cannot destroy the sun, but Perfect Cell can? Uh...no sorry.

Having said that, I think Raditz would not have any trouble with Hulk. He would have a great deal of trouble with Thor who is much much faster. Thor and Hulks physical strength is far beyond anyone in dragonball. However, thats raw power. Everyone showcases the ability to augment their physical strength via ki. With that method, goku still wasn't able to lift a small city block of a street. Canon or not, its all you have to use as evidence for Gokus physical strength. SSJ3 and prior really do not have much to go on. Classic hulk = billions of ton bench press / Goku = nowhere near 1 million ton. Everything beyond that is 100% speculation or made up feats Goku never achieved visually.

#57 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Now the reason why I think Team 1 wins pretty easily is because of the simple fact of speed in regards to the gap that separates the differences.

Now Thor`s hammer Mjonir might move at FTL speeds but Goku and Cell fight as well as react at FTL speeds when in combat on top of all that they have Instant Transmission which is probably three times or more the speed of light. They could react and respond to Thor before he even throws Mjonir, Hulk would be down and out in the beginning also it would be two on one and I don`t think Mjonir would hit the both of them that easily.

This is Kid Goku dodging lasers, bullets, and being trained to move faster than lightning as he also learns to train his mind to react at those rates within the flowing courses of movement. Goku even dodges Tien`s Solar Flare and grabs his glasses before he could even notice, lightning as we all know travels at 0.5 the speed of light which would mean Goku as a kid would have half the speed of light in terms of combat speed which is very impressive considering he was only a kid at the time and was still in training.

Master Roshi and Krillin are slower than Goku but they were fighting and moving in 1/10 of a second as they were reacting and thinking at centisecond. But Goku surpasses them in overall speed as a kid and so on so forth.

Now Piccolo pretty much blew up the moon in about two seconds it takes light 1.23 seconds to travel to the earth from the moon and the time it takes the light to refract back directly to Piccolo is something worth noting which would ultimately mean that his blast is FTL.

Now Power Levels do help within the establishing of Dragon Ball and many misunderstand the actual concept. They are there to help distinguish characters in terms of power and it is a very systematical method in which these things can be further explained. Power Levels are connected with ki as well.

Raditz dodges Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which was basically going at light speed and he had a PL of 1200 or 1200+

This beam is also called the Beam of Light or implied as the Light of Death and Raditz is able to dodge it with not much trouble or avoid with not much trouble.

Goku is able to react to Nappa`s energy beam with a Kamehameha attack during the courses of the fight. Vegeta`s even surprised that he is able to react to the attack at that distance and this is Goku in base form.

Goku is able to move so fast that Recoome, Burter and Jeice cannot keep up with him as he reappears right behind them instantly and the three of them had a PL of 40,000+. This is evidently shown within the following video of a scene depicted from the anime itself.

Vegeta could not even see Frieza`s death beams and it further proves the idea of how the speed of the beams that are fired within DBZ increase but another interesting fact is that Vegeta receives an increase in power and is later able to avoid the beams this confirms that the higher power level you are the faster you become.

Goku in base form is able to block Frieza`s FTL beams in base form.

Goku gets trapped and imprisoned in the Imprisonment Light Ball by Frieza but he is able to break out of it and he dodged in an instant, he was moving at FTL speeds also Piccolo compares Goku`s speed to that of a god as he further explains it.

Goku also has Instant Transmission in which he was able to go from earth to the afterlife and in doing that cross or pass the 1 million KM Snake Way in an instant. It was used again to traverse to a place that is even beyond heaven passed the 1 million KM, every single one of the Kai planets and the afterlife itself in which it progresses to Namek which is in another Galaxy. Goku has used Instant Transmission in combat before as well and he is very clever when using it. Now also as shown in one of the scans Goku moves so fast that Kami is unable to see him and this is base form Goku with Instant Transmission adding to that incredible speed it would make Goku and Cell too much for Thor.

It took the Spaceship a couple of seconds to reach Jupiter and it takes light 32-54 minutes to reach Jupiter from Earth.

Therefore the Spaceship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster then Light Speed Travel

And since it took the ship over 10 days to get to Namek, and Goku traveled to Namek in an instant, from King Kai's planet.

Using the Instant Transmission to travel across the galaxy, and between dimensions to Namek.

His Instant Transmission

speed is thousands of times faster then light,

and can be used to cross dimensions between living and dead. This would be a huge factor and requires little to no Ki.

Goku has trained to use it without putting a finger to his head.

Goku also can use telekinesis and so can Cell.

Goku also has kiai which is the energy that surrounds DBZ characters and he can use it offensively.

Now Goku`s punches should be able to hurt Thor as well.

In SSJ1 form he is able to hurt Frieza who has planetary+ durability and his striking feats are very impressive.

Able to destroy mountains and islands in base form.

Another new and interesting striking feat is when he punched a hole through King Kai`s planet which has 10x the gravity of Earth and is far more durable, also he didn`t directly punch through the planet with his fist but more so it occurred due to the striking force which resulted from his fist which makes it more impressive. This is Goku in SSJ3 form.

2:27 - 2:40

In his kid form he was able to send Super 17 flying across the earth all the way to the arctic and this is not even SSJ4 Goku but Base. Now in SSJ4 form as his ki level increases along with his power, his striking force would be a lot greater when in that form.

Now another important point is the Super Dragon Fist technique which Goku used on Hirudegarn, Super 17 and Omega Shenron.

Now this attack is a deadly and very powerful attack it is in regards to raw power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku`s Kamehameha and base Goku`s Kamehameha which destroyed as well as broke through an entire dimension. The attack ends in a very explosive manner and leaves the victim brutally destroyed, I don`t think Thor would be able to take this attack directly.

Now Goku`s punches will be able to hurt Thor and the problem is that Thor wouldn`t be able to react to his crazy speed. Thor also has to deal with Cell at the same time, and Cell also uses Instant Transmission, I don`t think Thor would be able to throw Mjonir fast enough in order to react to Goku and Cell`s movements even if he throws it at Goku who`s not to say that Cell would just IT behind him and deliver a Solar Kamehameha which is a solar system busting attack. Now although I want to post a lot more, I decided to keep this post simple for now and not too long but I will add more points maybe at a later time, I wanted to showcase Goku`s combat speed and striking power although there is a lot more to discuss.

Now in terms of raw destructive power, that is where DBZ characters excel and Goku as well as Cell`s attacks will definitely be able to hurt Thor.

Goku in his base form is able to break through and destroy an entire dimension evidence as shown is the dimension cracking as the explosion leads Goku and Sugoro to the other side as they enter into another dimension or realm, the attack itself is still impressive even if some were to argue that it only broke through the dimension this is base form Goku not even entering into SSJ1, SSJ2 or SSJ3 which multiplies a Saiyan`s power by a great degree especially their destructive power that results from ki size and ki control. In SSJ4 form he would be far more powerful in every aspect and I doubt Thor would be able to take a Kamehameha from a SSJ4 Goku and as explained within the Daizenshuus, Goku in SSJ1 form not powered up had 3000 kili as measured by Babidi in which he could destroy 10-15 planets, it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets and that`s Goku in SSJ1 form, this means that his destructive output is above planetary level by far.

#58 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

You do know that once Goku destroyed the dimension he appeared in another location, notice how the dimension cracks which means Goku destroyed it doesn`t get more simpler than that. Also I provided the episodes for a reason so that you may understand the story and not take things out of context. Also notice how Goku receives back his power at 0:29 in which he is able to be transported beyond the dimension in which they rescued by a Supreme Kai and the dimension is totally gone once Goku fires the Kamehameha, can you prove that it was still there? Another dimension could be beyond the one Goku destroyed and broke through successfully but does it mean he didn`t destroy a dimension? No. He caused the dimension to shatter and then he was able to break through the barriers surrounding it thus enabling him to teleport beyond it, he shattered that dimension and proceeded to another and that`s still a lot of power to consider since that`s base form not SSJ4.

You clearly don`t understand DBZ and how it works, which is why I posted the links in the first place. No need to give attitude.

He was teleported into another location. That doesn't require the dimension in question to be destroyed at all. It cracking also doesn't mean it was destroyed, you're simply inferring it was - the issue is however nothing about what was said even implies he destroyed it. He simply, as I quoted "broke through" as the Supreme Kai put it, before saving him from planet busting asteroids of course. Anything more than he escaped it / blasted his way out is an assumption, one that contradicts the actual scene in question. Like I said if you don't agree, don't bother to try and convince me when I've already pointed out the flaw in arguing this showing is something that it isn't. And why using it in an argument is entirely pointless to begin with.

Going the route of "can you prove it was still there?" simply spawns the question "can you prove it isn't?" How do you know it was a lot of power? The only indication of power was the hyperbole about him having enough power to light up a galaxy and that quite literally means nothing.

This whole "then you clearly don't know" blah blah is pointless posturing at this point. It's clear I have some idea what I'm talking about. Its like YuYu Hakusho, except not as good.

Handbooks help support feats and are supplementary, but it doesn`t mean that they are less credible and Akira`s handbooks go along with the feats presented within Dragon Ball just as god_spawn said they can go along with feats which is explained in Cell`s case, the many feats regarding the methodical systems of power levels and scaling proves this point nothing contradicts what Cell says and the handbooks are there to supply the information to further the overall idea it doesn`t mean they are inaccurate and to say that another handbook accounts for all doesn`t make any sense its like your generalizing the DBZ handbooks by using others as an inaccurate example. There are no contradictions for Cell`s statement unlike the other handbooks you mentioned, so you cannot argue it or against it by saying feats, feats and feats. Handbooks are very important, Akira wrote the handbooks to give a better idea of why certain things occurred in DBZ, this is why I posted the links also because of your arguments, you clearly do not know anything about DBZ in regards to the fundamentals and etc. Its Akira`s characters and its his world, of course he is going to provide a general idea in regards to why certain things happen your just being stubborn, I only mentioned textbook and school as an example, your stretching it beyond what I truly meant. Author`s words and official information published>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your opinion and bias. No contradiction, no argumentation.

Anything outside the source material is less credible than the actual source material. Regardless of whomsoever wrote it or commented as an answer to a question in an interview. Just because Ian McKellen says Gandalf could beat Magneto in a fight, doesn't stop Magneto from dropping a bridge on him. Just like when McDuffie is saying Static Shock is more powerful than Magneto despite Magneto being his superior on panel. Toriyama is no different than McDuffie when he claims his characters can do things, yet they never show being capable of anything close.

If you want to make the thread Static Shock vs Magneto, go ahead, you can quote McDuffie all day there and likely people aren't going to care.

The Contradiction with Cell, as I've mentioned before is him and every other character in the series not even coming close to doing what he made an off-hand comment about - despite not having a clue about he was talking about. So far the cast has stuck to destroying small rocky planets like Earth, anything more than that has not happened outside a Broly movie - and even then he blasted the galaxy in King Kai's head with pixels as Goku then goes to the destroyed Galaxy that is still there. The reason you're using the hand-book at all is because you can't argue otherwise without it - that's the only place Cell is a solar system buster in (at least according to you, I don't know Japanese so I can't comment).

1. Numbers that apply to the universe of Dragon Ball, you clearly do not know anything about this universe. Ki Control helps the characters focus their attacks or ki blasts, also Akira also mentioned Ki Size within the Daizenshuus in which it was also an important factor, Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta which has 10x the gravity of Earth, both Piccolo and Roshi destroyed the moon with low Power Levels during the beginning of the series, Kid Buu destroyed multiple worlds and as Goku could sense energy it is stated that he has enough power to destroy 10 planets. The level of power and progression is being scaled, power levels distinguish characters in regards to how powerful they are or can be and it relates to ki as well.

2. Hyperbole and fan-fiction? So I guess Piccolo`s or Raditz`s ki attacks don`t mean anything, right? This is why I recommended this thread and I suggest you check it out instead of being stubborn, this link describes and explains everything but your being too stubborn to acknowledge anything, I don`t believe you are a fan of DBZ. http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/4055-46445/forums/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters-679193/

3. Ki attributes and contributes to everything. I don`t need to waste my time in explaining the obvious when it is so obviously clear. As explained here, the many things you pointed out here do not make sense at all. This explains everything. Now if you want to understand DBZ then your going to have to check out these threads instead of being stubborn and in denial.

1. I've already pointed out the flaw in using the arbitrary power-level numbers. Outside what is explicitly said about them, we have no idea what they mean. The different between a PL of 139 and 50,000,000 could be a lot smaller than we think - the problem is we don't know. Basing an argument off them at best is poor speculation. Kid Buu destroyed multiple worlds over years. How in god's name is that a worthwhile feat? As in "he can destroy 10 worlds" or "well if you divide this PL by this PL required to Earth bust...."?

2. They don't mean anything outside of the context they're being used.

3. Expect for normal bodily functions, such as breathing or the immune system and probably a few more things if we sat down to think about it. But "everything" is a bit of a stretch. The obvious is so obviously clear, eh?

I already proved why he is a Solar System Buster and did you forget that Cell can sense energy as he also stores energy as well? Cell is very intelligent and he even said himself that he gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system. Your just going to ignore because you dismiss DBZ logic, I suppose. Its Akira`s story, characters and world not yours, if he didn`t care then why would he elaborate on throughout the handbooks, guidebooks and etc? The PL, and PS systems are there for a reason.

You found a scan of him finally solar-system busting? Oh never mind. You keep muttering on about me dismissing logic - but in truth I'm simply dismissing the argument you're presenting me with because of it's inherent flaws. Cell or anyone in the cast simply never does anything close to a multi-light year range attack that could envelope something as large as the solar system. We have no idea if he even knows what a Solar System is, let alone can sense how large it is. They are systems that are undecipherable - that mainly exist as a method of saying "X character is more powerful than Y character".

What? How does that exactly contradict with what I was saying? Arbitrary numbers? Goku in SSJ1 form not powered nor low in number, these are the principles of DBZ and these numbers are there to explain the methods regarding power in association to the characters. The other scans in regards to Frieza show us more of the history of what truly happened. Babidi used a power meter which is just as good as a scouter, what are you talking about? He measured Goku in SSJ1 form, hair on the pointy side? Lol. You forget the fact that within the guidebooks and handbooks that it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets, Goku in SSJ1 form powered down had 3,000 through the measurements of kili and the Power Meter is successful in determining these things but your just going to deny it and favor Marvel/DC over this although they themselves don`t provide a lot of info for certain characters but only statements and status implications. Goku in SSJ3 would have a dramatic increase in power with 3,000 kili he would be able to destroy 10-15 planets and that is SSJ1 form not SSJ3 or SSJ4.

Are you ignoring or skimming through what I actually said? I said charging an attack or powering up either of the two. You can accept it or deny but it doesn`t change the facts and its not simply ABC logic as you are describing it.

Wrong. There`s an actual system of how it is applied also the author had them there for a reason, they stopped being used because the villains could not measure the DBZ Fighters and their special techniques in regards to multipliers.

Strange. Legitimate? If you are complaining about the length of my posts then you shouldn`t debate, if you don`t understand DBZ and don`t like how things are done then don`t enter a DBZ thread its that simple, I don`t think there is any point to this debate since you won`t accept how feats are done and established by the author and creator, like I said I have debated many people like you before and the questionability could lie with you in regards to what your intentions are when it comes to debating and what it truly means, Death Certificate and VinoVash1234 are good examples of individuals who share your disbeliefs and biases.

They're numbers that mean quite honestly in the real world nothing. You cannot explain the difference between a power level of 139 and a power level of 500,000,000 - because there are no methods to decipher that difference into something we can understand or argue. Even when we do try to play with the confirmed numbers, they fall vastly short of what they are claimed capable of in these arguments.

His power meter is just as good as a scouter? Do you not see how these statements can't be taken seriously in an argument because of the total lack of information to make that call? You question a lot why I dismiss so much of what you say are plainly you're assumptions - it's mainly because you keep making a lot of them in order to argue your points. I have no idea why you can't see that. Not only that but to completely ignore the point that all planets are not remotely created equal makes these arguments even more ambiguous.

It's one thing to debate, it's another thing to needlessly create large posts to spam threads. You have options, options that can cut you're posts to a quarter of the size. If you choose not to, then you're spamming without much consideration to anyone that does click on the thread. Well if I don't know anything about the DBU, I certainly know how to interact with posters in arguments that claim they do. It's less about bias and more to do so with the inconsistency from the series /

#59 Posted by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Cell cannot destroy a solar system, everyone exaggerates. Piccolo said Freeza was like a God, pretty much everyone says they are stronger, then they fight, and they find out they overestimated their abilities. That is how DB goes. Exaggeration Ball Z.

Having said that. Neither Hulk nor Thor couldn't handle Roshis moon buster. However, if anyone of them got hit with Mjolnir, they are doomed.

#60 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

Now the reason why I think Team 1 wins pretty easily is because of the simple fact of speed in regards to the gap that separates the differences.

  • Now Thor`s hammer Mjonir might move at FTL speeds but Goku and Cell fight as well as react at FTL speeds when in combat on top of all that they have Instant Transmission which is probably three times or more the speed of light. They could react and respond to Thor before he even throws Mjonir, Hulk would be down and out in the beginning also it would be two on one and I don`t think Mjonir would hit the both of them that easily.
  • This is Kid Goku dodging lasers, bullets, and being trained to move faster than lightning as he also learns to train his mind to react at those rates within the flowing courses of movement. Goku even dodges Tien`s Solar Flare and grabs his glasses before he could even notice, lightning as we all know travels at 0.5 the speed of light which would mean Goku as a kid would have half the speed of light in terms of combat speed which is very impressive considering he was only a kid at the time and was still in training.
  • Master Roshi and Krillin are slower than Goku but they were fighting and moving in 1/10 of a second as they were reacting and thinking at centisecond. But Goku surpasses them in overall speed as a kid and so on so forth.
  • Now Piccolo pretty much blew up the moon in about two seconds it takes light 1.23 seconds to travel to the earth from the moon and the time it takes the light to refract back directly to Piccolo is something worth noting which would ultimately mean that his blast is FTL.
  • Now Power Levels do help within the establishing of Dragon Ball and many misunderstand the actual concept. They are there to help distinguish characters in terms of power and it is a very systematical method in which these things can be further explained. Power Levels are connected with ki as well.
  • Raditz dodges Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which was basically going at light speed and he had a PL of 1200 or 1200+
  • This beam is also called the Beam of Light or implied as the Light of Death and Raditz is able to dodge it with not much trouble or avoid with not much trouble.
  • Goku is able to react to Nappa`s energy beam with a Kamehameha attack during the courses of the fight. Vegeta`s even surprised that he is able to react to the attack at that distance and this is Goku in base form.
  • Goku is able to move so fast that Recoome, Burter and Jeice cannot keep up with him as he reappears right behind them instantly and the three of them had a PL of 40,000+. This is evidently shown within the following video of a scene depicted from the anime itself.
  • Vegeta could not even see Frieza`s death beams and it further proves the idea of how the speed of the beams that are fired within DBZ increase but another interesting fact is that Vegeta receives an increase in power and is later able to avoid the beams this confirms that the higher power level you are the faster you become.
  • Goku in base form is able to block Frieza`s FTL beams in base form.
  • Goku gets trapped and imprisoned in the Imprisonment Light Ball by Frieza but he is able to break out of it and he dodged in an instant, he was moving at FTL speeds also Piccolo compares Goku`s speed to that of a god as he further explains it.Goku also has Instant Transmission in which he was able to go from earth to the afterlife and in doing that cross or pass the 1 million KM Snake Way in an instant. It was used again to traverse to a place that is even beyond heaven passed the 1 million KM, every single one of the Kai planets and the afterlife itself in which it progresses to Namek which is in another Galaxy. Goku has used Instant Transmission in combat before as well and he is very clever when using it. Now also as shown in one of the scans Goku moves so fast that Kami is unable to see him and this is base form Goku with Instant Transmission adding to that incredible speed it would make Goku and Cell too much for Thor.
  • It took the Spaceship a couple of seconds to reach Jupiter and it takes light 32-54 minutes to reach Jupiter from Earth.
  • Therefore the Spaceship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster then Light Speed Travel
  • And since it took the ship over 10 days to get to Namek, and Goku traveled to Namek in an instant, from King Kai's planet.
  • Using the Instant Transmission to travel across the galaxy, and between dimensions to Namek.
  • His Instant Transmission
  • speed is thousands of times faster then light,
  • and can be used to cross dimensions between living and dead. This would be a huge factor and requires little to no Ki.
  • Goku has trained to use it without putting a finger to his head.

You realize Instant Tranmission has no confirmed speed and is simply teleportation that requires basic thought to begin with right? Namely why Goku couldn't save Gohan, Goten, Trunks from Kid Buu's attack that destroyed Earth (despite that planet busting + durability and Kid Buu having no reason to hold back I guess). But I guess if it makes them move at 3X the speed of light Thor is doomed. Oh wait.

Crosses to the furthest part of the galaxy and back in just over 60 seconds (namely why Thor turns back into Blake, but Mjolnir / Stick was close enough for Thor to grab and use). Guess he can throw it faster than the Instant Transmission, certainly much faster than thousands of times the speed of light to boot. =( <--- You see that sad face, it is completely legitimate.

Just to note:

  • Lightning has a great deal of variance in terms of how fast it is.
  • Can't confirm the Moon-Buster speed.
  • Exaggerations of Goku and Cell's speed since the vast majority of time the DBZ cast is standing still punching one another or blasting one another.

@neongamewave said:

  • Goku also can use telekinesis and so can Cell.
  • Goku also has kiai which is the energy that surrounds DBZ characters and he can use it offensively.

Not remotely worth a mention, blasting dirt apart or crushing Krillin is not sufficient to say they can do much to a character sporting bones harder than the Silver Surfer's skin and has been in the sun without so much as an indication that the extreme gravity / pressure has had any effect on him.

Ignore the hammer toss. Regardless, the Surfer's skin holds up to quite a degree of things, black holes, stars, super-nova. The level of telekinesis in the DBU is a negligible mention. The fact Thor can hit that hard with his head also means he could poke holes in them simply smashing his face into them.

@neongamewave said:

Now Goku`s punches should be able to hurt Thor as well.

  • In SSJ1 form he is able to hurt Frieza who has planetary+ durability and his striking feats are very impressive.
  • Able to destroy mountains and islands in base form.
  • Another new and interesting striking feat is when he punched a hole through King Kai`s planet which has 10x the gravity of Earth and is far more durable, also he didn`t directly punch through the planet with his fist but more so it occurred due to the striking force which resulted from his fist which makes it more impressive. This is Goku in SSJ3 form.
  • 2:27 - 2:40
  • In his kid form he was able to send Super 17 flying across the earth all the way to the arctic and this is not even SSJ4 Goku but Base. Now in SSJ4 form as his ki level increases along with his power, his striking force would be a lot greater when in that form.
  • Now another important point is the Super Dragon Fist technique which Goku used on Hirudegarn, Super 17 and Omega Shenron.
  • Now this attack is a deadly and very powerful attack it is in regards to raw power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku`s Kamehameha and base Goku`s Kamehameha which destroyed as well as broke through an entire dimension. The attack ends in a very explosive manner and leaves the victim brutally destroyed, I don`t think Thor would be able to take this attack directly.Now Goku`s punches will be able to hurt Thor and the problem is that Thor wouldn`t be able to react to his crazy speed. Thor also has to deal with Cell at the same time, and Cell also uses Instant Transmission, I don`t think Thor would be able to throw Mjonir fast enough in order to react to Goku and Cell`s movements even if he throws it at Goku who`s not to say that Cell would just IT behind him and deliver a Solar Kamehameha which is a solar system busting attack. Now although I want to post a lot more, I decided to keep this post simple for now and not too long but I will add more points maybe at a later time, I wanted to showcase Goku`s combat speed and striking power although there is a lot more to discuss.
  • Now in terms of raw destructive power, that is where DBZ characters excel and Goku as well as Cell`s attacks will definitely be able to hurt Thor.
  • Goku in his base form is able to break through and destroy an entire dimension evidence as shown is the dimension cracking as the explosion leads Goku and Sugoro to the other side as they enter into another dimension or realm, the attack itself is still impressive even if some were to argue that it only broke through the dimension this is base form Goku not even entering into SSJ1, SSJ2 or SSJ3 which multiplies a Saiyan`s power by a great degree especially their destructive power that results from ki size and ki control. In SSJ4 form he would be far more powerful in every aspect and I doubt Thor would be able to take a Kamehameha from a SSJ4 Goku and as explained within the Daizenshuus, Goku in SSJ1 form not powered up had 3000 kili as measured by Babidi in which he could destroy 10-15 planets, it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets and that`s Goku in SSJ1 form, this means that his destructive output is above planetary level by far.

He was able to hurt Frieza before going SSJ. Regardless this muttering about planet+durability doesn't exist. Frieza didn't tank a planet buster, he tanked a planet exploding on him and it blew half his head off in the process - and he was dying as a result. That isn't tanking anything. The one chance Frieza had to tank a planet buster from Vegeta, he choose tor deflect it rather than tank it.

Why does destroying mountains matter? We've got showings in this thread that clearly indicate a tremendous amount more is required to even phase Thor.

Except King Kai's planet isn't more durable than the Earth. It's made of rock and dirt - punching Goku through it made that evidence - arguing how it's ten times more durable than the Earth is simply a lie. Thor tanks attacks that consist of him being bull-rushed from the Earth's Moon to Mars.

Read from right to left

And quite literally hits hard enough to have people appear in orbit:

Nul / Hulk has no idea what just happened and this was a Thor that was sporting a wound that kills him later on.

Since you don't care to be truthful and want to argue using ridiculous arguments, have fun with it:

Thor is lucky he isn't a dimension I guess. Either way Thor tanks attacks that target his "mind, body and spirit", attacks eating at his very soul, then was hit by an attack that blasting him through worlds, time, heavens and hells - which he raises his hammer to absorb and kill Glory (for a bit).

So for abstract tanking feats, like survive Goku's not-so-dimension-busting-attack-stop-lying-x-SSJ4 I think Thor's good. You know since his body physically transcends dimensions (that must mean he has dimension durability+).

I don't know man, Thor's tanken shots from Galactus, who is a universe buster. Sure we don't know how powerful those attacks where, but since Galactus can control his KI... I mean cosmic blasts to precisely deliver damage - it could be even more.

But lets not forget Hyperion, he survived two universes going boom around him:

And the Hulk can hurt him, and who can hurt the Hulk? Thor. That's who.

Clearly this proves Thor has universe - busting durability + as he was getting back up. Albeit the funny thing is a character like Hyperion survived two universes being destroyed around him (he was dead center of it all) and he was getting rocked by the Hulk. So if we want to go by power scaling he's pretty solid right there. Lol.

Serious Mode:

Clearly you don't care about even being remotely honest and are going to continue debating based off the magic of dimension busting. Regardless, Goku at SSJ4 has showings that prove he is less durable than Thor. Not by a small margin, but a planetary one. Punches that can't knock him through buildings, temperatures that quite frankly wouldn't even be acknowledge by Thor burned him and energy blasts that act more like physical attacks aren't going to make him budge.

Thor on the over hand has a hammer Goku will probably find cleaving through him on contact, that can absorb his attacks and fire them back at him with 10 times the force (you know, the achilles heel of the cast that loves to blast off with people.)

Ta-da! Done.

#61 Edited by SonDeathEater (537 posts) - - Show Bio

King Kai's planet is a lot more durable bc in order for it to have ten times gravity like it used to when it was a large planet,it has to be really dense.That would make king Kai's planet 10x density and since it's a small planet it makes it harder to shatter despite the goku did it.

#62 Posted by SonDeathEater (537 posts) - - Show Bio

Isaac I have to disagree with the fact that you say goku does not

Fight at FTL speeds bc the light off the camera could not catch an image of goku or cell.You also ignored the fact that goku punched super 17 across the world.We also don't know if Thor's hammer builds

up speed either.You also claim that the author is wrong even though he stated it hitself in handbook.it is considered bias

If you claim that the author.Also, Vegeta strongest attack that did nothing to recoome that then gets knocked out by goku. Serious mode:You disregard alot of DBZ than you disprove though and argue doing assumptions too.You also don't have any evidence that suggests that Thor could outspeed goku despite saying Thor's hammer travels faster than instant transmission.It is instant.Plus you

Have no evidence on how Thor or Hulk could touch goku or cell. If Thor were to throw his hammer goku could grab Thor before he could throw it.

#64 Edited by valfranx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

Force:

Speed:

bills travel in space:

Bills and Goku can make time be stopped?

so you see the water droplets in the air stoped.

#65 Edited by MisterGuyMan (2042 posts) - - Show Bio

The handbook does not simply state that Cell can blow up a solar system. The guide merely confirms that Cells Kamehameha held enough power to destroy one. The confirmation is now canon. The guide isn't only saying that Cell hypothetically can wield that much energy. It's pointing out the exact moment in the manga that he did so.

#66 Posted by theONEtaichou (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

I suppose that boat mast must have been falling faster than the speed of light, and with more force than a supernova or the blasts of various Abstracts. Because we know Marvel isn't inconsistent like the DBU or anything.

this

it made my day....

#67 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@neongamewave said:

Now the reason why I think Team 1 wins pretty easily is because of the simple fact of speed in regards to the gap that separates the differences.

  • Now Thor`s hammer Mjonir might move at FTL speeds but Goku and Cell fight as well as react at FTL speeds when in combat on top of all that they have Instant Transmission which is probably three times or more the speed of light. They could react and respond to Thor before he even throws Mjonir, Hulk would be down and out in the beginning also it would be two on one and I don`t think Mjonir would hit the both of them that easily.
  • This is Kid Goku dodging lasers, bullets, and being trained to move faster than lightning as he also learns to train his mind to react at those rates within the flowing courses of movement. Goku even dodges Tien`s Solar Flare and grabs his glasses before he could even notice, lightning as we all know travels at 0.5 the speed of light which would mean Goku as a kid would have half the speed of light in terms of combat speed which is very impressive considering he was only a kid at the time and was still in training.
  • Master Roshi and Krillin are slower than Goku but they were fighting and moving in 1/10 of a second as they were reacting and thinking at centisecond. But Goku surpasses them in overall speed as a kid and so on so forth.
  • Now Piccolo pretty much blew up the moon in about two seconds it takes light 1.23 seconds to travel to the earth from the moon and the time it takes the light to refract back directly to Piccolo is something worth noting which would ultimately mean that his blast is FTL.
  • Now Power Levels do help within the establishing of Dragon Ball and many misunderstand the actual concept. They are there to help distinguish characters in terms of power and it is a very systematical method in which these things can be further explained. Power Levels are connected with ki as well.
  • Raditz dodges Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which was basically going at light speed and he had a PL of 1200 or 1200+
  • This beam is also called the Beam of Light or implied as the Light of Death and Raditz is able to dodge it with not much trouble or avoid with not much trouble.
  • Goku is able to react to Nappa`s energy beam with a Kamehameha attack during the courses of the fight. Vegeta`s even surprised that he is able to react to the attack at that distance and this is Goku in base form.
  • Goku is able to move so fast that Recoome, Burter and Jeice cannot keep up with him as he reappears right behind them instantly and the three of them had a PL of 40,000+. This is evidently shown within the following video of a scene depicted from the anime itself.
  • Vegeta could not even see Frieza`s death beams and it further proves the idea of how the speed of the beams that are fired within DBZ increase but another interesting fact is that Vegeta receives an increase in power and is later able to avoid the beams this confirms that the higher power level you are the faster you become.
  • Goku in base form is able to block Frieza`s FTL beams in base form.
  • Goku gets trapped and imprisoned in the Imprisonment Light Ball by Frieza but he is able to break out of it and he dodged in an instant, he was moving at FTL speeds also Piccolo compares Goku`s speed to that of a god as he further explains it.Goku also has Instant Transmission in which he was able to go from earth to the afterlife and in doing that cross or pass the 1 million KM Snake Way in an instant. It was used again to traverse to a place that is even beyond heaven passed the 1 million KM, every single one of the Kai planets and the afterlife itself in which it progresses to Namek which is in another Galaxy. Goku has used Instant Transmission in combat before as well and he is very clever when using it. Now also as shown in one of the scans Goku moves so fast that Kami is unable to see him and this is base form Goku with Instant Transmission adding to that incredible speed it would make Goku and Cell too much for Thor.
  • It took the Spaceship a couple of seconds to reach Jupiter and it takes light 32-54 minutes to reach Jupiter from Earth.
  • Therefore the Spaceship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster then Light Speed Travel
  • And since it took the ship over 10 days to get to Namek, and Goku traveled to Namek in an instant, from King Kai's planet.
  • Using the Instant Transmission to travel across the galaxy, and between dimensions to Namek.
  • His Instant Transmission
  • speed is thousands of times faster then light,
  • and can be used to cross dimensions between living and dead. This would be a huge factor and requires little to no Ki.
  • Goku has trained to use it without putting a finger to his head.

You realize Instant Tranmission has no confirmed speed and is simply teleportation that requires basic thought to begin with right? Namely why Goku couldn't save Gohan, Goten, Trunks from Kid Buu's attack that destroyed Earth (despite that planet busting + durability and Kid Buu having no reason to hold back I guess). But I guess if it makes them move at 3X the speed of light Thor is doomed. Oh wait.

Crosses to the furthest part of the galaxy and back in just over 60 seconds (namely why Thor turns back into Blake, but Mjolnir / Stick was close enough for Thor to grab and use). Guess he can throw it faster than the Instant Transmission, certainly much faster than thousands of times the speed of light to boot. =( <--- You see that sad face, it is completely legitimate.

Just to note:

  • Lightning has a great deal of variance in terms of how fast it is.
  • Can't confirm the Moon-Buster speed.
  • Exaggerations of Goku and Cell's speed since the vast majority of time the DBZ cast is standing still punching one another or blasting one another.

@neongamewave said:

  • Goku also can use telekinesis and so can Cell.
  • Goku also has kiai which is the energy that surrounds DBZ characters and he can use it offensively.

Not remotely worth a mention, blasting dirt apart or crushing Krillin is not sufficient to say they can do much to a character sporting bones harder than the Silver Surfer's skin and has been in the sun without so much as an indication that the extreme gravity / pressure has had any effect on him.

Ignore the hammer toss. Regardless, the Surfer's skin holds up to quite a degree of things, black holes, stars, super-nova. The level of telekinesis in the DBU is a negligible mention. The fact Thor can hit that hard with his head also means he could poke holes in them simply smashing his face into them.

@neongamewave said:

Now Goku`s punches should be able to hurt Thor as well.

  • In SSJ1 form he is able to hurt Frieza who has planetary+ durability and his striking feats are very impressive.
  • Able to destroy mountains and islands in base form.
  • Another new and interesting striking feat is when he punched a hole through King Kai`s planet which has 10x the gravity of Earth and is far more durable, also he didn`t directly punch through the planet with his fist but more so it occurred due to the striking force which resulted from his fist which makes it more impressive. This is Goku in SSJ3 form.
  • 2:27 - 2:40
  • In his kid form he was able to send Super 17 flying across the earth all the way to the arctic and this is not even SSJ4 Goku but Base. Now in SSJ4 form as his ki level increases along with his power, his striking force would be a lot greater when in that form.
  • Now another important point is the Super Dragon Fist technique which Goku used on Hirudegarn, Super 17 and Omega Shenron.
  • Now this attack is a deadly and very powerful attack it is in regards to raw power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku`s Kamehameha and base Goku`s Kamehameha which destroyed as well as broke through an entire dimension. The attack ends in a very explosive manner and leaves the victim brutally destroyed, I don`t think Thor would be able to take this attack directly.Now Goku`s punches will be able to hurt Thor and the problem is that Thor wouldn`t be able to react to his crazy speed. Thor also has to deal with Cell at the same time, and Cell also uses Instant Transmission, I don`t think Thor would be able to throw Mjonir fast enough in order to react to Goku and Cell`s movements even if he throws it at Goku who`s not to say that Cell would just IT behind him and deliver a Solar Kamehameha which is a solar system busting attack. Now although I want to post a lot more, I decided to keep this post simple for now and not too long but I will add more points maybe at a later time, I wanted to showcase Goku`s combat speed and striking power although there is a lot more to discuss.
  • Now in terms of raw destructive power, that is where DBZ characters excel and Goku as well as Cell`s attacks will definitely be able to hurt Thor.
  • Goku in his base form is able to break through and destroy an entire dimension evidence as shown is the dimension cracking as the explosion leads Goku and Sugoro to the other side as they enter into another dimension or realm, the attack itself is still impressive even if some were to argue that it only broke through the dimension this is base form Goku not even entering into SSJ1, SSJ2 or SSJ3 which multiplies a Saiyan`s power by a great degree especially their destructive power that results from ki size and ki control. In SSJ4 form he would be far more powerful in every aspect and I doubt Thor would be able to take a Kamehameha from a SSJ4 Goku and as explained within the Daizenshuus, Goku in SSJ1 form not powered up had 3000 kili as measured by Babidi in which he could destroy 10-15 planets, it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets and that`s Goku in SSJ1 form, this means that his destructive output is above planetary level by far.

He was able to hurt Frieza before going SSJ. Regardless this muttering about planet+durability doesn't exist. Frieza didn't tank a planet buster, he tanked a planet exploding on him and it blew half his head off in the process - and he was dying as a result. That isn't tanking anything. The one chance Frieza had to tank a planet buster from Vegeta, he choose tor deflect it rather than tank it.

Why does destroying mountains matter? We've got showings in this thread that clearly indicate a tremendous amount more is required to even phase Thor.

Except King Kai's planet isn't more durable than the Earth. It's made of rock and dirt - punching Goku through it made that evidence - arguing how it's ten times more durable than the Earth is simply a lie. Thor tanks attacks that consist of him being bull-rushed from the Earth's Moon to Mars.

Read from right to left

And quite literally hits hard enough to have people appear in orbit:

Nul / Hulk has no idea what just happened and this was a Thor that was sporting a wound that kills him later on.

Since you don't care to be truthful and want to argue using ridiculous arguments, have fun with it:

Thor is lucky he isn't a dimension I guess. Either way Thor tanks attacks that target his "mind, body and spirit", attacks eating at his very soul, then was hit by an attack that blasting him through worlds, time, heavens and hells - which he raises his hammer to absorb and kill Glory (for a bit).

So for abstract tanking feats, like survive Goku's not-so-dimension-busting-attack-stop-lying-x-SSJ4 I think Thor's good. You know since his body physically transcends dimensions (that must mean he has dimension durability+).

I don't know man, Thor's tanken shots from Galactus, who is a universe buster. Sure we don't know how powerful those attacks where, but since Galactus can control his KI... I mean cosmic blasts to precisely deliver damage - it could be even more.

But lets not forget Hyperion, he survived two universes going boom around him:

And the Hulk can hurt him, and who can hurt the Hulk? Thor. That's who.

Clearly this proves Thor has universe - busting durability + as he was getting back up. Albeit the funny thing is a character like Hyperion survived two universes being destroyed around him (he was dead center of it all) and he was getting rocked by the Hulk. So if we want to go by power scaling he's pretty solid right there. Lol.

Serious Mode:

Clearly you don't care about even being remotely honest and are going to continue debating based off the magic of dimension busting. Regardless, Goku at SSJ4 has showings that prove he is less durable than Thor. Not by a small margin, but a planetary one. Punches that can't knock him through buildings, temperatures that quite frankly wouldn't even be acknowledge by Thor burned him and energy blasts that act more like physical attacks aren't going to make him budge.

Thor on the over hand has a hammer Goku will probably find cleaving through him on contact, that can absorb his attacks and fire them back at him with 10 times the force (you know, the achilles heel of the cast that loves to blast off with people.)

Ta-da! Done.

Many points here are pretty off and indescribably opinionated above anything else with the lack of knowledge taking away from the credibility of sustaining the message in fact and fuel for genuine evidence which is why I decided to address it.Instant Transmission is pretty much instant, a form of teleportation if you will and works effectively across dimensions and can be pinpointed to traverse the very universe, its FTL and Goku has used it effectively in combat many times. Goku obviously needed to focus on a point and he was focused on Kid Buu he later escaped the explosion or destructive force of Buu`s blast and he has even learned to use IT without need of concentration or focusing his figures on his forehead.

What doesn`t make sense and lacks clarity in this argument of yours is the mere idea that Thor would even get the chance to swing or throw Mjonir for it to go light speed, Goku or Cell can Instant Transmission themselves right beside or behind Thor even before he makes that critical move and Goku has an atmospheric sense he can sense things moving throughout the air and perceive certain actions before they are made.

Like what exactly? Goku became faster than lightning during Dragon Ball and he was only a kid.

It destroyed the moon in seconds and Akira Toriyama even confirmed the moon he created within the fictional world of DBZ is the same as the one in our world. Piccolo even confirms the same attack which is Special Beam Cannon is FTL. Standing around translates and moves itself to that of exaggerations? I think your perspective and logic is flawed, those moments as shown when in the charging up blasts and the duration in which it takes episodes to deliver those blasts are for hypes sake, the manga clearly shows something different and contrary to popular belief they don`t just stand around, this statement by you clearly shows how you lack in knowledge and understanding when it comes to DBZ.

You clearly missed the point and important factor of significance when in regards to these factors. Goku even used it on Frieza who has planetary durability, he was cut in half by his own energy force, tanked a Spirit Bomb which is planetary level and was beaten to near death yet he survives a massive explosion, yet you say his head was blown apart but what you forget is that he tanked Goku`s Kamehameha directly and then the planet exploded, so you lost all credibility. Goku was able to throw him around in SSJ1 form and this takes quite the force to pull off especially against a being such as Frieza who has immense ki energy and tanks all forms of damage without much pain but Goku throws and repels him like a flee, Frieza`s musculuar structure and bones are really hardened it took his own energy to pierce through him.

Like I said you don`t know anything about DBZ and you just furthered my point. He was able to compete with Frieza in base form but in SSJ form he becomes a lot more powerful as he transcends into another form, actually Frieza tanked a planetary+++ attack, he tanked a planet`s destruction and tanked 100% the output or energy it exerted which=planetary explosion also he tanked Goku`s Kamehameha which overpowered Vegeta`s Galick Gun which is a planetary attack so you overlooked something critical, your downgrading Freiza for no reason by saying his head blew apart when he tanked more ouput than that of a planet exploding and he took the force head on, SSJ1>>>Kaioken and Goku had a PL of 150,000,000.

They matter because Goku was in base form when all these things occurred and he also destroyed an entire island also his punched cracked through Frieza`s immense durability and it takes a lot to harm him or even phase him, if Hulk can compete with Thor and hold his own then I don`t see how Goku would have any problems especially while being in SSJ4, you have given no proof as to why he would be able to tank Super Dragon Fist.

How? Dirt? It has ten times the gravity of earth and it is a small planet meaning it compacts all of the molecules in a very small area, a planet doesn`t have to be larger to be more denser, Goku even in kid form during GT was able to punch Super 17 to the other parts of the earth and Goku destroyed Omega Shenron with Super Dragon Fist and Omega Shenron tanked a Kamehameha from a SSJ4 Goku.

Your arrogance is astonishing

None of that proofs anything since Goku and Cell are actually far faster than Hulk. Also Thor has never tanked an attack that can destroy dimensions many times over. In the original sub Goku even clearly states that he can destroy or blow up the dimension and he does, also the dub gets the same message across your just too arrogantly blind and susceptible to your fallacious attitudes to try and understand. You can even see the dimension dissolve and disappear, and it happens right after the shattering.

If you can`t debate reasonably then you might as well just keep the biases to your own boggling mindsets and exit out.

Mockery and sarcasm won`t get you anywhere in regards to the argument at hand it only displays your ignorance, arrogance and denial which makes you more pathetically rude in the knowing of your supposed statements.

You very much failed in all honesty.

Your very biased, rude, and unnecessarily sarcastic to the important facts, I can address this entire response much more but there is no point and I`m quite busy at the moment also you like it to be more limited so I had to limit this post for the sake of acknowledging and respecting your wishes. But all you did was downgrade the principles of DBZ, assumed things that are not true and you haven`t proven a thing in regards to why Thor would win against Cell or Goku who both move FTL in combat and have IT who`s not to say that they won`t just teleport behind Thor before he can even swing or throw Mjonir, Thor has a long list and has a history in which he is shown to be legitimately slow to the cause. Everything else doesn`t need addressing because it has already been addressed.

Good day.

#68 Posted by dondave (36554 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: DBZ vs Comic threads are banned; why did you bump this?

Online
#69 Edited by dondave (36554 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#70 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24115 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Why would you bump this?DBZ vs threads are banned if you had something to say to Isaac you should not have waited 22 days for it.

Online
#71 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people still going on with this unproven, unfounded, illogical, insensible assumption that DBZ characters' energy projection is somehow vastly exponentially superior to their durability, combat speed and striking power?

If you're making that claim, please prove it with facts and scans. Not unfounded, insensible claims.

Please.

You're embarrassing yourselves.

Thor would be knocked out by one punch from either of these guys unless he's in Warrior's Madness. Hulk might take a few punches before he falls to the ground and reverts to Banner but he won't even be able to see them coming.

#72 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24115 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

Are people still going on with this unproven, unfounded, illogical, insensible assumption that DBZ characters' energy projection is somehow superior to their durability, combat speed and striking power?

If you're making that claim, please prove it with facts and scans. Not unfounded, insensible claims.

Please.

You're embarrassing yourselves.

Thor would be knocked out by one punch from either of these guys unless he's in Warrior's Madness. Hulk might take a few punches before he falls to the ground and reverts to Banner but he won't even be able to see them coming.

Right...so the God that has taken shots from Odin,Galactus,Silver Surfer and other powerful beings is getting one shotted by these two?.

Online
#73 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@neongamewave: DBZ vs Comic threads are banned; why did you bump this?

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@neongamewave: Why would you bump this?DBZ vs threads are banned if you had something to say to Isaac you should not have waited 22 days for it.

I agree, they are banned but I was thinking of responding to him earlier, however I never got the real time to and decided not to at that specific moment during the earlier times of the debate. I felt like I had to address a lot of the inaccuracies within his statements so I decided to address them because they call for my attention and the time available helped forward my decision also I wanted this post to be informational within the specifics but I sincerely apologize out of respect and acknowledgement.

#74 Edited by Jgames (1682 posts) - - Show Bio

Why ssj 4, is officially non cannon. And this is a unfair match, is Thor vs Cell and Goku. Unless is a other version of Hulk, he useless. Unless thor have odin force, he losed.

Granted Thor had more fighting experience than goku, making him even with goku in fighting, cell fighting ability and experience is better since he have all combined force of the Z fighter. But again, ssj4 is non cannon, and ssj god maybe a one time thing, but if it isn't he solo thor, especially since he probaly worthy of the hammer. But if he can't turn to ssj god, and only ssj 3, Thor might win against both goku and cell even if goku is worthy of the hammer.

Wait can you imagine goku with mjolnir

XD, but for real thor can't handle Cell and goku together, especially in ssj, regardless, how they made him look weak. God dammit, Baby needed to do two galick gun to destroy Earth WTF. Love it but again non cannon and thor lose.

#75 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

thor has slower combat speed than wolverine as thor has admitted himself, so he gets absolutely wrecked. Then hulk fights these two, never lands a hit and idk if he can survive the insane power of goku and SPC

#76 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Right...so the God that has taken shots from Odin,Galactus,Silver Surfer and other powerful beings is getting one shotted by these two?.

Well on second thought, Cell might not be able to. A superspeed roundhouse kick from him probably would, though.

But SSJ4 Goku? The guy who held his own against a universe buster, as well as being unaffected by uber reality/matter manipulation? No contest.

#77 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

like i already said, thor is slower in combat speed than wolverine, so he isn't going to do a dang thing vs team 1. he's a thousand times slower than krillin !

#78 Edited by HereComesTheBoom_Headshot (321 posts) - - Show Bio

*sighs*

Thor would last longer than Hulk, but neither Thor nor Hulk are surviving against Goku AND Cell. Too much power and versatility.

#79 Posted by God_Spawn (37709 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Don't bump again. I don't care if you felt like there were inaccuracies or not.

Moderator