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#1 Posted by DarkAgeKiller (47 posts) - - Show Bio

vs Hulk & Thor

#2 Edited by Picallo3798 (226 posts) - - Show Bio

You're kidding right? Im not a DBZ fan at all, let me make that very clear, but this is not a good match. DBZ wins.

#3 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Either of team 1 can solo, SSJ4 Goku can effortlessly solo.

#4 Posted by rpottage (894 posts) - - Show Bio

Versions?
Rules?

I mean is this WB Hulk and Rune King Thor with the Odinforce morals off bloodlusted with BFR allowed? Because if so then I think RKT and WB Hulk win.

But if it current versions, morals on, no BFR; then then get murderstomped in a spite match.

#5 Posted by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor vs SSJ4 Goku

That's all that matters here. If Supes vs Goku is an argument, and Supes vs Thor is an argument, then so is this.

#6 Edited by nickzambuto (14130 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3 said:

Thor vs SSJ4 Goku

That's all that matters here. If Supes vs Goku is an argument, and Supes vs Thor is an argument, then so is this.

Most people agree Superman might hold an advantage over Freeza, but that's it. Cell should beat him.

Online
#7 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3 said:

Thor vs SSJ4 Goku

That's all that matters here. If Supes vs Goku is an argument, and Supes vs Thor is an argument, then so is this.

Most people agree Superman might hold an advantage over Freeza, but that's it. Cell should beat him.

Majority agree Superman can beat Goku though......

Online
#8 Posted by nickzambuto (14130 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@nessy3 said:

Thor vs SSJ4 Goku

That's all that matters here. If Supes vs Goku is an argument, and Supes vs Thor is an argument, then so is this.

Most people agree Superman might hold an advantage over Freeza, but that's it. Cell should beat him.

Majority agree Superman can beat Goku though......

Not from what I've seen.

Online
#9 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (25556 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I have seen more people on here say Supes beat Goku then not.

Online
#10 Posted by MirrorWave4 (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku solos, in SSJ4 by right can bust the Earth with his pinky, check SSJ3 vs Bills

#11 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@nessy3 said:

Thor vs SSJ4 Goku

That's all that matters here. If Supes vs Goku is an argument, and Supes vs Thor is an argument, then so is this.

Most people agree Superman might hold an advantage over Freeza, but that's it. Cell should beat him.

Majority agree Superman can beat Goku though......

Not from what I've seen.

I've always thought Frieza is about the toughest DBZ opponent Superman would win against. But no, Thor and Hulk shouldn't win this. And I'm a Marvel fan, and I don't particularly care for DBZ.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#12 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ wrecks.

#13 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

The comments in this thread hurts. Thor lets go of his hammer and it cleaves through Goku's chest. He then proceeds to vaporize Cell with repeated hammer strikes.

#14 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ wrecks.

How they can't even hurt their opponent.

#15 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Goku and Cell are far faster in combat speed, it would be two against one due to the fact that Hulk would be taken out in no time. Cell is a solar system buster and Goku in base form destroyed a dimension in SSJ4 form he is far more powerful than his base form and Baby`s punches could not even hurt him when he was in this form even Baby`s planet busting attack did absolutely nothing so how is Team Marvel going to harm Team DBZ? You also have to factor in Cell`s regeneration and physical attacks won`t do much, Goku also has IT which he could use during combat he would be able to dodge Mjonir and he has dodged FTL attacks before.

#16 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Goku and Cell are far faster in combat speed, it would be two against one due to the fact that Hulk would be taken out in no time.

Your point? Thor is still too durable for them to hurt and he can hurl his hammer at twice the speed of light at its slowest confirmed speed. This fight quite literally ends for the most part with a single toss, the only character that survives it is Cell - but given how physical striking from from an SSJ2 Gohan had him nearly peel over and die from pain alone - Thor will just incinerate him with magic lightning bolts.

Cell is a solar system buster and Goku in base form destroyed a dimension in SSJ4 form he is far more powerful than his base form

No, Cell claimed he could totally destroy a solar system. However all that was required to vaporize him was claimed planet busting output - namely why Vegeta cleaved through perfect cell with his final flash like butter. Beta Ray Bill, Thor's inferior clone based off current showings, took a planet buster point blank and was hardly phased by it. That was after he was smashed half-way through a planet.

How much power does it take to destory (and by destroy, I mean poke a hole in the dimension, since there was absolutely no claims that the dimension was actually destroyed)?

Baby`s punches could not even hurt him when he was in this form even Baby`s planet busting attack did absolutely nothing so how is Team Marvel going to harm Team DBZ?

Why would I care if Baby's punches didn't hurt Goku when Thor is sporting tremendously better durability feats than SSJ4 Goku. You know, the one that was getting cut by glass and punches that weren't even powerful enough to knock him through a building were flooring him. What planet busting attack? Did it actually bust a planet, like in Beta Ray Bill's case or was it one of the normal big explosions or attacks that were deflected? You know a claimed planet buster that never gets anywhere close to that?

Easily. Thor can let go of his hammer and have it cleave through Goku's chest as he did with Angrir during Fear Itself. Thor's striking power with Mjolnir in hand could likely vaporize Cell, I'm not even exaggerating it - leaving nothing. Or he could simply blast him with magic lightning bolts till Cell's Cells are gone.

You also have to factor in Cell`s regeneration and physical attacks won`t do much, Goku also has IT which he could use during combat he would be able to dodge Mjonir and he has dodged FTL attacks before.

While Cell does sport a neat healing factor, his pain tolerance is awful and Thor's more than capable of destroying him. The IT didn't help Goku dodge a dozen other attacks launched at him throughout GT and quite honestly, unless you have something to prove he could stop Thor's hammer toss, which he can quite literally have it zig zag till it hits Goku at FLT speeds - you're going to have to prove he can dodge something moving twice the speed of light.

Scans to follow when I get the chance to clean up my folder.

#17 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: My point is that they would be too fast for Thor and he wouldn`t be able to react in time, they both fight at FTL speeds also both have IT which is faster than light so they would be able to avoid Mjonir. What do you mean by a single toss? Cell would easily be able to regenerate anyway, he was able to regenerate from Vegeta`s planet busting+ attack.

It was further confirmed in a handbook and guidebook by the author and creator himself that already adds on the validity to the fact of him being able to Solar System bust. It cleaved through like half of Cell and then regenerated as he proceeded to laugh what exactly would Mjonir do except add blunt force? Both Goku and Cell can produce attacks that are far above planet busting attacks also these attacks can be produced casually. In fact, Goku has busted a dimension in his kid form during GT, I doubt Thor would be able to endure through at least two strikes from a SSJ4 Goku. He even was unscathed after Baby launched his Revenge Death Ball which is above planetary level and is similar to Goku`s Spirit Bomb also this attack was also in tuned with Vegeta`s power. What are you asking exactly? Goku`s attack instantly shattered the entire dimension and this was him in base form. Cell is a solar system buster and it has been further confirmed by Akira Toriyama within the Daizenshuu specifically Daizenshuu 7 which he worked on.

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan.

— Akira Toriyama,

Daizenshuu 7

, 1996

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Page 147

Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him.

A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!!

Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others!

At least one “Film Anime Comics” Guide that I have come across that was written for the Manga and Anime, and BEFORE Akira Toriyama had created Super Saiyan 3, discusses the different forms of Super Saiyans as GRADES and what each "GRADE" was capale of.

That Guide excerpted below states that Super Saiyan 2's or "Super Saiyan Grade 5's"... "power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

[Above is the Cantonese version released in Hong Kong. It too says "超級賽亞人第五階段" (Super Saiyan Grade Five) and the Japanese Version is discussed below]

Background on the Guide:

This information comes from a “Film Anime Comics” published on May 31st, 1993. At this point in time the manga was just beginning the Buu arc, while the anime had only just recently passed the point where Gohan transforms into (what would later be known as) Super Saiyan 2. Specifically, Gohan transforms in DBZ episode 184, broadcast May 5th 1993, while the last episode shown in May was episode 187, where Cell reverts to his second form. As a result, this feature is therefore illustrated with anime screan-shots.

Daizenshuu 2 uses the "Grade" terminology to refer to the muscular forms. This comes in the book's "Growing Up" section, which goes over the different ages, appearances, and forms of the characters throughout the series.

The Japanese “Film Anime Comics” Guide

Translation:

Red words: "Everything's super!! Declare this invincible Saiya-Power!!"

Black words: "Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form). An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

Translation:

[lineup of Broli's forms]

"--Normal

--Super Saiyan

--Super Saiyan (Final Form)

[Red and Black Text on Right]

A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!!

Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others!"

1:54 - 3:34

You should care. When Goku was in SSJ3 form he was getting torn apart by a powerful character named Baby but once he ascended into his SSJ4 form he wasn`t bothered by the punches that much and throughout the series it shows that Goku`s body is adaptable. Baby`s uncharged Galick Gun was able to do damage to the surface of the earth and even Old Kai was in fear because he knew a charged attack would completely destroy the planet as he had said, it has been shown in the DB, DBZ and GT series that planet busting attacks can be concentrated.Goku was even able to endure through Syn Shenron`s concentrated city + leveling blasts and explosions even after being knocked through a couple of buildings. Syn Shenron has destroyed cosmos before as well and Goku was able to survive even when he became Omega Shenron. Syn Shenron was able to endure through Goku`s kamehameha attack with no scratch whatsoever but Goku is able to damage and destroy Omega Shenron with a Super Dragon Fist instantly although it was temporarily but the point is it was a super charged attack that instantly annihilated Omega Shenron and he used this attack on Hirudegarn as he had him destroyed instantly, this attack can probably kill or at least heavily wound Thor especially when Goku is supercharging it with his ki within the force of his fist. Goku was able to endure through Nuova`s attacks which became hotter than the sun and Omega Shenron is definitely a universal threat who Goku was able to survive against, Goku in SSJ4 form has pretty good durability.

Goku can withstand the surface temperature of the sun without it melting his skin or even actually burning him. Surface Temperature of the sun is approximately 5778 K (9940.73°F).

Proof: Goku fighting Nova Shenron:http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-gt-episode-54/ )

  • (6:09 Goku's hands cannot take the heat but keep watching and see how his body adapts)

  • (Nova states at 6:36 he can make his temperature hotter than the sun) .

If you watch the whole episode you can see that at first Goku's hands cannot even touch Nova in his less intensive temperature state without being burnt or catching on fire. But then Goku builds up the resistance as he explained about his body to Eis Shenron [above]. After building up the resistance Goku is able to even be held for long periods by the higher temperature sun surface upgraded version of Nova in his golden body state.

Translated: http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php#part6

キリ

Kili

An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Gokuu's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used.[Par.] Gokuu's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets.

Goku with a PL of 3,000 through the measurements of kili can blow up 10-15 planets greater than the size of earth or 10-15 planets the size of earth at once. This measurement was made or scaled when Goku was in SSJ1 form and SSJ4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ1. It was also confirmed in Daizenshuu 7 which was written by Akira Toriyama and his staff also it was officially published by Shueisha. So how is Thor going to be able to take a blast from a SSJ4 Goku? Thor might have planetary durability but I doubt he has the necessary durability to survive a Kamehameha x10 or supernova leveling explosions and this idea was further confirmed in Dragon Ball Online which was written by Akira Toriyama also this game is canon as well as confirmed by Akira, it`s an official sequel to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Within the courses of the story, Vegeta and Goku have a battle in space in which explosions were created as the result of their fight, these explosions rivaled that of supernovas and these explosions were detected by scientists as well.

Sources for Dragon Ball Online

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://cafe.daum.net/FoReVerDB/70rX/5635

http://dbmmo.com/about

http://wiki.dbmmo.com/index.php?title=Storyline

Age 801 officially in text and translated, words of Akira Toriyama!

Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from Earth. Years later explosions on par with supernovas were detected which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta.

And Goku is going to allow that? Goku has IT along with Cell who uses IT too also physical force won`t completely get rid of Cell he`ll just regenerate and Thor is very slow when it comes to combat speed so they have the greater combat speed which means they would be able to outmaneuver and react to Thor who swings Mjonir with great strength but not enough speed and reaction. Goku was able to dodge Meta Cooler`s supernova attack at close range and this attack was encompassing the entire area where Goku was, so how is Mjonir going to be able to keep up with Goku and Cell exactly? Mjonir might move at FTL speeds but Thor doesn`t swing Mjonir at those same speeds and Goku as well as Cell are way faster when it comes to combat speed, reaction time and also they are faster when it comes to sensing things, Goku is really good at exploiting blind spots as well, Thor throwing Mjonir could make him temporarily vulnerable.

1:28 - 2:30

Like what times exactly? Goku has used it within DBZ and the movies in a very clever way so if your not going to prove how Thor`s hammer would even be able to reach Goku while he is using IT then there is no point to this debate, you saying that Team DBZ wouldn`t be able to harm Team Marvel is just silly and it shows the clear bias. Hulk wouldn`t be able to survive a planetary explosion, Cell will kill him instantly and also I doubt Thor would be able to take on two characters who use IT which allows Goku to travel across dimensions and the entire universe instantly also it is faster than the speed of light. Cell was able to regenerate even after his own self destruct mechanism occurred. Cell could even use this against Thor and Goku could easily use IT to avoid it, they could do this as a strategy also the output of Cell`s explosion is above planetary level we do not know the clear output of Cell`s explosion only that it destroyed one planet that was around if there were multiple planets around they would be destroyed too this is a misconception in regards to Goku`s durability as they say that he couldn`t even survive Cell`s explosion but the explosion itself is above planetary level. Both Cell and Goku fight at FTL speeds as well.

But I know that your next response is going to be that Cell and Goku wouldn`t be able to survive a hit from Mjonir, also that Cell cannot Solar System bust and etc. This comment of yours already says something, your basically implying that they wouldn`t even be able to hurt Thor who has been taken down by weaker attacks before that are not necessarily planetary level and Hulk is one of the opponents he definitely will be taken out, Thor ain`t going to be able to endure through dimensional and solar system busting attacks at all especially when they would be fired at one given point in time but I know what your next response going to be, its predictable your just going to dismiss my post as being DBZ fan logic and you will even ignore the author`s official confirmations then you will break it down using assumptions such as Thor would just be able to erase Cell with lightning bolts even when Cell endured through an attack that is planetary+ level and you forget the fact that Cell is a fighting genius and he is a super computer he would be able to predict as well as analyze Thor`s attacks, the comment below makes me want to not debate with someone who clearly doesn`t know a lot about DBZ and how it works or what it was meant to be.

@isaac_clarke said:

DBZ wrecks.

How they can't even hurt their opponent.

Also your questions have been answered before many times, the following links should give you an idea. Its not hard to understand DBZ, people like you just make it complicated to understand, I know it may not be perfect and sometimes unquantifiable but at least there are things to look forward to in regards to finding out the information and there is enough feats as well as sources of evidence to shed light on the many questions that need answering or long for answers, the creator and author of DB left us handbooks and guidebooks yet many still are ignorant to accept the obvious ideas and truths, I know what your next response is going to be which is why I don`t need to respond to it, many within this thread know that this is a one sided and unfair fight for Marvel. These links will help you understand the concepts of Dragon Ball and in some shape or form there is a discussion in regards to your questions.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/gotenks-vs-gladiator-754227/?page=2 (Read pages 2-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/krillin-vs-iron-man-755603/?page=1 (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/thor-vs-goku-745612/?page=2 (Read pages 2-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/frieza-vs-ms-marvel-752556/ (Read pages 2-3)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/krillin-vs-roshi-tao-king-piccolo-goku-piccolo-jr--752987/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/goku-vs-superman-has-changed-753446/ (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/celldbz-vs-ultron-753512/ (Read pages 1-3)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/debunk-a-feat-dbz-mangaanime-730592/ (Read pages 1-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/supergirl-vs-goku-755917/?page=3 (Read pages 3-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/magneto-vs-cell-747290/?page=4 (Read pages 3-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ssj4-goku-vs-darkseid-757246/ (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/4055-46445/forums/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters-679193/

Cell is a Solar System Buster Sources and Proof

http://www.screwattack.com/news/cell-solar-system-buster-0

http://www.comicvine.com/cell/4005-40806/forums/cell-and-the-solar-system-755238/

#18 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

You really don't make me want to debate with you because of the rampant amount of spamming you do with your posts making them completely unnecessarily long in place of actually having evidence.

#19 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Spamming? Length of my posts? Lacking of evidence? Now your resorting to accusations? My posts have plenty of evidence you just dismiss and address them with your opinionated biases.

#20 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: My point is that they would be too fast for Thor and he wouldn`t be able to react in time, they both fight at FTL speeds also both have IT which is faster than light so they would be able to avoid Mjonir. What do you mean by a single toss? Cell would easily be able to regenerate anyway, he was able to regenerate from Vegeta`s planet busting+ attack.

What stops Thor from reacting again? A slew of punches that lack the striking power to hurt him? That's me running under the assumption that he can't simply bat them away with a swing of his arm like he's done just about to every other speeder that hes run into (only exception was an Avenger comic from decades ago). The Instant Transmission didn't help Cell against Gohan and it didn't help Goku dodge quite frankly anything worth mentioning in a fight that wasn't against Cooler in a non-canon film. Anyhow how about you post Goku or Cell using the Instant Transmission to dodge an attack that was coming at them twice as fast as the speed of light, since that is one of the slower speeds Mjolnir has been confirmed to be tossed at.

Cell's ability to regenerate is really only good as a method of keeping him from dying. It in actuality doesn't stop him from feeling ungodly amounts of pain, which a single toss from Mjolnir will cause:

After it cleaves through Goku's chest it can go onto cleaving through Cells. Thor can then leap right on-top and proceed smashing till there is nothing left of Cell. And yes Thor has quite literally vaporized people hitting them with his hammer, so has his weaker clone Beta Ray Bill. There was only one claim made about Vegeta's attack - that it would destroy the planet. The same with Goku's Kamameha that had the rest of the Z-Fighters flipping out as he charged it from the air to blast directly into Cell. Calling it planet busting+ is nonsense.

It was further confirmed in a handbook and guidebook by the author and creator himself that already adds on the validity to the fact of him being able to Solar System bust. It cleaved through like half of Cell and then regenerated as he proceeded to laugh what exactly would Mjonir do except add blunt force? Both Goku and Cell can produce attacks that are far above planet busting attacks also these attacks can be produced casually. In fact, Goku has busted a dimension in his kid form during GT, I doubt Thor would be able to endure through at least two strikes from a SSJ4 Goku. He even was unscathed after Baby launched his Revenge Death Ball which is above planetary level and is similar to Goku`s Spirit Bomb also this attack was also in tuned with Vegeta`s power. What are you asking exactly? Goku`s attack instantly shattered the entire dimension and this was him in base form. Cell is a solar system buster and it has been further confirmed by Akira Toriyama within the Daizenshuu specifically Daizenshuu 7 which he worked on.

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan.

— Akira Toriyama,

Daizenshuu 7, 1996 http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Page 147 Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him. A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!! Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others! At least one “Film Anime Comics” Guide that I have come across that was written for the Manga and Anime, and BEFORE Akira Toriyama had created Super Saiyan 3, discusses the different forms of Super Saiyans as GRADES and what each "GRADE" was capale of.

Can you show me Cell busting a Solar System? Or in this case releasing a blast of energy that will "blow" the planets away? Or any of the Z-Fighters doing anything close to that kind of feat? The guy that was able to fight him fairly evenly, despite being weaker, was blown to bits by his was killed by Cell's "planet busting" self-destruct - you know that one that vaporized King Kai's planet (which according to you is more durable than the planet) with a few cells remaining. You're argument for the most part seems to be based entirely on power-scaling. I could just as easily pull this out of my hat:

Beta Ray Bill is (or was) Thor's supposed equal, enchanted with Stormbreaker - a hammer that was not only Mjolnir's equal in every way, but would give him the power to be Thor's equal in every way. So if we're going the power scaling route:

Beta Ray Bill: Final What?

Beta Ray Bill: Planet Busting? Hilarious - I planet bust using my opponent!

Beta Ray Bill: Planet Busters? Ha, only if you knock me half way through the planet!

How did he fair against the Silver Surfer?

Wait didn't the Silver Surfer fight Thor a few months back? How did that pan out?

Round 1:

Round 2: (In Space!)

Round 3: Mars

I guess since Thor performed staggeringly better against Norrin - to the point he was denting his skull with a headbutt or tanking a blitz from the moon's orbit to Mar's without even so much as a moment's hesitation before brawling with the Surfer, tanking point blank blasts and what have you - he would certainly be capable of everything Bill had just did now. See - this is kinda like your argument, except I could actually post evidence that isn't completely based off a handbook or what you claim the writer has said.

I wonder how hard Mjolnir hits? Even its hyperbole has more credibility then Cell bragging about his supposed destructive power:

Thor's at least using it to hurt abstracts that are quite literally devouring planets during their fight or individuals that are casual planet busters. Beats the hell out of talking about how someone that can't tank a planet buster is a solar system buster.

Outside the video title, where did it say at all the dimension was destroyed? A bright light after their was a crack in the wall? Wow, gee - what a feat! You're not only claiming he's destroying dimensions, but trying to use this as some indication of power for the character despite how completely inapplicable it is to anything - this feat quite literally means nothing towards telling any of us what this even means in a fight and I've love to see this dimension busting down in a dimension that wasn't sporting a solid wall to blast through. Wonder what Thor would have done in this scenario?

Oh he would have just used his finger. Since his divine form transcends dimensions.

Regardless you're arguing a non-feat. As in there are no indications he did what you claimed he did and even if he did it means squat in an actual fight given how completely abstract the feat is.

1:54 - 3:34

You should care. When Goku was in SSJ3 form he was getting torn apart by a powerful character named Baby but once he ascended into his SSJ4 form he wasn`t bothered by the punches that much and throughout the series it shows that Goku`s body is adaptable. Baby`s uncharged Galick Gun was able to do damage to the surface of the earth and even Old Kai was in fear because he knew a charged attack would completely destroy the planet as he had said, it has been shown in the DB, DBZ and GT series that planet busting attacks can be concentrated. Goku was even able to endure through Syn Shenron`s concentrated city + leveling blasts and explosions even after being knocked through a couple of buildings. Syn Shenron has destroyed cosmos before as well and Goku was able to survive even when he became Omega Shenron. Syn Shenron was able to endure through Goku`s kamehameha attack with no scratch whatsoever but Goku is able to damage and destroy Omega Shenron with a Super Dragon Fist instantly although it was temporarily but the point is it was a super charged attack that instantly annihilated Omega Shenron and he used this attack on Hirudegarn as he had him destroyed instantly, this attack can probably kill or at least heavily wound Thor especially when Goku is supercharging it with his ki within the force of his fist. Goku was able to endure through Nuova`s attacks which became hotter than the sun and Omega Shenron is definitely a universal threat who Goku was able to survive against, Goku in SSJ4 form has pretty good durability.

His attack couldn't even destroy the ground Goku is standing on. His attacks couldn't even destroy the building behind Goku. What am I supposed to be impressed by at all in this fight? It just carried on the theme about how much weaker these characters are in GT. That interpretation of Goku was getting cut by glass and burned by someone who was making their skin really hot or frozen in a block of ice.

If he had "destroyed" the cosmos before, how come it's still there? And Omega's big universe destroying attack involves it being chained planet to planet - making them all go shadowy. Gogeta ends up hijacking the attack and it's explosion turns into sunshine and rainbows released in planetary sized blast. Prove to me in either fashion either attacks could "kill or seriously wound" Thor. You know, in a way that won't cause me to laugh at how godly inconsistent they where in GT.

I'll comment on the rest of your obnoxiously long post after I get back.

#21 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Spamming? Length of my posts? Lacking of evidence? Now your resorting to accusations? My posts have plenty of evidence you just dismiss and address them with your opinionated biases.

You can reduce the size of your posts to the fraction of the size simply by not copy and pasting full sized scans from animevice. Namely why I post my stuff side to side.

#22 Edited by xlab3000 (3322 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor and Hulk

#23 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I have before many times, sometimes the pictures cannot be accessed properly so for anybody to see I had to post them by a much larger size but I understand your point.

#24 Posted by KalKoratto93 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku and Super Perfect Cell take this!

#25 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:
@neongamewave said:

@isaac_clarke: My point is that they would be too fast for Thor and he wouldn`t be able to react in time, they both fight at FTL speeds also both have IT which is faster than light so they would be able to avoid Mjonir. What do you mean by a single toss? Cell would easily be able to regenerate anyway, he was able to regenerate from Vegeta`s planet busting+ attack.

What stops Thor from reacting again? A slew of punches that lack the striking power to hurt him? That's me running under the assumption that he can't simply bat them away with a swing of his arm like he's done just about to every other speeder that hes run into (only exception was an Avenger comic from decades ago). The Instant Transmission didn't help Cell against Gohan and it didn't help Goku dodge quite frankly anything worth mentioning in a fight that wasn't against Cooler in a non-canon film. Anyhow how about you post Goku or Cell using the Instant Transmission to dodge an attack that was coming at them twice as fast as the speed of light, since that is one of the slower speeds Mjolnir has been confirmed to be tossed at.

Cell's ability to regenerate is really only good as a method of keeping him from dying. It in actuality doesn't stop him from feeling ungodly amounts of pain, which a single toss from Mjolnir will cause:

After it cleaves through Goku's chest it can go onto cleaving through Cells. Thor can then leap right on-top and proceed smashing till there is nothing left of Cell. And yes Thor has quite literally vaporized people hitting them with his hammer, so has his weaker clone Beta Ray Bill. There was only one claim made about Vegeta's attack - that it would destroy the planet. The same with Goku's Kamameha that had the rest of the Z-Fighters flipping out as he charged it from the air to blast directly into Cell. Calling it planet busting+ is nonsense.

@neongamewave said:

It was further confirmed in a handbook and guidebook by the author and creator himself that already adds on the validity to the fact of him being able to Solar System bust. It cleaved through like half of Cell and then regenerated as he proceeded to laugh what exactly would Mjonir do except add blunt force? Both Goku and Cell can produce attacks that are far above planet busting attacks also these attacks can be produced casually. In fact, Goku has busted a dimension in his kid form during GT, I doubt Thor would be able to endure through at least two strikes from a SSJ4 Goku. He even was unscathed after Baby launched his Revenge Death Ball which is above planetary level and is similar to Goku`s Spirit Bomb also this attack was also in tuned with Vegeta`s power. What are you asking exactly? Goku`s attack instantly shattered the entire dimension and this was him in base form. Cell is a solar system buster and it has been further confirmed by Akira Toriyama within the Daizenshuu specifically Daizenshuu 7 which he worked on.

This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan.

— Akira Toriyama,

Daizenshuu 7, 1996 http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Page 147 Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him. A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!! Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others! At least one “Film Anime Comics” Guide that I have come across that was written for the Manga and Anime, and BEFORE Akira Toriyama had created Super Saiyan 3, discusses the different forms of Super Saiyans as GRADES and what each "GRADE" was capale of.

Can you show me Cell busting a Solar System? Or in this case releasing a blast of energy that will "blow" the planets away? Or any of the Z-Fighters doing anything close to that kind of feat? The guy that was able to fight him fairly evenly, despite being weaker, was blown to bits by his was killed by Cell's "planet busting" self-destruct - you know that one that vaporized King Kai's planet (which according to you is more durable than the planet) with a few cells remaining. You're argument for the most part seems to be based entirely on power-scaling. I could just as easily pull this out of my hat:

Beta Ray Bill is (or was) Thor's supposed equal, enchanted with Stormbreaker - a hammer that was not only Mjolnir's equal in every way, but would give him the power to be Thor's equal in every way. So if we're going the power scaling route:

Beta Ray Bill: Final What?

Beta Ray Bill: Planet Busting? Hilarious - I planet bust using my opponent!

Beta Ray Bill: Planet Busters? Ha, only if you knock me half way through the planet!

How did he fair against the Silver Surfer?

Wait didn't the Silver Surfer fight Thor a few months back? How did that pan out?

Round 1:

Round 2: (In Space!)

Round 3: Mars

I guess since Thor performed staggeringly better against Norrin - to the point he was denting his skull with a headbutt or tanking a blitz from the moon's orbit to Mar's without even so much as a moment's hesitation before brawling with the Surfer, tanking point blank blasts and what have you - he would certainly be capable of everything Bill had just did now. See - this is kinda like your argument, except I could actually post evidence that isn't completely based off a handbook or what you claim the writer has said.

I wonder how hard Mjolnir hits? Even its hyperbole has more credibility then Cell bragging about his supposed destructive power:

Thor's at least using it to hurt abstracts that are quite literally devouring planets during their fight or individuals that are casual planet busters. Beats the hell out of talking about how someone that can't tank a planet buster is a solar system buster.

Outside the video title, where did it say at all the dimension was destroyed? A bright light after their was a crack in the wall? Wow, gee - what a feat! You're not only claiming he's destroying dimensions, but trying to use this as some indication of power for the character despite how completely inapplicable it is to anything - this feat quite literally means nothing towards telling any of us what this even means in a fight and I've love to see this dimension busting down in a dimension that wasn't sporting a solid wall to blast through. Wonder what Thor would have done in this scenario?

Oh he would have just used his finger. Since his divine form transcends dimensions.

Regardless you're arguing a non-feat. As in there are no indications he did what you claimed he did and even if he did it means squat in an actual fight given how completely abstract the feat is.

@neongamewave said:

1:54 - 3:34

You should care. When Goku was in SSJ3 form he was getting torn apart by a powerful character named Baby but once he ascended into his SSJ4 form he wasn`t bothered by the punches that much and throughout the series it shows that Goku`s body is adaptable. Baby`s uncharged Galick Gun was able to do damage to the surface of the earth and even Old Kai was in fear because he knew a charged attack would completely destroy the planet as he had said, it has been shown in the DB, DBZ and GT series that planet busting attacks can be concentrated. Goku was even able to endure through Syn Shenron`s concentrated city + leveling blasts and explosions even after being knocked through a couple of buildings. Syn Shenron has destroyed cosmos before as well and Goku was able to survive even when he became Omega Shenron. Syn Shenron was able to endure through Goku`s kamehameha attack with no scratch whatsoever but Goku is able to damage and destroy Omega Shenron with a Super Dragon Fist instantly although it was temporarily but the point is it was a super charged attack that instantly annihilated Omega Shenron and he used this attack on Hirudegarn as he had him destroyed instantly, this attack can probably kill or at least heavily wound Thor especially when Goku is supercharging it with his ki within the force of his fist. Goku was able to endure through Nuova`s attacks which became hotter than the sun and Omega Shenron is definitely a universal threat who Goku was able to survive against, Goku in SSJ4 form has pretty good durability.

His attack couldn't even destroy the ground Goku is standing on. His attacks couldn't even destroy the building behind Goku. What am I supposed to be impressed by at all in this fight? It just carried on the theme about how much weaker these characters are in GT. That interpretation of Goku was getting cut by glass and burned by someone who was making their skin really hot or frozen in a block of ice.

If he had "destroyed" the cosmos before, how come it's still there? And Omega's big universe destroying attack involves it being chained planet to planet - making them all go shadowy. Gogeta ends up hijacking the attack and it's explosion turns into sunshine and rainbows released in planetary sized blast. Prove to me in either fashion either attacks could "kill or seriously wound" Thor. You know, in a way that won't cause me to laugh at how godly inconsistent they where in GT.

I'll comment on the rest of your obnoxiously long post after I get back.

This post just proves my point about what I said and made clear earlier.

Its clear that you haven`t watched GT in its entirety and you do not know how concentrated, focused, expanded and radial attacks work within the universe of DB. You just ignored my posts about why Cell could bust a solar system and you dismissed my argument by using the power scaling doesn`t work excuse just like I said you would do. Also your downgrading Cell and Gohan, Gohan just went SSJ2 as his power increases dramatically he was destroying Cell because of difference in power and his attack was able to overpower Cell`s Solar System busting attack just like how Goku`s kamehameha attack overpowered Vegeta`s planet busting attack called the Galick Gun, GT is non canon as well so the movies being included as they are still included within the timeline shouldn`t be an area of concern and it just shows the nature of IT. Also it would be two against one as I have said not one against one and how can Thor just bat away simultaneous attacks all at once especially since both Goku and Cell utilize IT within combat? You know that Gohan like other DBZ characters is FTL when it comes to combat speed and him hurting Cell isn`t necessarily a low feat? Also like I said blunt force won`t cut it, and what people forget is that Gohan`s kamehameha is in particular Father-Son kamehameha which has the energy of Goku as well as his encouraging this attack at first was being overpowered by Cell`s Solar Kamehameha which is a solar system busting attack meaning Father-Son Kamehameha>>>Solar Kamehameha. Also if you watched GT clearly you would know that Goku destroyed that dimension as they even said their aim and goal was to break out of that dimension and they proceeded to going to the next world, you clearly haven`t watched GT and the bias is evident as you even said Goku was just simply poking a hole within the dimension when his blast encompassed the entire dimension as well as destroyed it in its entirety. The episode by the way in which the dimension busting occurred is called The Game After Life and it is episode 30 so watch it for yourself. Both Goku and Sugoro are trapped in an unknown dimension and the the theme of the episode is taking risks as well as partaking in life threatening games and they were transported to the Sacred World of the Kais once they escaped the dimension after Goku blows it up with a kamehameha in his base form, Goku and Sugoro both escape. That was Goku in base form in his SSJ4 form he is far greater in raw destructive power so Thor wouldn`t be able to endure through those types of attacks that are being concentrated also Cell alone would be a problem considering he can fire from a different angle, his Solar Kamehameha is a solar system busting attack so Thor pretty much gets wrecked once the attacks manage to connect and hit him in full contact. Your very biased and like I said before, as I will say it again, I know what your next post is going to be so there is no need for me to respond to a biased argument. You posted good scans, your very intelligent and the feats are pretty good but what you are forgetting is that Norrin Rad is one individual who I believe wasn`t going all out against Thor and Cell as well as Goku are two individuals who Thor has absolutely no knowledge of, Thor is familiar with the Silver Surfer and they`ve fought before, both Thor and Goku fight at FTL speeds and they both use Instant Transmission so how is Thor going to be able to compete with that? You using Beta Ray Bill as a way to prove a point about power scaling in relation to Thor in order to ultimately disapprove the systematically influenced methodical functionalism of DBZ is not really a good argument. Those instances and circumstances in regards to the contexts of the events surrounding Beta Ray Bill and Thor`s fights with the Silver Surfer are different, DBZ is fundamentally and evidently based on a PL system also ki control in which how much power one possesses over the other would mean that the more powerful individual can perform the same the other has and having a handbook which was written by the actual creator instead of a narrator or multiple writers who did not even create the character of Thor says a lot in terms of the difference in regards to your argument and what you had stated, that argument of yours is seriously lacking within the findings and drownings of its own validity.

Isaac_clarke: After it cleaves through Goku's chest it can go onto cleaving through Cells. Thor can then leap right on-top and proceed smashing till there is nothing left of Cell. And yes Thor has quite literally vaporized people hitting them with his hammer, so has his weaker clone Beta Ray Bill. There was only one claim made about Vegeta's attack - that it would destroy the planet. The same with Goku's Kamameha that had the rest of the Z-Fighters flipping out as he charged it from the air to blast directly into Cell. Calling it planet busting+ is nonsense.

This argument alone makes no sense. Goku like I said has IT which is faster than light by a huge degree and is instantaneous, Goku can also sense things as well as exploit blind spots so Mjonir wouldn`t catch him off guard. Cell also has IT and what would blunt force do? It takes attacks greater than his own to truly destroy him, attacks within DBZ usually work on an atomic level in regards to vaporizing things with amazing regeneration, Buu and Cell are great examples so how is Thor simply grabbing Mjonir and smashing Cell going to actually solve the problem? Especially when his teammate Hulk would be long gone and Goku would be there to attack Thor? Nonsense? The same DBZ characters who can sense energy and destroy moons with low Power Levels? Ever heard of concentrated explosions or energy beams? The bias speaks for itself and there is no need for me to respond to that.

Gogeta>>>>>>>>>Omega Shenron and he used his ki to manipulate the negative energy within Omega Shenron`s karma ball to change it into positive energy which furthers my point about how ki control is important you just furthered and supported my point rather than debunk it. Omega Shenron was planning on destroying the earth he even condensed his energy beam which he concentrated and at first once he was harnessing the energy it could of been bigger than the earth this proves my point and it brings us back to DBZ, Kid Buu did the same thing but did it the opposite way he increased the size of his blast due to his smaller planet busting attacks failing, I`ll post the videos here to refresh your memory. As said by Popo, Omega was destroying stars and galaxies wiping out parts of the cosmos and what do you mean still there? Your arguments have been addressed before as you ignored the links I had suggested you read to get a better understanding of DBZ. Omega Shenron focused that attack which is called a karma ball and it took a Universal Spirit Bomb to destroy him, that`s how dangerous Omega was, he wasn`t destroyed by a Spirit Bomb but a Universal Spirit Bomb that gathers energy from across the entire universe, Gogeta`s attack are of that power within range and overall destructive capacity due to the fact that his Big Bang Kamehameha was about to destroy Omega the second time until he split apart due to the time limit of the fusion so that event of Omega having his karma ball altered to become positive energy is not exactly a low showing and you using it as a way to mock what actually happened is sad also SSJ4 Gogeta is a fusion of two extremely powerful Super Saiyan 4 characters who understand the core principles of ki and Omega was wrecking everybody until Goku and Vegeta fused to become SSJ4 Gogeta. So Thor would be wounded by powerful attacks of that nature which would be produced by dimension and solar system busters such as SSJ4 Goku and Cell. Also like I said Goku could always use Super Dragon Fist which Thor wouldn`t see coming and Cell could have him distracted, its two against one not one against one. Also notice how Goku uses Super Dragon Fist to harm or destroy opponents far greater than in him in power, he overpowered Eis Shenron, Super 17 and Omega Shenron with the attack itself, remember Syn Shenron took a full blast from SSJ4 Goku`s kamehameha and was left unscathed yet the Super Dragon Fist was able to destroy him, his regeneration saved him. Goku being cut by glass was more so a plot device and ki is also a factor as ki is the determining factor for everything, Goku`s defense was not up if Goku was in a powered state would he still be cut by the glass? Also Wonder Woman is a good example, she is able to endure through energy based attacks yet bullets and other sharp or pointy objects can pierce her. Also being frozen in ice by Eis Shenron and burned by Nuova Shenron`s flames which are hotter than the surface of the sun are not low showings.

Daizenshuu 7 - Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

6:30 - 9:20

I could respond to your entire post and just address the very structure of your biased as well as opinionated arguments but like I said, I know what your going to respond with next and there is no point, your just going to write me off as a person who uses DBZ logic and power scaling also you insist on the idea that I am spammer when it comes to posting long posts or essays so for those reasons I had to shorten this post.

#26 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

Goku can withstand the surface temperature of the sun without it melting his skin or even actually burning him. Surface Temperature of the sun is approximately 5778 K (9940.73°F).

Proof: Goku fighting Nova Shenron:http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-gt-episode-54/ )

  • (6:09 Goku's hands cannot take the heat but keep watching and see how his body adapts)

  • (Nova states at 6:36 he can make his temperature hotter than the sun) .

If you watch the whole episode you can see that at first Goku's hands cannot even touch Nova in his less intensive temperature state without being burnt or catching on fire. But then Goku builds up the resistance as he explained about his body to Eis Shenron [above]. After building up the resistance Goku is able to even be held for long periods by the higher temperature sun surface upgraded version of Nova in his golden body state.

Hotter than the sun? He's got a few thousand times hotter to go. But I'm glad Goku, despite his solar system + durability can't even handle low solar temperatures. It's not like Thor has fought people dead center of the sun or anything.

Blazing Core of the sun? Thor's not even breaking a sweat. Same with just about every fire Thor's encountered until the "Everything burns" arc. Quite literally a much weaker version of Firelord isn't worth the mention - especially with characters that have had no issues flying through stars or fighting in them.

Translated: http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php#part6 キリ Kili

An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Gokuu's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used.[Par.] Gokuu's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets.

Goku with a PL of 3,000 through the measurements of kili can blow up 10-15 planets greater than the size of earth or 10-15 planets the size of earth at once. This measurement was made or scaled when Goku was in SSJ1 form and SSJ4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ1. It was also confirmed in Daizenshuu 7 which was written by Akira Toriyama and his staff also it was officially published by Shueisha. So how is Thor going to be able to take a blast from a SSJ4 Goku? Thor might have planetary durability but I doubt he has the necessary durability to survive a Kamehameha x10 or supernova leveling explosions and this idea was further confirmed in Dragon Ball Online which was written by Akira Toriyama also this game is canon as well as confirmed by Akira, it`s an official sequel to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Within the courses of the story, Vegeta and Goku have a battle in space in which explosions were created as the result of their fight, these explosions rivaled that of supernovas and these explosions were detected by scientists as well.

Sources for Dragon Ball Online

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1 http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963 http://cafe.daum.net/FoReVerDB/70rX/5635

http://dbmmo.com/about http://wiki.dbmmo.com/index.php?title=Storyline Age 801 officially in text and translated, words of Akira Toriyama!

Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from Earth. Years later explosions on par with supernovas were detected which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta.

Again, made up units of measurements aren't an argument, since you know the creator certainly didn't give them much thought and the characters themselves stuck to planet busting.

But lets use your logic. Congratulations. Goku can't bust Jupiter which is over a hundred times larger than the Earth. Let alone the solar system you could fit billions of Earths into. No there were rumors about how potent their fights were - not actual facts - not actual showings - just more of you blowing them to epic proportions without a leg to stand on. There are two types of Super Nova, Beta Ray Bill was sleeping during one of them and he seemed just fine. It is ridiculous you keep using these copy paste arguments when they themselves dispute your own arguments, rumors aren't facts.

In short:

@neongamewave said:

And Goku is going to allow that? Goku has IT along with Cell who uses IT too also physical force won`t completely get rid of Cell he`ll just regenerate and Thor is very slow when it comes to combat speed so they have the greater combat speed which means they would be able to outmaneuver and react to Thor who swings Mjonir with great strength but not enough speed and reaction. Goku was able to dodge Meta Cooler`s supernova attack at close range and this attack was encompassing the entire area where Goku was, so how is Mjonir going to be able to keep up with Goku and Cell exactly? Mjonir might move at FTL speeds but Thor doesn`t swing Mjonir at those same speeds and Goku as well as Cell are way faster when it comes to combat speed, reaction time and also they are faster when it comes to sensing things, Goku is really good at exploiting blind spots as well, Thor throwing Mjonir could make him temporarily vulnerable.1:28 - 2:30

Like what times exactly? Goku has used it within DBZ and the movies in a very clever way so if your not going to prove how Thor`s hammer would even be able to reach Goku while he is using IT then there is no point to this debate, you saying that Team DBZ wouldn`t be able to harm Team Marvel is just silly and it shows the clear bias. Hulk wouldn`t be able to survive a planetary explosion, Cell will kill him instantly and also I doubt Thor would be able to take on two characters who use IT which allows Goku to travel across dimensions and the entire universe instantly also it is faster than the speed of light. Cell was able to regenerate even after his own self destruct mechanism occurred. Cell could even use this against Thor and Goku could easily use IT to avoid it, they could do this as a strategy also the output of Cell`s explosion is above planetary level we do not know the clear output of Cell`s explosion only that it destroyed one planet that was around if there were multiple planets around they would be destroyed too this is a misconception in regards to Goku`s durability as they say that he couldn`t even survive Cell`s explosion but the explosion itself is above planetary level. Both Cell and Goku fight at FTL speeds as well.

He doesn't have much choice in the matter, using the Instant Transmission to dodge attacks right in-front of his face he was too slow to dodge, especially given the instant transmission isn't instantaneous because that would require Goku to have instantaneous thought - despite needing to not only understand where he wants to go, but to react in order to do this at all - but you're going to argue otherwise, because to hell with common sense. Metal Cooler doesn't even seem to be canon to GT - you know since they never fought like that despite most of the roster not having IT.

But I'm glad we established how both these characters got tagged regardless of instant transmission - because saying they are untouchable when characters without IT where hitting them is stupid. He's going to hit the two of them like EVERYONE else that did. If IT made Cell untouchable you should have told that to Gohan, same to every other villain that was still tagging Goku or to Gohan and his kids when Goku left them to die on Earth to Buu's planet buster due to his lack of ability to get to them in time (but I thought IT was faster than FTL?!).

But you know whats a fun argument to pull out right now? How does Goku and the rest of the cast fight at these speeds? Come on, I know you know the answer. And what does the hammer lack? Oh that's right. Goku won't even be able to see Mjolnir, neither will Cell. Isn't that a stinker? Thor hits hard enough to destroy molecules, he has quite literally vaporized Uilik the Troll hitting him with his hammer.

Shown to be planetary level by destroying a planet smaller than some people's homes. Awesome, claiming it's above planetary level when all it was going to do was destroy the planet seems a bit - you know - ridiculous.

But I know that your next response is going to be that Cell and Goku wouldn`t be able to survive a hit from Mjonir, also that Cell cannot Solar System bust and etc. This comment of yours already says something, your basically implying that they wouldn`t even be able to hurt Thor who has been taken down by weaker attacks before that are not necessarily planetary level and Hulk is one of the opponents he definitely will be taken out, Thor ain`t going to be able to endure through dimensional and solar system busting attacks at all especially when they would be fired at one given point in time but I know what your next response going to be, its predictable your just going to dismiss my post as being DBZ fan logic and you will even ignore the author`s official confirmations then you will break it down using assumptions such as Thor would just be able to erase Cell with lightning bolts even when Cell endured through an attack that is planetary+ level and you forget the fact that Cell is a fighting genius and he is a super computer he would be able to predict as well as analyze Thor`s attacks, the comment below makes me want to not debate with someone who clearly doesn`t know a lot about DBZ and how it works or what it was meant to be.

Goku? No he wouldn't be able to. Cell would be peeling over on the floor unable to move from the pain. Considering his self destruct reduced him to Cells, he can't. Him releasing a multi-light year explosion isn't even possible for the character, much less would he survive it. How much power does it take to bust a dimension? Show me Cell busting a Solar System. What does fighting genius do for anyone in the DBU? Buu had next to no fighting ability and he mopped the floor with the cast - its all about power, not skill, in this universe.

The fun fact of it all is, because I know what I do know about DBZ is the reason why I can dismantle this arguments. Because you don't have evidence - you have assumptions, you have text and quite honestly hyperbole is a bigger factor in Thor's favor - than anyone in the DBU.

This post just proves my point about what I said and made clear earlier.

Its clear that you haven`t watched GT in its entirety and you do not know how concentrated, focused, expanded and radial attacks work within the universe of DB. You just ignored my posts about why Cell could bust a solar system and you dismissed my argument by using the power scaling doesn`t work excuse just like I said you would do. Also your downgrading Cell and Gohan, Gohan just went SSJ2 as his power increases dramatically he was destroying Cell because of difference in power and his attack was able to overpower Cell`s Solar System busting attack just like how Goku`s kamehameha attack overpowered Vegeta`s planet busting attack called the Galick Gun, GT is non canon as well so the movies being included as they are still included within the timeline shouldn`t be an area of concern and it just shows the nature of IT. Also it would be two against one as I have said not one against one and how can Thor just bat away simultaneous attacks all at once especially since both Goku and Cell utilize IT within combat? You know that Gohan like other DBZ characters is FTL when it comes to combat speed and him hurting Cell isn`t necessarily a low feat? Also like I said blunt force won`t cut it, and what people forget is that Gohan`s kamehameha is in particular Father-Son kamehameha which has the energy of Goku and encouraging as well his attack at first was being overpowered by Cell`s Solar Kamehameha which is a solar system busting attack meaning Father-Son Kamehameha>>>Solar Kamehameha.

I haven't watched GT? The funny thing is I wish I hadn't. So concentrated attacks are you excuse for why Baby's blast that destroys everything around Goku, but the ground under his feet? Neat, that makes a lot of sense - except you know it doesn't. If they had dropped an atom bomb on Goku, there would not have been a dirt pillar under his feet. See I don't quite care about WHY YOU THINK CELL IS A SOLAR SYSTEM BUSTER I want to actually see real evidence - not quotes from the author after the fact, not handbook entries you're more or less taking translated liberties with, not hyperbole. I want to see Cell or any of the Z-Fighters actually bust a solar system, not pixel them away, but to unleash that Kamehameha and boom no more star, planets or moons. Not you using made up numbers that mean nothing outside "this guy is pretty strong!".

I'm well aware GT is not canon, that's why Cooler makes an appearance with the resurrected villains. The problem is this super speed IT dodging ability didn't exist in it - and that is why every character that becomes Goku's opponent can hit him.

Thor blocks beams energy by twirling is hammer really fast into a full body shield - him smacking them away with a swing isn't at all out of the question.

I mean hell if you were arguing for Thor you'd be arguing his arm has instantaneous movement by now. What does Gohan's speed have to do with the fact that Cell peeled over in pain from simply being punched? Thor could quite literally let-go his hammer and command it to fling itself through his opponent's chests:

If a hit from Gohan completely had Cell on the ropes, a hammer through the chest will make it kinda an easy way for Thor to hammer his opponent to oblivion.

Also if you watched GT clearly you would know that Goku destroyed that dimension as they even said their aim and goal was to break out of that dimension and they proceeded to going to the next world, you clearly haven`t watched GT and the bias is evident as you even said Goku was just simply poking a hole within the dimension when his blast encompassed the entire dimension as well as destroyed it in its entirety. The episode by the way in which the dimension busting occurred is called The Game After Life and it is episode 30 so watch it for yourself. Both Goku and Sugoro are trapped in an unknown dimension and the the theme of the episode is taking risks as well as partaking in life threatening games and they were transported to the Sacred World of the Kais once they escaped the dimension after Goku blows it up with a kamehameha in his base form, Goku and Sugoro both escape. That was Goku in base form in his SSJ4 form he is far greater in raw destructive power so Thor wouldn`t be able to endure through those types of attacks that are being concentrated also Cell alone would be a problem considering can fire from a different angle, his Solar Kamehameha is a solar system busting attack so Thor pretty much gets wrecked once the attacks manage to connect and hit him in full contact. Your very biased and like I said before, as I will say it again, I know what your next post is going to be so there is no need for me to respond to a biased argument. You posted good scans and the feats are pretty good but what you are forgetting is that Norrin Rad is one individual who I believe was going all out against Thor and Cell as well as Goku are two individuals who Thor has absolutely no knowledge of, Thor is familiar with the Silver Surfer and they`ve fought before, both Thor and Goku fight at FTL speeds and they both use Instant Transmission so how is Thor going to be able to compete with that? You using Beta Ray Bill as a way to prove a point about power scaling and Thor is not really a good argument.

Clearly he destroyed the dimension because he had to escape it? Instead of telling me how "clear" that it, show it by having SOME measure of confirmation that actually happened. That scene didn't mention anything about Goku needing to destroy anything to escape. In other words, you're making things up and using it in an argument despite how entirely pointless it is to mention. Thor wouldn't be able to endure those types of attacks? How much power does it take to destroy a dimension and how much more powerful is that kind of attack at SSJ4. Don't rush yourself to answer, give it some thought before coming to the conclusion that you can't answer, because its a feat that is kinda hard to quantify in terms of actual power in a fight.

Good luck to Cell making contact with his solar system busting Kamehameha and not having it thrown back at him with 10 times its original force:

I could sit here listing showings where Thor uses Mjolnir to absorb an attack and redirected it magnified significantly to his opponent - leading to said opponents loss. This case he was doing it to a walking pantheon of dark gods that were playing around with worlds in their hands.

I'm super totally bias - in the sense argument that are built off assumptions and that lack any real substantial evidence (if you could prove Cell could bust Solar Systems, you would be posting scans, not translations or trying to work with power levels as a crutch for a makeshift argument). Because I can for the most part actually supply ON PANEL evidence for my arguments, not after thoughts of the writer or interviews from the writer. The later portion of your post is confusingly written, but yeah using Beta Ray Bill showings in a thread as a place holder for Thor is a lot more legitimate given the history of the characters (as in Odin giving Beta Ray Bill Thor's power - in a sense making them equals). Rather than muttering on and on about how X character can do this, so Y character can do that - X and Y are sporting the same power and I can post scans.

This argument alone makes no sense. Goku like I said has IT which is faster than light by a huge degree and is instantaneous, Goku can also sense things as well as exploit blind spots so Mjonir wouldn`t catch him off guard. Cell also has IT and what would blunt force do? It takes attacks greater than his own to truly destroy him, attacks within DBZ usually work on an atomic level in regards to vaporizing things with amazing regeneration, Buu and Cell are great examples so how is Thor simply grabbing Mjonir and smashing Cell going to actually solve the problem? Especially when his teammate Hulk would be long gone and Goku would be there to attack Thor? Nonsense? The same DBZ characters who can sense energy and destroy moons with low Power Levels? Ever heard of concentrated explosions or energy beams? The bias speaks for itself and there is no need for me to respond to that.

How much faster is a huge degree? So we're going to ignore Goku having to think to use it and call it instantaneous or every time someone hits him in the series that doesn't have IT? I guess we'd have to in order for your argument to even be relevant. Attacks in the DBU work on what level now? Feel free to show me any evidence of something working on the atomic level - because this is more nonsense. Because Thor's hammer has been commented as being capable of breaking down the molecules of whatever it strikes, on more than one occasion Beta Ray Bill and Thor have vaporized almost entirely their opponents smashing his hammer - maybe partly due to those electrical discharges, regardless Thor smash - Cell turns into ash.

If you can't accept that than he can resort to lightning.

Or if you remain stubborn he could go the route of simply draining Cell of his life force or simply his energy and blasting him with it.

Then he can use their awesome powers that blow up everything + against his opponents. You keep muttering on about bias, which is funny because for all my bias I'm posting actual panel evidence... you... not so much.

Gogeta>>>>>>>>>Omega Shenron and he used his ki to manipulate the negative energy within Omega Shenron`s karma ball to change it into positive energy which furthers my point about how ki control is important you just furthered and supported my point rather than debunk it. Omega Shenron was planning on destroying the earth he even condensed his energy beam which he concentrated and at first once he was harnessing the energy it could of been bigger than the earth this proves my point and it brings us back to DBZ, Kid Buu did the same thing but did it the opposite way he increased the size of his blast due to his smaller planet busting attacks failing, I`ll post the videos here to refresh your memory. As said by Popo, Omega was destroying stars and galaxies wiping out parts of the cosmos and what do you mean still there. Your arguments have been addressed before as you ignored the links I had suggested you read to get a better understanding of DBZ. Omega Shenron focused that attack which is called a karma ball and it took a Universal Spirit Bomb to destroy him, that`s how dangerous Omega was, he wasn`t destroyed by a Spirit Bomb but a Universal Spirit Bomb that gathers energy from across the entire universe, Gogeta`s attack are of that power within range and overall destructive capacity due to the fact that his Big Bang Kamehameha was about to destroy Omega the second time until he split apart due to the time limit of the fusion so that event of Omega having his karma ball altered to become positive energy is not exactly a low showing and you using it as a way to mock what actually happened is sad also SSJ4 Gogeta is a fusion of two extremely powerful Super Saiyan 4 characters who understand the core principles of ki and Omega was wrecking everybody until Goku and Vegeta fused to become SSJ4 Gogeta. So Thor would be wounded by powerful attacks of that nature which would be produced by dimension and solar system busters such as SSJ4 Goku and Cell. Also like I said Goku could always use Super Dragon Fist which Thor wouldn`t see coming and Cell could have him distracted, its two against one not one against one. Also notice how Goku uses Super Dragon Fist to harm or destroy opponents far greater than in him in power, he overpowered Eis, Super 17 and Omega Shenron with the attack itself, remember Syn Shenron took a full blast from SSJ4 Goku`s kamehameha and was left unscathed yet the Super Dragon Fist was able to destroy him, his regeneration saved him.

Daizenshuu 7 - Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe" 6:30 - 9:20

I could respond to your entire post and just address the very structure of your biased as well as opinionated arguments but like I said, I know what your going to respond with next and there is no point, your just going to write me off as a person who uses DBZ logic and power scaling.

Lucky for Gogeta Omega Shenron doesn't have the common sense to move out of the Big Bang Kamehameha. Gogeta placed some of his own life energy into the ball that somehow turned all that negative energy of humanity into its sunshine ball form, when it was sent off the planet - poof - planet sized explosion that destroys negativity. No he simply fired a more powerful attack Vegeta couldn't deflect (Goku was sitting here like a sack of bricks, if it wasn't for Vegeta he would have died from the first attack). Ironically said blast also results in Kid Buu being blown to bits - Yay for planet busters!

What do I mean its still there? The Cosmos is still there. That's exactly what I mean, unless you're referring to the "universal" attack Omega launched, that would go planet to planet, then that was a lot less impressive that it was made out to be. How much power does a universal spirit bomb have? Given how much more durable Thor is compared to either of these characters, especially GT Goku who has really really really poor low ends for showings. I doubt they are going to be able to hurt him.

Dragon Fist isn't going to do anything. It would be entertaining to see him teleport them into the sun since neither Cell or Goku have anywhere close to the durability to not die:

You are using power scaling and modeling your argument based off how powerful you think the characters are - not how powerful they where shown to be on panel or in animated form.

#27 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Like I said, I know what your next post was going to be many of the arguments within this post just downgrades Goku by a lot and put heavy emphasis on Thor`s supposed lightning strikes, very predictable. Then you attempt to debunk Cell being a solar system buster by saying that I use power scaling logic instead of feats which contrary to popular belief is not the only option for finding out the main priority in regards to evidence, confirmed as predicted just like I said and you mentioning the solar system durability for Goku along with relating it to Nuova Shenron and his flames is taken out of context completely you forget the fact that Nuova becomes a lot more powerful when in his new transformed state and Goku is able to resist him, everything else doesn`t need explaining like I said, I knew what you were going to post. I can tell by the nature of your arguments that you do not know much about Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT or the universe surrounding the franchise.

#28 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@isaac_clarke: Like I said, I know what your next post was going to be many of the arguments within this post just downgrades Goku by a lot and put heavy emphasis on Thor`s supposed lightning strikes, very predictable. Then you attempt to debunk Cell being a solar system buster by saying that I use power scaling logic instead of feats which contrary to popular belief is not the only option for finding out the main priority in regards to evidence, confirmed as predicted just like I said and you mentioning the solar system durability for Goku along with relating it to Nuova Shenron and his flames is taken out of context completely you forget the fact that Nuova becomes a lot more powerful when in his new transformed state and Goku is able to resist him, everything else doesn`t need explaining like I said, I knew what you were going to post. I can tell by the nature of your arguments that you do not know much about Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT or the universe surrounding the franchise.

Not sure where the emphasis I put on Thor's lightning strikes is, but you do use power scaling as an argument - not actual showings that prove your points.

It isn't so much a lack of knowledge, as it is being fully aware of what I'm talking about. With the exception of using rumors from Dragon Ball Online as an actual argument, you're posting the same stuff me and Hitsu would argue for pages and pages on Vice. You're aren't showing me anything I haven't seen a dozen times before or argued to death.

Contrary to popular belief I'm a fan of the series - it has a charm to it despite it not being particular good. The problem is how the fan-base argues for the franchise in debates, for the most part with any degree of scrutiny a lot of what is being argued either can't be proved at all or simply isn't consistent with what is being claimed in arguments.

An excellent example is this entire tirade you go off on involving dimension busting, something the dub or sub or anything never really mentions actually happened. All you've got is a youtube title - and even then if it did happen, it is completely unquantifiable in a fight. Same with any arguments rolling around trying to make sense of power levels - something that was an after-thought designed entirely to build tension - regardless of how powerful these characters became, they were planet busters and they would never exceed that in the series and you can't prove they did. Not with evidence from the actual source material. Lets not even get into Solar System busting or how Goku fails to conquer temperatures a fraction of that of the star's.

I don't even have an issue with considering Dragon Ball Online canon, its the whole fact you're trying to use a myth from the game as an argument. There are no videos of Goku or Vegeta released solar system explosions randomly. Nothing - just a myth, in the game.

#29 Edited by Picallo3798 (226 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless there was some revision that Im not seeing like dumbing down team 1 then team 1 WTF stompts this with little effort. Goku ~ Thor but Cell >>>> Hulk unless its WWH which would even up the odds a little bit more. Otherwise team 1 STOMP

#30 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless there was some revision that Im not seeing like dumbing down team 1 then team 1 WTF stompts this with little effort. Goku ~ Thor but Cell >>>> Hulk unless its WWH which would even up the odds a little bit more. Otherwise team 1 STOMP

I don't know Piccollo, you're probably the least biased person here since you're not a DBZ fan at all.

Your tearing me apart Lisa!

Since when is the current iteration of the Hulk any weaker than World Breaker?

#31 Posted by Theorder14 (1575 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 take this. Superior combat speed and greater versatility

#32 Posted by Tim2daresq (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 wins, no doubt.

#34 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio
@theorder14 said:

Team 1 take this. Superior combat speed and greater versatility

Except they don't have greater versatility.

@tim2daresq said:

Team 1 wins, no doubt.

Nope.

When the DBZ villain became a giant pink gumball with mittens and a diaper I couldnt take it anymore. I moved on to series like Berzerk and Hellsing. Talking about Hulk Im not sure. There are so many versions of every character its hard to keep up anymore. I do know that WWH fought sentry to standstill. Sentry is a tough cookie. If this is not WWH though dont see Marvel getting a win.

Thor's one-shotted the Sentry before, clear off the page in a single hit before jobbing to the Dark Avengers combined blast - despite defeating their most powerful member effortlessly.

The Sentry was also face tanking the Hulk's fists, the impressive part of that showing was after the fight when Bruce Hulk and starts sinking the Eastern seaboard with his foot-steps. The World-Breaker persona as far as I've seen hasn't gone anywhere and quite honestly doesn't contribute to this fight outside thunderclap - which could feasible through Cell and Goku into a rut.

I was actually being sarcastic, mainly on the account of your name and your original post. Not to mention quoted post insisting this was a stomp. Which given my argument I don't agree with, the idea that Thor needs the Hulk at all to win is a bit silly - he's vastly more durable than the both of these characters and if we're going by his showings, he out-performs them in his fights against vastly more powerful opponents and not getting obliterated. He's gone toe to toe with everything from Elder Gods, Skyfathers, Abstracts and or you name it. I can't see Goku or Cell replicating any of these fights against Glory, Galactus or the Phoenix Force - much less fight the Phoenix Force what appears to be light years as it consumes planet to planet till they reach Earth's moon where he finally goes down.

#35 Posted by Theorder14 (1575 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: well, there's no doubt that they have better combat speed

Goku's main style is bushido and he can sense his opponents every movement without seeing them. Both Goku and Cell can use alot of techniques like phanthoms, solar flare and IT etc Add that to their combat speed and planet busting beams and they should take this with ease.

#37 Posted by russellmania77 (15673 posts) - - Show Bio

goku solo -_-

...

...

-but WHY???

just look at neongamewave's post, if you dont agree than argue with him

#38 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

goku solo -_-

...

...

-but WHY???

just look at neongamewave's post, if you dont agree than argue with him

Post length that eats up a third of the thread doesn't warrant a character winning. Especially if you're blasting the thread with irrelevant large scans.

#39 Edited by Theorder14 (1575 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke

lol, i believe Goku and cell's ki strikes is capable of hurting the both of them. i mean, their punches and kicks have created shockwaves and destroyed mountains. and didn't Spiderman's punches wear Thor down?(ahh but whateva i don't know which version of thor that was)

y, i guess ur right about the solar flare but i still believe phanthoms and IT should prove to be useful. They can use phanthoms to distract Thor for even a moment and use IT + charge a planet busting beam for the kill and just because they charge beams doesn't mean that it's happening in real times. It's been shown and stated that dbz character fight in speed faster than what the human eye can see several times, so it's not like we can judge how fast they're going on-panel.

Goku have shown to dodge light speed beams already during Frieza saga so i doubt Thor would be able to tag ss4 Goku and Cell.

and i believe this is not ki sensing ,right? anyway, gonna sleep now, good night :P

#40 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@isaac_clarke: Like I said, I know what your next post was going to be many of the arguments within this post just downgrades Goku by a lot and put heavy emphasis on Thor`s supposed lightning strikes, very predictable. Then you attempt to debunk Cell being a solar system buster by saying that I use power scaling logic instead of feats which contrary to popular belief is not the only option for finding out the main priority in regards to evidence, confirmed as predicted just like I said and you mentioning the solar system durability for Goku along with relating it to Nuova Shenron and his flames is taken out of context completely you forget the fact that Nuova becomes a lot more powerful when in his new transformed state and Goku is able to resist him, everything else doesn`t need explaining like I said, I knew what you were going to post. I can tell by the nature of your arguments that you do not know much about Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT or the universe surrounding the franchise.

Not sure where the emphasis I put on Thor's lightning strikes is, but you do use power scaling as an argument - not actual showings that prove your points.

It isn't so much a lack of knowledge, as it is being fully aware of what I'm talking about. With the exception of using rumors from Dragon Ball Online as an actual argument, you're posting the same stuff me and Hitsu would argue for pages and pages on Vice. You're aren't showing me anything I haven't seen a dozen times before or argued to death.

Contrary to popular belief I'm a fan of the series - it has a charm to it despite it not being particular good. The problem is how the fan-base argues for the franchise in debates, for the most part with any degree of scrutiny a lot of what is being argued either can't be proved at all or simply isn't consistent with what is being claimed in arguments.

An excellent example is this entire tirade you go off on involving dimension busting, something the dub or sub or anything never really mentions actually happened. All you've got is a YouTube title - and even then if it did happen, it is completely unquantifiable in a fight. Same with any arguments rolling around trying to make sense of power levels - something that was an after-thought designed entirely to build tension - regardless of how powerful these characters became, they were planet busters and they would never exceed that in the series and you can't prove they did. Not with evidence from the actual source material. Lets not even get into Solar System busting or how Goku fails to conquer temperatures a fraction of that of the star's.

I don't even have an issue with considering Dragon Ball Online canon, its the whole fact you're trying to use a myth from the game as an argument. There are no videos of Goku or Vegeta released solar system explosions randomly. Nothing - just a myth, in the game.

Like I said this is exactly what you were going to say, you won`t accept it pretty much no one really does although I could understand why, however its logical and it fits with the fundamental values of Dragon Ball.

Rumors? It was actually reported by scientists, if I`m not mistaken.

Because you cannot accept and try to understand the logic behind it, you may be a fan but it doesn`t mean that you know what the series is about or what it is based on in regards to how feats are established and a casual fan wouldn`t understand these types of things a more knowledgeable and reasonable one would.

The video is official, did you even watch the episode? Sugoro clearly said that they were in a dimension so I don`t know what your talking about and that attack was Goku`s Kamehameha attack that is why its a factor within this fight also that was base form Goku not SSJ4. Like I said, you would only want feats you do not want handbooks which were written by the author and creator, nor do you want logical and commonsensical power scaling to help further explain the clear idea. Also you just downgraded the entire DBZ series, some fan you are and Frieza in his first form with a PL of 530,000 destroyed Planet Vegeta which is 10x the size or mass of earth and he used roughly 1% of his power, he still would be a bug to Cell in his Final Form and Perfect Cell based solely on destructive power, capacity, output and potential would still be>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Form Frieza but obviously you wouldn`t accept this because your too grounded in feats, Marvel and DC or comics in general.

It is not a myth, within the game it is confirmed by Akira Toriyama within the Chronicles of the game and I believe there was mention of scientists detecting the explosions as well as witnessing Vegeta and Goku`s fight.

In my opinion, Team DBZ slaughters.

#41 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke

lol, i believe Goku and cell's ki strikes is capable of hurting the both of them. i mean, their punches and kicks have created shockwaves and destroyed mountains. and didn't Spiderman's punches wear Thor down?(ahh but whateva i don't know which version of thor that was)

y, i guess ur right about the solar flare but i still believe phanthoms and IT should prove to be useful. They can use phanthoms to distract Thor for even a moment and use IT + charge a planet busting beam for the kill and just because they charge beams doesn't mean that it's happening in real times. It's been shown and stated that dbz character fight in speed faster than what the human eye can see several times, so it's not like we can judge how fast they're going on-panel.

Goku have shown to dodge light speed beams already during Frieza saga so i doubt Thor would be able to tag ss4 Goku and Cell.

and i believe this is not ki sensing ,right? anyway, gonna sleep now, good night :P

No Spiderman's punches wore Thunderstrike down. You know, the guy Thor was kicking to the curb one on one with his bare hands. Mongoose is who you're looking for, but that's partly because while Thor is on Avenger duty he is a walking plot device or a jobber (and it was decades ago). If super speed was his achilles heel the Sentry wouldn't have been BFRed by one of his punches.

Considering the cameras were able to get enough of the Cell Games to put on a full re-enactment, despite those FTL speeds, they weren't going fast enough to avoid having people get some idea of what they were doing. We have no real way to tell how fast these characters are fighting half the time, just how fast they can dodge things at times and even then because of how inconsistent the series is that doesn't bode well in argument.

They are willing to self BFR in order to charge up a blast to fight Thor? And why can't Thor deflect these attacks? Why can't he tank them without breaking a sweat? Bill was throwing people through planets and tanking point blank planet busters without fail - Thor's has been the ringer of abstracts blasting him and him still being there to fight on for light years.

Thor can throw his hammer at twice the speed of light at its slowest. It's been clocked going much faster with a toss under Thors commands and he's quite literally had it follow people before. He will hit them, likely mid charge since they can't seemingly move around outside of IT which charging their blasts.

How does he sense the disruptions in the atmosphere from a hammer being flung at him at such incredible speeds? As far as I recall by the time they are in DBZ they're using someone ki to keep track of their opponents (despite looking straight at them and being able to perceive those FLT speeds - it's a miracle solar flare stops these characters from annihilating another since they don't use their eyes in battle!)

#42 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

You're the one telling this story and making it out to be that people think it might Goku and Vegeta. The issue I take with this is the lack of anyone KNOWING its them. Unless those Scientists have any visuals of the two fighting, you're hard pressed to use it as a feat for them when we don't know if it is them.

What it is about? It used to be about adventure in Dragon Ball. Then in DBZ it slowly de-evolved into who was the next big bad to beat up on the cast and how pointy their hair could become. There's nothing really else to get from it outside that. I'm perfectly reasonable, but you need evidence from the source material - not interviews after the fact or data-books, which are again after the fact. What the latter tells me is you can't prove your argument within the context of the actual material in question - you instead go outside of it and try to roll an argument around that.

The video is official, did you even watch the episode? Sugoro clearly said that they were in a dimension so I don`t know what your talking about and that attack was Goku`s Kamehameha attack that is why its a factor within this fight also that was base form Goku not SSJ4. Like I said, you would only want feats you do not want handbooks which were written by the author and creator, nor do you want logical and commonsensical power scaling to help further explain the clear idea. Also you just downgraded the entire DBZ series, some fan you are and Frieza in his first form with a PL of 530,000 destroyed Planet Vegeta which is 10x the size or mass of earth and he used roughly 1% of his power, he still would be a bug to Cell in his Final Form and Perfect Cell based solely on destructive power, capacity, output and potential would still be>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Form Frieza but obviously you wouldn`t accept this because your too grounded in feats, Marvel and DC or comics in general.

I'm fully aware the video itself is from the GT series. The problem is it doesn't show what you claim it does. There is no mention of a dimension being destroyed outside of the youtube title - you have yet to prove otherwise despite me repeatedly saying this. You're simply inferring that is the case without actually bringing anything that remotely implied that was the case to the table. From there you're trying to tell me how its applicable to the fight despite it being completely un-quantifiable - we don't know how much power is required to blast a hole in a dimension and therefore don't know what kind of destructive power it actually would have. It doesn't help that shouting in the DBU is apparently capable of poking holes in dimensions.

Regardless unless Thor is that dimension, it's a completely non-mention worthy feat in a debate. I poke holes in bad arguments, I don't need to downgrade the character - GT does that for me.

You forgot to mention his attack was also seemingly powerful enough sent Bardock back in time. Here's the hilarity of this argument, you can't confirm if planet Vegeta is either 10x as large or 10x as dense as the Earth - and because of the lack of a damn the DBU has for realistic universe - it could be neither. Case and point, King Kai's world. The inconsistency of the DBU and the lack of anything solid to argue with makes debating for the DBU extremely difficult.

Was Frieza ever confirmed to do that in his first form? Manga are comics in my book, just with less pretty colors.

If you can then show me where it is confirmed that they make supernova isque explosions in space and then show me them doing it - then you've got something. Till then, you're telling me what you think you've heard, not what is actually being said.

In my opinion this is an incredibly one sided fight in Thor's favor. And that is simply due to his durability - Goku in your opinion here is Cell's superior - he has shown to be significantly less durable than Thor, even at both their lowest end showings. Therefore Thor throws his hammer and it will cut them in two.

#43 Posted by Simon_the_digger (3079 posts) - - Show Bio

^The engineer seems to be owning.

#44 Posted by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Its funny how you haven`t watched the episode yet you make so many assumptions about it, if you really did watch GT you would know that Goku and Sugoro escaped that dimension by destroying it and like I said the supernovas were explained within the official chronicles, if you don`t accept the handbooks or power scaling then there is no point the feats or potential of the characters was further established within the handbooks by the creator. I can easily provide manga scans and anime scenes but we both know what comes next. Frieza was shown to destroy the planet through the anime and a newly released recoloring of the event in manga form, I believe. I really want to debunk your arguments but then we have this.

You really don't make me want to debate with you because of the rampant amount of spamming you do with your posts making them completely unnecessarily long in place of actually having evidence.

@neongamewave said:

DBZ wrecks.

How they can't even hurt their opponent.

#45 Edited by luthluth (84 posts) - - Show Bio

Screw non cannon ssj4 goku, super perfect cell is my favourite DBZ villain, i think he alone can take on both thor and hulk with the advantage of his regeneration ability, superior speed and power output.

#46 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Its funny how you haven`t watched the episode yet you make so many assumptions about it, if you really did watch GT you would know that Goku and Sugoro escaped that dimension by destroying it and like I said the supernovas were explained within the official chronicles, if you don`t accept the handbooks or power scaling then there is no point the feats or potential of the characters was further established within the handbooks by the creator. I can easily provide manga scans and anime scenes but we both know what comes next. Frieza was shown to destroy the planet through the anime and a newly released recoloring of the event in manga form, I believe. I really want to debunk your arguments but then we have this.

It isn't funny and I'm not going' to watch an entire episode of GT looking for evidence you're insisting is there if I watch it. If there is a specific part of the episode you want me to see, provide a time-stamp. Outside that I'm not going to watch an episode of GT just to see how they do not confirm the dimension was destroyed. And even if you did, can you explain why this matters at all? Honestly, why would it matter? Thor isn't that dimension and its a completely unquantifiable feat.

Explained in the official chronicles? Can you show me where it says Vegeta and Goku are actually causing super-nova explosions or anything substantial behind this piece of mythology you keep totting around like an argument? Because

Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from Earth. Years later explosions on par with supernovas were detected which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta.

According to the wiki text you copy pasted here, the term is believed. That isn't confirmation of power, that isn't confirmation of anything. Even the vague subtext you're providing me doesn't confirm anything, much less does it seem you can find the evidence to prove it. So again, not worth a mention. Handbooks for any franchise as far as I'm concerned isn't the best source for information - authors of characters have a bad habit of not being particularly accurate - and in a series as inconsistent as DBZ - it could get pretty random. It doesn't help that you're likely relying on vague translations like the one above to boot.

The animated version of events that transpired that resulted in the destruction of planet Vegeta wasn't canon to anything outside arguably GT and definitely canon to Bardock's animated story (there is a manga counterpart that I haven't bothered reading) - and even then that would be a stretch. Namely why I ask if you could confirm it was done in his first form, not that I doubt it.

We certainly do know what comes next, mainly me telling you how to convince me and that requires something more substantial than hearsay or how powerful these character are from your perspective as you use math based off whatever made up nonsensical numbers provided or something of the sort. All it takes is a scan or video that actually confirms your claims - instead you lacking that evidence have to go such a round about way to prove your points I honestly poke holes through. According to you're earlier posts, Goku lacked the ability during Buu Saga to bust Jupiter and would need to be hundreds of millions of times more powerful just to destroy the solar system. I understand why its difficult and I don't expect you to find that evidence because it isn't there in the source material of either GT or DBZ. It sucks, but that's how it is.

You do have my posts, one referring to how you make unnecessarily long posts that make the threads themselves a hassle to scroll through, much-less to respond to. With an assortment of scans or assumptions that don't prove anything pertaining to the argument. I said they can't hurt Thor - your challenge was to bear evidence that says otherwise. Because I've got more than enough scans of Thor tanking attacks that likely would vaporized the DBZ cast, easily - whether those are shots from Galactus or the Phoenix Force that is consuming planets or attacks that are tearing apart reality / time around him as he channels it into Mjolnir.

#47 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Links for the Dragon Ball GT episodes

http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-gt-episode-30/

http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-gt-episode-31/

http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-gt-episode-32/

Or to make it easier for you, here is the official video and the event in which it clearly shows Goku along with Sugoro progressing from the destruction of the dimension into another location which clearly shows and proves that Goku indeed destroyed the dimension an event which was very blatantly obvious yet you remain stubborn and in refusal to acknowledge.

These links will give you an understanding of the story and why Goku ended up in that situation. There are two options, pick any of the two.

Dragon Ball Online

Wiki text? Its officially from the Chronicles of the story and it was written by Akira Toriyama himself.

http://dbmmo.com/about

http://wiki.dbmmo.com/index.php?title=Storyline

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://cafe.daum.net/FoReVerDB/70rX/5635

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

Links to help you understand the concepts and fundamentals about Dragon Ball

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/gotenks-vs-gladiator-754227/?page=2 (Read pages 2-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/krillin-vs-iron-man-755603/?page=1 (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/thor-vs-goku-745612/?page=2 (Read pages 2-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/frieza-vs-ms-marvel-752556/ (Read pages 2-3)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/krillin-vs-roshi-tao-king-piccolo-goku-piccolo-jr--752987/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/goku-vs-superman-has-changed-753446/ (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/celldbz-vs-ultron-753512/ (Read pages 1-3)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/debunk-a-feat-dbz-mangaanime-730592/ (Read pages 1-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/supergirl-vs-goku-755917/?page=3 (Read pages 3-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/magneto-vs-cell-747290/?page=4 (Read pages 3-4)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ssj4-goku-vs-darkseid-757246/ (Read pages 1-2)

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/4055-46445/forums/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters-679193/

isaac_clarke: Handbooks for any franchise as far as I'm concerned isn't the best source for information - authors of characters have a bad habit of not being particularly accurate - and in a series as inconsistent as DBZ - it could get pretty random. It doesn't help that you're likely relying on vague translations like the one above to boot.

Handbooks are very important and if not contradicted then they serve a purpose. Marvel has handbooks of their own which actually are credible most times. Nothing contradicts with Cell`s statement about him being a solar system buster there are feats and logical ideas that support this fact, DBZ isn`t perfect but Marvel and DC have many more inconsistencies the only main problem for DBZ that sticks out like a sore thumb is unquantifiable feats. Feats and actions within DBZ don`t stack up to the basis of what is shown throughout comics, characters within comics have a straightforward showing of feats. DBZ is scaled and measured through a systematical and numerical methodical system in which the further sources that point to the facts lie within the handbooks just like in school you have the textbooks to further support and guide you, you have the handbooks which were left by the creator to further support and guide your understanding. Its evidently explained that within DBZ the main focus isn`t to prove one`s power and show crazy feats to advance the story like as shown in comics, the author instead has it further sourced within the handbooks themselves its up to us as the fans to interpret what he actually meant and by that the facts stand clear, I can tell that your someone who would rather see feats, well I respect that however there are more ways to finding out about information other than feats. Seeing is believing, right by your standards? We have to work with what we have and we are given. Also its not a wise or good thing to throw DBZ in along with the generalizations in regards to handbooks and their overall experiences that deal with contradiction or flawed shortcomings, you either support or point out a contradiction that contradicts with what Akira Toriyama said, implied and confirmed or you can keep yourself in denial to further benefit the ignorance which by definition is a lack of information. If you can`t disapprove why Cell is a solar system buster than you can`t argue against it, its as simple as that, opinions and biases won`t win you the argument or benefit of that doubt of the days of debate. One of the mods even made it more clear as they summed it up, guidebooks can be supplementary while feats are for consistency, handbooks and guidebooks can be included as long as it lines up with the feats in other words as long as it doesn`t contradict anything and you know what that means, it means that my point still stands strong in its validity. Here are the reasons why:

1. Based on Power scaling, Power Levels, and Ki Control Cell would be able to blow up the Solar System which fits in with the fundamental laws of DBZ.

2. It was never contradicted, nothing disapproves it other than ignorance, opinions and bias. The handbooks line up with what Cell was saying and it is confirmed once again within the handbooks also ki control is confirmed by Akira Toriyama.

3. There are no inconsistencies that take away from what Cell was saying.

Ultimately nothing has disapproved the idea of him being able to blow up the solar system and if that`s the case then you cannot argue against it if there is no rebuttal to counter or combat the facts presented also this furthers my point about how feats don`t determine everything and are not the only methods to finding information. Feats are primary due to the fact that they are blatantly and evidently shown but they can be contradicted or taken out of context, Marvel and DC are great examples of this. Having multiple writers proves my point, unlike Dragon Ball which has Akira Toriyama as the one writer and creator, having handbooks, guidebooks, dialogue confirmed through the manga and having no contradictions proves that what Cell was saying is true. Think about it, if Frieza can blow up a planet that has 10x the gravity of earth with a PL of 530,000 in his first form and on top of that advance to his Final Form which is 120,000,0000 then what do you think that means? It means a lot considering the fact that it was confirmed within Daizenshuu 7 that it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets and Cell was millions times more powerful in all areas including and in particular knowingly destructive output capacity then wouldn`t you think he would be able to destroy a solar system? Via through the destruction of the sun which in many cases, DBZ have harnessed and focused their energy blasts to destroy objects that are larger in size to the blasts that they fire? Also Cell is a super computer he would know how much power it would take to destroy a solar system he was officially raised by a super computer and he can sense energy, his body is basically like an energy generator as well. I debated against many people like you before such as VinoVash1234 and Death Certificate being two examples of the many I have debated with who try to debunk DBZ and disapprove it with their bias, none of your arguments surprise me nor enlighten me on something refreshingly new.

I might respond to your post, however my response will be extremely and ridiculously long, I`m afraid it could end up like this.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/dante-devil-may-cry-vs-dormammu-714133/?page=2 (Read my comment which is comment #78)

It might actually be twice as long unfortunately but it will be heavily supported by factual information such as being sourced and referenced from the handbooks such as the Daizenshuus, many other multiple sources, guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guides, manga, videos and my own in depth analysis. The problem though is that I might be busy in the few upcoming days so this might not come to fruition but there is a good chance that it will.

King Kai`s planet has 10x the gravity of Earth and within the scan regarding Goku and King Kai when conversing about Planet Vegeta it is confirmed that Planet Vegeta has the same type of gravity, Frieza destroyed that planet with a PL of 530,000 and within his Final Form he would have a PL of 120,000,000 and Perfect Cell is million times more power than that so him being able to blow up a solar system is not really illogical or far fetched. Piccolo blows up the moon with a concentrated and small energy beam. Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of 139 and the characters became more powerful since then. The scans in regards to Frieza are from the manga and it clearly shows Frieza in his first form as further explained by the flashback also these events happen in the anime as well but obviously in a more cinematic way. Goku actually has enough firepower to bust the planet known as Jupiter and that point made no sense, did you realize that Goku was in SSJ1 form when Babidi measured him and that energy levels are proven to increase once the one who is being measured powers up or prepares to fire an attack? This is further explained within the canon special, Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return, Goku powers up and Vegeta`s brother Tarble has a scouter which instantly gets destroyed once Goku powers up. Goku was in a calm and relaxed state when he was in SSJ1 form during the Buu Saga during the time Babidi was measuring him, he still had a kili of 3,000 and it officially takes only 200-300 kili to blow up 1-2 planets. Tarble was confirmed in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Bulma mentions him and Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods is canon as well also it takes place after Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return. One thing I noticed interesting about DBZ is that the puzzle is starting to fit together at the right time even hinted with in regards to Screw Attack`s lying and bias video about Goku vs Superman. The facts and feats are there if you look hard enough, open up your mind to new ideas in connecting the dots. The creator and author`s idea or what he intended DBZ to be is becoming more clear now although it may not be perfect its still worth it.

12:18 - 13:30

If you can`t accept or try to reasonably understand Dragon Ball and its universe in regards to Power Levels, Power Scaling and Ki Control then don`t bother try to debate it or debate against it by using the many popular arguments of there no feats, ABC logic and that its inconsistent. There will either be a reasonable discussion or one that leads to nowhere, I obviously try to lean towards a reasonable discussion and try not to be or sound bias, I want to be fair and honest. I have read many comics that range from Marvel, DC, Valiant Comics, Dark Horse, Image Comics, IDW, BOOM Studios!, Dynamite Entertainment, Top Cow, Wildstorm, Vertigo and many more. I have read from all of those companies whether it be the primary series or not so primary as more so those series in particular opposition would be classified as the lesser known and I have read from a great range when it comes to manga as well. I read Shonen, Shojo, and Seinen as I have watched the animes in regards to many of the particular series regarding those genres within the concepts of manga. I haven`t read some comics in awhile mostly Marvel, I believe anime/manga is more interesting for me at this point in some areas although I am still well knowledgeable and I understand it very well in regards to comics, I`m not perfect and I`m happy to be honest about that, the Silver Surfer event regarding the Rulk scan was taken out of context and many misunderstood the point I was trying to make, however if I have offended you in anyway, shape or form then I greatly and sincerely apologize also I did not mean to disrespect the character of Silver Surfer or ridicule Jeph Loeb, if I came off that way then I apologize 100% and take responsibility for it. I can tell you that manga and comics operate very differently and I am sure many would agree with me in regards to my experience in reading from both, I can tell you that they are both different although they can be similar and have shared purposes. The way feats are shown, described, implied and sourced are very different. Comics have handbooks but many mangas I know have handbooks and guidebooks also the feats need to really be analyzed for comics you have to be careful to not take things out of context and there are many books containing feats for one character who has appeared in multiple titles, Marvel characters would be a good example and you have to really look into things, manga you have to work with what you have and you also have to try to understand the author`s point of view. Also thank you for the awesome debate so far, I commend you, you are very intelligent like I said and a great debater, and were here to have fun and a good time not to argue rapidly or bicker back and forth but to enlighten and share things with one another in the form of an debate in which we discuss things on an intellectually inspiring and positive level.

#48 Posted by Freefa11 (2418 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, made up units of measurements aren't an argument, since you know the creator certainly didn't give them much thought and the characters themselves stuck to planet busting.

Why wouldn't they be? They clearly state what would be required to destroy a planet, and that Goku is well in excess of this. We do not have enough information to determine exactly how it scales, but just because it's "made up" doesn't mean it is automatically invalid, especially when it gives a real-world example of what it relates too. Someone had to make up joules and kilograms at some point too, you know.

But lets use your logic. Congratulations. Goku can't bust Jupiter which is over a hundred times larger than the Earth. Let alone the solar system you could fit billions of Earths into.

Now see, that's actually not logical based on the kili, since we don't have enough information to know quite how it scales. Also, Goku wasn't full powered at the time, so even if it did scale linearly, he would still get his SS2 and SS3 multipliers. Of course, busting planets doesn't scale linearly with mass either, so there's another error.

Of course, one thing the Kili statement does do is provide yet another piece of evidence that the characters are well beyond planet-busting at this point.

There are two types of Super Nova, Beta Ray Bill was sleeping during one of them and he seemed just fine.

Do you have an issue number for when this happened? Seems more than a little farfetched.

Goku won't even be able to see Mjolnir, neither will Cell. Isn't that a stinker?

So what? Street levellers dodge bullets all the time without being able to actually see them (or outrun them, for that matter). Dodging isn't just pure speed vs pure speed.

Thor hits hard enough to destroy molecules

So what? Saiyan saga Piccolo destroyed the moon with little effort. In what way is destroying unspecified molecules a better feat?

Shown to be planetary level by destroying a planet smaller than some people's homes. Awesome, claiming it's above planetary level when all it was going to do was destroy the planet seems a bit - you know - ridiculous.

Claiming that Cell Saga Cell and SS Goku were no more powerful than first form Freeza seems pretty ridiculous to me. It is made blatantly clear that Freeza's first form is puny even compared to his second, let alone his maximum power. Ignoring this boost in power is basically just trying to disregard the internal logic of the series. DBZ is really very simple compared to comics for the most part, running largely off simple ABC logic. There aren't usually a whole lot of questionable factors you might have to worry about like a Green Lantern vs. Dr. Fate vs. Superman argument. It's more of a Superman vs. Supergirl vs. General Zod argument.

Of course, western Comics use ABC logic all the time as well, and for some reason, fans don't usually have any problem when it happens in Marvel and DC. I mean, taking it out would mean Thor is more powerful than Tyrant; after all, when did Tyrant ever actually bust a planet or a solar system? When were we ever shown Tyrant busting a galaxy. Never. Thor has better feats than him, in that regard, but pretty much everyone who's read Tyrant's appearances can tell he's obviously way above Thor.

So yes, Goku, Cell, the Androids, all way beyond planet-busting. Again, Freeza's first form was a planet buster (a planet 10x the gravity of earth, so some combination of more dense and more massive). Anyone who can physically crush him like a bug, which is just about every major character after the Freeza Saga, is obviously well beyond that.

And again, even before that, Piccolo, a very weak character at the time, and nearly at the very beginning of the series, is a confirmed, on-panel moonbuster. If you include the anime, Vegeta is actually an on-screen planet-buster, and even without it, still implied. Even Freeza's first form could reasonably be well beyond the minimum for destroying earth.

you have assumptions, you have text and quite honestly hyperbole is a bigger factor in Thor's favor - than anyone in the DBU.

No it's not. The thing here is Cell's statement may or may not be hyperbole. We don't actually know how powerful he is, so we don't actually know for sure if he's wrong. We do know he should be way, way beyond basic planet-busting at that point, but we don't really know by how much. It could be hyperbole in the sense of just being wrong. It could also be hyperbole in the sense of him blowing up the sun, which would effectively destroy the solar system without creating an explosion that size (it would also technically be true, since you can't technically have a solar system without at least one star). It could also just be true. Later sources seem to have confirmed that it was simply true. This is not changing things after the fact, this is just clarifying what happened at that moment.

On the other hand, a statement like Mjolnir being the most powerful weapon in the universe is simply wrong. We know it is wrong. Thor loses too many fights for it to be true, and we also know that the most powerful weapon is rightfully the Ultimate Nullifier anyway. An argument could possibly be made for a Cosmic Cube (and if you include the Infinity Gauntlet, that obviously trumps both of them), but Mjolnir isn't anywhere near any of them. Hell, Mjolnir can barely even stagger Ultron most of the time.

See I don't quite care about WHY YOU THINK CELL IS A SOLAR SYSTEM BUSTER I want to actually see real evidence - not quotes from the author after the fact, not handbook entries you're more or less taking translated liberties with, not hyperbole. I want to see Cell or any of the Z-Fighters actually bust a solar system, not pixel them away, but to unleash that Kamehameha and boom no more star, planets or moons. Not you using made up numbers that mean nothing outside "this guy is pretty strong!".

So, I suppose you do think someone like Superman is better than Tyrant, or Thing is stronger than Darkseid? I mean, show me Tyrant destroying a planet on-panel. Show me Darkseid with a strength feat better than class 50.
Plus, you arguing with the author is pointless anyway. If Toriyama said something about DBZ, then that's pretty much just the way it is until he contradicts himself. Saying it "after the fact" doesn't even matter, since all it really does is add clarification, it doesn't actually change anything. Plus, western comics change things "after the fact" all the time, they're called "retcons," and they are canon until something else retcons them again.

I'm well aware GT is not canon, that's why Cooler makes an appearance with the resurrected villains. The problem is this super speed IT dodging ability didn't exist in it - and that is why every character that becomes Goku's opponent can hit him.

but yeah using Beta Ray Bill showings in a thread as a place holder for Thor is a lot more legitimate given the history of the characters (as in Odin giving Beta Ray Bill Thor's power - in a sense making them equals). Rather than muttering on and on about how X character can do this, so Y character can do that - X and Y are sporting the same power and I can post scans.

Not really. Most DBZ characters sport pretty much the same power sets as well, with a few minor differences here and there that usually don't amount to much of anything. The biggest monkey wrench in the DBZ equation is the regeneration Cell and Buu have, but that only brings into question their durability, rather than speed or power, and even then, Cell's durability is still good enough to tank most of the Z-fighter's shots.

Ironically said blast also results in Kid Buu being blown to bits - Yay for planet busters!

I don't know why you think that would be ironic. All of the Buu's obviously have an extreme form of regen instead of high durability, and Kid Buu did survive. Also, there is, again, no reason to believe that blast was merely a planet-buster, and plenty of reason to believe it was well beyond that.

No Spiderman's punches wore Thunderstrike down. You know, the guy Thor was kicking to the curb one on one with his bare hands.

I'm pretty sure that was Masterson when he had Thor's power, not Masterson when he became Thunderstrike.

Mongoose is who you're looking for, but that's partly because while Thor is on Avenger duty he is a walking plot device or a jobber (and it was decades ago).

So, you demand all kinds of clear cut, visual feats for DBZ, but when clear cut visual feats for Thor show something, you write it off? And it's not like his appearances in Avengers make up a small number of his showings or anything. And they don't even account for all his low showings.
Not sure why you consider the time relevant either; you have used decades old instances as well.

Considering the cameras were able to get enough of the Cell Games to put on a full re-enactment, despite those FTL speeds, they weren't going fast enough to avoid having people get some idea of what they were doing.

You mean the re-enactment that showed Mr. Satan crushing Cell by himself? Yeah, I would say they didn't see much of anything that really happened if they found that outcome even remotely plausible.

Thor can throw his hammer at twice the speed of light at its slowest.

I'm pretty sure Mjolnir can move at speeds less than 2c.

How does he sense the disruptions in the atmosphere from a hammer being flung at him at such incredible speeds? As far as I recall by the time they are in DBZ they're using someone ki to keep track of their opponents (despite looking straight at them and being able to perceive those FLT speeds - it's a miracle solar flare stops these characters from annihilating another since they don't use their eyes in battle!)

They obviously use their eyes, they just use them differently than normal. Even when Piccolo was explaining to Gohan how to do it, you will note he never actually told him to close his eyes or not use them at all.

I'm perfectly reasonable, but you need evidence from the source material - not interviews after the fact or data-books, which are again after the fact.

There is nothing unreasonable about using author statements to clarify an event from his work.

You forgot to mention his attack was also seemingly powerful enough sent Bardock back in time. Here's the hilarity of this argument, you can't confirm if planet Vegeta is either 10x as large or 10x as dense as the Earth - and because of the lack of a damn the DBU has for realistic universe - it could be neither. Case and point, King Kai's world. The inconsistency of the DBU and the lack of anything solid to argue with makes debating for the DBU extremely difficult.

Making a planet larger but keeping the mass the same would actually make it have less gravity. In order for the planet to have 10x the gravity of earth, it has to have higher density or higher mass, or some combination of the two. King Kai's planet would have to have ludicrously high density.

And DBZ hardly has a monopoly on inconsistency. DC, off the top of my head, has quoted the moon as having a mass 9 orders of magnitude less than it should, and has drawn it being less than 180,000 km from the earth, when it should be nearly twice that. In fact, just about any illustration you'll find in comics of the earth and moon will show it being much closer than it should be.

Of course, something we do know about planet Vegeta is that it was apparently large enough to accommodate the populations (and evolutions of those populations) of two sentient species, one of which had every member of its race transform into giant ape beings during a full moon, and the other being a highly advanced civilization. And you apparently feel that it is appropriate to compare this to a strange and unique planet that exists in the after life, not normal space, and is home to a whopping 3 inhabitants? Yeah, I see no reason to take King Kai's planet as being anything other than what it was, which was highly anomalous.

I can't see Goku or Cell replicating any of these fights against Glory, Galactus or the Phoenix Force

I'm not even sure why you would mention this. You already think Thor is capable of disintegrating Cell and is practically impervious to his attacks; obviously you'd have to argue that beings more powerful than Thor would do even better, unless you were a blatant hypocrite. Of course, just about anyone who knows much about Galactus will tell you he could disintegrate Thor himself if he had the mind to do so. Thor has been stalemated by Firelord more than once, had a hard time with Airwalker, and a few hard times with the Silver Surfer. He is only around high Herald level. Glory is supposed to be powerful, but at the same time has what, 2 or 3 appearances? Do we have real confirmation of its power? What about its durability? The Phoenix fight I haven't seen, so I can't comment there.

In my opinion this is an incredibly one sided fight in Thor's favor. And that is simply due to his durability - Goku in your opinion here is Cell's superior - he has shown to be significantly less durable than Thor, even at both their lowest end showings.

Wow, do you even know what Thor's lowest showing is? Because I think it would be tough to find something for adult Goku lower than this

I suppose that boat mast must have been falling faster than the speed of light, and with more force than a supernova or the blasts of various Abstracts. Because we know Marvel isn't inconsistent like the DBU or anything.

#49 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@isaac_clarke:

Or to make it easier for you, here is the official video and the event in which it clearly shows Goku along with Sugoro progressing from the destruction of the dimension into another location which clearly shows and proves that Goku indeed destroyed the dimension an event which was very blatantly obvious yet you remain stubborn and in refusal to acknowledge.

These links will give you an understanding of the story and why Goku ended up in that situation. There are two options, pick any of the two.

Thank you for providing a video that completely contradicts what you've been saying:

  • "We'll just make our own door-way out of here" 0:35-0:40
  • "Goku if we break through this dimension there's no guarantee we'll survive what's on the other side" 1:00 - 1:20
  • "HE BROKE THROUGH" 1:40-1:45

He is then teleported out of the dimension, into what appears another one with asteroids plummeting in his direction that he dodges to avoid behind hit (they must have been planet busting + speeds) before being rescued by the Supreme Kai.

If you really want to insist this is dimension busting, despite how the dialogue says he simply blasted his way out - not destroying anything - more power to you. Because really, after all the evidence presented confirming you're wrong and you arguing otherwise - it becomes kinda a waste of time. Especially given this feat isn't even worthwhile to mention for reasons stated at least a few times now.

Dragon Ball Online

Wiki text? Its officially from the Chronicles of the story and it was written by Akira Toriyama himself. Links to help you understand the concepts and fundamentals of Dragon Ball

Too much being posted that eats up thread space. Don't latch onto one thing being said and ignore the rest of what was said. And don't tell me to read an assortment of threads to learn about the fundamentals of Dragon Ball. If you have points, say them - don't waste more of my time.

Handbooks are very important and if not contradicted then they serve a purpose. Marvel has handbooks of their own which actually are credible most times. Nothing contradicts with Cell`s statement about him being a solar system buster there are feats and logical ideas that support this fact, DBZ isn`t perfect but Marvel and DC have many more inconsistencies the only main problem for DBZ that sticks out like a sore thumb is unquantifiable feats. Feats and actions within DBZ don`t stack up to the basis of what is shown throughout comics, characters within comics have a straightforward showing of feats. DBZ is scaled and measured through a systematical and numerical methodical system in which the further sources that point to the facts lie within the handbooks just like in school you have the textbooks to further support and guide you, you have the handbooks which were left by the creator to further support and guide your understanding. Its evidently explained that within DBZ the main focus isn`t to prove one`s power and show crazy feats to advance the story like as shown in comics, the author instead has it further sourced within the handbooks themselves its up to us as the fans to interpret what he actually meant and by that the facts stand clear, I can tell that your someone who would rather see feats, well I respect that however there are more ways to finding out about information other than feats. Seeing is believing, right by your standards? We have to work with what we have and we are given. Also its not a wise or good thing to throw DBZ in along with the generalizations in regards to handbooks and their overall experiences that deal with contradiction or flawed shortcomings, you either support or point out a contradiction that contradicts with what Akira Toriyama said, implied and confirmed or you can keep yourself in denial to further benefit the ignorance which by definition is a lack of information.

You telling me how inaccurate _________ handbook is doesn't even argue with the point I made. Handbooks are supplementary knowledge - trading facts for after the fact explanations of X and Y. It's quite different to show me X character doing something, than reading X character can do something or Y attack was this powerful actually. Best example is the Spirit Bomb, that was thrown at Frieza like a grenade, completely uncontrolled as Goku & friends ducked for cover and let it explode - in the case of the one intended to be used against Vegeta in Saiyan Saga it was something akin to planet busting if I recall from the handbooks- here it was something more powerful being dropped on Frieza and visibly out of control - yet nothing happens outside the usual. Yet according to the handbooks, this attack would be more powerful than something that was already planet busting. School books aren't handbooks - we're not going to even entertain that idea.

According to McDuffie, Static Shock is more powerful than Magneto. That wasn't true at the time.

If you can`t disapprove why Cell is a solar system buster than you can`t argue against it, its as simple as that, opinions and biases won`t win you the argument or benefit of that doubt of the days of debate. One of the mods even made it more clear as they summed it up, guidebooks can be supplementary while feats are for consistency, handbooks and guidebooks can be included as long as it lines up with the feats in other words as long as it doesn`t contradict anything and you know what that means, it means that my point still stands strong in its validity. Here are the reasons why:

If I can't disprove it? That isn't how debating works. You're claiming Cell can bust a solar system, it's your initiative to prove it - the evidence that he and the rest of the cast long after surpassing him failed to perform such a showing would be the clear evidence against it. The fact the cast is still dying to attacks that simply destroyed the planet (I wouldn't have a clue why Kid Buu would hold back example, why nuke Earth instead of everything else too in the process to kill these characters if they're sporting durability well past planet busting). You're job is to prove how that isn't the case.

@neongamewave said:

1. Based on Power scaling, Power Levels, and Ki Control Cell would be able to blow up the Solar System which fits in with the fundamental laws of DBZ.

2. It was never contradicted, nothing disapproves it other than ignorance, opinions and bias. The handbooks line up with what Cell was saying and it is confirmed once again within the handbooks also ki control is confirmed by Akira Toriyama.

3. There are no inconsistencies that take away from what Cell was saying.

Ultimately nothing has disapproved the idea of him being able to blow up the solar system and if that`s the case then you cannot argue against it if there is no rebuttal to counter or combat the facts presented also this furthers my point about how feats don`t determine everything and are not the only methods to finding information. Feats are primary due to the fact that they are blatantly and evidently shown but they can be contradicted or taken out of context, Marvel and DC are great examples of this. Having multiple writers proves my point, unlike Dragon Ball which has Akira Toriyama as the one writer and creator, having handbooks, guidebooks, dialogue confirmed through the manga and having no contradictions proves that what Cell was saying is true. Think about it, if Frieza can blow up a planet that has 10x the gravity of earth with a PL of 530,000 in his first form and on top of that advance to his Final Form which is 120,000,0000 then what do you think that means? It means a lot considering the fact that it was confirmed within Daizenshuu 7 that it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets and Cell was millions times more powerful in all areas including and in particular knowingly destructive output capacity then wouldn`t you think he would be able to destroy a solar system? Via through the destruction of the sun which in many cases, DBZ have harnessed and focused their energy blasts to destroy objects that are larger in size to the blasts that they fire? Also Cell is a super computer he would know how much power it would take to destroy a solar system he was officially raised by a super computer and he can sense energy, his body is basically like an energy generator as well. I debated against many people like you before such as VinoVash1234 and Death Certificate being two examples of the many I have debated with who try to debunk DBZ and disapprove it with their bias, none of your arguments surprise me nor enlighten me on something refreshingly new.

I might respond to your post, however my response will be extremely and ridiculously long, I`m afraid it could end up like this.

1. Based off what? Arbitrary numbers the author created that honestly meant nothing outside how X character was more powerful than Y character? What does KI control prove here? And what power scaling? Roshi and Piccolo have destroyed the moon - Frieza destroyed Vegeta and Namek - Buu destroyed Earth - they never exceeded past planetary destruction with their attacks - so what is being scaled?
2. The contradiction lies in the total lack of evidence that the characters can actually use that kind of power and perform the action. If you can show how these characters release attacks that span a multi-light year perimeter, then you have an argument. Otherwise it's fan-fiction and hyperbole.
3. This is 2.
The problem is the Dragon Ball franchise is incredibly inconsistent despite for the most part, at least for the manga, being headed by one individual.
  • In Dragon Ball, characters like General Tao or Goku can be blown to bits by Grenades, cut by Swords or get hurt by rocks being thrown at them really hard. These characters were powerful enough to blow up the Moon, Tao tanked Goku's attack without issue.
  • In DBZ Frieza blows up planets, yet Namek's explosion has him lose half his head (Goku's attack was hitting the opposite side of his head), Kid Buu killed Gohan, Trunks and Goten with a planet buster - including blowing apart Kid Buu himself - all of them you could argue could blow up the planet and the character that launched the attack couldn't even tank it. Quite literally during Android Saga a large metal door prevented the Z-Fighters from entering Gero's base of operations as he activated 17 & 18, till Vegeta blew through it with a KI blast - these were the guys who flew through mountains like paper not too long ago.
It means Toriyama doesn't quite care about writing anything that makes sense, simply writing a story filled with action and suspense. Despite upping the ante - his characters never exceed past a certain point, despite becoming more powerful. He himself wouldn't likely have any idea how Goku would go about destroying a Solar System or even a basic understanding of the scale of planets or stars compared to the Earth in mind while writing this.
Even when we use you're numbers, they don't support it - that's because these numbers are unquantifiable. Power Levels as Abridged put it, are bull!@#$.
Being raised by a Super Computer doesn't make you a Super Computer - his learning curve was audio for the most part and it was more geared around doing what Gero wanted him to do, not learning about how large the Solar System is (something that none of the Z fighters can likely answer). That's a shame, because my arguments are a whole lot more original. So again, what feats support Cell is a solar system buster? And why are you not posting them?

It might actually be twice as long unfortunately but it will be heavily supported by factual information such as being sourced and referenced from the handbooks such as the Daizenshuus, many other multiple sources, guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guides, manga, videos and my own in depth analysis. The problem though is that I might be busy in the few upcoming days so this might not come to fruition but there is a good chance that it will.

King Kai`s planet has 10x the gravity of Earth and within the scan regarding Goku and King Kai when conversing about Planet Vegeta it is confirmed that Planet Vegeta has the same type of gravity, Frieza destroyed that planet with a PL of 530,000 and within his Final Form he would have a PL of 120,000,000 and Perfect Cell is million times more power than that so him being able to blow up a solar system is not really illogical or far fetched. Piccolo blows up the moon with a concentrated and small energy beam. Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of 139 and the characters became more powerful since then. The scans in regards to Frieza are from the manga and it clearly shows Frieza in his first form as further explained by the flashback also these events happen in the anime as well but obviously in a more cinematic way. Goku actually has enough firepower to bust the planet known as Jupiter and that point made no sense, did you realize that Goku was in SSJ1 form when Babidi measured him and that energy levels are proven to increase once the one who is being measured powers up or prepares to fire an attack? This is further explained within the canon special, Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return, Goku powers up and Vegeta`s brother Tarble has a scouter which instantly gets destroyed once Goku powers up. Goku was in a calm and relaxed state when he was in SSJ1 form during the Buu Saga during the time Babidi was measuring him, he still had a kili of 3,000 and it officially takes only 200-300 kili to blow up 1-2 planets. Tarble was confirmed in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Bulma mentions him and Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods is canon as well also it takes place after Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return. One thing I noticed interesting about DBZ is that the puzzle is starting to fit together at the right time even hinted with in regards to Screw Attack`s lying and bias video about Goku vs Superman. The facts and feats are there if you look hard enough, open up your mind to new ideas in connecting the dots. The creator and author`s idea or what he intended DBZ to be is becoming more clear now although it may not be perfect its still worth it.

Again, you're trying to use real math on arbitrary numbers. That doesn't make for a compelling argument when someone thousands of times weaker than Frieza destroyed the Moon. That's the glaring whole in your argument you keep ignoring - power levels mean nothing - nothing we can use logically. The scan that makes for the most convincing argument that it was first form frieza was the one involving him doing the pointing at Bardock, the latter scans are unnecessary. According to the numbers you showed me, Goku doesn't have the power to destroy Jupiter. The hair is on the pointy side, but the lack of electric current suggests he is in SSJ1 - so no argument there - it increases when he attacks? You might as well mention how Badibi isn't sporting a scouter, how do we know his method isn't more accurate? Regardless, what would be the point of showing me a scan that can't give us an accurate number towards Goku's power and the number provided lacks the power to destroy a gas giant according to the numbers you're providing me with?

12:18 - 13:30

If you can`t accept or try to reasonably understand Dragon Ball and its universe in regards to Power Levels, Power Scaling and Ki Control then don`t bother try to debate it or debate against it by using the many popular arguments of there no feats, ABC logic and that its inconsistent. There will either be a reasonable discussion or one that leads to nowhere, I obviously try to lean towards a reasonable discussion and try not to be or sound bias, I want to be fair and honest. I have read many comics that range from Marvel, DC, Valiant Comics, Dark Horse, Image Comics, IDW, BOOM Studios!, Dynamite Entertainment, Top Cow, Wildstorm, Vertigo and many more. I have read from all of those companies whether it be the primary series or not so primary as more so those series in particular opposition would be classified as the lesser known and I have read from a great range when it comes to manga as well. I read Shonen, Shojo, and Seinen as I have watched the animes in regards to many of the particular series regarding those genres within the concepts of manga. I haven`t read some comics in awhile mostly Marvel, I believe anime/manga is more interesting for me at this point in some areas although I am still well knowledgeable and I understand it very well in regards to comics, I`m not perfect and I`m happy to be honest about that, the Silver Surfer event regarding the Rulk scan was taken out of context and many misunderstood the point I was trying to make, however if I have offended you in anyway, shape or form then I greatly and sincerely apologize also I did not mean to disrespect the character of Silver Surfer or ridicule Jeph Loeb, if I came off that way then I apologize 100% and take responsibility for it. I can tell you that manga and comics operate very differently and I am sure many would agree with me in regards to my experience in reading from both, I can tell you that they are both different although they can be similar and have shared purposes. The way feats are shown, described, implied and sourced are very different. Comics have handbooks but many mangas I know have handbooks and guidebooks also the feats need to really be analyzed for comics you have to be careful to not take things out of context and there are many books containing feats for one character who has appeared in multiple titles, Marvel characters would be a good example and you have to really look into things, manga you have to work with what you have and you also have to try to understand the author`s point of view. Also thank you for the awesome debate so far, I commend you, you are very intelligent like I said and a great debater, and were here to have fun and a good time not to argue rapidly or bicker back and forth but to enlighten and share things with one another in the form of an debate in which we discuss things on an intellectually inspiring and positive level.

Goku going SSJ2 and blowing up a scouter isn't charging an attack. You can't understand made up numbers that don't mean anything outside X is stronger than Y, it's completely pointless and that is why they completely ceased to matter in the series. The popular argument? I thought I'm the one that pointed this out years ago.

1+1 = 13 That's more or less power levels in a nutshell. You can't convince me otherwise when they really don't mean anything substantial and can't quantified to mean anything because they don't.

I really don't care what you've read, it's about what you're writing. I'm not offended - I just don't know how legitimate you are as a poster here (as in, are your real intentions for friendly debate or something else) and dislike how much of the page becomes devoured by you're posts. Albeit you're doing a lot better by not quoting me - since that also cuts down in post length.

#50 Edited by NeonGameWave (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

You do know that once Goku destroyed the dimension he appeared in another location, notice how the dimension cracks which means Goku destroyed it doesn`t get more simpler than that. Also I provided the episodes for a reason so that you may understand the story and not take things out of context. Also notice how Goku receives back his power at 0:29 in which he is able to be transported beyond the dimension in which they rescued by a Supreme Kai and the dimension is totally gone once Goku fires the Kamehameha, can you prove that it was still there? Another dimension could be beyond the one Goku destroyed and broke through successfully but does it mean he didn`t destroy a dimension? No. He caused the dimension to shatter and then he was able to break through the barriers surrounding it thus enabling him to teleport beyond it, he shattered that dimension and proceeded to another and that`s still a lot of power to consider since that`s base form not SSJ4.

You clearly don`t understand DBZ and how it works, which is why I posted the links in the first place. No need to give attitude.

god_spawn: Feats are based more on consistency than handbooks. Guidebooks and handbooks would be more supplemental and only if they go along with said feats and the only reason they MIGHT be considered is because of a general idea, but not exactly the specifics.

Handbooks help support feats and are supplementary, but it doesn`t mean that they are less credible and Akira`s handbooks go along with the feats presented within Dragon Ball just as god_spawn said they can go along with feats which is explained in Cell`s case, the many feats regarding the methodical systems of power levels and scaling proves this point nothing contradicts what Cell says and the handbooks are there to supply the information to further the overall idea it doesn`t mean they are inaccurate and to say that another handbook accounts for all doesn`t make any sense its like your generalizing the DBZ handbooks by using others as an inaccurate example. There are no contradictions for Cell`s statement unlike the other handbooks you mentioned, so you cannot argue it or against it by saying feats, feats and feats. Handbooks are very important, Akira wrote the handbooks to give a better idea of why certain things occurred in DBZ, this is why I posted the links also because of your arguments, you clearly do not know anything about DBZ in regards to the fundamentals and etc. Its Akira`s characters and its his world, of course he is going to provide a general idea in regards to why certain things happen your just being stubborn, I only mentioned textbook and school as an example, your stretching it beyond what I truly meant. Author`s words and official information published>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your opinion and bias. No contradiction, no argumentation.

1. Numbers that apply to the universe of Dragon Ball, you clearly do not know anything about this universe. Ki Control helps the characters focus their attacks or ki blasts, also Akira also mentioned Ki Size within the Daizenshuus in which it was also an important factor, Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta which has 10x the gravity of Earth, both Piccolo and Roshi destroyed the moon with low Power Levels during the beginning of the series, Kid Buu destroyed multiple worlds and as Goku could sense energy it is stated that he has enough power to destroy 10 planets. The level of power and progression is being scaled, power levels distinguish characters in regards to how powerful they are or can be and it relates to ki as well.

2. Hyperbole and fan-fiction? So I guess Piccolo`s or Raditz`s ki attacks don`t mean anything, right? This is why I recommended this thread and I suggest you check it out instead of being stubborn, this link describes and explains everything but your being too stubborn to acknowledge anything, I don`t believe you are a fan of DBZ. http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/4055-46445/forums/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters-679193/

3. Ki attributes and contributes to everything. I don`t need to waste my time in explaining the obvious when it is so obviously clear. As explained here, the many things you pointed out here do not make sense at all. This explains everything. Now if you want to understand DBZ then your going to have to check out these threads instead of being stubborn and in denial.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/goku-vs-superman-has-changed-753446/

I already proved why he is a Solar System Buster and did you forget that Cell can sense energy as he also stores energy as well? Cell is very intelligent and he even said himself that he gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system. Your just going to ignore because you dismiss DBZ logic, I suppose. Its Akira`s story, characters and world not yours, if he didn`t care then why would he elaborate on throughout the handbooks, guidebooks and etc? The PL, and PS systems are there for a reason.

What? How does that exactly contradict with what I was saying? Arbitrary numbers? Goku in SSJ1 form not powered nor low in number, these are the principles of DBZ and these numbers are there to explain the methods regarding power in association to the characters. The other scans in regards to Frieza show us more of the history of what truly happened. Babidi used a power meter which is just as good as a scouter, what are you talking about? He measured Goku in SSJ1 form, hair on the pointy side? Lol. You forget the fact that within the guidebooks and handbooks that it takes 200-300 kili to destroy 1-2 planets, Goku in SSJ1 form powered down had 3,000 through the measurements of kili and the Power Meter is successful in determining these things but your just going to deny it and favor Marvel/DC over this although they themselves don`t provide a lot of info for certain characters but only statements and status implications. Goku in SSJ3 would have a dramatic increase in power with 3,000 kili he would be able to destroy 10-15 planets and that is SSJ1 form not SSJ3 or SSJ4.

Are you ignoring or skimming through what I actually said? I said charging an attack or powering up either of the two. You can accept it or deny but it doesn`t change the facts and its not simply ABC logic as you are describing it.

Wrong. There`s an actual system of how it is applied also the author had them there for a reason, they stopped being used because the villains could not measure the DBZ Fighters and their special techniques in regards to multipliers.

Strange. Legitimate? If you are complaining about the length of my posts then you shouldn`t debate, if you don`t understand DBZ and don`t like how things are done then don`t enter a DBZ thread its that simple, I don`t think there is any point to this debate since you won`t accept how feats are done and established by the author and creator, like I said I have debated many people like you before and the questionability could lie with you in regards to what your intentions are when it comes to debating and what it truly means, Death Certificate and VinoVash1234 are good examples of individuals who share your disbeliefs and biases.