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#51 Posted by jashro44 (21532 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: So? If he got kicked in the face by Batman and felt it....then when Superman gave him a haymaker he should've died...but he was a o k .....don't you see the Loeb Force in that?

Darkseid had no powers at all in that story line. He had lost his invulnerability and his strength. He wasn't just mildly depowered, he was completely powerless at the time.

#52 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12143 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: completely powerless and still able take punches from Superman......

#53 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised at the attention the IDW TMNT get on the Vine. I thought they only had a small cult following on here.

It helps when pretty much every issue that comes out gets a 5 star rating and is featured on the front page of this site. lol. I'm not saying they don't deserve it though. It's my favorite current ongoing series in comics right now. It's not just for nostalgia reasons either (maybe a little), it's a really well written and well illustrated series.

#54 Edited by jashro44 (21532 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

@jashro44: completely powerless and still able take punches from Superman......

Superman tends to hold back. He probably didn't hit him with full force.

Here are the scans which explain the context:

Notice how a frustrated darkseid can barely destroy a stone statue.

#55 Edited by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

@lvenger said:

@wyldsong Not to badmouth a creative team on a title I dearly love but Santoloucho's statement about Splinter being as skilled as Batman is hogwash. There's no on panel feats to back this up nor has Santoloucho worked on Batman. Plus he's a TMNT fanboy in that regard so working on a title he loves may skew his judgement somewhat.

Yea, he could be like Leob or something who thinks he knows Batman's capabilities but has him one shotting mind controlled Shiva and kicking Darkseid in the face. Him saying Splinter is as good as Batman is about as credible as that IMO, no insult to Santoloucho

Well, the big thing I am taking away from all of this is what people perceive the man to be, rather than what may or may not be the reality, which we just do not know. So again, I'll have to say that actually working on a Batman title and having knowledge on him are two different things. For example, we have people here saying Batman is far superior to Splinter and Shredder...yet I am fairly positive no one on this thread has worked on a Batman or a TMNT comic, but are making judgment calls on the situation at hand.

As for showings, I generally agree with that consensus, because Batman has somewhere in the realm of 10000+ appearances, Moon Knight nearly 700-800+, with Splinter in roughly 21 appearances and Shredder in the realm of 15 appearances in this new series. We have far more to work with Batman and Moon Knight. Shredder and Splinter are the number one guys in TMNT lore, and in this new series, have one or two lifetimes of experience thanks to the reincarnation angle. They do have quality showings, but are lacking the quantity to effectively gauge their abilities in a lot of scenarios (as I stated in my earlier post).

I just don't agree with dismissing his statements due to what the situation is perceived to be, when we don't know the reality. Sure, we can theorize that his views are skewed due to being a writer on TMNT, BUT he could also have every Batman appearance known to mankind in a box in his basement right next to some chains mounted to a wall with a gimp mask laying nearby...we just don't know=P

Basically, I am just trying to throw out some food for thought, rather than give in to a quick dismissal.

Regardless, this is getting a bit off topic, and my stance hasn't changed. If you take into account Santo's comments, Shredder and Splinter can take it. If not, then Bat's and Moon Knight take it due to having more quantifiable feats to pull from and use. The fan in me roots for the former option, the realist in me, the latter option. I'll state both to appease both sides and remain a unified whole=)

#56 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: That's a very accurate summary, IMO, and the reason I made this battle. I think the feats they've shown (while not in the triple digits yet) have all been impressive enough to this point to make me think they at least stand a chance. I'm not saying I think they will win, but I think there are enough feats from Splinter and Shredder that there is some room for debate, even if it ends in the IDW team losing.

#57 Posted by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Well, the big thing I am taking away from all of this is what people perceive the man to be, rather than what may or may not be the reality, which we just do not know. So again, I'll have to say that actually working on a Batman title and having knowledge on him are two different things. For example, we have people here saying Batman is far superior to Splinter and Shredder...yet I am fairly positive no one on this thread has worked on a Batman or a TMNT comic, but are making judgment calls on the situation at hand.

As for showings, I generally agree with that consensus, because Batman has somewhere in the realm of 10000+ appearances, Moon Knight nearly 700-800+, with Splinter in roughly 21 appearances and Shredder in the realm of 15 appearances in this new series. We have far more to work with Batman and Moon Knight. Shredder and Splinter are the number one guys in TMNT lore, and in this new series, have one or two lifetimes of experience thanks to the reincarnation angle. They do have quality showings, but are lacking the quantity to effectively gauge their abilities in a lot of scenarios (as I stated in my earlier post).

I just don't agree with dismissing his statements due to what the situation is perceived to be, when we don't know the reality. Sure, we can theorize that his views are skewed due to being a writer on TMNT, BUT he could also have every Batman appearance known to mankind in a box in his basement right next to some chains mounted to a wall with a gimp mask laying nearby...we just don't know=P

Basically, I am just trying to throw out some food for thought, rather than give in to a quick dismissal.

Regardless, this is getting a bit off topic, and my stance hasn't changed. If you take into account Santo's comments, Shredder and Splinter can take it. If not, then Bat's and Moon Knight take it due to having more quantifiable feats to pull from and use. The fan in me roots for the former option, the realist in me, the latter option. I'll state both to appease both sides and remain a unified whole=)

You really can't rely on author statements that rely on a preemptive judgement of the characters. I can safely say that Santo doesn't sit on forums like these and pour through Batman's collection of feats on the web like we do. And it's highly unlikely he's a proper Batman collecter and reader. Ergo those of us who are knowledgeable debaters and have knowledge of both characters can safely say which feats, arguments and statements are valid. And Santo's comments on Splinter being near Batman's skill aren't valid at all in the context of the number of feats IDW Splinter has along with the limited knowledge Santo has with Batman's feats. He doesn't have the working knowledge that we have on here to go on. Realistically, the team with the more skill showings and is better armoured than the other time is far more likely to take a 7/10 victory at the least. Splinter may be the most skilled but he's the weakest link given his lack of protective clothing which can be preyed upon by Batman or Moon Knight. Whichever one takes Splinter down, the other can hold off Shredder long enough to make this a victory for Team 2 by a noticeable margin.

#58 Posted by RogueShadow (10636 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably... maybe... Not sure.

#59 Edited by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

You really can't rely on author statements that rely on a preemptive judgement of the characters. I can safely say that Santo doesn't sit on forums like these and pour through Batman's collection of feats on the web like we do. And it's highly unlikely he's a proper Batman collecter and reader. Ergo those of us who are knowledgeable debaters and have knowledge of both characters can safely say which feats, arguments and statements are valid. And Santo's comments on Splinter being near Batman's skill aren't valid at all in the context of the number of feats IDW Splinter has along with the limited knowledge Santo has with Batman's feats. He doesn't have the working knowledge that we have on here to go on. Realistically, the team with the more skill showings and is better armoured than the other time is far more likely to take a 7/10 victory at the least. Splinter may be the most skilled but he's the weakest link given his lack of protective clothing which can be preyed upon by Batman or Moon Knight. Whichever one takes Splinter down, the other can hold off Shredder long enough to make this a victory for Team 2 by a noticeable margin.

Let's dial this back a bit. It sounds like you are approaching this as me stating that it is a reason for the win. I'm not. I've already stated the realist in me will go based off of the feats (even though the fan in me screams the opposite -- I'm not going to lie, I will be honest about it, I am a fan of the series and prefer it over the billions of Batman titles, but I can produce a multitude of statements on my part in regards to the realist side of me). I still think it is silly to be dismissive of his statements, because regardless of what you feel you can safely say, unless you know the man, and can produce him on your speed dial, I am sorry, I still have to say that you just don't know. You can't safely say anything unless you know the mind of the man, and more than likely, none of us have an intimate enough relationship with the man to truly say. I am fairly certain none of us know just what his exact knowledge base is on any given subject, and unless we have some psychics in crowd around here, then all people are doing are making basic judgments on the man and the situation at hand.

We as fans can say anything we want, it doesn't mean we know the reality of the situation.

No offense is meant to you by that on my part, but it is the truth. As for his comments being valid based on the number showings: He is stating his intent on the characters and series as a whole. Give the series some time, and we'll see what he produces, that is unless you have some contradictory and solid proof from the series as a whole that doesn't involve a "lack of" type argument. Now, we don't have to agree on the situation at hand, because it is fairly obvious that on this particular issue, we definitely do not. And I am fine with that, I just don't understand people being dismissive over the man and his comments without knowing the reality of the situation. And that is it in a nutshell.

Until then, I've already agreed with you on the quantity of the showings factor. You don't have to debate down Splinter and Shredder with me, as you can see my statements in regards to the matter. Yeah, I'm also throwing out the fan angle, but I'm not using it as a serious debate. Just stating my thoughts on the matter at hand as thoughts are formulated in this swiss cheese brain of mine.

#60 Posted by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Let's dial this back a bit. It sounds like you are approaching this as me stating that it is a reason for the win. I'm not. I've already stated the realist in me will go based off of the feats (even though the fan in me screams the opposite -- I'm not going to lie, I will be honest about it, I am a fan of the series and prefer it over the billions of Batman titles, but I can produce a multitude of statements on my part in regards to the realist side of me). I still think it is silly to be dismissive of his statements, because regardless of what you feel you can safely say, unless you know the man, and can produce him on your speed dial, I am sorry, I still have to say that you just don't know. You can't safely say anything unless you know the mind of the man, and more than likely, none of us have an intimate enough relationship with the man to truly say. I am fairly certain none of us know just what his exact knowledge base is on any given subject, and unless we have some psychics in crowd around here, then all people are doing are making basic judgments on the man and the situation at hand.

We as fans can say anything we want, it doesn't mean we know the reality of the situation.

No offense is meant to you by that on my part, but it is the truth. As for his comments being valid based on the number showings: He is stating his intent on the characters and series as a whole. Give the series some time, and we'll see what he produces, that is unless you have some contradictory and solid proof from the series as a whole that doesn't involve a "lack of" type argument. Now, we don't have to agree on the situation at hand, because it is fairly obvious that on this particular issue, we definitely do not. And I am fine with that, I just don't understand people being dismissive over the man and his comments without knowing the reality of the situation. And that is it in a nutshell.

Until then, I've already agreed with you on the quantity of the showings factor. You don't have to debate down Splinter and Shredder with me, as you can see my statements in regards to the matter. Yeah, I'm also throwing out the fan angle, but I'm not using it as a serious debate. Just stating my thoughts on the matter at hand as thoughts are formulated in this swiss cheese brain of mine.

No offense taken and I wasn't approaching that last comment by you as a reason presented by you for Team 1 winning. What I was dealing with was Santo's comment itself, not your perceptions on it. Regardless of whether one knows the mind of the creators or not, they cannot pull statements of character's capabilities out of thin air without the knowledge or feats to back it up. We on here have access to numerous Batman feats and experts on him so it's safe to say for us that we can make a judgement on whether Santo's claim has any credence to it. And for me, it doesn't given the feats Batman has shown in the fights he's been in along with that CD he gave to Cassie of him teaching her every known fighting style plus multiple flat out statements that he knows over 400 ways to disable a man and knowledge of deadlier moves and his fighting styles. When feats like this are presented numerous times in Batman's career, it becomes clear that Santo's comments hold no basis.

They are based on his limited experience with Batman comparing that to his TMNT work which do not pan out based on what the TMNT have shown to do. That is why I dismiss Santo's comment, because he has no basis to claim it upon and no proof to back it up. This is the nutshell of what makes a good argument. You can't use fan preference in the slightest in fights. I massively prefer Superman to Galactus but do you see me using my preference for one character as a reason for beating another? No and you can't do the same with closer fights. Only feats and arguments presented matter.

#61 Posted by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

No offense taken and I wasn't approaching that last comment by you as a reason presented by you for Team 1 winning. What I was dealing with was Santo's comment itself, not your perceptions on it. Regardless of whether one knows the mind of the creators or not, they cannot pull statements of character's capabilities out of thin air without the knowledge or feats to back it up. We on here have access to numerous Batman feats and experts on him so it's safe to say for us that we can make a judgement on whether Santo's claim has any credence to it. And for me, it doesn't given the feats Batman has shown in the fights he's been in along with that CD he gave to Cassie of him teaching her every known fighting style plus multiple flat out statements that he knows over 400 ways to disable a man and knowledge of deadlier moves and his fighting styles. When feats like this are presented numerous times in Batman's career, it becomes clear that Santo's comments hold no basis.

They are based on his limited experience with Batman comparing that to his TMNT work which do not pan out based on what the TMNT have shown to do. That is why I dismiss Santo's comment, because he has no basis to claim it upon and no proof to back it up. This is the nutshell of what makes a good argument. You can't use fan preference in the slightest in fights. I massively prefer Superman to Galactus but do you see me using my preference for one character as a reason for beating another? No and you can't do the same with closer fights. Only feats and arguments presented matter.

Basically we are arguing semantics on one point here, and are heading into the area of the skipping record, repeating one line over and over. We don't agree on Santo's statement (especially the knowledge factor, since again, we don't know the depth of his actual Batman knowledge), but we agree that Shredder and Splinter are lacking in the quantity department (though they do have quality showings, just not the number of Bats and MK).

As for using preference, heck yeah I'll use preference, but I'll also tell you I am doing so with no real basis behind it, that's why I stated a reason for both sides winning here, the realist side and the fan side=)

#62 Edited by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Fair enough on your end then. To question it more would be fruitless and derail the thread IMO.