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#1 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

Splinter and Shredder

VS

Batman and Moon Knight

Rules

  • Morals are on
  • No prep, random Encounter
  • Win by last team with someone standing

Gear

  • Splinter has a bo staff
  • Shredder has his armor
  • Moon Knight has his suit (without carbonadium), and his staff
  • Moon Knight doesn't have lunar powers
  • Batman has his suit, 2 batarangs, and no other equipment

Location

Generic city street at night. Street lights are on. There is plenty of cover with parked cars between the two teams. Start 30 yards apart.

#3 Posted by jashro44 (21603 posts) - - Show Bio

I need feats for shredder and splinter personally. IIRC the creator of TMNT did state Splinter is equal to batman in terms of skill. Not sure if thats true or not.

#4 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

*blushes*

#5 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Moon Knight take this.

#6 Posted by patrat18 (9754 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and moon knight stomp.

#7 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Do not do that. It is inbox spamming. Tag a few people if you must, but nearly two dozen at once is too much.

Moderator
#8 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

Splinter and Shredder win with PIS off but with on Batman rolfstompsolo's with out equipment or batsuit.

#9 Posted by batmannflash (6219 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I actually just started a respect page for him. Here's the link. Master Splinter Respect Thread.

He once owned all four turtles over the course of an entire issue. He was wearing a mask and a robe so they thought he was a villain. He switched between a bunch of different fighting styles.

He had to basically run an entire foot soldier gauntlet while he was captured by shredder. He had to fight a giant foot soldier, a whole army of foot soldiers twice, karai, and alopex, and finally fighting shredder. Shredder had him beat, but it was after he's spent a long time fighting a bunch of other opponents.

He used a katana to cut an arrow down in mid-flight shot by Karai. Karai is starting to have some very impressive archery feats that look like they should be in a hawkeye of green arrow comic too.

I also have a Shredder respect page that I just started as well if you need to check him out. Shredder Respect Thread

#11 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Do not do that. It is inbox spamming. Tag a few people if you must, but nearly two dozen at once is too much.

Noted. I thought that was what the call out book was for and did not intend to spam anyone who would not be interested. Sorry.

#12 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: You're not the first person to think this would be a good idea. We had a user called JackKnight a while back who did precisely the same thing. He found out who'd be interested in the kinds of threads he wanted to make, and then tagged about 30 of them at a time in every thread he made. It was all fine for a while because those people did express an interest in being tagged, but then it happened in so many threads that they started complaining about cluttered inboxes. And that was just one user doing it. What do you think will happen when a dozen different users start tagging two dozen people each in every thread they make because aforementioned people signed up for it in the "Callout Phonebook"? As far as I'm concerned, I'm just nipping the problem in the bud. You can tag 3 or 4 people at most. Two dozen at once is not acceptable.

Moderator
#14 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: With all due respect your honor...that's reaaally unreasonable. My system is MUCH more organized than JackKnight's mindless tagging spree. With the Callout Phonebook, people actually have a choice. If someone gets tired of being notified, he simply takes his name out of the phonebook. Problem solved.

Didn't think of that, did you? Please...don't let past-experiences influence your judgement as a mod. <3

#15 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: I did think of that, funnily enough. Would you like to know what else I thought about? I thought about the fact that the rate of addition to the Callout Phonebook will invariably exceed the rate of subtraction at any point of time, particularly because it's a pinned thread and thus receives a steady amount of traffic. I thought about the fact that removing a name is not going to stop someone from tagging another user to a thread based on a vague remembrance of that user's familiarity with a character or whatever. I thought about the fact that I, personally, have woken up on several occasions with 15 different PM's for threads I had no interest in on account of inbox spamming. And I thought about the fact that the organization of your system just makes it much easier for inbox spamming to happen. All the details, characters and users are right there for anyone to see. I thought about these things because I have been on CV's battle forum for close to three years now. I know how it works, and I know that certain patterns of behavior do not vary.

So it's all well and good to try and tell me that past experiences are "influencing my judgement", but at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to moderate the mess, not you. This isn't a flexible position. You are not allowed to tag dozens of people in a post every time you make a thread. You can tag a few people, certainly. I think this is a perfectly reasonable demand. If you have an issue with that, feel free to PM the other battle mods (god_spawn, Vance Astro and Deranged_Midget) and ask them if they disagree.

Moderator
#16 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

^I'm laughing so hard at this right now.

the fact that removing a name is not going to stop someone from tagging another user to a thread based on a vague remembrance of that user's familiarity with a character or whatever.

The fact is: People just copy-and-paste the call-outs directly from my thread. "Vague remembrance or whatever"? This happens in ANY battle thread, not caused by my Phonebook at all. Oh, the judicial injudiciousness....I'm going to bed.

#17 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

^I'm laughing so hard at this right now.

the fact that removing a name is not going to stop someone from tagging another user to a thread based on a vague remembrance of that user's familiarity with a character or whatever.

The fact is: People just copy-and-paste the call-outs directly from my thread. "Vague remembrance or whatever"? This happens in ANY battle thread, not caused by my Phonebook at all. Oh, the judicial injudiciousness....I'm going to bed.

Sure, it can happen in any battle thread, and when it does, it's not allowed. Your Phonebook just makes it easier to happen. People just copy-pasting the callouts from your thread is precisely my point. I don't really care how it happens or where it happens or why it happens. Inbox spamming is not going to be tolerated. Laugh or lament the alleged lack of judgement all you want; it's still not going to be allowed, and if you have a problem: you know how to send PM's to the other battle mods.

Sleep tight.

Moderator
#18 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Back on topic: Batman and Moon Knight win.

Moderator
#19 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really care how it happens or where it happens or why it happens.

—CitizenBane

Spoken like a true moderator. Goodnight ^_^ <3

#20 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5465 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and moon Knight.

#21 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really care how it happens or where it happens or why it happens.

—CitizenBane

Spoken like a true moderator. Goodnight ^_^ <3

Nah. Here's what moderators sound like.

Jokergeist receives an official warning to go along with the previous one he got for name-calling from GS. One more and he's going to be in trouble.

-CitizenBane

I don't intend to derail this thread any further. And for your own good, I'd suggest you follow suit.

Moderator
#22 Posted by Cooldes (4097 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: wow... a warning because you guys had a small disagreement..? that's harsh...

also, publicly posting that he now has a warning and a previous warning beforehand was also really uncalled for.. like seriously.

(if i was a mod i'd be doing the same thing though lol)

#23 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12171 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, that was eventful. Hope everybody scraped all the chips off their shoulders so we can debate.....

Batman outstrips either one of his opponents in skill, speed and strength...Author/Writer related statements have little bearing if they aren't backed up by on panel evidence, since that's what's we base everything else on to use as evidence why would someone who's never even written a Batman comic before have the credibility to compare another character to him? Anyway, Moonknight while a ways away from Batman is still capable of handling himself in this scenario. Splinter is a bit of a weak link since he is the only one here without armor which makes his damage threshold considerably less than everyone else's.

Team 2 wins 7/10

#24 Posted by Friorey (109 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Moonknight should win this.

#25 Posted by dondave (37362 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Moon Knight

#26 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5187 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd give it to team 2.

Team 1 has decent experience but Team 2's combined skills & Moon Knights incredibly high pain tolerance should win this for em.

#27 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

I figured Batman would take most of the wins, but I thought with Shredder's armor and morals (lack of), he could be the strongest one. His armor is covered in pointy ends that he can use to shred through Batman and Moon Knight.

Also, although Batman is probably the most skilled fighter, Shredder and Splinter can't be too much behind. Splinter's on his second lifetime of being a master martial artist, and Shredder's on his third at this point.

I'm not saying they win every time, but I still think it would be a good fight.

#28 Posted by Rick_Grayson (776 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always been of the opinion that, regardless what the TMNT writers may believe, Batman would solo Shredder and Splinter together about 7.5 / 10. I also feel the Turtles are massively outclassed by the Robins, to the point where I would say Damian & Tim vs all 4 should get about 7 / 10.

So obviously, Batman & Moon Knight wipe the floor here.

#29 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Moon Knight.

#30 Edited by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

Feat wise, Batman and Moon Knight, hate to say it, have Shredder and Splinter beat. It is hard to fully judge the quality of their showings against B&M, since it is hard to compare the TMNT foes with a lack of history and context versus the B&M histories in their respective universes.

That being said, we also have the writers intent on this, and while people may argue the whole intent versus actual showings thing, I have to think an outright statement by the writer on the subject has to count for something (since I see that argued quite a bit on these boards in regards to the rankings of fighters in the various universes -- but I won't argue too hard against it being a huge proponent of actual feats being used).

So, if we go based on sheer feats, the team of Bat's and Moon Knight edge out Shredder and Splinter. We add in writer intent, Batman outclasses Moon Knight, and you have 2 characters at Bat's skill level, and you factor in the fact that B&M are without their better equipment, I'd go with Shredder and Splinter.

When I get some time, I'll go through my books and see if I can come up with some scans to better back a Splinter/Shredder position on this.

#31 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though it's been pretty one sided in favor of Batman being too much for Splinter and Shredder (which is kind of the response I expected on this site), I have to say that I'm glad to see most people taking Splinter and Shredder serious enough for this to be considered a good fight. Even the people that think Batman can solo, are at least acknowledging that Splinter and Shredder are not a walk in the park. This is a good testament to IDW's current series, because if I would have posted this battle a year ago, there would have been a thousand angry Batman fans screaming at anyone who would think Batman could possibly lose here. It's nice to see the two top TMNT characters starting to get respect they deserve as well as Batman fans being open minded to this battle. If this thread continues, I hope this thread keeps this same pace, because it's a refreshing change to be able to see posts where some people think Batman loses in a street level match, without it becoming a hate-filled argument instead of a debate. Thanks for contributing to this thread respectfully.

#32 Posted by jashro44 (21603 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Feat wise, Batman and Moon Knight, hate to say it, have Shredder and Splinter beat. It is hard to fully judge the quality of their showings against B&M, since it is hard to compare the TMNT foes with a lack of history and context versus the B&M histories in their respective universes.

That being said, we also have the writers intent on this, and while people may argue the whole intent versus actual showings thing, I have to think an outright statement by the writer on the subject has to count for something (since I see that argued quite a bit on these boards in regards to the rankings of fighters in the various universes -- but I won't argue too hard against it being a huge proponent of actual feats being used).

So, if we go based on sheer feats, the team of Bat's and Moon Knight edge out Shredder and Splinter. We add in writer intent, Batman outclasses Moon Knight, and you have 2 characters at Bat's skill level, and you factor in the fact that B&M are without their better equipment, I'd go with Shredder and Splinter.

When I get some time, I'll go through my books and see if I can come up with some scans to better back a Splinter/Shredder position on this.

I agree with this.

#33 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (5583 posts) - - Show Bio

Nobody checked out the Splinter respect thread linked above?

#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

I think once the IDW TMNT start getting more feats, they'll be considered great challenges for Marvel and DC street levelers.

#35 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: They do have some pretty great feats if you've kept up since the beginning. They obviously don't have as many feats as the big two yet, but the majority of what they've done has been very impressive.

#36 Edited by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Oh, I've been with the TMNT since issue 5. They have some awesome feats, but they are slightly inferior to those of Marvel and DC street levelers. I see that changing with time.

#37 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@wolverine08: They do have some pretty great feats if you've kept up since the beginning. They obviously don't have as many feats as the big two yet, but the majority of what they've done has been very impressive.

I have this same problem with Ultimate Comics. They do not have as many feats, but the quality is as good. Haters going to hate.

#38 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12171 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

That being said, we also have the writers intent on this, and while people may argue the whole intent versus actual showings thing, I have to think an outright statement by the writer on the subject has to count for something (since I see that argued quite a bit on these boards in regards to the rankings of fighters in the various universes -- but I won't argue too hard against it being a huge proponent of actual feats being used).

Considering the fact that he's never written Batman in his entire career, I wouldn't take his word for it.

#39 Edited by Wyldsong (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

@wyldsong said:

That being said, we also have the writers intent on this, and while people may argue the whole intent versus actual showings thing, I have to think an outright statement by the writer on the subject has to count for something (since I see that argued quite a bit on these boards in regards to the rankings of fighters in the various universes -- but I won't argue too hard against it being a huge proponent of actual feats being used).

Considering the fact that he's never written Batman in his entire career, I wouldn't take his word for it.

Doesn't mean he hasn't read or isn't knowledgeable on Batman. I know many people that haven't written Bat's and have a great deal of knowledge on him. I just don't see being a Batman writer as a prerequisite to make a judgment like that. Regardless, I already stated I wouldn't argue too hard against the premise, since I am huge on the idea of using actual feats=)

#40 Posted by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Oh, I've been with the TMNT since issue 5. They have some awesome feats, but they are slightly inferior to those of Marvel and DC street levelers. I see that changing with time.

You haven't missed much then. I'm just thinking of when Splinter owned the four turtles for an entire issue and also when he ran a whole gauntlet of pretty much the entirety of the foot clan including Alopex, Karai, and a gigantic foot soldier on steroids.

The feat I think of for Shredder, is from his original life as Takeshi Tatsuo before he reincarnated as Oroku Saki, and then later as Shredder. He defeated legions of samurai warriors on his own. He had his leg cut off and he was still able to win. That was really impressive.

#41 Posted by Lvenger (19854 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, that was eventful. Hope everybody scraped all the chips off their shoulders so we can debate.....

Batman outstrips either one of his opponents in skill, speed and strength...Author/Writer related statements have little bearing if they aren't backed up by on panel evidence, since that's what's we base everything else on to use as evidence why would someone who's never even written a Batman comic before have the credibility to compare another character to him? Anyway, Moonknight while a ways away from Batman is still capable of handling himself in this scenario. Splinter is a bit of a weak link since he is the only one here without armor which makes his damage threshold considerably less than everyone else's.

Team 2 wins 7/10

This sums up my views nicely. Even though I'd rate Splinter as being a bit more skilled than Shredder, his lack of armour is his downfall against an overall more skilled and armoured team.

@wyldsong Not to badmouth a creative team on a title I dearly love but Santoloucho's statement about Splinter being as skilled as Batman is hogwash. There's no on panel feats to back this up nor has Santoloucho worked on Batman. Plus he's a TMNT fanboy in that regard so working on a title he loves may skew his judgement somewhat.

#42 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

I don't think we should completely discount Santoloucho's (such a long damn name!) claim because Shredder and Splinter are probably highly skilled, but yes, we do need some more on panel evidence before it can be taken more seriously.

#43 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12171 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wyldsong Not to badmouth a creative team on a title I dearly love but Santoloucho's statement about Splinter being as skilled as Batman is hogwash. There's no on panel feats to back this up nor has Santoloucho worked on Batman. Plus he's a TMNT fanboy in that regard so working on a title he loves may skew his judgement somewhat.

Yea, he could be like Leob or something who thinks he knows Batman's capabilities but has him one shotting mind controlled Shiva and kicking Darkseid in the face. Him saying Splinter is as good as Batman is about as credible as that IMO, no insult to Santoloucho

#44 Posted by 616Vulture (1470 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Knight and Batman take this 7/10

#45 Posted by jashro44 (21603 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wyldsong Not to badmouth a creative team on a title I dearly love but Santoloucho's statement about Splinter being as skilled as Batman is hogwash. There's no on panel feats to back this up nor has Santoloucho worked on Batman. Plus he's a TMNT fanboy in that regard so working on a title he loves may skew his judgement somewhat.

Yea, he could be like Leob or something who thinks he knows Batman's capabilities but has him one shotting mind controlled Shiva and kicking Darkseid in the face

Darkseid was depowered when batman kicked him in the face.

#46 Posted by Lvenger (19854 posts) - - Show Bio

Yea, he could be like Leob or something who thinks he knows Batman's capabilities but has him one shotting mind controlled Shiva and kicking Darkseid in the face

Ugh I don't want there to be a Santoloucho force too. That would be stupid and just plain long to say :P

@wolverine08 said:I don't think we should completely discount Santoloucho's (such a long damn name!) claim because Shredder and Splinter are probably highly skilled, but yes, we do need some more on panel evidence before it can be taken more seriously.

We've done this dance before so we'll end up disagreeing but you know my stance. He hasn't worked on Batman, is a big TMNT fan and hasn't provided along with the rest of the creative team feats to back up this claim. If the claim gets better feats, then I'll consider it.

#47 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wyldsong Not to badmouth a creative team on a title I dearly love but Santoloucho's statement about Splinter being as skilled as Batman is hogwash. There's no on panel feats to back this up nor has Santoloucho worked on Batman. Plus he's a TMNT fanboy in that regard so working on a title he loves may skew his judgement somewhat.

Yea, he could be like Leob or something who thinks he knows Batman's capabilities but has him one shotting mind controlled Shiva and kicking Darkseid in the face

Loeb Force!

#48 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12171 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: So? If he got kicked in the face by Batman and felt it....then when Superman gave him a haymaker he should've died...but he was a o k .....don't you see the Loeb Force in that?

#49 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised at the attention the IDW TMNT get on the Vine. I thought they only had a small cult following on here.

#50 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12171 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Ugh I don't want there to be a Santoloucho force too. That would be stupid and just plain long to say :P

lol I know right...I think I'm just gonna call him Santo from now on and hope people know what I'm talking about.

Loeb Force!