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#1 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

-Wolverine does not have adamantium 
-Wolverine is unarmed, Cap has his shield. 
-Morals are on. Let's say that both of them have been led to believe that the other has 'turned to the dark side'. No amount of banter during the fight will let either one realize that they're still on the same side. 
-Standard rules for victory apply (KO, death, incapacitation, ect). 
-Fight takes place in the middle of the street in Manhattan at dusk, unpopulated. There are still cars around though.
-Fighters start 50 yards apart, within sight of each other. 
 
 
If you have any discrepancies about these rules (you think I gave one character too much of an advantage) let me know.

#2 Posted by MarvelJackAss433 (12238 posts) - - Show Bio

-Grabs popcorn-

#3 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@MarvelJackAss433 said:
" -Grabs popcorn- "
I get the feeling I'm slightly outclassed here. Logan apparently beat Cap once in scans Spidey has, and I think Spidey has surpassed me in debating skill. 
But this one's still going to be really fun!
#4 Posted by Andferne (38808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus said:
" Logan apparently beat Cap once in scans Spidey has "
Same can be said the other way around.
 
But good luck. I know who I am rooting for. =)
#5 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus said:
" @MarvelJackAss433 said:
" -Grabs popcorn- "
I get the feeling I'm slightly outclassed here. Logan apparently beat Cap once in scans Spidey has, and I think Spidey has surpassed me in debating skill. But this one's still going to be really fun! "
Nah. 
I'm barely equal to you in terms of debating skills. 
Also, Logan had adam, so he had a great advantage in terms of durability, something that he does not have here. 
 
@Andferne:

   But good luck. I know who I am rooting for. =) 


 
Thanks! 
=] 
 
Ok, i will begin. 
I'll start with something simple. 
Logan will close the distance between them. Then they will have an h2h fight and IMO, Logan's reflexes will let him to dodge a few attacks from Cap and his healing should be able to heal him from a few attacks that cap might manage to land. Also, IMO, Logan is as skilled as cap and a combination of his skills with his healing factor and reflexes, should allow him to take a slight advantage over cap. 
I'll give to Logan a 6/10! 
 
Oh and the thread will be more enjoyable with a skillet song =P 
 
#6 Posted by mavfan626 (4130 posts) - - Show Bio

good luck!
#7 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@mavfan626 said:
" good luck! "
Thanks! 
=]
#8 Posted by SteveRodgers (728 posts) - - Show Bio

no regeneration than I say Cap

#9 Posted by lagoon_boy (10954 posts) - - Show Bio
May the best debater win!
#10 Posted by ComicMan24 (147093 posts) - - Show Bio

I like this concept. Good luck!

#11 Posted by Achilles. (3847 posts) - - Show Bio
@MarvelJackAss433 said:
" -Grabs popcorn- "
-Grabs beer-
#12 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:   

 Logan will close the distance between them.


 
 
Cap knows that Logan has to get into melee range to be effective at all. Cap's shield gives him an incredible long-range advantage. I think Cap would try to take Wolverine out with a shield throw before letting it go to h2h.  
I'll provide all necessary scans in a different post.  
 

 Logan's reflexes will let him to dodge a few attacks from Cap and his healing should be able to heal him from a few attacks that cap might manage to land.      


 
Wolverine might be able to dodge a few attacks, but he's been tagged plenty of times by people slower than Cap. As for the healing factor, Cap knows what Wolverine is capable of healing from, so he knows from the very beginning that he needs to be aiming for joints, pressure points, and all other areas that don't have to have a major wound to be effected. Breaking bones is a good option too. They take a pretty long time to heal properly, greatly reduce Wolverine's fighting effectiveness, and Cap has already shown that a shield throw can sever a man's arm clean off (and due to the laws of physics, a melee bash with the shield should be even more powerful than a shield throw). Even if morals are on, anyone who knows Wolverine and is normally friends with him won't hesitate to do serious damage to him if they feel like it.  
 

 Also, IMO, Logan is as skilled as cap and a combination of his skills with his healing factor and reflexes, should allow him to take a slight advantage over cap.   


 
Some sources say that Logan is among the Marvel universe's top martial artists, but the vast majority of his fights indicate that he rarely lives up to that. Highly skilled or not, he's usually just a hack-and-slash kind of guy.   
 
 
 
BTW, it's nice to see there are other Skillet fans here :)
#13 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

 Cap's shield throw is fast enough to catch up to a missle that already had a head start.
 

 Cap's shield throw severs Red Skull's arm clean in half.
 

 Enough precision with the shield throw to light a lighter without breaking it.
 

 Cap is always thinking several steps ahead of his opponent. A shield throw now might kill you 10 seconds in the future...


 Enough accuracy, range, speed, and force to bring down a military helecopter in one throw. Judging by Cap's demeanor at the end, I don't think it was even a little difficult.

  

 Cap practically dances around gunfire at point blank range.
 

 Spider-Man says his spider-sense is his ONE advantage over the shield. And Cap is still thinking far enough ahead in the fight that he can sucker-punch Peter.
 

 Cap pretty much one-shots Wolverine's clone.
 

 Cap's shield bash draws blood from the Hulk.
 

 A knee-jerk shield bash knocks Colossus off his feet.
 

 Daredevil (a bit slower than Cap) dodges a claw strike and tags Wolverine with a chop to the throat.
 

 
 Not really the most relevant scan here, but it's one of my very favorites :)  Spider-Man, who was on the same team as Wolverine at the time (and who is usually a very nice guy), has nothing against throwing him through a window of unbreakable glass and letting him fall 50-60 stories to the ground. If Cap sees Wolverine as an enemy, he's not going to be holding back at all.
#14 Edited by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus:  

Cap knows that Logan has to get into melee range to be effective at all. Cap's shield gives him an incredible long-range advantage. I think Cap would try to take Wolverine out with a shield throw before letting it go to h2h.  
I'll provide all necessary scans in a different post.   


 
Wolverine is already aware how dangerous is cap's shield and how skilled cap is with that weapon, so the long distance between them, it will be an advantage for Wolverine to use stealth in order to close the distance between them and sneak up on cap. 
 

 Wolverine might be able to dodge a few attacks, but he's been tagged plenty of times by people slower than Cap. As for the healing factor, Cap knows what Wolverine is capable of healing from, so he knows from the very beginning that he needs to be aiming for joints, pressure points, and all other areas that don't have to have a major wound to be effected. Breaking bones is a good option too. They take a pretty long time to heal properly, greatly reduce Wolverine's fighting effectiveness, and Cap has already shown that a shield throw can sever a man's arm clean off (and due to the laws of physics, a melee bash with the shield should be even more powerful than a shield throw). Even if morals are on, anyone who knows Wolverine and is normally friends with him won't hesitate to do serious damage to him if they feel like it.    
 


Logan most of the time does not bother to dodge because of his healing. But now since he lacks the unbreakable bones and he knows that cap's shield can cause him great damage even with his healing, he would most likely try to dodge cap's hits. Also, when he wants he can dodge faster opponents like spider-man 


 Also nerve strikes shouldn't be a problem for Logan. He has already taken many nerve strikes from Echo( i think ) and because of his healing, he healed pretty fast from their effects. I wouldn't count the instance with DD pretty valid. Not to mention that now that he does not have adamantium, his healing should work faster than otherwise. 
Breaking bones would be a good idea but will cap be able to do it without losing any limbs? Because Logan won't be standing just there without doing anything or dodging. As i said he is aware of the damage that the shield can cause and he will try to dodge most of the hits but even when cap will tag him, Logan has high pain tolerance and even if he does not have his great durability, his healing could still heal his injuries and help him to keep up with few of cap's attacks. 
Also, Logan has the potential to one shot cap, because, even when morals are on, Logan does not hesitate to use his claws and now that he thinks that cap is on the dark side, he would most likely use his claws in a more effective way. 
 And Logan's stealth mode will be a good advantage for him because he will be able to land the first hit. But even if he won't be able to do it, it will still be a good way for him to close the distance and turn the fight in h2h. 
 

 Some sources say that Logan is among the Marvel universe's top martial artists, but the vast majority of his fights indicate that he rarely lives up to that. Highly skilled or not, he's usually just a hack-and-slash kind of guy.   


   
There are several fights where Logan had done well against other martial artists. 
He can always fight pretty effectively and he has proven that when he has beaten Shang chi, Captain America( but he had adamantium in that fight ) and Bucky. 
Also this is a good example 
of his skills: 


Against Bucky: 


 Against Shang Chi: 

 And in that fight, Logan didn't use his claws until when he put him down. But the point is that his claws didn't help him.
Against Black Panther: 

 I'm not sure what was the outcome of that fight but the point is that he was fast and skilled enough to put T'Challa down, while he was attacking.

 
 
I could also post the fight with cap, but i don't think it will be pretty valid since it was with adamantium. 
  
Anyway, both of us know that cap is very fast and he has great reflexes. But that does not mean he will be always able to dodge or block. 
Logan not only was able to dodge fast opponents. He was also able to tag fast opponents without much effort.


 He was able to cut Storm's cape without touching her( when she is flying she is obviously at high speeds ) and he states that it was a piece of cake.

 Yeah, i'm happy that there are more people that like skillet. 
=]
#15 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
Hmm. I'm thinking I may have bitten off more than I can chew. 
  

 Wolverine is already aware how dangerous is cap's shield and how skilled cap is with that weapon, so the long distance between them, it will be an advantage for Wolverine to use stealth in order to close the distance between them and sneak up on cap.   


  
Logah is good at stealth, but he can't just disappear into thin air. Cap knows Wolverine is most vulnerable when he's out in the open at a distance. From the moment the fight starts, Cap will be working his way into a position where he can see Logan and get a clear shot at him. Cap isn't dumb enough to let Logan disappear behind a corner.  
 

 Also nerve strikes shouldn't be a problem for Logan. He has already taken many nerve strikes from Echo( i think ) and because of his healing, he healed pretty fast from their effects. I wouldn't count the instance with DD pretty valid. Not to mention that now that he does not have adamantium, his healing should work faster than otherwise.   


 
Nerve strikes aren't as effective on Logan as they are on other people, but they would still give Cap a perfect opportunity to capitalize with some more powerful hits.  
 

 Breaking bones would be a good idea but will cap be able to do it without losing any limbs? Because Logan won't be standing just there without doing anything or dodging. As i said he is aware of the damage that the shield can cause and he will try to dodge most of the hits but even when cap will tag him, Logan has high pain tolerance and even if he does not have his great durability, his healing could still heal his injuries and help him to keep up with few of cap's attacks.   


 
I don't think Cap would go for the 'bone-breaking' blows right off the bat, as they would leave him more vulnerable. I can see him using quick strikes to joints and pressure points first to get Wolverine down for just a second, and then pulling out all the stops and snapping his bones in half.  
 
 

Also, Logan has the potential to one shot cap, because, even when morals are on, Logan does not hesitate to use his claws and now that he thinks that cap is on the dark side, he would most likely use his claws in a more effective way.   


 
Logan has a lot of respect for Cap. Even if he thinks he's an enemy, I can't see Logan going for a lethal blow unless he sees no other choice. Cap, on the other hand, knows that Wolverine can take one h**l of a beating and still be fine the next day, so he won't be pulling his strikes.  
 

 And Logan's stealth mode will be a good advantage for him because he will be able to land the first hit. But even if he won't be able to do it, it will still be a good way for him to close the distance and turn the fight in h2h.   
 


That is IF Logan is stealthy enough to sneak up on Cap. I find that highly unlikely. And if his sneak attack fails, it just gives Cap a golden opportunity to tag him with a shield throw from point blank range.  
 

 Logan here, is using the skills that he learn in order to fight and dodge. You can see the flashbacks.   


 
D**n you for using my favorite Wolverine scans against me!!! 
 

 Against Shang Chi:   And in that fight, Logan didn't use his claws until when he put him down. But the point is that his claws didn't help him. 


 
Well... Shang Chi didn't have a giant shield... and he's not as good as Cap... and he had no idea who Wolverine was or what he could do, so he wasn't prepared.  
 

 Against Black Panther:     
 I'm not sure what was the outcome of that fight but the point is that he was fast and skilled enough to put T'Challa down, while he was attacking.  


 
T'Challa also fought Cap once, and I believe it ended in a stalemate. I don't have the scans of the fight though. 
#16 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
For the record, in the first set of scans you showed (where Wolverine is going all kung fu on those mystical baddies in Chinatown), that was his second time fighting them. The first time, he pretty much charged at them like a bull and he totally got his a$$ handed to him by every one of them. He barely escaped with his life. Then he met some old dude in the sewers, went through rigorous training to get his samurai skills back, and then defeated those dudes in the second round.
#17 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus:  

Hmm. I'm thinking I may have bitten off more than I can chew.


  
LOL 
 
 

Logah is good at stealth, but he can't just disappear into thin air. Cap knows Wolverine is most vulnerable when he's out in the open at a distance. From the moment the fight starts, Cap will be working his way into a position where he can see Logan and get a clear shot at him. Cap isn't dumb enough to let Logan disappear behind a corner.    


 
 Of course it won't be that easy but Logan has shown some insane stealth skills. And considering that there is a long distance between them and that there are cars there. It will be a good help to use his stealth abilities. Yeah cap might work his position but that doesn't mean he will be able to find Logan. Logan was able to use his stealth abilities in a forest without making any sound at all. Here it will be even easier. Also Logan was able to vanished in front of some soldiers while they were looking at him and i think there was a time that he vanished in front of Nightcrawler. 

 Stealth mode without making any sound


 Vanishing infront of some soldiers



 Nerve strikes aren't as effective on Logan as they are on other people, but they would still give Cap a perfect opportunity to capitalize with some more powerful hits.  
 


But in order to land a nerve strike, you have to be very specific and since Logan will bother to dodge cap's attacks, then i think it will be very doubtful that cap might be able to land a successful nerve pinch. 
 

 I don't think Cap would go for the 'bone-breaking' blows right off the bat, as they would leave him more vulnerable. I can see him using quick strikes to joints and pressure points first to get Wolverine down for just a second, and then pulling out all the stops and snapping his bones in half.    
 


Logan's healing, high pain tolerance and reflexes will make this extremely hard for cap. 
 

   Logan has a lot of respect for Cap. Even if he thinks he's an enemy, I can't see Logan going for a lethal blow unless he sees no other choice. Cap, on the other hand, knows that Wolverine can take one h**l of a beating and still be fine the next day, so he won't be pulling his strikes.  
  


I'm aware of that. But as i said he does not hesitate to use his claws. He might not go for the kill but he won't hesitate to cause great damage on cap. 
    

That is IF Logan is stealthy enough to sneak up on Cap. I find that highly unlikely. And if his sneak attack fails, it just gives Cap a golden opportunity to tag him with a shield throw from point blank range. 
 


According to my scans, he is highly skilled in terms of stealth and 50 feet distance is not too long for someone as fast as Logan. And even if he fail to sneak up on him, at least he should be able to close the distance. I'm very sure about it. 
 

 D**n you for using my favorite Wolverine scans against me!!!  
 


LOL, Sorry. 
 
 

  Well... Shang Chi didn't have a giant shield... and he's not as good as Cap... and he had no idea who Wolverine was or what he could do, so he wasn't prepared.  
  


Of course, i'm not denying that. My point is that Logan can take on highly skilled characters even without his claws. Also, Shang knew what Logan is capable off. They had another fight before. Shang had won, but Logan was not as skilled as he is now and the location was a good help for Shang in order to beat him. 
 But the fight where Logan won, it was fair and he didn't even use his claws. 
 

 T'Challa also fought Cap once, and I believe it ended in a stalemate. I don't have the scans of the fight though.   
 


I think T'Challa won, but it was not a serious fight so it does not really count. 
 

  For the record, in the first set of scans you showed (where Wolverine is going all kung fu on those mystical baddies in Chinatown), that was his second time fighting them. The first time, he pretty much charged at them like a bull and he totally got his a$$ handed to him by every one of them. He barely escaped with his life. Then he met some old dude in the sewers, went through rigorous training to get his samurai skills back, and then defeated those dudes in the second round. 
 


I know, but this does not really matter since he still has the skills that he learned. 
=]
#18 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:   

 Of course it won't be that easy but Logan has shown some insane stealth skills. And considering that there is a long distance between them and that there are cars there. It will be a good help to use his stealth abilities. Yeah cap might work his position but that doesn't mean he will be able to find Logan. Logan was able to use his stealth abilities in a forest without making any sound at all. Here it will be even easier. Also Logan was able to vanished in front of some soldiers while they were looking at him and i think there was a time that he vanished in front of Nightcrawler.   


 
Vanishing from right in front of normal people isn't THAT impressive. Plenty of other street levelers have done the same thing.  

 Cap sees faster than normal people, to the point where dodging bullets is ''nothing'' to him.

 And even if Logan does manage to disappear, getting the drop on Cap is still a whole new challenge. Cap knows all the tricks to avoid being snuck up on. Keep moving, watch the shadows, stay out in the open, ect. Heck, Cap might just climb on top of a building or something and wait for Logan to come to him.  
 

 But in order to land a nerve strike, you have to be very specific and since Logan will bother to dodge cap's attacks, then i think it will be very doubtful that cap might be able to land a successful nerve pinch.   


 
I was just using 'nerve strike' as a general term for any attack that can be effective without actually causing a lot of damage to the body. This could be blows to the joints and ligaments, hits to the back of the head or other major arteries,  slaps to the side of the head, hits to pressure points or soft tissue, eye gouging, or actual nerve pinches. All of those attacks can cause pain, temporary incapacitation of body parts, disorientation, ect, without doing damage that a healing factor could fix within seconds. If Cap lands some attacks of that kind, it could slow Wolverine down enough to give Cap the chance to land some more decisive blows. 
BTW, have you seen the movie Sherlock Holmes (the recent one with Robert Downey Jr). What I'm talking about here makes me think of one of the fight scenes from that movie, but I can't really reference it if you haven't seen it.  
 

 Logan's healing, high pain tolerance and reflexes will make this extremely hard for cap.   


 
Not if Cap plays his cards right. Lightning-fast, disabling strikes in the beginning. Heavier, more crippling blows right after that. Knockout when he's down (there are quite a few ways to make a person lose conciousness without really injuring them. The most commonly known one is a sharp hit to the back of the head).  
 

 I'm aware of that. But as i said he does not hesitate to use his claws. He might not go for the kill but he won't hesitate to cause great damage on cap.   


 
Agreed. I was just making sure we were on the same page.  
 

 According to my scans, he is highly skilled in terms of stealth and 50 feet distance is not too long for someone as fast as Logan. And even if he fail to sneak up on him, at least he should be able to close the distance. I'm very sure about it.   


 
He may be able to close the distance, but he won't be able to get right up in Cap's face before Cap spots him. If he is really good with his stealth, I can see him being within 5-10 feet of Cap by the time Cap is aware of his location. Still, because of his shield, Cap can attack instantly from that range. Wolverine still has to get right up in Cap's grill to be effective. Even if he can dodge bullets, I see Wolverine having very little chance of dodging Cap's shield being thrown from 10 feet away.  
 

 Of course, i'm not denying that. My point is that Logan can take on highly skilled characters even without his claws. Also, Shang knew what Logan is capable off. They had another fight before. Shang had won, but Logan was not as skilled as he is now and the location was a good help for Shang in order to beat him. 
 But the fight where Logan won, it was fair and he didn't even use his claws.   


 
Are you sure that isn't their first fight? The dialogue seems to indicate they had never met before. "Surprised-- ain't you boy?" "First time you ever squared off against an opponent with enhanced animal senses"  "I'm chock full o' surprises." 
That doesn't sound like dialogue for people who have battled each other before.  
 
 

I know, but this does not really matter since he still has the skills that he learned. 
=]  


 
He's had skills like that for most of his life. But the first time he fought those guys, he chose not to use them. It was only when they beat the living daylights out of him that he decided to have a "Rocky montage" with that old sensei so he could focus on his skills again. 
So, yes, he does have those skills. He just doesn't use them all the time.  
#19 Posted by TerrorMask (16 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: That band sucks.
#20 Posted by k4tzm4n (44428 posts) - - Show Bio
@TerrorMask:
To each their own.
Staff
#21 Posted by TerrorMask (16 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @TerrorMask: To each their own. "
Aye, this is the truth.
#22 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: The outcome of the first confrontation with Wolverine is T'Challa tossing him aside before the fight was interrupted. Even before he could touch T'Challa, Wolverine had a hard time laying his hands on him.
#23 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Yeah, i'm aware. I have found the whole fight and it was interrupted by the Thing IIRC. My point with that scan, was Logan's skill and reaction that let him counter T'Challa's attack and put him down. 
 
Thank you, anyway. 
=]
#24 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus:  

  Vanishing from right in front of normal people isn't THAT impressive. Plenty of other street levelers have done the same thing.   
  And even if Logan does manage to disappear, getting the drop on Cap is still a whole new challenge. Cap knows all the tricks to avoid being snuck up on. Keep moving, watch the shadows, stay out in the open, ect. Heck, Cap might just climb on top of a building or something and wait for Logan to come to him.    


 
I'm aware of that. My point of those scans, is that Wolverine can easily vanished even at an open location. 
Also, he was able to Vanish even at a character with better reflexes than a normal human. Maybe not as good as cap, but still 
 Vanishing in front of Nightcrawler
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Also, there is a lot of cover in that location and i'm talking about the cars. It can help Logan use his stealth skills even at a better way.  
I really doubt that Cap will be able to locate him before Logan could close the distance. Logan's abilites to move without making any noise and his speed, should allow him to close the distance.  
Also, now that i think it better, Logan is aware of cap's high tactical intellect and how he thinks during battle so he should know that sneaking up on him it will be extremely hard. So  he might only try to close the distance. 
 
 Here is Logan moving without making any noise...again. He even states that no one ever hears him. =]
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  

 I was just using 'nerve strike' as a general term for any attack that can be effective without actually causing a lot of damage to the body. This could be blows to the joints and ligaments, hits to the back of the head or other major arteries,  slaps to the side of the head, hits to pressure points or soft tissue, eye gouging, or actual nerve pinches. All of those attacks can cause pain, temporary incapacitation of body parts, disorientation, ect, without doing damage that a healing factor could fix within seconds. If Cap lands some attacks of that kind, it could slow Wolverine down enough to give Cap the chance to land some more decisive blows. 
BTW, have you seen the movie Sherlock Holmes (the recent one with Robert Downey Jr). What I'm talking about here makes me think of one of the fight scenes from that movie, but I can't really reference it if you haven't seen it.   


 
Well, this kind of attacks will be a lot more effective against a character like spider-man. But Logan's amazing healing factor( which is more effective now that he does not have adamantium ) and his high pain tolerance should allow him to easily withstand these kind of attacks. Also Logan's reflexes should allow him to roll with the hits so the damage will be even less. 
Here is bone claw Logan having broken bones by this car and he was still able to heal fast enough and stand up 
 
NOTE: Sorry, i have not seen the movie but i have heard about it. It sounds interesting so i'll have it in mind. 
 
Scans 

Here we see Logan being crushed by 2 cars causing him great pain. But even with this kind of pain, he was still able to semi dodge a bullet after it is fired from point blank and fight back 


 Not if Cap plays his cards right. Lightning-fast, disabling strikes in the beginning. Heavier, more crippling blows right after that. Knockout when he's down (there are quite a few ways to make a person lose conciousness without really injuring them. The most commonly known one is a sharp hit to the back of the head).    
 


Logan has what it's needed to roll with cap's hits, block, dodge, withstand and heal from them. So as i said before, it will be extremely hard for cap to cause great damage on Logan. Especially when he has shown the ability to heal from broken bones pretty easily and dodging bullets even if he suffers from high pains.  
 

 Agreed. I was just making sure we were on the same page.  
   


Oh, ok.  
 

  He may be able to close the distance, but he won't be able to get right up in Cap's face before Cap spots him. If he is really good with his stealth, I can see him being within 5-10 feet of Cap by the time Cap is aware of his location. Still, because of his shield, Cap can attack instantly from that range. Wolverine still has to get right up in Cap's grill to be effective. Even if he can dodge bullets, I see Wolverine having very little chance of dodging Cap's shield being thrown from 10 feet away.  
  


As i have already mention, Logan might not try to sneak up on him, but he will obviously be able to close the distance to the point that a shield throw, won't save cap from having an h2h fight with Logan. 
  


 Are you sure that isn't their first fight? The dialogue seems to indicate they had never met before. "Surprised-- ain't you boy?" "First time you ever squared off against an opponent with enhanced animal senses"  "I'm chock full o' surprises." 
That doesn't sound like dialogue for people who have battled each other before.  
   


That makes sense, but seriously, i don't have any explanation about that.  
Even if this is their first fight, the fact that Logan had normal bones and he did't use his claws and the fight was only h2h, it still counts as a great skill feat. 
 
 

He's had skills like that for most of his life. But the first time he fought those guys, he chose not to use them. It was only when they beat the living daylights out of him that he decided to have a "Rocky montage" with that old sensei so he could focus on his skills again. 
So, yes, he does have those skills. He just doesn't use them all the time.    
 


Sorry, i was not able to read Manifest Destiny so i could not know. But that does not mean that he won't use his skill here. Especially when he has low durability and he knows how skilled and good strategist that Cap is. 
=] 
#25 Posted by spawn devil (938 posts) - - Show Bio

YAY, skillet!

#26 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@TerrorMask: This is Personal Preference. I like it, you don't. 
=]
#27 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@TerrorMask said:
" @spidey 15: That band sucks. "

No need to hate, bro. It's all just opinion =]
#28 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
I'm getting kinda swamped with homework right now, but I'll put up a return argument when I get the chance.
#29 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus: Don't worry. Get your time. 
=]
#30 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
 

Also, now that i think it better, Logan is aware of cap's high tactical intellect and how he thinks during battle so he should know that sneaking up on him it will be extremely hard. So  he might only try to close the distance.   


 
I think that is a point on which we can agree. Wolverine may be capable of stealthily closing the gap, but a full-fledged surprise attack would be implausible against Cap.  
 
 

Well, this kind of attacks will be a lot more effective against a character like spider-man. But Logan's amazing healing factor( which is more effective now that he does not have adamantium ) and his high pain tolerance should allow him to easily withstand these kind of attacks. Also Logan's reflexes should allow him to roll with the hits so the damage will be even less. 
Here is bone claw Logan having broken bones by this car and he was still able to heal fast enough and stand up  
 


The point of attacks like that is that the don't actually create the kind of damage that a healing factor would instantly take care of. Just as an example, I believe there is a major pressure zone on the inside of the elbow. Due to the nerves and major arteries in that area, a really hard jab to that spot can cause the whole arm to go numb. The hit doesn't actually cause an injury. It just pinches off the nerves and blood flow in the area, causing the arm to temporarily shut down. There are a great many ways similar to that to cause pain or dysfunction without really injuring the person.   
 
 

NOTE: Sorry, i have not seen the movie but i have heard about it. It sounds interesting so i'll have it in mind. 
   


Ah well. It's one of my favorite fight scenes from any movie, and it almost perfectly illustrates the point I'm trying to make with the "disable without injuring" attacks. 
Basically, Sherlock Holmes is in a boxing match with an opponent much larger and stronger than himself. It would be very difficult for Holmes to bring down such a large opponent with brute force, so his entire strategy for most of the fight is to slap the other guy. Slaps don't do nearly as much damage as a punch, but the are far quicker and easier to land, and can be just as painful. A good slap to the side of the head will seriously mess up the inner ear, causing dizziness and disorientation (but no injury). Also, there's nothing quite like constant, repetitive painful flicks and slaps to really piss your opponent off and make him sloppy. Eventually, Holmes' constant slapping leaves the other guy disoriented and open enough that Holmes could land an epic combo of brutal hits to take him down.  
 

 Logan has what it's needed to roll with cap's hits, block, dodge, withstand and heal from them. So as i said before, it will be extremely hard for cap to cause great damage on Logan. Especially when he has shown the ability to heal from broken bones pretty easily and dodging bullets even if he suffers from high pains.  
   


It's true that Logan's healing factor is very powerful, but Cap does have ways to get past it if he can just stun Logan enough to get a clear shot. 
Logan can heal from major bone fractures, but I don't think he can heal from a limb being snapped in half (reference to the scan where Cap slices Red Skull's arm in half with a shield throw), and there's nothing to heal from if Cap uses the right method to simply knock him out (blow to the back of the head, nerve pinch, choke-hold, ect).   
 
 

As i have already mention, Logan might not try to sneak up on him, but he will obviously be able to close the distance to the point that a shield throw, won't save cap from having an h2h fight with Logan.   


 
I can't imagine Logan getting any closer than 5-10 feet of Cap before Cap knows where he is. As for the shield throw, the closer a projectile is to you, the less time you have to dodge. That's why dodging bullets at point blank range is more impressive than dodging bullets from far away. Cap can throw his shield fast enough to catch up to a missle that already had a head start, and with enough accuracy to bounce it around the room and light a cigarette lighter without breaking it (scans of these feats have already been provided), and his shield is WAY bigger than a bullet (meaning Wolverine has to move farther to get out of it's path). Bullet dodger or not, I don't think Logan has very good chances of dodging Cap's shield throw when Cap is only five or ten feet away.   
 
 

That makes sense, but seriously, i don't have any explanation about that.  
Even if this is their first fight, the fact that Logan had normal bones and he did't use his claws and the fight was only h2h, it still counts as a great skill feat. 
   


I'm no longer sure quite how to take that scan. I want to take your word for it that it was not their first time fighting. But the dialogue just seems to indicate that Shang Chi was not aware of Logan's capabilities (thus making the feat somewhat less impressive).  
 
 

Sorry, i was not able to read Manifest Destiny so i could not know. But that does not mean that he won't use his skill here. Especially when he has low durability and he knows how skilled and good strategist that Cap is. 
=]   


 
So you say you didn't read Manifest Destiny? Hmm.... 
Well then I guess you should know that the first time Wolverine fought those guys, he was already aware they had crazy-awesome mystical powers and skills, he never even used his claws, and one of them (with completely human-level strength) finished the fight by one-shotting him with a punch to the face. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Lol j/k that was all a lie :) 
#31 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus: Good post pal, but i will reply later. I'm a bit tired right now. 
=]
#32 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
All right :)
#33 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus: 

  I think that is a point on which we can agree. Wolverine may be capable of stealthily closing the gap, but a full-fledged surprise attack would be implausible against Cap.  
  


Nice, we are in agreement. =] 
 

 The point of attacks like that is that the don't actually create the kind of damage that a healing factor would instantly take care of. Just as an example, I believe there is a major pressure zone on the inside of the elbow. Due to the nerves and major arteries in that area, a really hard jab to that spot can cause the whole arm to go numb. The hit doesn't actually cause an injury. It just pinches off the nerves and blood flow in the area, causing the arm to temporarily shut down. There are a great many ways similar to that to cause pain or dysfunction without really injuring the person.   
   


I'm not sure, but this sounds as a nerve strike and as i have already mentioned before, Logan has taken multiple nerve strikes from echo and he was healed from the effects very fast. So i highly doubt that this kind of attack will be enough to give cap an advantage over Logan. 
 

   Ah well. It's one of my favorite fight scenes from any movie, and it almost perfectly illustrates the point I'm trying to make with the "disable without injuring" attacks. 
Basically, Sherlock Holmes is in a boxing match with an opponent much larger and stronger than himself. It would be very difficult for Holmes to bring down such a large opponent with brute force, so his entire strategy for most of the fight is to slap the other guy. Slaps don't do nearly as much damage as a punch, but the are far quicker and easier to land, and can be just as painful. A good slap to the side of the head will seriously mess up the inner ear, causing dizziness and disorientation (but no injury). Also, there's nothing quite like constant, repetitive painful flicks and slaps to really piss your opponent off and make him sloppy. Eventually, Holmes' constant slapping leaves the other guy disoriented and open enough that Holmes could land an epic combo of brutal hits to take him down.   
 


That sounds pretty cool and the plan to use this kind of attacks will be good enough, but i doubt it will be as effective to Logan as someone else. We have already seen Logan being in a world of Pain when the 2 cars crushed him, but this didn't prevent him from semi dodging a bullet from point blank. I doubt that cap could accomplish much with this kinds of attacks against the high pain tolerance of Logan. The only way that i imagine that cap can use to beat Logan it's if he land some well placed hits with his shield, something extremely difficult considering Logan's reflexes. 
 

 It's true that Logan's healing factor is very powerful, but Cap does have ways to get past it if he can just stun Logan enough to get a clear shot. 
Logan can heal from major bone fractures, but I don't think he can heal from a limb being snapped in half (reference to the scan where Cap slices Red Skull's arm in half with a shield throw), and there's nothing to heal from if Cap uses the right method to simply knock him out (blow to the back of the head, nerve pinch, choke-hold, ect).    
 


Way that's a good way of hurting Logan, but Logan knows cap and he knows that he will use every way to beat him, so his skills and speed will let Logan to not give to cap a clear shot on him while he is attacking. 
Oh and as i said, nerve strikes/pinches won't save cap. 
 

   I can't imagine Logan getting any closer than 5-10 feet of Cap before Cap knows where he is. As for the shield throw, the closer a projectile is to you, the less time you have to dodge. That's why dodging bullets at point blank range is more impressive than dodging bullets from far away. Cap can throw his shield fast enough to catch up to a missle that already had a head start, and with enough accuracy to bounce it around the room and light a cigarette lighter without breaking it (scans of these feats have already been provided), and his shield is WAY bigger than a bullet (meaning Wolverine has to move farther to get out of it's path). Bullet dodger or not, I don't think Logan has very good chances of dodging Cap's shield throw when Cap is only five or ten feet away.   
  


I can imagine that. I have never seen anything from cap that suggest that he can locate someone with Logan's stealth skills, that can also move without making any noise and that he has the speed that is needed to close the distance. When i said that a shield throw won't save cap from having an h2h fight, i meant that he won't have time to throw it because Logan will already be close enough to him. 
 

 I'm no longer sure quite how to take that scan. I want to take your word for it that it was not their first time fighting. But the dialogue just seems to indicate that Shang Chi was not aware of Logan's capabilities (thus making the feat somewhat less impressive).  
   


I don't think that dialogue indicate anything like that. Logan is saying that "is it the first time that you are facing someone with enhanced senses or healing factor?" or something like that. That sounds more like Shang was aware of Logan's abilities but he just never faced someone with these abilites. 
 
 

So you say you didn't read Manifest Destiny? Hmm.... 
Well then I guess you should know that the first time Wolverine fought those guys, he was already aware they had crazy-awesome mystical powers and skills, he never even used his claws, and one of them (with completely human-level strength) finished the fight by one-shotting him with a punch to the face. 
Lol j/k that was all a lie :)   
 


lol  
=]
#34 Posted by TheCerealKillz (10267 posts) - - Show Bio

Go power Nexus!
 
Go Spidey!
 
Go Power Nexus!
 
Go Spidey!
 
I hate you both for having me decide.....-_-

#35 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCerealKillz said:
" Go power Nexus!  Go Spidey!  Go Power Nexus!  Go Spidey!  I hate you both for having me decide.....-_- "
lol
#36 Posted by SlimJ87D (9964 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: 

 
Questions and concerns about this scan. Did Wolverine have adamantium during this fight?
#37 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: Nope. As you can see in the last panel, Logan has Shang's head between the 2 of his claws. And as you can see, these are bone claws. 
=]
#38 Posted by SlimJ87D (9964 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @SlimJ87D: Nope. As you can see in the last panel, Logan has Shang's head between the 2 of his claws. And as you can see, these are bone claws. =] "
lol, i actually asked because I can't really see teh claws haha. Carry on. Good job guys.
#39 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: LOL, I see. And thanks. 
=D
#40 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to put up a reply tomorrow. I'm dead tired right now.

#41 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  
I have a very busy weekend, so it may be a little while before I can get back to this.
#42 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus: No problem with that. 
=]
#43 Posted by PirateKing69 (4290 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus: @spidey 15: really good debate but i didnt see if yall came to a agreement
#44 Edited by jasraj (4728 posts) - - Show Bio
WOW....that was class debating skill, it would take me a decade to get to that level, a century, good job Spidey15 and Power Nexus!
#45 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1656 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm confuesd . 
Did you guys have a one no one debate or did that just happen
#46 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

Daaaaang. I had forgotten all about this. 
Good times.

#47 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:
" I'm confuesd . Did you guys have a one no one debate or did that just happen "
Yes, it was a 1-on-1 debate. It came from the "challenge a debater" thread from a few months ago. Either I challenged Spidey 15 or he challenged me, we chose our characters, and had a debate here. 
It ended up ending prematurely though.
#48 Posted by jasraj (4728 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus:
Cool
#49 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1656 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus:
by yo hoosing , did i have to be fair , like what if you picked nightwing and he picked Darkseid ? 
like does it have to be a good fight
#50 Posted by jasraj (4728 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:
"@Power NeXus: by yo hoosing , did i have to be fair , like what if you picked nightwing and he picked Darkseid ? like does it have to be a good fight "

I think it can't be spite