Spiders VS Super Soldiers

Peter's character is his greatest weakness, he holds back so, so much. I agree he might hold back initially against Ult. Cap, but Ult. Cap is very, very different from 616 Cap. How long would it take Peter to realize this isn't his Cap? He's a genius, and knows Cap very well, so not long I'd wager. Once he realizes it isn't his Cap, I think a lot of that respect will go out the window.

The only one who is more apprehensive than Peter is Miles, who I consider the weak link here. Certainly his Venom Sting is powerful, and hell it might even have the potential to KO one of the soldiers in one blow, but I think he'd be the first one down and it'd quickly become a 3v4. Kaine is reckless, but powerful and very fast. I think he could take someone down with him as he goes down. If I recall, didn't magnetic webbing become part of Peter's standard gear along with ice pellets? I know he started carrying more tech with him, and he knows Wolverine very well. A magnetic web wrap couldset Wolverine back. Plus, this is Peter. He has great hand to hand, and the fastest reflexes of anyone here. He may not be as aggressive is taking on some of team 2s members, but that doesn't mean he's going to let them hit him either.

BP is always a wildcard. The man is incredibly skilled, and incredibly well equipped. But he is only human, even with vibranium you can only take so much punishment. What I mean is, I wear a Kevlar vest (hear me out) with Kevlar plates and ceramic underlays to absorb and dissipate impact. If I get shot, I still get the wind knocked out of me, it still hurts. You feel like you've been hit by a car. Cut to BP. Yes, vibranium absorbs vibrations, but its a mesh. Cardiac has vibranium mesh, and Spidey can and has still hurt him. So while his durability is good, someone like Kaine can deal some serious pain to him.

I still think the spiders get a slight 6-7/10 wins overall.

@granitesoldier: Just some minor corrections about black panther however current black panther is super human (I asked HIckman on forumspring and he told he confirmed it). Also about his vibranium suit it is more durable then cardiacs. It allowed him to take multiple punches from a bloodlusted iron fist which were stated to hit with the force of a freight train (admittedly it was over loaded here), a blast from star dust, and has allowed him to tank car explosions easily before. It is vulnerable to slashing along the grain however.

With that said current black panther doesn't seem to have his vibranium suit (it hasn't really been confirmed yet and Hickman stated he never liked the suit). Its been replaced for a cloaking device, force field, and a teleporter. He still has his energy daggers and his suit is insulated to electrical attacks.

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@heraldofganthet Deathstroke has his current Nth metal armor, his broad sword, blast staff, and assortment of guns, along with some grenades. You can use both pre and post flashpoint feats.

I can't believe how far off this argument has gotten.

I think everyone in this thread, including myself previously, have completely derailed this thread, and gotten a wee bit too worked up over it.

@106me: Don't get so upset man, it only messes up your reasoning skills. Just do a CaV, share some feats, and get your point across. OR, instead of going through all that trouble, just post on here! Super_Soldier is right, you do need to be ready to backup your claims.

As for @Super_SoldierXII, these points that you want somebody to "refute" have already been brought up, and discussed. At this point, we're already going in circles. You can't blame the man for getting a little worked up, even if he is being slightly unreasonable.

And just for the lolz, let me say this: Spidey beat Firelord in straight-up combat, no prep, cunning, or strategy used! So that MUST mean he's able to beat all of these chumps in straight up combat! *trololololo*

Jmarshmallow

@jashro44 said:

@granitesoldier: Just some minor corrections about black panther however current black panther is super human (I asked HIckman on forumspring and he told he confirmed it). Also about his vibranium suit it is more durable then cardiacs. It allowed him to take multiple punches from a bloodlusted iron fist which were stated to hit with the force of a freight train (admittedly it was over loaded here), a blast from star dust, and has allowed him to tank car explosions easily before. It is vulnerable to slashing along the grain however.

With that said current black panther doesn't seem to have his vibranium suit (it hasn't really been confirmed yet and Hickman stated he never liked the suit). Its been replaced for a cloaking device, force field, and a teleporter. He still has his energy daggers and his suit is insulated to electrical attacks.

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@heraldofganthet Deathstroke has his current Nth metal armor, his broad sword, blast staff, and assortment of guns, along with some grenades. You can use both pre and post flashpoint feats.

Oh my current BP is way different. So his evasiveness is going to be much better, but his durability will likely be lower. My statement may not stand 100%, but I still think it's pretty accurate. BP is still the wildcard. He may actually be vulnerable now to Kaine's stingers.

@granitesoldier: Yep that seems to be pretty accurate.

@super_soldierxii: Okay, maybe my rant was a bit over the top. Maybe a little, but I was not yelling or throwing a "tantrum", just ranting. But do I have a right to be a bit pissed off with the kind of attitude you have? You bet. So, you want me to just use evidence? Then fine, since you want to debate with me so badly, I will debate with you. Now, where exactly is your evidence? There is a difference between a logical statement and supportive evidence. You said, and I quote:

On paper, Parker loses out in strategic battle implementation (smart as he is, both Deathstroke and Black Panther have proven strategically better in a fight IMHO), durability (goes without saying) and most importantly hand to hand ability across the board (also goes without saying). I would also add to this damage output. Every single player on team Super Soldier wields a form of damage output that could potentially one shot Peter Parker. I really don't think Parker's on paper advantages are as outrageously superior as you'd like to believe.

As we can see, no evidence. And I say there's no evidence because it's in your "humble" opinion. Maybe they do have the ability to one shot parker (if he decides to just stand there), and maybe they don't. I will assume that they don't, because I have no evidence to believe otherwise. I can say, that I think spiderman has the ability to one shot any of these soldiers, and I have a scan to prove it:

So, not only does he decapitate a sentinel, but he uses it's freaking head as a weapon. If that's not hardcore, than I don't know what is. Moving on.

Now, when these advantages are looked at closer and in context, they're not all that advantageous at all. Parker's strength advantage is largely negated by team Super Soldier's durability (vibranium, shield, Nth metal armor, adamantium plus collective healing factors).

Here we see little support for these claims. But, it's still support, so I'll give you that. Is his strength just neglected though? Absolutely not. In fact, I think that spiderman can easily hurt these soldiers if he can hurt Iron Man numerous times. For example:

Here:

And here:

Still, this advantage, that of avoidance, is largely negated by tactical martial mastery in hand to hand coupled with the fact the speed and reaction time of all Super Soldiers in question are also billed at the superhuman level (Deathstroke alone has split a bullet in two with his sword for starters). Any one of these guys would give Parker trouble. Any two of them and they take a serious majority. Against all four? Even "on paper" Parker should never, ever take a majority win.

Okay, if your saying the soldiers have superior timing reactions then you are wrong. For example, this:

I told you when I didn't want to argue, I meant it. I wouldn't have minded a civilized debate, but you just kept pushing me into an argument, so here it is, I refuted all your points and more. Good day.

@106me: There we go!! Those are one of the first scans we've seen in a while!

Color me impressed, good sir!

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: Thanks, but I already knew how to debate. I'm not that bad of a debater, it's just that I neither had the time nor patience to deal with super_soldier because of his attitude, it's immature and child like. Sure the whole rant was a bit over the top, but with good reason as I was trying to hold back every bit of energy to debate with him, so I blew up. He wanted an argument, I wanted a debate.

@jmarshmallow: @106me: @super_soldierxii Just one minor correction but the scan of Peter punching iron man with the symbiote isn't the real iron man. It is iron man 2020 and he was weakened as a result of time travel:

Here are the full scans: Its still a very impressive feat though for obvious reasons. Just not quite enough to say spider-man is a threat to iron man.

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@jashro44: Good to note, thank you.

Jmarshmallow

@jashro44: But that doesn't explain the two civil war fights. He punched iron man through a wall, and in an all out fight during the end of the civil war, Spiderman did beat Iron man. When Iron man was about to go all out, Peter used his webbing to trap Iron Man and ripped his helmet off while Iron man was trapped. It'll take me a while to find the scan, but if you want it I can post it. And I dont disagree with you about the other scan though with iron man 2020. That's fine then, I wasn't aware of that.

The Spiders will have a much harder time with this fight. I can see the super soldiers winning if they fight effectively, as a team, and they'll probably end up losing a member.

No problem.

I would argue the first one you are talking about is PIS. The second one they were mainly just talking and iron man burned out of his webbing and just left. He didn't want to fight Peter if memory serves correctly. They then had another fight where iron man manipulated Peters spider-sense and stomped him.

And honestly civil war was an inconsistent mess. One comic Peter is fighting iron man and hurting reed richards, the next cap is giving him problems and daredevil can hurt him through his iron spider-suit....I wouldn't take civil war very seriously.

Iron man has been able to fly at speeds near mach 9, has shown pico second reaction speed, has tanked nukes with less then 1% of his shields, is class 100, and has weapons which can harm red hulk and one an upgraded ulik (who is a low level thor villain). Barring that in mind I would say iron man beats Peter quite handily.

It just means that even if you can't prove anything you are saying that you are entitled to feel how you do. Wrong, right or whatnot.

Personally I and a few others disagree and thus far these others are selling their side a bit better.

In other news, Wow. I come home from work and this thread got busy.

Spiders.

I am actually going to say team 2.

But do I have a right to be a bit pissed off with the kind of attitude you have? You bet.

You can react in whichever fashion you deem best for you. Getting pissed off is rarely productive however. And what attitude? I address what you say exactly as you say it. If I'm condescending and arrogant (which I have been with you and Mr. Marshmallow from time to time), it's a reflection based off your responses. You get back what you put out. You're a real piece of work. You do have a victim mentality in life if you believe you've a "right" to get pissed off about anything I've said. Fact is, you've thrown far, far more attitude my way. Difference is, I couldn't care less.

Now that that's out of the way, let's begin.

Now, where exactly is your evidence? There is a difference between a logical statement and supportive evidence. You said, and I quote:

On paper, Parker loses out in strategic battle implementation (smart as he is, both Deathstroke and Black Panther have proven strategically better in a fight IMHO), durability (goes without saying) and most importantly hand to hand ability across the board (also goes without saying). I would also add to this damage output. Every single player on team Super Soldier wields a form of damage output that could potentially one shot Peter Parker. I really don't think Parker's on paper advantages are as outrageously superior as you'd like to believe.

As we can see, no evidence. And I say there's no evidence because it's in your "humble" opinion.

At least I gave an argument and didn't just decry "mismatch" as though my word was any kind of an authority. But congrats for endeavoring to engage in an actual debate. First off, forgive me for assuming my audience had but the most elementary of knowledge with regards characters they were so quick to dismiss. I mean, me making that assumption was to avoid believing you were simply biased and without reason. Guess I was wrong (for the record thatright there, was attitude. Figured if I'm going to get tagged for doing something, might as well dish it out a little).

Let me address in more detail then;

Deathstroke's ability to react instantaneously and strategically to most any contingency is part of is power set. It's what's allowed him to contend with Kid Flash so often over the years. His brain is enhanced to analyze and configure the most probable outcomes and react accordingly 10x faster than a normal human could. In other words, he forms strategy then reacts as fast as the speed of thought.

In a large way, this scan taps two birds with one stone. It addresses how quick and effective Deathstroke is at forming live strategy and adapting instantaneously to his opponent's own, and explains that his reflexes are indeed enhanced. There are other examples of this, but I wish to avoid a needless scan orgy to highlight what is supposed to be commonplace knowledge on the characters in question.

As for Black Panther, there are too many battles to choose from wherein he's won solely because he's used superior strategy. One such battle is against Iron Man. I'll choose to highlight this one simply because you are proud of Parker's showings against Iron Man (why I don't know), even though Stark completely outsmarted Peter, disorienting his spider-sense, then effortlessly putting him down in the same arc (very strategic Parker), T'Challa on the other hand used his brain;

That's what you call using strategy and one's brain to win a fight. Parker's raw IQ can compete. And while his ability to use his head in a fight has proven impressive on a few occasions, it cannot consistently compete with either Deathstroke or Black Panther.

In fact, I think that spiderman can easily hurt these soldiers if he can hurt Iron Man numerous times. For example:

Problem being, in the first example, it was Spider-Man wearing the suit Stark built for him. Jashro44 already addressed that bit. In your second example, Stark's shields were obviously not up. The metal used to create Stark's armor on it's own is no where near as durable (at that time) as vibranium, adamantium, Cap's shield (which he's used to withstand blows from the Hulk) or I would wager the Nth armor Slade now wears and Iron Man was clearly not interested in fighting back.

As for the rest of your post, you have really and truly shown nothing. You've shown that Parker can dodge bullets. Something everyone and their mothers already know. Each and every combatant in this thread has dodged bullets. I'm not going to waste anyone's time by showing scans of such ... unless you are admitting you did not even know that the Super Soldiers are each and every one bullet timers? If you do not, then again I ask, how can you state Parker can solo them all with any ounce of authority???

And as for the Sentinel, Wolverine's absolutely wrecked Sentinels in equally, or even more, impressive fashion (swiping a Sentinel's head off with his claws). What you've shown is a cherry picked scan that, again, tells us nothing we don't already know i.e. Parker is strong, Parker has webbing, and Parker can swing things. Neat.

To conclude;

Each and every one on team Super Soldier still have damage output that can potentially one shot Parker. Need proof?

Each and every one on team Super Soldier has durability that can content with Parker's damage output far more than he can theirs. Need proof?

Cheers.

I'll come back to this later with my reply!

Team 2 takes this due to healing factors and ability to free each other from webbing.

Probably not for a majority win though. I can't see it happening.

Bear in mind that the spiders team is holding back. How are they going to win vs a team that can cut each other out of webbs and outlast them due to healing factors? They can hit wolverine or deadpool or even Deathstroke all they wan't but they will simply heal back, or take the damage due to armor. It is a fight vs people with mores and people without.

Deadpool's not here.

Kaine will not really be holding back. His morals are kinda questionable. He is still influenced by The Other and has his stingers. He dropped Wolverine by piercing him through the heart with one. Logan might have let it happen, but Kaine is fast enough to do some serious damage and is not limited to just blunt force.

Ult. Spidey can stun any one of them as well. Then there are pellets et. al. (horizon labs tech), area of effect webbing ...

Above all, I mean, what are the Spider's going to be collectively doing while teammates aid one another to escape webbing? It's not like they're going to respect the "timeout", sit by, and let it go down that way. That said, apparently, Black Panther has a teleporter now. I'm not sure how it works or whether it can be considered effective to help him escape webbing. Maybe @jashro44 can help clarify.

I, by no means, think it will be easy. And I do not think the Spiders can just web em all up easy as pie. Certain of them will escape and will come to one another's aid. But not for a majority win IMHO.

Once Miles goes down via lack of experience Team 2 will win,but if team 1 takes out one of the soldiers they will dominate the rest.

We have some of the most tactical minds on the super solder side. all of them have enough durability and/or healing factor to deal with the Spiders. Most of the Spiders have morals which prevent them from going all out. While Deathtroke, Blackpanther*, Captain America, and Wolverine are battle hardened by war, they are not so forgiving. The simple matter is, everyone but Captain America have melee weapons that could simply kill one of the spiders if they manage to hit them. Have a look at Black Panthers weapons, simply nasty, as well as Wolverine's claws, Deathstroke's promethium sword, are one hit kills if they get a good hit. The super soldier team are fast enough to dodge webbing most of the time, and can definitely cut a teamate out, heck, a simply grenade will give enough time to cut someone out. Everyone, minus Captain America has extreme blunt force durability, and Captain America has a shield, which won't be as effective as armor, but can be used offensively. So blunt force will be a hard way to earn victory, and the spiders don't have enough durability to keep a sword from cutting them. I think the spiders will have their best chance at a win right at first, since Team two can probably outlast them. So we have people who have extreme durability, nasty weapons, better tactics, endurance, while team 1 is faster, stronger, mostly blunt force attacks.

Have you been reading my posts? I have not disagreed with any of that. Fact is, you've said nothing to address why I give the Spider team a slight majority win. Avoidance coupled with their collective ability to incapacitate. I said at the outset if the Spiders make this a brawl, they will lose. They are fast enough, evasive enough, versatile and clever enough to take a slight majority due to incapacitation. Again, you've said nothing to refute this, and nothing that I have not already said multiple times over.

That's a great fight. I think the Spiders take this but it's a very close call.

@heraldofganthet: I'll reserve judgment on this part of your statement until his Venom Sting's effect on either Adamantium and/or Vibranium have been established. Considering that Promethium is an easy analogue for Adamantium in terms of its durability, and Nth Metal follows its own set of rules, Deathstroke's armor (depending on which version is being used here) should be considered off limits to this particular attack.

i understand your reasoning for his armor and the venom blasts. also im not a super expert on deathstroke so can you tell me if all of his body is covered in the promethium armor.

And thanks i wanted my username to be both funny and awsome. I should make power rangers battle thread

If we're gonna do this, can we do this as CaV? One, because this thread is boring me. Two, because it would be much more interesting if we did a CaV without people interrupting and adding needless conjecture. Three, because you have an "elitist's" mentality, and I can stay more focused if it's just me and you. I don't think I'm the victim, but you are the one who started this when you couldn't just let me say that a blood lusted spiderman would solo the super soldiers. It's not that you can't disagree with me, it's that YOU can't force me to believe something that I don't want to believe in, no matter how illogical my comments may sound. And then after we had moved on, you just had to start more trouble. I will admit that my previous comments had been retarded, but that's no reason for you to start crap. So, if you want to do a CaV thread, me vs. you, that's fine. But otherwise, I'm done doing this.

@106me:

If we're gonna do this, can we do this as CaV? One, because this thread is boring me. Two, because it would be much more interesting if we did a CaV without people interrupting and adding needless conjecture. Three, because you have an "elitist's" mentality, and I can stay more focused if it's just me and you. I don't think I'm the victim, but you are the one who started this when you couldn't just let me say that a blood lusted spiderman would solo the super soldiers. It's not that you can't disagree with me, it's that YOU can't force me to believe something that I don't want to believe in, no matter how illogical my comments may sound. And then after we had moved on, you just had to start more trouble. I will admit that my previous comments had been retarded, but that's no reason for you to start crap. So, if you want to do a CaV thread, me vs. you, that's fine. But otherwise, I'm done doing this.

You know.. admitting you're wrong works too.

This is your logic right now:

Me: The sky is blue

You:Nope, the sky is clearly pink, this is a mismatch

Me:What makes you say that? I think personally *insert rant about the ocean reflecting off the sun with a couple of links to sources*

You:WHY ARE YOU BULLYING ME IM ENTITLED TO MY RETARDED OPINION AND IT'S ALL A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE. THE SKY IS PINK BECAUSE IT LOOKS PINK AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE MY WAY OF THINKING

Note: You said your opinion was retarded, not me.

I never said I was being bullied, nor would I consider myself innocent. I already admitted I was wrong several times. Not about spiderman being able to solo the soldiers, but about my rant and other comments.

Based on you being entitled to your own opinion, you're not wrong. Based on on panel evidence showing Wolverine, alone, being a match for a serious minded Spider-Man (for example), and based on you having no evidence, no relevant feats, to support your claim that Parker can solo all four antagonists, coupled with the fact there exists a ton of evidence to the contrary, you are, in the objective sense, most certainly wrong in your stance.

And no thank you. I have absolutely no interest to begin a debate elsewhere with someone so obstinate and dedicated to holding onto unsupportable claims. You refuse to budge, so debating with you will no doubt prove an exercise in complete futility. I will, however, continue to debate the point herein with arguments, supported by feats, refuting every claim you make. Again, you want me to prove anything else through showings, you have but to ask.

For the record, I "started" nothing. You made a claim, I refuted it (this forum is designed for such). You stick to your claim, despite all evidence and popular opinion to the contrary, I keep refuting it. And so the story goes. You wish to stop the cycle because it "bores you", then simply move on and stop making claims riddled with fallacy that I will continue to feel the need to refute. In others words, do what you keep saying you'll do and move on ... knowing forevermore in the very back of your mind that Spider-Man cannot solo this team of Super Soldiers. In fact, despite the fact he may win a majority, he has his hands full with any one of them.

@super_soldierxii: So then, all of this is personal? If I admitted I was wrong for something that was wrong, shouldn't you be over this? And why can't you just follow your own advice? Just because I say something doesn't mean you HAVE to respond to it. Like I said, you have the child's mentality of not being able to let something go, as you seem forever determined to put me down about my opinions. I can't believe you would be so childish as to be angry over not being able to change my mind. If you think that my opinions are wrong, then that's fine. But don't resort to the elitist's mentality and try to put yourself above me just because you don't like me or what I say. I'm officially done responding to you, not only on this thread, but on the entire forum.

@106me: because wolverine solo's all 4 of them captain takes everyone of them 1 on 1 black panther has a chance and deathstroke is overkill

Dude, stop derailing this thread and move on. Do you not see the irony in claiming that I do not want to let go here? I wanted to debate the issue, not get all hurt feelings over it. Don't worry about it. No need to be upset. And do feel free to ignore me all you like. I do apologize, as judging your reactions, I believe I may have overestimated how old you are IRL.

It's all good. Just move on.

@thebrownpowerranger:

i understand your reasoning for his armor and the venom blasts. also im not a super expert on deathstroke so can you tell me if all of his body is covered in the promethium armor.

And thanks i wanted my username to be both funny and awsome. I should make power rangers battle thread

Deathstroke's armor covers all of his body, excluding his head (which, now that I think about it is fairly commonplace among comic characters, so it shouldn't be counted against Slade too much). And I'm personally hoping you go through with your idea for a Power Rangers thread.

You'll have to provide some stats for them though (strength/speed/durability feats, weapon(s) damage potential, etc..) in order to have them compete successfully here against the Big 3 (DC, Marvel, Image). Good luck to you though. I hope you get after it. By the way, "Welcome to the 'Vine"!

@cable_extreme: @super_soldierxii: Yes Black Panther does have a telporter. I think it could be effective against webbing. All though keep in mind he also has lost the vibranium suit.

Full scans are in post #102 if you guys want to see the cloaking device and force field as well.

@heraldofganthet: By the way, "Welcome to the 'Vine"!

Thanks.

I'm hoping there is sarcasm or irony here that I am just not understanding.

Wolverine solos? Um, wow.............................

Yeah, I'm assuming troll or sarcasm. But you can never be sure on the internet. Wolverine is a handful for any one of these guys, he may even take some of them one on one (it can be argued). But soloing all four is a very big statement.

@granitesoldier: Adamantium skeletion + his regeneration how could these clowns possibly stop him ? + if he goes frenzy its over for them.

I can see Super Soldiers winning in an extremely tough fight. 5.5/10 even.

With Slade's pre-52 feats coming in to play.

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Holds his own against both Green Lantern and Aquaman

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Fights a group of Black Lanterns

Not to mention him consistently soloing teams like the Teen Titans and JL members. Nth Metal armour, gives him better physical stats.

@jashro44: Is there a respect thread for current BP? Or is your BP respect pretty much the majority there is on him?

I must say, I'm giving this to the Super Soldiers. Really, there are only 3 main advantages that the Spiders have that the Soldiers should be able to bypass and those are speed, strength and precog. Now, speed-wise, it's debatable whether or not they should have a problem tagging the Spider-Men. I'd say it's more than possible, seeing as how they've all been able to tag Pete before and while Deathstroke has never fought Spider-Man he's fought the Flashes a few times and been able to tag them so he shouldn't have much trouble tagging the Spiders. Another difference is the massive skill gap between them. The super soldiers are some of the greatest combatants in their respected Universes. The Spiders aren't slouches in combat, but obviously Miles Morales isn't really all that skilled, Peter's level of fighting skill has always been questionable, Kaine doesn't really bring anything that the super soldiers haven't seen already and I'm not sure of Spidey 2099, I've never seen any of his feats or read his comics. Another thing is that they're all very, very durable. None of them are getting KOed any time soon by the Spiders, even BP if he's got the Vibranium suit. Ultimately the Super Soldiers level of skill and intelligence should let them beat the Spiders.

I have a few scans of current black panther on page 2 (along with some more scans of pre current).

Spider-Man alone has stopped enemies more powerful than Wolverine with his webs, and held them. They don't need to take him out by blunt force.

I forgot about Deathstroke's blast staff.

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Was able to temporarily blind Superman.