No prep, random encounter. No Knowledge of each other.
Spidey has standard equipment/abilities.
Lee has standard abilities and ninja tools (kunai, shuriken, a few paperbombs), a small bottle of sake which is enough to get him drunk, can open up to 5th gate, starts fight with his leg training weights on.
Fight takes place in a small village with 2 to 3 story buildings, people going about their daily lives before the fight starts.
Win by death or KO.
Some things to consider:
Spidermans spidey sense can be outdone if the opponent can move faster than he can react.
It is also up to him to perceive danger and react in kind.
By the same token thanks to spider sense stealth is a non factor against him.
No stray bullet lazy writing like in the latest movie.
From what looked up in 5 minutes, yes Rock Lee is faster than a bullet. Gaara's shield is fast enough to protect him from explosions which can range from 1800-8000m/s depending on the makeup of whats being detonated. Assuming that his shield can respond to 1800m/s, Rock Lee would have to move faster than that speed which is roughly 4,026 mph to get past gaara's defense. A bullet shot from a handgun moves at about 3000ft/s or 2045 mph. Basically Rock Lee is faster than a bullet without his weights on.
@tohoma: I don't know, does Lee loses his speed while drunk? I think i do recall him fighting a lot slower against the guy who uses his spine as a sword i can't remember his name.
@ghostravage: During his fight with Kimmimaro he wasn't as fast as his fight with Gaara probably due to him being fresh out of surgery or he still had his weights on. But nonetheless the fight was pretty impressive along with his speed.
@tohoma: That fight was epic man... I love Kid Lee fights. Anyway, no, drunk style Lee loses to Spiderman. Spider Sense and fighting style equally weird. Powers grant spiderman a huge edge in this case.
A base lee with weights on is fast as hell and enough to dig out tree trunks before sound speed movement hits him.
Weightless lee is quite faster than that, and is able to attack faster than gaara's sand shield, unquantifiable.
Primary/initial lotus, or gate 1 lee is literally five times all of that, on panel.
hidden lotus, or 2-3 rd gate lee is.. well, not shown.
Fourth gate lee is strong enough destroy the floor arena with a step, and to hit gaara mid-air repeatedly from several direction.
Fifth gate only showed one punch, sadly.
I'd scale spiderman upto Hidden lotus lee at max. We can comfortably say his insane speed should overwhelm spider-sense at this point, and his striking strength and taijutsu should be able to take him down handily.
Before that, lee may have the speed advantage, but spiderman has spider sense to counter.. upto what speed he can react? idk.
But as the op says he can go upto five gates, Win goes rather clearly to him.
On that note, I hate that lee got almost nothing to do in shippuden besides getting trapped by a water bunshin..
@dextersinister: Their hit strength has what to do with their speed? which is the point I was making: Lee can't move faster than Spider-Man can react. And if we're talking about durability Spider-Man has a decisive edge on Lee as Spider-Man's damage soak is damn near legendary.
@princearagorn1: It's called a parallel...so yes they are relevant. Spider-Man can easily react to super sonic+ threats on reactions and hypesonic one's with his Spider-Sense. Lee isn't going to overwhelm his Spider-Sense and he's not going to be able to blitz him, I repeat Spider-Man wins.
It's not parallel at all. Scans saying he caught the speedster going all out? proof that they can utilize whole portion of their speed in combat and not just accelerate? Speedsters are very inconsistant in general, using them as a reaction feat it useless. You get deathstroke being 'quicker where it counts' that flash.
And even assuming he reacted to supersonic attacks, that doesn't put him anywhere above weightless lee (faster than dosu's sound speed, and faster than gaara's faster-than-explosions sand)
And initial lotus lee is five times that, with quite good striking strength. We can agree that spiderman will be able to fight on par with him, though.
Spiderman isn't going to fight hidden lotus lee, initial lotus is the maximum he can fight. Op allows lee to go even higher than that, making it a stomp. Try again.
Saying something is 'Faster than an explosion' is a poor speed feat, explosions vary wildely depending on several factors; the medium they travel through, the source of the explosion, the amount of matter involved, etc. And that Deathstroke example is pure PIS and we all know that. The main feat Lee has that can you know be measured is his battle against Dossu, him outrunning sand or being able to Blitz Garra don't mean too much.
4,000 FPS That feat alone puts his reactions at ~ Mach 3.55 well above the sonic level of reaction ability and as anyone who's read Spider-Man knows dodging a sniper bullet isn't even close to his ceiling in terms of reactions as he can dance around lightning, lasers etc, etc. The only way Lee outpaces Spidey is if he is in the well, well over hypersonic range and he's not.
@sovereign91001: We're taking the low end of the explosion, actually. And there's nothing saying it was anywhere near the sand's full speed, as it moved far faster later in the series.
The main feat you're talking about is done by weighted lee, without any gates. putting him around mach 1. Then he gets the boost of loosing the weights, and is much faster than gaara's sand, but still unquantifiable.
But then, he gets the initial lotus boost of five times. Spiderman barely dodged the 4000 fps bullet, with the black suit, and that surprised kraven. "He isn't supposed to be that fast". Nothing suggests he can suddenly react to initial lotus lee.. But I'm giving him that he might be able to.
@princearagorn1: Barely dodged my foot, that was a clean dodge, don't try and lowball it, the black suit has nothing to do with that as it's a cloth version from Grim Hunt, not the symbiote (and the symbiote never enhanced his speed anyway fyi) and that's not Kraven, it's his son who has little working knowledge of Spider-Man (other than mainly second hand) so him saying Spider-Man shouldn't be that fast means absolutely nothing.
Shall I post feats of him leaping between lightning bolts and lasers, outpacing targeting computers, catching bullets, fighting people who can attack faster than he can think and generally going through his paces at the higher end of his feats? Cause I have them and I'm familiar with both of these character's. There is no proof that Lee can outpace Spider-Man, even with a five times increase that puts Lee at about hypersonic speed, which is nothing Spider-Man can't react to. He's fought hypesonic capable foes, dodged hypersonic projectiles etc.
And we're talking just reactions, once you factor that with Spider-Man's gear he goes from winning to taking a clear majority.
@princearagorn1: And while we're at it, how fast exactly is the 'low end' of an explosion? cause from my knowledge explosions can range from a few hundred mphs all the way up to light speed.
Barely dodged my foot, that was a clean dodge, don't try and lowball it, the black suit has nothing to do with that as it's a cloth version from Grim Hunt, not the symbiote (and the symbiote never enhanced his speed anyway fyi) and that's not Kraven, it's his son
I see, my bad. But it doesn't change the fact that he isn't supposed to be fast enough to dodge it.
Shall I post feats of him leaping between lightning bolts and lasers, outpacing targeting computers, catching bullets, fighting people who can attack faster than he can think and generally going through his paces at the higher end of his feats? Cause I have them and I'm familiar with both of these character's. There is no proof that Lee can outpace Spider-Man, even with a five times increase that puts Lee at about hypersonic speed, which is nothing Spider-Man can't react to. He's fought hypesonic capable foes, dodged hypersonic projectiles etc.
Sure, why not. You'll also have to prove it wasn't aim dodging, which seems so, because lasers move at light speed. if he's dodging lazers and lightening bolts in the same way as bullets, it proves that it's aim dodging, otherwise spiderman has relativistic reactions.
And we're talking just reactions, once you factor that with Spider-Man's gear he goes from winning to taking a clear majority.
We're just agreeing that spiderman can possibly keep up with gate 1 lee. Not that he can land a hit on him. The match is fair with gears.
But lee can go higher gates than 1, making it a clear win for him.
And while we're at it, how fast exactly is the 'low end' of an explosion? cause from my knowledge explosions can range from a few hundred mphs all the way up to light speed.
Explosions go from 1800-8000 mps, according to tohoma, which I agree with. Different explosives have different rates, obviously. I looked into that before for a thread, standard explosions are somewhere in the middle of that range. That is, mach 4.5 to mach 24. And I don't know where you're getting the lightspeed explosion, but it's really, really wrong, unless you're talking about cosmic scale explosions..
And most importantly:
Standard Reaction speed is generally far faster than standard movement speed of people, that's how we can keep up with speeds which we can't move at. Keep in mind We're arguing spiderman reflex speed vs lee's movement speed.
Note: Movement speed can be faster when you can accelerate continuously, like superman. or get a huge boost to movement speed specifically, like genin kakashi (he couldn't keep up with his own raikiri-amplified speed, so the technique was forbidden.. till he got sharingan)
@dextersinister: Their hit strength has what to do with their speed? which is the point I was making: Lee can't move faster than Spider-Man can react. And if we're talking about durability Spider-Man has a decisive edge on Lee as Spider-Man's damage soak is damn near legendary.
Nothing but it isn't close to Lee's
Only if you measure by respect threads considering that a normal punch can still hurt him as evidenced by Quicksilver, Speed Demon and Spot.
But it doesn't change the fact that he isn't supposed to be fast enough to dodge it.
Shouldn't be fast enough, based on what, second hand knowledge from Kraven's son or the decades of feats that disagree with you? Just how familiar are you with Spider-Man out of curiosity because I'm sure that almost everyone who is familar with him isn't going to argue that, the feat I posted is anywhere close to being out of his purview.
Sure, why not. You'll also have to prove it wasn't aim dodging, which seems so, because lasers move at light speed. if he's dodging lazers and lightening bolts in the same way as bullets, it proves that it's aim dodging, otherwise spiderman has relativistic reactions.
Do you know how his Spider-Sense works? He moves before he thinks, before he knows what the danger is. He's moving before the first shot is ever even fired off, combine that with reflexes 40 times greater than human and you have why he can dodge laser and lightning and projectiles or opponents without looking at them. He can track opponets off the Spider-Sense alone, without sight, (like in his fights with Daken and the Vulture) he was able to fight Iron Fist in the dark. He's no look dodged Electro's lightning more times than I can count, he doesn't need to aim dodge, his Spider sense takes care of all of that. This isn't Batman, Hawkeye or Nightwing where their bodie's speed is slower than a bullet and their dodging of said projectiles needs to be explained through aim dodging, Spider-Man is fast enough that he can actually dodge them (and catch them, even when he's sick).
Explosions go from 1800-8000 mps, according to tohoma, which I agree with. Different explosives have different rates, obviously. I looked into that before for a thread, standard explosions are somewhere in the middle of that range. That is, mach 4.5 to mach 24. And I don't know where you're getting the lightspeed explosion, but it's really, really wrong, unless you're talking about cosmic scale explosions..
I was and cosmic explosions (gamma ray bursts etc.) are explosions as well and as you were rather vague about it I gave the highest possible ceiling. I'm curious using your scale for a moment where do you put Lee's speed for this match? Mach 5,10, 15, 20 etc.
@dextersinister: And he tanks hits from Ms. Marvel, Rhino, Absorbing Man, Morlun, Hulk, Juggs, Colossus, PF Colossus etc. Peter's resistance to damage is a huge part of his character and has to do with his never say die attitude and has been touched on dozens of times throughout his publication history. And why would you even bring low showings into a debate, you should assume that both characters are fighting at their best, not to mention if you want to disregard what I listed as high showings, His average showings are much better than what you're listing.
Shouldn't be fast enough, based on what, second hand knowledge from Kraven's son or the decades of feats that disagree with you? Just how familiar are you with Spider-Man out of curiosity because I'm sure that almost everyone who is familar with him isn't going to argue that, the feat I posted is anywhere close to being out of his purview.
So you're saying the statement in question is worthless?
I will help you with some speed concepts before:
The explaination is lengthy, bear with it:
Spiderman's spider sense allows him to aim dodge anything that can't alter it's trajectory, including even lasers. But when he actually has to react to it, he needs a lot of concentration:
This is exactly what he should be referring to. He needs a lot of concentration to actually see and react to bullets. Note that bullets move at around 450 mps, I think? maybe upto mach 2 high quality, and around 1200 mps using snipers.
Now: lasers and lightening (He dodged electro's lightening, in fact, do we have a statement that it only differs from real lightening in scale?)
Speed of lasers: around 300,000 kmps, over mach 880,000.
Speed of lightening: Standard low end: 5600 kmps, over mach 15000.
Speed of bullet: Around mach 1-3.
Speed of humans pressing triggers: much lower.
He can aim dodge anything, with spider sense, he doesn't even need to see it. This applies to anything that moves the same way, always.
But in order to actually react to something, or catch it, or block it, he needs focus. This puts him around mach 2 in reflexes. What was being referred to in the first scan, was this. Sniper bullets, like mach 4 aren't easy to react, but it's a piece of cake when aim dodging.
So, he can aim dodge lazers, and bullets, and lightening and so on, anything with a fixed trajectory, but if he only uses actual reflexes, he is somewhere around mach 1-3.
now for the forty times boost. Yes, the forty times boost allows him to react to bullets, I already agreed on that. But if you think the forty times boost and spider sense will allow him to actually dodge (not aim-dodge) lightening or light speeds, about 15000 and 1000000 times faster, something's clearly wrong.
You can't aim dodge a person, though. He doesn't move in a fixed trajectory. You need to use your actual reflexes when fighting a person one on one. This is the 'combat speed', as it referred by a huge number of people. (Specially seen in goku vs superman debates)
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I was and cosmic explosions (gamma ray bursts etc.) are explosions as well and as you were rather vague about it I gave the highest possible ceiling. I'm curious using your scale for a moment where do you put Lee's speed for this match? Mach 5,10, 15, 20 etc.
Well, the only lee we can actually more or less quantify is initial lotus lee. As we know three things clearly:
1. base weighted lee can more or less match sound speed moves. somewhere near, possibly a little lower or higher than mach 1.
2. Removing the weights give him quite a boost (those things were quite heavy, and it was pretty clear in the fight itself) As the boost is completely unquantifiable, we take the lowest end possible: Assure that this lee has to be at least mach 1 for sure, eliminating the doubt.
3. Initial lotus, or gate 1, gives him a five times boost. Making him, at least, mach 5.
Over that, we have nothing to scale on. We don't know how much the next gates boost, is it consistant with 5x, or is it 1.2x, or 100x, or 1.001 x.. nothing. So instead of getting into speculation, I prefer to stay at the first gate, and he should be considerably faster than spiderman here. That's why I'm siding with him.
@sovereign91001: People always say low showings as if they aren't relevant when they are just as relevant as the high showings you've mentioned. Blunt trauma is always incredibly fishy in comics considering non-powered main characters such as Batman or Hawkeye get thrown through walls or take hits from high end tonners but just like Superman get cut up just as easily as the next guy.
I've made this point multiple times. Fighting at best doesn't = high showings only, it simply means he won't forget to use his webs or be blindsided despite spider sense and it means Lee will use the best moves he can use safely from the start.
@princearagorn1: Woah, when were the gates said to be 5x speed? Especially gate 1? Is there a scan? I didn't know this at all. May have to drop out of a certain tournament I'm in......
@princearagorn1: Woah, when were the gates said to be 5x speed? Especially gate 1? Is there a scan? I didn't know this at all. May have to drop out of a certain tournament I'm in......
Normally, shinobi use 20% of their speed, due to restrictions from the brain to protect the body. The first gate, or initial lotus, removes this restriction:
Second gate is used for increasing the stamina, and getting a small healing factor, or extreme recovery. (which is why he recovered from gaara's hits after initial lotus, and continued to open the third gate)
It's basically preparation so that the user can enter inner lotus, or extreme lotus:
So it may not change a lot in stats department.
So we know that initial lotus boost is nearly five times, but we have no idea what is the boost from extreme lotus. At least from what I know, it's never been quantified in manga or anime..
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