Well, commenting from the OP's 1/10 chance for Kurt ... I'd personally give Nightcrawler more credit. He's superhumanly agilie, fast, ports instantly. And Kurt has something Peter doesn't. Bonafide hand to hand skill. His teammates (i.e. Wolverine & Cyclops) have been able to predict Kurt because they know him. They know his technique, how he moves ... and Logan's a bullet timer with enhanced senses and combat skill that allow him to tag speedsters. Spiderman himself has refered to Logan's senses as his spidersenses evil cousin. What Spiderman lacks in order to avoid Kurt's ports perfectly and without flaw are combat skill and knowledge on how Nightcrawler moves. And dammit people, Spidey is not unhittable. He gets hit. A lot. All the time. And no, it cannot all be PIS cuz then 50% of his books would be nothing but PIS. I don't want to read a Spiderman who can dodge everything without fault. I don't think Marvel intends him to be that anyway. You can have all the precog you want, all the speed, but without combat skills, you have a definite and glaring hole in your game. This fight is more interesting than most of us purport I believe...
@Super_SoldierXII: There is a difference between to what is supposed to be and what is is shown. Imagine spidey being untouchable in a every issue. That would be very boring. Writers need to make interesting battles, thus spidey should get some hits. A logical explanation is that he holds back and rarely fights at his best. But for the people who disagree with that, the second explanation is that writers want to have cool fights and not one sided ones. Spidey has already shows that if he uses his spider-sense at is full then he can not get tagged. Imagine when he has fought iron fist or shroud in the dark. He could not see them at all. So what was left to do? Completely focus on his spider-sense. What happened? They did not land a hit on him at all. So what do we assume that he can do when he completely focus on his spider-sense?
Also reading Amazing Spider-man # 653, makes me thing that is fair to assume that people with that specific sense can not get tagged. It's simple. Spidey has super human reflexes that allow him to see the strikes that are coming and the ability to know where his opponent will strike. You really don't need any skills when you have the reflexes and the knowledge to be a step ahead of your opponent.
( Btw, i'm not saying that Pete should not get any training. That would obviously make him more serious in his fights and more disciplined ) :)
Nightcrawler's speed and agility match Spidy. With his teleportation and sword, he could hack off Spidy's head. It can go either way.
Umm, what feats suggest that he is as fast or agile as spider-man. And where is it stated that he has his swords or that morals are off and he'll go for the kill? :)
@Super_SoldierXII: There is a difference between to what is supposed to be and what is is shown. Imagine spidey being untouchable in a every issue. That would be very boring. Writers need to make interesting battles, thus spidey should get some hits. A logical explanation is that he holds back and rarely fights at his best. But for the people who disagree with that, the second explanation is that writers want to have cool fights and not one sided ones. Spidey has already shows that if he uses his spider-sense at is full then he can not get tagged. Imagine when he has fought iron fist or shroud in the dark. He could not see them at all. So what was left to do? Completely focus on his spider-sense. What happened? They did not land a hit on him at all. So what do we assume that he can do when he completely focus on his spider-sense? Also reading Amazing Spider-man # 653, makes me thing that is fair to assume that people with that specific sense can not get tagged. It's simple. Spidey has super human reflexes that allow him to see the strikes that are coming and the ability to know where his opponent will strike. You really don't need any skills when you have the reflexes and the knowledge to be a step ahead of your opponent. ( Btw, i'm not saying that Pete should not get any training. That would obviously make him more serious in his fights and more disciplined ) :)
I agree with a lot of what you said. But despite his superhuman reflexes, and despite his precog, I believe you do need skills if you wish to defeat an opponent who is also superhumanly fast, and also vastly superior in hand to hand. You have to consider Spiderman's opponent when you make comments like that I believe. Take Cassandra Cain. She is skilled to the point of being able to read body language to predict her opponents moves. She doesn't have Spiderman's speed, but has the combat skills to counteract them. Spiderman doesn't have the combat skills, but has the speed. But neither are unhittable. If the opponent is fast enough, Cass will get tagged. If the opponent is skilled enough, so will Spidey. Again, Spiderman's ability to dodge depends on the opponent in question. Nightcrawler, with all his speed, reflexes, hand to hand and teleportation abilities ... he should and could tag Peter. Will he before Spiderman takes him out? Probably not a safe enough bet to give Kurt a majority win. But definitely more than 1/10. That's just harsh.
@Super_SoldierXII: I don't really believe that. Spidey has already shown the ability to dodge skilled opponents, without fighting at his best and using his precog at its full. I can't imagine why he could not be unhittable if he completely focused on his sense. Especially when it has already been proven that when he relies only on his sense in the proper way, even iron fist can not tag him and he has commented on spide'ys ability to know where his opponent will strike. Also, in a current spider-man issue( the one i have already mentioned above), iron fist and the rest of the Avengers could not lay a single hit on people/ bugs that had the same sixth sense that Pete has. And even iron fist has realized that the only reason he could not tag them is because they might have a similar sense to that of spidey. Considering all these, how spidey's powers should work and how they work when he is at his best and how other people comment on that, my personal opinion is that he should be untouchable. At least for a large amount of time.
Cassie is not really the best person to compare. Her reflexes and speed can not reach the super human stats, at the very best she is peak. Also, her body reading ability is not as accurate as spider-sense. Spider-senes let Pete know what his opponent will do. It can not really be tricked, because it's an actual precog. It can not really be tricked. Cassie's ability, it's just a speculation about what his opponent will do when she reads his movements. But a skilled and tactical opponent that know Cassie's ability can actually trick her, I hope you get my point.
As for that fight. If morals are on, i don't doubt that NC will tag Pete. Seriously, he is more than capable of doing it. But i don't believe his telepertation gives him any advantage, other than his own speed. Spidey can sense the direction of the danger. if Curt teleports behind him, at the very moment he does that, spidey will sense it and his super human reflexes will allow him to react fast.
And i agree with you 1/10 does not sound right. I will give to NC 3-4/ 10 IMO. =]
@Super_SoldierXII: I don't really believe that. Spidey has already shown the ability to dodge skilled opponents, without fighting at his best and using his precog at its full. I can't imagine why he could not be unhittable if he completely focused on his sense. Especially when it has already been proven that when he relies only on his sense in the proper way, even iron fist can not tag him and he has commented on spide'ys ability to know where his opponent will strike. Also, in a current spider-man issue( the one i have already mentioned above), iron fist and the rest of the Avengers could not lay a single hit on people/ bugs that had the same sixth sense that Pete has. And even iron fist has realized that the only reason he could not tag them is because they might have a similar sense to that of spidey. Considering all these, how spidey's powers should work and how they work when he is at his best and how other people comment on that, my personal opinion is that he should be untouchable. At least for a large amount of time. Cassie is not really the best person to compare. Her reflexes and speed can not reach the super human stats, at the very best she is peak. Also, her body reading ability is not as accurate as spider-sense. Spider-senes let Pete know what his opponent will do. It can not really be tricked, because it's an actual precog. It can not really be tricked. Cassie's ability, it's just a speculation about what his opponent will do when she reads his movements. But a skilled and tactical opponent that know Cassie's ability can actually trick her, I hope you get my point. As for that fight. If morals are on, i don't doubt that NC will tag Pete. Seriously, he is more than capable of doing it. But i don't believe his telepertation gives him any advantage, other than his own speed. Spidey can sense the direction of the danger. if Curt teleports behind him, at the very moment he does that, spidey will sense it and his super human reflexes will allow him to react fast. And i agree with you 1/10 does not sound right. I will give to NC 3-4/ 10 IMO. =]
In comics, he has been tagged by numerous skilled opponents. While yes, he has dodged them, he has also been hit and hurt by them. Outside of his usual rogues gallery there's Daredevil, Captain America, Wolverine and heck, even Punisher. And it's only your opinion that he wasn't 'fighting at his best' or using his spidersense at its fullest. This is an excuse. It's nothing more than an opinion with a lot of comic book proof to discredit it. Just because this weak theory has been spelled out once or twice in certain issues refering to a given battle, it does not make it a universal excuse everytime he gets hit; "Oh, ya, Captain America hit Spiderman because Spidey was, like, holding back". Nonesense. I would be very serious about dodging Scorpion, Kraven and Lizard because damn, getting hit has GOT to hurt! Spiderman is not unhittable regardless of opinion because he is consistently shown in comics as being very hittable. He's had high end showings, and low end ones. Just like every icon. We have to take these and find a just middle ground. It's as simple as that really. Anyway, I respect your opinion. Spiderman is a top tier character and deserves fans like yourself ... Spiderman beats Kurt. But not easily.
@Super_SoldierXII: The point though is that he had the ability to dodge them even when he was holding back. And several times i would say, Imagine if he is fighting at his best and completely rely on his sense. Half of the opponents you mention can barely hurt spider-man with their attacks. So he does not really bother to fight at his best. No, it's not my opinion that he holds back.It's something that spider-man himself has stated several times in his history. If you have read spider-man you should know that already. It's a known fact for spider-man that he holds back. Also, you are saying that he will fight at his best against captain america?? The guy that he worships even more so than anyone else? Are you serious now? Spider-man himself has stated that he did not want to fight him to begin with. But you are saying that he will fight at his best against any character that is weaker than him and can be killed by his hits? These are actual nonsense, not the fact that he hold back. As for Punisher, the guy has been against everyone. He gave trouble to DD, to Cap and even Wolverine. I'm not surprise that writers wanted him to give trouble to spidey. Oh and to show you how "well" written their fights are, in one of them spdey was tagged with knives. The giuy that can easily dodge numerous projectiles from Bullseye at the same time and the guy that dodges plenty of bullets from point blank, was tagbed by 2 freaking knives? WOW. As for Wolverine. Most of them time the never have a serious fight, except the one they had in the grave yard when Logan was unable to tag Pete until, he has let him do it( and before you say that this was stupid, Logan was not attacking him with his claws ). As for the rest fights, either spidey won't be aware he is fighting Logan, or he will be mad at hiM( something that can make him sloppy like in one of his fights with DD ) or it will be a training where he won't expect his teammate to stab him/ See? I can see that circumstance splay a big role when Logan tags Peter. Too bad that most of these opponents are either as fast or faster than spidey. Oh and spidey has never really had any trouble with scorpion. Even in one of their fights where spidey was supposed to be in a great disadvantage, not only he was not hit at all, but he beat him easily as well. As for Kraven, when spidey was still a noob, but he had to save his Aunt and Betty from sinister six, not only he was not tagged by Kraven, he was also dodging his tigers as well and the guy was still a noob, but his desire to save his aunt and Betty make him to fight completely at his best. Hell he was even dodging all of electro's attack and even sandman was unable to tag him. Consistently in comics, spidey gets tagged, but also consistently in comics, spidey holds back, Why should i buy the one but not buy the other? Spidey always shows great speed and the ability to be unhittable. Even in his fight with a bloodlusted Avengers Academy( i want you to note that he did not had his spider-sense ), he was dodging almost all of their hits. He was only tagged a few times and one of these hits was a sneak attack IIRC. He was even dodging electrical attacks from striker and at the same time was dodging a kick from Finesse ( a girl that has the ability to master martial arts in seconds as far as i know ). When he was brainwashed by Mr Negative, he was able to fight a team that had speed demon, spot, answer and several other characters and he beat them easily without getting tagged once. In ASM #563 he fought a whole team of villains( including Hydro-man ) and he soloed all of them without getting hit. And i can compare you his classic fights with Fisk with the one he had during back in black. He was usually holding back against him, thus he was getting tagged. But in BIB he was very serious and Fisk was unable to lay a hand on him. And i will mention again the instance with iron fist and shroud. When he fought them in the dark, obviously he could not see them. So, what was the most logical thing to do?Completely FOCUS on his spider-sense. The results? Not get hit at all. Also if skills really matter, then why iron fist was unable to hit any of the people that Smythe had in his bug army? I also respect your opinion and i understand your point, but IMO, there are plenty of showings that proves that spidey should be untouchable. Especially if i consider the fact that writers need to ignore somethings so they can have interesting fights. And i agree it won't be easy.
Anyway, I respect your opinion. Spiderman is a top tier character and deserves fans like yourself ...
@Super_SoldierXII: Sorry for the long post btw. :)
No worries. You make some good points. But still, I only partly agree. I will respectfully part ways with this by simply stating my opinion as follows; Spiderman's principle ability is his extreme elusiveness. He is extremely hard to hit. But I will never agree that he is, or should be, unhittable in anyway, shape, or form. Too much comic book history to discredit this theory. Further to this, my opinion is that his weakness is lack of martial ability. And despite speed and precog, this is a hole in his game that has been exploited. Quite simply, he has been hit many times, by many opponents and many times under favorable circumstances. Therefore, he is hittable. But again, you make a great argument and I do respect your opinion and think highly of Spidey as a character I love to read.
@Super_SoldierXII: OK, then. You have made some pretty good arguments as well, and i understand why you and some other people believe that spidey is not untouchable. Me on the other hand, i have i different point of view on that.
I have just seen plenty of spidey's feats against plenty of super villains and even skilled opponents that make me believe that.
But i respect your opinion as well. Great debate btw. :)
Nightcrawler is too unpredictable for Spiderman. Nightcrawler keeps his momentum when he teleports. This means he can start an attack, teleport and finish the attack. If I were Nightcrawler, this is how i would take down Spiderman. First, i would start up a double axe hammer and at the same time i would begin lunging my sword, under my pelvis, with my tail. Second, I would teleport close enough to do some damage. I believe Spiderman would not know if I were going to appear in front, behind, above, or on either side of him. Even if his spider sense allows him to know, I don't think he would be able to deal with both attacks. Nightcrawler for the win.
Nightcrawler is too unpredictable for Spiderman. Nightcrawler keeps his momentum when he teleports. This means he can start an attack, teleport and finish the attack. If I were Nightcrawler, this is how i would take down Spiderman. First, i would start up a double axe hammer and at the same time i would begin lunging my sword, under my pelvis, with my tail. Second, I would teleport close enough to do some damage. I believe Spiderman would not know if I were going to appear in front, behind, above, or on either side of him. Even if his spider sense allows him to know, I don't think he would be able to deal with both attacks. Nightcrawler for the win.
Curt is not too unpredictable for a guy who can sense where he will teleport. Spidey has proven that when he uses his spider-sense properly, he can predict his opponents' moves( Shadowland Daredevil. Spidey uses his spider-sense to figure out where he will jump ). But even if we assume that he won't use his spider-sense to predict his moves, he can still know where he will teleport due to the fact that he can sense the direction of the danger. That's why no one can sneak up on him. Also, your way of thinking is wrong. We don't speculate how a fight will go based on what WE will do, but what the actual character will do it. Nightcralwer, won;t use any axes or swords, because the OP does not state that he has any. And also, the characters are not bloodlsuted( good for nightcrawler ), so he won't go for the kill. And an additional information. Curt's attacks are not instantaneous. Iron fist has stated that there is a second between the brimstone stench of his materialization and his attack. That second is more tan enough for Peter to sense Curt's location. http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/iron-fist/108-413423/727367_ironfist15enterthexmen131in_super/105-1387206/
@spidey 15: Well... does Spiderman have his spidey sense? Because i just read that he doesn't have it anymore. Does the OP state that he does? Anyways, Nightcrawler could just teleport Spiderman underwater and perform a series of rapid jumps until spidy suffocates.
@spidey 15: Well... does Spiderman have his spidey sense? Because i just read that he doesn't have it anymore. Does the OP state that he does? Anyways, Nightcrawler could just teleport Spiderman underwater and perform a series of rapid jumps until spidy suffocates.
Spider-man does not have his spider-sense anymore but that does not really matter anyway. When the thread was made, spidey still had his spider-sense and according to rules, we are going by character's current stats, at the time that the thread was made. So in this fight he has his sixth sense. Nightcrawler won't be able to do what you said. Also, it's not in his character to do at as well. Morals are on and he won't go for the kill. Not that it matters, since he won't be able to do it due to Pete's spider-sense. :)
Spider-Man. Both have incredible agility & acrobatics, but I believe Spidey has the advantage in the strength department. Speed could be debatable, but the Spidey-sense should be a key element in this, even with Nightcrawler 'porting, Pete should be able to sense it and react before Nightcrawler has time to take him off guard.
@Buckshot: Im going to go with Spiderman. Only because of Spidermans strength over Nightcrawler and because he has Spidey-sense. I think he will be able to predict where Night-Crawlers next attack is coming from.
I forgot current Spider-Man doesn't have a spider-sense (doesn't matter for this thread since it was made long before he lost it). Still... that could make for an interesting fight now.
Kurt has much better training, is equally agile and fast as Peter and with his teleporting, arguably more tricky and manueverable. If he gets a hold of Spidy, he can teleport with him until he tires or like someone else said, leave him in the bottom of the ocean.
I don't see the logic in that. Kurt has much better training, is equally agile and fast as Peter and with his teleporting, arguably more tricky and manueverable. If he gets a hold of Spidy, he can teleport with him until he tires or like someone else said, leave him in the bottom of the ocean.
Did you not read what Spidey 15 said? If Peter is going all out, he'll know where Nightcrawler is going to teleport before he even disappears. Nightcrawler tries to 'port behind Peter and grab him? Peter will be ready for it. And, for the record, Nightcrawler is not quite as agile as Spider-Man is, and not NEARLY as fast.
@Edgeworth_11: First, unless you have scans to support that claim, Kurt is not equal to Pete in terms of speed and agility.
His teleportation won't give him any advantage in that fight at all. Check this post to see why.
Curt is not too unpredictable for a guy who can sense where he will teleport. Spidey has proven that when he uses his spider-sense properly, he can predict his opponents' moves( Shadowland Daredevil. Spidey uses his spider-sense to figure out where he will jump ). But even if we assume that he won't use his spider-sense to predict his moves, he can still know where he will teleport due to the fact that he can sense the direction of the danger. That's why no one can sneak up on him. Also, your way of thinking is wrong. We don't speculate how a fight will go based on what WE will do, but what the actual character will do it. Nightcralwer, won;t use any axes or swords, because the OP does not state that he has any. And also, the characters are not bloodlsuted( good for nightcrawler ), so he won't go for the kill. And an additional information. Curt's attacks are not instantaneous. Iron fist has stated that there is a second between the brimstone stench of his materialization and his attack. That second is more tan enough for Peter to sense Curt's location. http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/spidey_15/iron-fist/108-413423/727367_ironfist15enterthexmen131in_super/105-1387206/
Spidey wins for being physically better, having the spider-sense and for beating better fighters than Curt. :)
I don't see the logic in that. Kurt has much better training, is equally agile and fast as Peter and with his teleporting, arguably more tricky and manueverable. If he gets a hold of Spidy, he can teleport with him until he tires or like someone else said, leave him in the bottom of the ocean.
Did you not read what Spidey 15 said? If Peter is going all out, he'll know where Nightcrawler is going to teleport before he even disappears. Nightcrawler tries to 'port behind Peter and grab him? Peter will be ready for it. And, for the record, Nightcrawler is not quite as agile as Spider-Man is, and not NEARLY as fast.
Thanks for the help. Though even with morals, he might not try to predict where NC will appear, but he since NC's attack is not really instantaneous, i believe spidey will be able to sense and react to his attack at the very second he has the chance to do it. What do you think? :)
I don't see the logic in that. Kurt has much better training, is equally agile and fast as Peter and with his teleporting, arguably more tricky and manueverable. If he gets a hold of Spidy, he can teleport with him until he tires or like someone else said, leave him in the bottom of the ocean.
Did you not read what Spidey 15 said? If Peter is going all out, he'll know where Nightcrawler is going to teleport before he even disappears. Nightcrawler tries to 'port behind Peter and grab him? Peter will be ready for it. And, for the record, Nightcrawler is not quite as agile as Spider-Man is, and not NEARLY as fast.
Thanks for the help. Though even with morals, he might not try to predict where NC will appear, but he since NC's attack is not really instantaneous, i believe spidey will be able to sense and react to his attack at the very second he has the chance to do it. What do you think? :)
I think that sounds right. Nightcrawler's teleportation is nearly instantaneous, but then again so is gunfire, and Spider-Man never has any problems with guns.
If Kurt doesnt hold back, he takes this and he has severeal ways to do it. But Spidy fan boys will be fan boys.
I love how instead of making an argument you are just calling us fanboys and bla bla bla. Oh and for your information, Prodigy is not a spider-man fanboy. Actually he is a nightcrawler fanboy.... :)
If Kurt doesnt hold back, he takes this and he has severeal ways to do it. But Spidy fan boys will be fan boys.
If you want to call us fanboys, that's all your thing. But the thing is, you have provided nothing to counter our arguments. Unless you can actually tell us why we're wrong, I have no reason to believe Nightcrawler would win.
And, as Spidey 15 has already said, I am a huge Nightcrawler fan. He's my number one favorite comic character. But, despite my fandom, I know there are some fights he just can't win.
You probably think he can take Shaw too. But since you didn't post there, I guess not very confident you are lol
No i don't believe he can take Shaw too and i don't see how is this relevant to the thread. If you are so sure that NC will be able to beat spidey with no morals then why don't you try to prove it.
I see this as a long fight, with Spider-Man dodging Kurt's attacks, and Kurt teleporting away from Spider-Man's. Even if Kurt gets a hit, Spidey's durability means it shouldn't do much, and his strength means Nightcrawler should fear what comes next. But, personally, I see Kurt tiring long before he manages a hit against someone who's fought the Hulk, and lived to tell about it. I understand Peter's never beat Ol' Greenskin, but how many Spider-Man-level characters could do that? Spidey's done it at least twice. Nightcrawler loses this, 7/10 to Spidey.
If it's morals on...Nightcrawler could maybe take this 1/10 largely due to Spider Sense.
Morals off...Nightcrawler would likely take this 8/10 by teleporting Spiderman into a solid object, killing him. All it would take would be for Spider Man to mess up ONCE.
If it's morals on...Nightcrawler could maybe take this 1/10 largely due to Spider Sense.
Morals off...Nightcrawler would likely take this 8/10 by teleporting Spiderman into a solid object, killing him. All it would take would be for Spider Man to mess up ONCE.
if it's morals off spiderman will just kill him before he can teleport.
If it's morals on...Nightcrawler could maybe take this 1/10 largely due to Spider Sense.
Morals off...Nightcrawler would likely take this 8/10 by teleporting Spiderman into a solid object, killing him. All it would take would be for Spider Man to mess up ONCE.
if it's morals off spiderman will just kill him before he can teleport.
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