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#1 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Superior Spiderman (Peter)

  • No morals.
  • Fight to KO.
  • Takes place in downtown L.A.
  • Random Encounter
  • Each team gets to plan a ten minute strategy
#2 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

No morals? Nightcrawler is the weak link as DD and Spidey can both sense him before he's coming and react to him, both are more skilled than Nightcrawler as well. Peter should be able to kill him pretty easily once he teleports anywhere near him. IF is tough, but no morals Spiderman can probably kill him with a few punches, Daredevil needs to distract him a little so Peter can get to him.

Gonna go with Spidey and DD here but no morals IF vs no morals Spidey is a tough one.

#3 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist and Night Crawler.

If it is Nightcrawler vs Daredevil and Iron Fist vs Spiderman, Iron fist beats Spiderman Nightcrawler beats Daredevil.

If it is Nightcrawler vs Spiderman and Daredevil vs Iron Fist, Nightcrawler loses in a good fight and Danny obliterates DD. Danny beats Spiderman, already weakened by his fight with NC.

i would say team 2, for an 8/10 win

#4 Posted by pooty (11059 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. No morals IF makes sure no one gets close to him. Team IF wins

#5 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara said:

Iron Fist and Night Crawler.

If it is Nightcrawler vs Daredevil and Iron Fist vs Spiderman, Iron fist beats Spiderman Nightcrawler beats Daredevil.

If it is Nightcrawler vs Spiderman and Daredevil vs Iron Fist, Nightcrawler loses in a good fight and Danny obliterates DD. Danny beats Spiderman, already weakened by his fight with NC.

i would say team 2, for an 8/10 win

agree that Nightcrawler can prob take Murdock alone, but Spidey is there to help out, and Spidey is much faster than Kurt, as long as they stay close together Spidey should be able to handle Kurt for DD. Also how does Fist defeat Spiderman for an 8 out of 10 win?

#6 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man and daredevil. Either Spider-Man and daredevil can beat nightcrawler and I would say Spider-Man can definitely beat iron fist under these conditions.

#7 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer: If the gang up on one person, they are left vulnerable to attack from others. So i am assuming that they are going to try and take each other straight up, in 2, 1v1 fights.

Daredevil cant see Nightcrawler coming. He doesn't have a Spider sense the same way that Peter does. He has a sense that is similar to echolocation, he can see everything that he hears around himself. All he will hear is a distant "BAMF" from Nightcrawler teleporting, and next thing he knows, its lights out.

Morals off Iron Fist can take peter because he is equally as fast, has a greater martial ability, and his striking power with morals off he makes Peter's striking power seem light... really light. Iron fist has shown the ability to stop and destroy bullet trains with punches, he even one-shotted the heli-carrier out of the sky. He has nearly equal speed, and greater martial ability, and that means that he will get his hits in. Even someone with Peter's durability can't take morals off punches from the IMMORTAL IRON FIST lol

I think this would be an amazing fight, but I'm sticking with my team 2 for the majority.

#8 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil has been able to sense nightcrawler before he bamfed in before. With morals off he takes nightcrawler out with a insta kill pressure point.

#9 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Daredevil has been able to sense nightcrawler before he bamfed in before. With morals off he takes nightcrawler out with a insta kill pressure point.

Do you have scans of this?

#10 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That could change my vote in this battle, do you have the scan of when he senses him?

#11 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara said:

@ChaosBlazer: If the gang up on one person, they are left vulnerable to attack from others. So i am assuming that they are going to try and take each other straight up, in 2, 1v1 fights.

Daredevil cant see Nightcrawler coming. He doesn't have a Spider sense the same way that Peter does. He has a sense that is similar to echolocation, he can see everything that he hears around himself. All he will hear is a distant "BAMF" from Nightcrawler teleporting, and next thing he knows, its lights out.

Morals off Iron Fist can take peter because he is equally as fast, has a greater martial ability, and his striking power with morals off he makes Peter's striking power seem light... really light. Iron fist has shown the ability to stop and destroy bullet trains with punches, he even one-shotted the heli-carrier out of the sky. He has nearly equal speed, and greater martial ability, and that means that he will get his hits in. Even someone with Peter's durability can't take morals off punches from the IMMORTAL IRON FIST lol

I think this would be an amazing fight, but I'm sticking with my team 2 for the majority.

I have to disagree on one vital fact about this fight: Spiderman is faster than Iron Fist. Iron Fist said that Spiderman was difficult to fight because he was 'too fast', which I think is him admitting Spiderman is faster than him, and prob more agile too. IF has good speed feats, but I think Spiderman has better ones- he dodged a rifle shot (from pretty near, almost point blank) from one of the Kravens (expert hunters = perfect aim) and the Kraven (i think vladimir) said 'i aimed. he dodged the bullet.' also Spidey dodged this bullet while in the middle of a fight with something else, so its not like you can catch him off guard or anything.

Therefore, Spiderman is the fastest, most agile person in this fight. Nightcrawler, Fist and DD are all extremely agile and fast, so even small speed advantages are very important. My reasoning is that with the time to plan, Spidey and DD will decide to stick pretty close together. If Spidey's precog kicks in and he realizes Nightcrawler is gonna teleport out and try to grab DD or something he can get over there and either KO Kurt (or kill him) in one hit or he can grab DD and get him out of danger. And its not like DD is helpless against Kurt, he understands Kurts powers and he can sense Kurt coming in before he physically reaches his teleport spot- pretty sure he;s one of the few that can do that, b/c of his senses.

Therefore Nightcrawler shouldn't do much besides distract the team. And if he does take out DD, Spidey will give him swift punishment...

Anyways Fist and Spidey both can take each other out with only one punch. Peter's webbing is deemed null by IF's area-effect with his chi, and vice versa. IF is more skilled, but Peter is not a complete noob in terms of fighting skill, and his precognition means IF will find it extremely hard to tag him. As I stated above, I believe Peter is faster than IF, even if just a small amount, and this coupled with his precog means he will probably land a punch before Fist does, and with no morals he'll probably knock off Fist's head. Not to say it isn't close at all. IF vs Spiderman is one of my questions that I want answered in a comic book sometime soon, and with morals off its even trickier a question.

#12 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a comic sitting in front of me where NC and Spiderman basically stalemate and NC wasn't even teleporting

#13 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara said:

@jashro44: That could change my vote in this battle, do you have the scan of when he senses him?

He wasn't aware this was Nightcrawler at first but he will know now and be able to react (he is almost as agile/ fast as Kurt)

#14 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@CalebHara said:

@ChaosBlazer: If the gang up on one person, they are left vulnerable to attack from others. So i am assuming that they are going to try and take each other straight up, in 2, 1v1 fights.

Daredevil cant see Nightcrawler coming. He doesn't have a Spider sense the same way that Peter does. He has a sense that is similar to echolocation, he can see everything that he hears around himself. All he will hear is a distant "BAMF" from Nightcrawler teleporting, and next thing he knows, its lights out.

Morals off Iron Fist can take peter because he is equally as fast, has a greater martial ability, and his striking power with morals off he makes Peter's striking power seem light... really light. Iron fist has shown the ability to stop and destroy bullet trains with punches, he even one-shotted the heli-carrier out of the sky. He has nearly equal speed, and greater martial ability, and that means that he will get his hits in. Even someone with Peter's durability can't take morals off punches from the IMMORTAL IRON FIST lol

I think this would be an amazing fight, but I'm sticking with my team 2 for the majority.

I have to disagree on one vital fact about this fight: Spiderman is faster than Iron Fist. Iron Fist said that Spiderman was difficult to fight because he was 'too fast', which I think is him admitting Spiderman is faster than him, and prob more agile too. IF has good speed feats, but I think Spiderman has better ones- he dodged a rifle shot (from pretty near, almost point blank) from one of the Kravens (expert hunters = perfect aim) and the Kraven (i think vladimir) said 'i aimed. he dodged the bullet.' also Spidey dodged this bullet while in the middle of a fight with something else, so its not like you can catch him off guard or anything.

Therefore, Spiderman is the fastest, most agile person in this fight. Nightcrawler, Fist and DD are all extremely agile and fast, so even small speed advantages are very important. My reasoning is that with the time to plan, Spidey and DD will decide to stick pretty close together. If Spidey's precog kicks in and he realizes Nightcrawler is gonna teleport out and try to grab DD or something he can get over there and either KO Kurt (or kill him) in one hit or he can grab DD and get him out of danger. And its not like DD is helpless against Kurt, he understands Kurts powers and he can sense Kurt coming in before he physically reaches his teleport spot- pretty sure he;s one of the few that can do that, b/c of his senses.

Therefore Nightcrawler shouldn't do much besides distract the team. And if he does take out DD, Spidey will give him swift punishment...

Anyways Fist and Spidey both can take each other out with only one punch. Peter's webbing is deemed null by IF's area-effect with his chi, and vice versa. IF is more skilled, but Peter is not a complete noob in terms of fighting skill, and his precognition means IF will find it extremely hard to tag him. As I stated above, I believe Peter is faster than IF, even if just a small amount, and this coupled with his precog means he will probably land a punch before Fist does, and with no morals he'll probably knock off Fist's head. Not to say it isn't close at all. IF vs Spiderman is one of my questions that I want answered in a comic book sometime soon, and with morals off its even trickier a question.

I would have to disagree with your first point, about Spiderman being the fastest person here. If dodging close-ranged gun fire is one of his greatest feats feats, then Iron Fist has equal, if not greater speed. In this scan the gun man fires, and before the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun, he attacks and ko's the gun man. This means that he was able to close distance, and strike in the time it took for a bullet to travel a couple of inches.

Other feats include dodging machine gun fire, and fire from multiple gunmen. iron fist is rarely ever hit. Most impressive, however, is when he dodges fat Cobras Lighting attack. Thats right, a lightning attack. Cobra even comments about Danny's speed. I would say that IF's speed is on par with the speed of Spiderman.

So think that Spiderman is not the fastest, and is around equal to Iron Fist, and this, combined with the superior martial ability of Danny, means the he is going to get his hit in. Morals off, Spiderman will not be able to take hits from Iron Fist. He took the heli-carrier out of the air with one punch, stopped a bullet train, broke the scorpions tail, ko'ed hercules, and destroyed aircrafts.

This leads me to believe that iron fist would beat Spiderman.

As for Daredevil, that scan was impressive where it pointed out that he can tell when Kirk will teleport. However, it is easy to point out that he still doesn't know the direction he was coming from, or the location in which he was teleporting to. Kirk has been able to teleport so fast that he ko'ed 4 guards before the first one hit the floor. Although Matt might be able to tell when Nightcrawler is teleporting, i doubt that he will be able to keep up with Kirk.

I still see my team taking the majority, Iron Fist Being the MVP in this instance.

#15 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@CalebHara said:

@jashro44: That could change my vote in this battle, do you have the scan of when he senses him?

He wasn't aware this was Nightcrawler at first but he will know now and be able to react (he is almost as agile/ fast as Kurt)

Was NC fighting them?

And this doesn't necessarily mean DD knew exactly where NC was porting to. He just senses a change in the atmosphere is all.

#16 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara: my main point was that Spiderman dodged the bullet of an extremely skilled gunman (one of the Kravens) while he was fighting somebody else. In your scans IF had his full attention on the gunman, who was just some random henchman who is probably nowhere near as skilled as a Kraven with a gun.

DD may not have pointed out the exact location of Kurt, but the fact is he was able to say a full sentence after he sensed Kurt before Kurt actually got there, which is tons of time for a guy as fast, skilled and deadly as Daredevil. I envision Nightcrawler teleporting up to take out DD, DD senses him 1-2 seconds before he gets there, turns and kills Kurt with a pressure point. And if Kurt goes after Spiderman... well, you know how that'll go.

IF may have more powerful attacks than Spiderman, sure.... but as we disagree on their speed levels, we disagree on the outcome as a whole. I believe Spidey's precog and speed advantage (in my opinion) allows him to get the first punch in (most of the time) which, with morals off, is likely to knock IF's head off. only tihng IF has going for him are his skills, which I don't believe are enough to handle Spidey's precog, speed, and lack of morals.

#17 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

@ChaosBlazer said:

@CalebHara said:

@jashro44: That could change my vote in this battle, do you have the scan of when he senses him?

He wasn't aware this was Nightcrawler at first but he will know now and be able to react (he is almost as agile/ fast as Kurt)

Was NC fighting them? And this doesn't mean DD knew exactly where he was. He just senses a change in the atmosphere...

sure, but it was like 2-3 seconds before Kurt even got there, so he can move behind himself (nightcrawler would likely teleport behind him or something) and when Nightcrawler gets there kill him with a pressure point.

#18 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@ToO_RaW said:

@ChaosBlazer said:

@CalebHara said:

@jashro44: That could change my vote in this battle, do you have the scan of when he senses him?

He wasn't aware this was Nightcrawler at first but he will know now and be able to react (he is almost as agile/ fast as Kurt)

Was NC fighting them? And this doesn't mean DD knew exactly where he was. He just senses a change in the atmosphere...

sure, but it was like 2-3 seconds before Kurt even got there, so he can move behind himself (nightcrawler would likely teleport behind him or something) and when Nightcrawler gets there kill him with a pressure point.

I've seen NC teleport in front of a speeding bullet after it's already been shot and then teleport out of the way. If he starts teleporting all over the place at those speeds he's going to confuse DD and then teleport his head off.

#19 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer: Well you just said it yourself, spiderman's pre cog gives him an advantage in the situation you are referring to. It is not nearly as impressive once you take his spider sense into consideration. It may have not been a bullet dodge at all. the scan i referred to clearly showed Iron Fist moving and striking before a bullet could travel a few inches.

Even seeing Kirk teleport a couple of seconds before it happens wont allow Matt to tell where Kirk is coming from. he wont be able to tell which direction he is in until he is there, And Nightcrawler has already shown the ability to throw strikes, teleport, and throw other strikes before his opponents can react to the first ones.

and yes, i agree with you that since we cant agree on speed, we wont agree.

im off for the night, ill respond tomorrow if you have anything else to say.

#20 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW: could i see a scan of that? Also I don't think canon Nightcrawler can teleport objects off of each other, like heads off bodies....

#21 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara: we'll just have to disagree, its a good fight and a close one too.

#22 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer: yup, good debate sir, and goodnight.

#23 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@ToO_RaW: could i see a scan of that? Also I don't think canon Nightcrawler can teleport objects off of each other, like heads off bodies....

In the first panel the bullets have already left the gun. He was fast enough to TP in grab the guy and TP out after they were shot

#24 Posted by New_World_Order (13071 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist & Nightcrawler.

#25 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6268 posts) - - Show Bio

No morals. Interesting.

No morals Kurt is deadly. We all tout how he is predictable, how his ports can be timed ... and it all sounds very convenient and pretty ... but I'm not sure a NC without morals is as 'predictable' as Mr. "Priest" Wagner is 'assumed' to be.

Both Iron Fist and Spider-Man are beasts morals off. Agreed. Their fight will be epic.

Oddly, I see DD as the 'weak' link here as Nightcrawler can do all sorts of nasty without morals ... he might not port a shark into Matt's stomach, but all he needs to do is lay one little finger on Murdock and it's game over. Wolverine's timed Kurt because he knows him, he knows how he moves. Daredevil does not. And a morals off Kurt is far more unpredictable and unknown, even to his teammates, let alone this lot.

Team 2 take it for me.

#26 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

No morals. Interesting.

No morals Kurt is deadly. We all tout how he is predictable, how his ports can be timed ... and it all sounds very convenient and pretty ... but I'm not sure a NC without morals is as 'predictable' as Mr. "Priest" Wagner is 'assumed' to be.

Both Iron Fist and Spider-Man are beasts morals off. Agreed. Their fight will be epic.

Oddly, I see DD as the 'weak' link here as Nightcrawler can do all sorts of nasty without morals ... he might not port a shark into Matt's stomach, but all he needs to do is lay one little finger on Murdock and it's game over. Wolverine's timed Kurt because he knows him, he knows how he moves. Daredevil does not. And a morals off Kurt is far more unpredictable and unknown, even to his teammates, let alone this lot.

Team 2 take it for me.

That's what I was thinking about NC. But a no morals DD could be pretty nasty too...

#27 Posted by Juiceboks (8612 posts) - - Show Bio

A no morals Kurt is pretty deadly. Granted if he could do it without getting KO'ed he would teleport DD's head off as he's the less likely of the two to see it coming(he did it to Deadpool). Spiderman and Danny could go either way as both have pretty good speed feats but I think Team 2 will come out on top with this one.

#28 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juiceboks said:

A no morals Kurt is pretty deadly. Granted if he could do it without getting KO'ed he would teleport DD's head off as he's the less likely of the two to see it coming(he did it to Deadpool). Spiderman and Danny could go either way as both have pretty good speed feats but I think Team 2 will come out on top with this one.

Less likely to see it coming? In the scan posted previously, Spiderman and DD were talking and DD sensed NC coming while Spiderman did not

#29 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6268 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

No morals. Interesting.

No morals Kurt is deadly. We all tout how he is predictable, how his ports can be timed ... and it all sounds very convenient and pretty ... but I'm not sure a NC without morals is as 'predictable' as Mr. "Priest" Wagner is 'assumed' to be.

Both Iron Fist and Spider-Man are beasts morals off. Agreed. Their fight will be epic.

Oddly, I see DD as the 'weak' link here as Nightcrawler can do all sorts of nasty without morals ... he might not port a shark into Matt's stomach, but all he needs to do is lay one little finger on Murdock and it's game over. Wolverine's timed Kurt because he knows him, he knows how he moves. Daredevil does not. And a morals off Kurt is far more unpredictable and unknown, even to his teammates, let alone this lot.

Team 2 take it for me.

That's what I was thinking about NC. But a no morals DD could be pretty nasty too...

He can indeed. I guess it could be 'written' either way. Meaning Matt can time Kurt and take him out via pressure point, or Kurt becomes a real devil and ports away with body parts.

As DD is the real icon of the pair, were this fight to see ink, he'd probably win. But based off power sets ... morals off, I'm not so sure it should be so.

#30 Posted by Juiceboks (8612 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry I shouldve said react to it, they both would probably sense it before he ports to them but as far as reaction speeds go I'll put Spidey just a notch above DD. If Kurt becomes too predictable and DD preemptively moves in a stance ready to deliver a killing pressure point strike even before he ports hes done. It really could go either way.

#31 Posted by ComicKID777 (287 posts) - - Show Bio

nightcrawler is a weaklink hes gonna be sensed by dd an spidey an get took out accordingly by either. iron fist dd or spidey could just use there agility to beat him in a close battle but together they beat him down.

#32 Posted by CrazyBuffalo (147 posts) - - Show Bio

Spidey and Iron Fist are the strong links here, and I think either of them with no morals is a scary thought. I give the edge to Iron Fist. I say Daredevil goes down first, followed by Nightcrawler, then Iron Fist puts Spidey away. Iron Fist is by far the best fighter here, and even Spidey's can assault him with aerial attacks and webs, I still say Danny takes it.

#33 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juiceboks said:

Sorry I shouldve said react to it, they both would probably sense it before he ports to them but as far as reaction speeds go I'll put Spidey just a notch above DD. If Kurt becomes too predictable and DD preemptively moves in a stance ready to deliver a killing pressure point strike even before he ports hes done. It really could go either way.

I dunno. I showed a scan of NC on page 1 and DD would have to be faster than a speeding bullet to tag a serious Kurt.

#34 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

I dunno. I showed a scan of NC on page 1 and DD would have to be faster than a speeding bullet to tag a serious Kurt.

Iron Fist has a confirmed Microseocnd reaction time, dodging bullet is something he has done regularly.

Here is a scan from Iron Fist vol 3, 01

#35 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

Either one on team 1 would stomp NC and than its Danny vs. SM & DD which I don't see ending well for him. NC is incredibly predictable and DD has senses so powerful NC isn't getting close and even if he does he's no match for Matt ,,,and DD could hang in with IF long e ought for Spider-Man to back him up and take him down as a team. Team 1 FTW

#36 Posted by CaptainDoeo (789 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil could take Nightcrawler, IMO. Then Iron Fist gets overwhelmed.

#37 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ToO_RaW said:

I dunno. I showed a scan of NC on page 1 and DD would have to be faster than a speeding bullet to tag a serious Kurt.

Iron Fist has a confirmed Microseocnd reaction time, dodging bullet is something he has done regularly.

Here is a scan from Iron Fist vol 3, 01

???

NC and IF are on same team...

#38 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

???

NC and IF are on same team...

Reading comprehension fail from my part, :p , nevermind :)

Note to self: go to bed :(

#39 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ToO_RaW said:

???

NC and IF are on same team...

Reading comprehension fail from my part, :p , nevermind :)

Note to self: go to bed :(

No worries. It's early...lol

#40 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4250 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 ftw

#41 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

I have a comic sitting in front of me where NC and Spiderman basically stalemate and NC wasn't even teleporting

That was teenage spider-man. IIRC in the same story punisher pinned spider-man to the wall by throwing knives at him. Current spider-man would stomp teenage spider-man with such ridiculous ease, I am willing to say it would be one of the biggest curbstomp battles of all time.

@ToO_RaW: @CalebHara: The scan chaosblazer posted is the one I am referring to. Daredevil should be smart enough to stay away from the one specific area which is experiencing an atmospheric change. And concerning nightcrawlers ability to teleport away from bullets, daredevil has been able to swat bullets after they have been fired out of the air. In some cases he has been able to swat multiple bullets.

And concerning spider-man and iron fist, I believe spider-man has a speed advantage.

Here are some speed feats for spider-man:

I think Peter has a slight speed advantage on iron fist from what my limited knowledge of Danny tells me. Now thrown in with spider-man accuracy and the radius of his webbing? Danny is going to have a hard time dodging spider-mans webbing. Also worth pointing spider-man and iron fist have fought before:

All though this was before iron fist trained with the book of iron fist, this was also before spider-mans way of the spider as well. So both have improved since this encounter admittedly. All though I don't think this fight should be totally dismissed.

#42 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@CrazyBuffalo said:

Spidey and Iron Fist are the strong links here, and I think either of them with no morals is a scary thought. I give the edge to Iron Fist. I say Daredevil goes down first, followed by Nightcrawler, then Iron Fist puts Spidey away. Iron Fist is by far the best fighter here, and even Spidey's can assault him with aerial attacks and webs, I still say Danny takes it.

Why do you think Danny can take him if spider-man can assault him with webbing aerial? Why does daredevil go down first? A morals off nightcrawler is scary and it does help nightcrawler out but I don't see it as enough to beat a morals off daredevil. Nightcrawlers patterns have been stated to be predictable (I know cyclops has predicted his ports and I think iron fist has as well) and daredevil has the ability to keep track of nightcrawler. With morals off daredevil can also one shot nightcrawler with a pressure point meant to kill.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

No morals. Interesting.

No morals Kurt is deadly. We all tout how he is predictable, how his ports can be timed ... and it all sounds very convenient and pretty ... but I'm not sure a NC without morals is as 'predictable' as Mr. "Priest" Wagner is 'assumed' to be.

I don't think morals off makes him less predictable. Its still nightcrawler making thinking of where to port in and out. it does help him out as he only needs to touch daredevil and port his head off but as I said above daredevil does have the means of keeping track of him. He also has better reflex feats so I think he is fast enough to land a blow on nightcrawler before nightcrawler ports away.

Both Iron Fist and Spider-Man are beasts morals off. Agreed. Their fight will be epic.

Agreed. All though wouldn't iron fists area of effect be limited here due to him having a team mate? He can't really use hellicarrier level punches to destroy the surrounding area if he has to worry about his teammate right?

Oddly, I see DD as the 'weak' link here as Nightcrawler can do all sorts of nasty without morals ... he might not port a shark into Matt's stomach, but all he needs to do is lay one little finger on Murdock and it's game over. Wolverine's timed Kurt because he knows him, he knows how he moves. Daredevil does not. And a morals off Kurt is far more unpredictable and unknown, even to his teammates, let alone this lot.

Team 2 take it for me.

A morals off daredevil can be pretty nasty as well. He knows pressure points which can kill and I believe daredevil has the precision and reflexes to pull it off as well. Also daredevil and spider-man do have experience working together which could also factor in as well. If daredevil is the weak link I think there team work can compensate.

#43 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@ToO_RaW said:

I have a comic sitting in front of me where NC and Spiderman basically stalemate and NC wasn't even teleporting

That was teenage spider-man. IIRC in the same story punisher pinned spider-man to the wall by throwing knives at him. Current spider-man would stomp teenage spider-man with such ridiculous ease, I am willing to say it would be one of the biggest curbstomp battles of all time.

@ToO_RaW: @CalebHara: The scan chaosblazer posted is the one I am referring to. Daredevil should be smart enough to stay away from the one specific area which is experiencing an atmospheric change. And concerning nightcrawlers ability to teleport away from bullets, daredevil has been able to swat bullets after they have been fired out of the air. In some cases he has been able to swat multiple bullets.

And concerning spider-man and iron fist, I believe spider-man has a speed advantage.

Here are some speed feats for spider-man:

I think Peter has a slight speed advantage on iron fist from what my limited knowledge of Danny tells me. Now thrown in with spider-man accuracy and the radius of his webbing? Danny is going to have a hard time dodging spider-mans webbing. Also worth pointing spider-man and iron fist have fought before:

All though this was before iron fist trained with the book of iron fist, this was also before spider-mans way of the spider as well. So both have improved since this encounter admittedly. All though I don't think this fight should be totally dismissed.

How can Daredevil keep up with NC or stay away from him when NC is fast enough to pull the feat off I posted on page 1? NC has above peak human reflexes. He's a mutant.

#44 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

NC is a casual bullet dodger while DD is a bullet timer.

#45 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW:Are you talking about the feat you posted on page 2 where he ports out of the way of gunfire after its been fired? Daredevil has also dodged bullets...I don't see how that trumps any of the reflex feats I posted above where daredevil swats bullets out of the air after they have been fired. Daredevil is capable of reacting to the bullet itself and deflecting a bullet is a lot harder to do then dodging a bullet IMO.

@ToO_RaW said:

NC is a casual bullet dodger while DD is a bullet timer.

I don't mean to be rude but did you look at my scans? Daredevil was swatting gun fire out of the air like it was literally nothing. He can avoid the actual bullet.

#46 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@ToO_RaW:Are you talking about the feat you posted on page 2 where he ports out of the way of gunfire after its been fired? Daredevil has also dodged bullets...I don't see how that trumps any of the reflex feats I posted above where daredevil swats bullets out of the air after they have been fired. Daredevil is capable of reacting to the bullet itself and deflecting a bullet is a lot harder to do then dodging a bullet IMO.

NC doesn't just port out of the way int hat scan. He ports in front of the bullet, and then out of the way.

@jashro44 said:

@ToO_RaW said:

NC is a casual bullet dodger while DD is a bullet timer.

I don't mean to be rude but did you look at my scans? Daredevil was swatting gun fire out of the air like it was literally nothing. He can avoid the actual bullet.

It looks like bullet timing rather than dodging.

#47 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Even with a confirmed micro-second reaction show, would Spiderman still be faster than Iron Fist? (just asking, my knoweledge of street level is laughable :p )

#48 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW:

NC doesn't just port out of the way int hat scan. He ports in front of the bullet, and then out of the way.

Well how consistent is this showing? I don't know if it makes him faster then daredevil though. Murdock has casually deflected multiple bullets.

It looks like bullet timing rather than dodging.

When you hit the actual bullet itself your not timing your movements. Daredevil couldn't have started to move his arm before the bullet was fired otherwise he would have swung to early and would have missed the bullet. Think of it as base ball. You have to wait until the ball is thrown before you swing the bat. Besides he clearly doesn't react until after the bullet is fired here.

#49 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@jashro44: Even with a confirmed micro-second reaction show, would Spiderman still be faster than Iron Fist? (just asking, my knoweledge of street level is laughable :p )

I think so. My knowledge of iron fist isn't the best to be honest. All though spider-sense is suppose to tell him where to dodge before the attack is thrown so spider-man should have a reaction speed advantage due to spider-sense. Reflexes is debatable all though I do believe spider-man has the edge there to from what i have seen from iron fist.

#50 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@ToO_RaW:

NC doesn't just port out of the way int hat scan. He ports in front of the bullet, and then out of the way.

Well how consistent is this showing? I don't know if it makes him faster then daredevil though. Murdock has casually deflected multiple bullets.

It looks like bullet timing rather than dodging.

When you hit the actual bullet itself your not timing your movements. Daredevil couldn't have started to move his arm before the bullet was fired otherwise he would have swung to early and would have missed the bullet. Think of it as base ball. You have to wait until the ball is thrown before you swing the bat. Besides he clearly doesn't react until after the bullet is fired here.

He's timing the bullets dude. He was aware of the shot before it was fired and reacted accordingly. As you can see, he was focusing on the situation.

And NC's feats are consistent. I'm in class right now, but when I'm done I will post multiple scans to prove it.