#1 Posted by jashro44 (28618 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man & Wolverine

VS

Gorgon & Shang-Chi

Gear

  • Spider-man has web-shooters, standard web cartridges, and spider tracers
  • Wolverine has no adamantium
  • Gorgon is wielding grass-cutter
  • Shang-chi has those electric nunchucks and any other gear he has shown in Hickmans avengers run

Rules

  • Wolverine has his healing factor
  • Spider-man is Peter
  • Morals are on for everyone except Shang chi
  • Random encounter
  • WIn by KO/Death/Incapacitation

Location

  • Begin visible
  • Start 10 feet apart
  • Fight takes place here:

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

On a first glance, I am tempted to go with Gorgon and Shang Chi because Gorgon would drop both adamantium or bone claw Wolverine and Spider-Man in a one on one fight, but on a second glance Shang Chi still hasn't done anything to suggest that he wouldn't be manhandled by bone claw Wolverine again, and even a morals on Spider-Man could dispatch him quite easily. Leaning towards Spider-Man and Wolverine for now.

#3 Edited by dondave (39680 posts) - - Show Bio

Shang Chi gets one shotted. Gorgon could possibly take on Peter and Logan but I see them managing to get a tight victory.

Online
#4 Posted by Geno (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: May I ask for proof? There is empirical evidence suggesting Shang can, at the very least, hold his own against either Spider-Man or Wolverine. The only thing that would suggest otherwise was his first fight against Wolverine when his skills were very inconsistently portrayed, but he's subsequently beaten Logan as well. I say inconsistently portrayed because Shang's stalemated Spide-Man, Iron Fist, and the Thing prior to that fight, and nothing suggested Logan was superior to any of them at the time (certainly not at as great of a margin as depicted). See scans below. But that's just my opinion, I'm willing to hear out a logical rebuttal.

Pertaining the battle itself, I think it really just comes down to Gorgon vs. Spider-Man, of which the outcome is unclear to me.

Wolverine First Class 9
Giant Size Spider-Man 2
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu 29
Marvel Two-in-One 29

#5 Posted by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno:

The only thing that would suggest otherwise was his first fight against Wolverine when his skills were very inconsistently portrayed,

You mean when Wolverine wasn't as experienced or as completely trained as today.

#7 Edited by Geno (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Yes, but like I said it was inconsistently portrayed only because Shang has shown to be more skilled both prior and after his initial fight with Wolverine. You're quite welcome to prove otherwise. If nothing else though, I think that first fight was meant to show how good Wolverine is, rather than how bad Shang-Chi is, and the fight in First Class was intended to even things out. Perhaps you're right that Wolverine has furthered his training since then, but Shang is also constantly improving (even if it isn't usually a centerpiece to a story). We've seen him spar with Captain America and Spider-Man, holding his own in both cases and undoubtedly learning something new. Relatively speaking, a couple of years of experience and training should not have a very big impact on the skills of someone who has been around as long as Wolverine has.

We also know that Shang does face off against the Gorgon in the coming months, and while it's premature to say they're in the same league, I'm sure it's not just 20 pages of Shang getting one-shotted either.

Anyway, I'm just giving you my opinion and my interpretation of what we've seen in the comics. I'll respectfully hear out yours if you choose to share it.

Edit: For some reason, my posts keep being submitted incompletely. Quite annoying...

#8 Posted by laflux (19857 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno:

The only thing that would suggest otherwise was his first fight against Wolverine when his skills were very inconsistently portrayed,

You mean when Wolverine wasn't as experienced or as completely trained as today.

Bone Claw Wolverine Beat Shang-Chi when he was being written as a martial artist. The fight @geno is showing was when Wolverine was conflicted about fighting his son Daken, and Shang-Chi even stated that it was affecting his ability to fight. So Wolverine went for some "refresher" courses, and then went and handily beat Daken, cut out his M-Blades attached to his claws and buried them.

The problem I find with Shang-Chi is that alot of his martial art peers has moved forward, when he has remained more consistent. Wolverine has become a better martial artist by and large (sans Cornell :P), Iron Fist has become more impressive in his chi abilities. Even Peter (who is not a martial artist character) has received extensive training (ironically by Shang-Chi) and even taking out that, his feats are much better now than in the classic days.

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

#9 Edited by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: The Wolverine Shang Chi managed to beat was running around conflicted about fighting his son Daken which was severely affecting his ability to fight. After Wolverine did go get some refresher courses with Silver Samurai, he went on to to rip the M blades out of Daken's hands and beat him silly while Daken just stood there looking clueless. We all saw what happened when a Wolverine who was mentally right walked in on Shang Chi.

The fight isn't all that impressive in the context of it.

#10 Edited by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: Oh yeah, I do agree that Shang Chi's upcoming fight with Gorgon should be very interesting.

#11 Posted by Geno (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Hickman didn't really use Shang that much. He had a prominent role in two issues, one where he was counseling Captain Universe and another were he solo's a bunch of assassins, but nothing noteworthy. He did slice through the original Aleph's leg with one hit after it was zapped by Thor, and the said Aleph was able to tank shots from and put down Captain America easily, and (if I recall correctly) managed to stand against heavy hitters like Thor and Hulk previously. It was also shown that Shang put up a good fight against Thanos' general, the Black Dwarf and his guards, although the fight itself was off-panel.

@wolverine08:

Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain how easily Wolverine defeated him, despite never (as far as I know) having been able to put down any of the other heroes Shang has faced off against with such ease.

#12 Posted by laflux (19857 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: Oh yeah, I do agree that Shang Chi's upcoming fight with Gorgon should be very interesting.

Honestly if Gorgon gets buried like he did against Iron Fist and DD, I'm gonna rage :(

#13 Edited by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: It does explain how easily Shang Chi beat him so easily. When Wolverine has been mentally conflicted, he has often performed much worse than he usually does. Just look at his fights with Daken for reference. In his first fight with Daken, Logan was completely flabbergasted by meeting his son and knowing that he failed and got completely destroyed by Daken. In his next two fights with Daken, Wolverine was completely in the zone and went on to utterly destroy and even kill Daken in his next two encounters with him. There is a pretty big difference between a Logan who is completely in the game and the one that can't think straight.

#14 Edited by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@wolverine08 said:

@geno: Oh yeah, I do agree that Shang Chi's upcoming fight with Gorgon should be very interesting.

Honestly if Gorgon gets buried like he did against Iron Fist and DD, I'm gonna rage :(

If Shang Chi is going to be getting a pretty good skill feat, someone has to be on the short end of the stick :)

#15 Posted by Geno (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Now that fight was a very inconsistent portrayal of the Gorgon.The writers seemed to have conveniently forgotten about his telepathic powers to get blindsided by Daredevil, and as much as I like both IF and DD, there's no way they would so easily take out someone who stood against the combined efforts of Wolverine and Elektra. It seems any villain that isn't Dr. Doom or the Green Goblin gets turned into fodder after they get a few panels in the spotlight.

Still not as bad as seeing Hawkeye backhand Mr. Negative...

#16 Posted by Geno (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Oh, I won't deny Logan his skills, and I completely agree he's more skilled than Shang when he is focused. He's definitely earned his title as "the best there is" by taking down some very impressive fighters in the Marvel Universe. Nevertheless, if they were to fight again I expect Shang to believably hold his own if not win, and certainly not lose as easily as he did in X-Men. Part of the on-panel explanation for his loss was also because Shang underestimated Logan.

On topic, as I've said, I don't expect either of them to be the deciding factor here.

#17 Posted by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: He'll probably do better next time he trades shot with Wolverine. It does seem like Marvel is trying to establish harder to establish him as being extremely formidable. Hence his upcoming fight with someone as dangerous as Gorgon, so we will most likely be seeing more skill feats and solid fights out of Chi in the future.

#18 Edited by laflux (19857 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno said:

@laflux:

Still not as bad as seeing Hawkeye backhand Mr. Negative...

That was terrible........

#19 Posted by dondave (39680 posts) - - Show Bio

@geno: Isn't Wolverine First Class Non-Canon?

Online
#20 Edited by jashro44 (28618 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

He hasn't done much. My scanner isn't working but he has these nunchucks he got from Tony, and IIRC he was smacking the ground and causing a small degree of area of effect (I would have to re-read the issue to be certain though).

Sorry for the late response.

#21 Edited by dondave (39680 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@laflux said:

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

He hasn't done much. My scanner isn't working but he has these nunchucks he got from Tony, and IIRC he was smacking the ground and causing a small degree of area of effect (I would have to re-read the issue to be certain though).

Sorry for the late response.

That and breaking the Aleph's kneecap

Online
#22 Posted by jashro44 (28618 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jashro44 said:

@laflux said:

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

He hasn't done much. My scanner isn't working but he has these nunchucks he got from Tony, and IIRC he was smacking the ground and causing a small degree of area of effect (I would have to re-read the issue to be certain though).

Sorry for the late response.

That and breaking the Aleph's kneecap

True.

#23 Posted by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jashro44 said:

@laflux said:

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

He hasn't done much. My scanner isn't working but he has these nunchucks he got from Tony, and IIRC he was smacking the ground and causing a small degree of area of effect (I would have to re-read the issue to be certain though).

Sorry for the late response.

That and breaking the Aleph's kneecap

Which issue was that again?

#24 Edited by jashro44 (28618 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by dondave (39680 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jashro44 said:

@laflux said:

That being said, I'm relatively unaware of what Shang-Chi has done through Hickman's run, so any scans would be helpful from @jashro44 >:)

He hasn't done much. My scanner isn't working but he has these nunchucks he got from Tony, and IIRC he was smacking the ground and causing a small degree of area of effect (I would have to re-read the issue to be certain though).

Sorry for the late response.

That and breaking the Aleph's kneecap

Which issue was that again?

Avengers #3 - The Garden

Online
#26 Posted by Wolverine08 (47644 posts) - - Show Bio