@Super_SoldierXII: See thats the problem with the whole scenario. Both of them are smart fighters and both are going to try and get into a position that lets them win. So it's really a toss up as to who makes the first mistake. I'm leaning towards Spider-man simply because the open area/city favors his abilities more than Logan's.
@Super_SoldierXII: See thats the problem with the whole scenario. Both of them are smart fighters and both are going to try and get into a position that lets them win. So it's really a toss up as to who makes the first mistake. I'm leaning towards Spider-man simply because the open area/city favors his abilities more than Logan's.
That's just the thing. As far as I'm concerned, and the only reason I got into this debate, is that this was supposed to be a brawl between a no claws Logan and a no webbing Petey. If we have an environment that avoids an all out brawl (Spider-Man avoids and Wolverine goes stealth), then I fail to see the point of the thread and, ultimately, how it differs from many others.
I'm going to have a go at this despite my previous unwillingness to get involved. I'm a sucka for these types of debates T.T
From what I can make out Wolverine's two advantages over Spider-man is durability and fighting skills. Spider-mans advantage's is basically physical superiority (Strength, speed, agility etc...). The thing here is Spider-man is NOT KOing Wolverine. its just not happening. People with better strength have tried and failed. Here's proof if you want it:
Wolverine is NOT 1-shotting Spider-man even if Spider-man took a direct punch to the face from Logan it is not 1-shotting him. Her's an example of Spidey's durability:
Rhino literally pushes his head through concrete and smashes his head into the floor before hitting him with a concrete column into a building and Spider-man is still conscious. Logan is NOT 1-shotting Spider-man.
Ok Wolverines advantage is the fact he can take whatever Spider-man can dish out in close combat and he has better fighting ability. So If Spider-man goes H2H with Logan he is screwed. Argue it anyway you want no matter how long it takes in pure H2H wolverine will win eventually.
Spider-man IS faster than Wolverine (kinda surprised this part is being debated really) this does not mean Wolverine cannot hit him (of course Wolverine can hit him he's tagged faster than Spider-man) but this still puts Spider-man at an advantage. Spider-man's speed and agility is going to make it very hard for Logan to land a blow.
IF the fight was in an open environment the fight would end with Logan KOing Spider-man. There is no doubt about it. Although Spider-man would stay up a while eventually Wolverine wins.
This fight however takes place in New York where there are quite a few things Spider-man could do to incapacitate him. I've seen a few posts saying its out of character for Spider-man to use his environment to win. This is completely untrue. He was unfazed about dropping a building to defeat the Sand-man, Shocker and the Enforcers:
Gallery
He was also not opposed to using Cars to smash up this guy:
Gallery
So no it ISN'T out of character for Spider-man to use his environment to win.
Wolverine is going to want to engage Spider-man in H2H because that is his best chance at wining. At the same time Spider-man is going to know (having fought Wolverine before) that letting Wolverine do that is the worst possible thing he could do.
So yes I do agree when people say that Wolverine is going to KO him in H2H because he will! What i'm saying is that Spider-man knowing that he CANNOT KO Logan in H2H is not going to give him the chance to engage him in it.
Ok while some people may argue Wolverine is as fast as Spider-man (Untrue imo. Just because he's slower doesn't mean Logan can't keep up with him but I don't see Logan being as fast as Spider-man) I don't think anyone will argue that Spider-man is more agile and probably has better reflexes (due to spider-sense). Spider-man's best bet is to put distance between him and Logan but for arguments sake lets say Logan closes in on him.
Yes Spider-man isn't hurting him but people are acting like Parker can't put distance between them. Which he can. Here's some examples using Venom:
Gallery
Anyone of those blows is going to send Wolverine flying back. Yes it won't faze him much but it will still send him flying and put distance between him and Spider-man. Here's an example with Wolverine himself. Spider-man kicked him and he went flying back:
As soon as Spider-man has this distance advantage he can pile Cars or simply drop something heavy on him for an incapacitation. He is easily strong enough to do so:
Gallery
Now I know Wolverine isn't going to stand there and let him simply pile cars on him but he also has no way of keeping up with Spider-man. Spider-man is still exceedingly fast without webbing and has quite a few showings of agility without using it:
Gallery
So my question is here: After Spider-man has put distance between himself and Wolverine how is Wolverine going to catch him? Spider-man isn't going to try and engage him in H2H because he knows he'll lose.
So can Logan catch a Spider-man who does NOT want to be caught and is not going to try to even get near him? The answer to me seems quite an easy no. The fight takes place in New York where there are tons of buildings for Spider-man to do exactly what he did in the scans I just posted above. After he's separated Logan won't be able to lay a finger on him.
My conclusion is that:
If this battle was in a grassy field for example where there is nothing Spider-man can use to pin Wolverine then Spider-man loses. The simple fact is Logan can KO Spider-man but Pete can't KO Wolverine.
This battle however takes place in New York (Spider-man home field advantage) where the is everything from cars to lumps of concrete Spider-man can use to incapacitate Wolverine. The simple matter is here that Spider-man will NOT try to beat Wolverine H2H because he knows he can't win that way. He ISN'T going to try and grapple Logan or get anywhere near him. So Logan is at a disadvantage because Pete can literally run in circles round him (on buildings etc..) and there is nothing Logan can do to stop him. So eventually Wolverine will get pinned by something Spider-man hits him with that is to heavy for him to lift.
first off great post and nice scans to back up everything being stated, but the question "can Logan catch a Spiderman who does not want to be caught?" is not an easy no in my opinion, because Wolvie can go stealth mode and find other means of making it more of a fight. The guy is a trained ninja. Will it be easy? no, but can he close in on spiderman while spidey is trying to keep his distance? yes.
I'm going to have a go at this despite my previous unwillingness to get involved. I'm a sucka for these types of debates T.T
From what I can make out Wolverine's two advantages over Spider-man is durability and fighting skills. Spider-mans advantage's is basically physical superiority (Strength, speed, agility etc...). The thing here is Spider-man is NOT KOing Wolverine. its just not happening. People with better strength have tried and failed. Here's proof if you want it:
Wolverine is NOT 1-shotting Spider-man even if Spider-man took a direct punch to the face from Logan it is not 1-shotting him. Her's an example of Spidey's durability:
Rhino literally pushes his head through concrete and smashes his head into the floor before hitting him with a concrete column into a building and Spider-man is still conscious. Logan is NOT 1-shotting Spider-man.
Ok Wolverines advantage is the fact he can take whatever Spider-man can dish out in close combat and he has better fighting ability. So If Spider-man goes H2H with Logan he is screwed. Argue it anyway you want no matter how long it takes in pure H2H wolverine will win eventually.
Spider-man IS faster than Wolverine (kinda surprised this part is being debated really) this does not mean Wolverine cannot hit him (of course Wolverine can hit him he's tagged faster than Spider-man) but this still puts Spider-man at an advantage. Spider-man's speed and agility is going to make it very hard for Logan to land a blow.
IF the fight was in an open environment the fight would end with Logan KOing Spider-man. There is no doubt about it. Although Spider-man would stay up a while eventually Wolverine wins.
This fight however takes place in New York where there are quite a few things Spider-man could do to incapacitate him. I've seen a few posts saying its out of character for Spider-man to use his environment to win. This is completely untrue. He was unfazed about dropping a building to defeat the Sand-man, Shocker and the Enforcers:
Gallery
He was also not opposed to using Cars to smash up this guy:
Gallery
So no it ISN'T out of character for Spider-man to use his environment to win.
Wolverine is going to want to engage Spider-man in H2H because that is his best chance at wining. At the same time Spider-man is going to know (having fought Wolverine before) that letting Wolverine do that is the worst possible thing he could do.
So yes I do agree when people say that Wolverine is going to KO him in H2H because he will! What i'm saying is that Spider-man knowing that he CANNOT KO Logan in H2H is not going to give him the chance to engage him in it.
Ok while some people may argue Wolverine is as fast as Spider-man (Untrue imo. Just because he's slower doesn't mean Logan can't keep up with him but I don't see Logan being as fast as Spider-man) I don't think anyone will argue that Spider-man is more agile and probably has better reflexes (due to spider-sense). Spider-man's best bet is to put distance between him and Logan but for arguments sake lets say Logan closes in on him.
Yes Spider-man isn't hurting him but people are acting like Parker can't put distance between them. Which he can. Here's some examples using Venom:
Gallery
Anyone of those blows is going to send Wolverine flying back. Yes it won't faze him much but it will still send him flying and put distance between him and Spider-man. Here's an example with Wolverine himself. Spider-man kicked him and he went flying back:
As soon as Spider-man has this distance advantage he can pile Cars or simply drop something heavy on him for an incapacitation. He is easily strong enough to do so:
Gallery
Now I know Wolverine isn't going to stand there and let him simply pile cars on him but he also has no way of keeping up with Spider-man. Spider-man is still exceedingly fast without webbing and has quite a few showings of agility without using it:
Gallery
So my question is here: After Spider-man has put distance between himself and Wolverine how is Wolverine going to catch him? Spider-man isn't going to try and engage him in H2H because he knows he'll lose.
So can Logan catch a Spider-man who does NOT want to be caught and is not going to try to even get near him? The answer to me seems quite an easy no. The fight takes place in New York where there are tons of buildings for Spider-man to do exactly what he did in the scans I just posted above. After he's separated Logan won't be able to lay a finger on him.
My conclusion is that:
If this battle was in a grassy field for example where there is nothing Spider-man can use to pin Wolverine then Spider-man loses. The simple fact is Logan can KO Spider-man but Pete can't KO Wolverine.
This battle however takes place in New York (Spider-man home field advantage) where the is everything from cars to lumps of concrete Spider-man can use to incapacitate Wolverine. The simple matter is here that Spider-man will NOT try to beat Wolverine H2H because he knows he can't win that way. He ISN'T going to try and grapple Logan or get anywhere near him. So Logan is at a disadvantage because Pete can literally run in circles round him (on buildings etc..) and there is nothing Logan can do to stop him. So eventually Wolverine will get pinned by something Spider-man hits him with that is to heavy for him to lift.
first off great post and nice scans to back up everything being stated, but the question "can Logan catch a Spiderman who does not want to be caught?" is not an easy no in my opinion, because Wolvie can go stealth mode and find other means of making it more of a fight. The guy is a trained ninja. Will it be easy? no, but can he close in on spiderman while spidey is trying to keep his distance? yes.
first off great post and nice scans to back up everything being stated, but the question "can Logan catch a Spiderman who does not want to be caught?" is not an easy no in my opinion, because Wolvie can go stealth mode and find other means of making it more of a fight. The guy is a trained ninja. Will it be easy? no, but can he close in on spiderman while spidey is trying to keep his distance? yes.
Thanks :)
While I agree Wolverine has the speed to keep up with Spider-man (i said that in my post). What he doesn't have is the means. For example if Spider-man is up leaping from building to building how does Logan get near him? He can't stick to walls and although he can climb he's not going to do that without Parker seeing him due to the fact Spider-man can move so much faster across this environment than Logan can.
For arguments sake lets say Logan does manage to close the gap without Spider-man noticing. How is he going to launch an attack without setting of Peter's spider-sense? It doesn't really matter how stealthy he is. He won't get a surprise hit in at all due to Pete's spider-sense and if he misses he's straight back to square one of trying to catch up to him again.
@Aphile: Hello. It would be dumb for Peter to try to fist fight Logan. Peter can beat him in many other ways. The only thing i disagree with is your definition of "owned Spidey in H2H". To me "owning" means you beat the other person down and there is a definite winner. A K.O, tap out, a bloody pulp etc. Everything else you said I completely agree with.
Ahoy you too Sir, I went over board when I said Logan owned Spidey in H2H. The fight ended there though where Logan smiles at Peter and pulls out his claws, I guess I should of said Logan was in control in that fight. But yes, Spidey can beat Logan by outsmarting him, that I have to give Spidey the benefit of a doubt
Did you say "Ahoy" and "over board" in the same sentence? Are you a pirate? lol just playing. This thread has been decided and i'm bored now. Time for you to make another good thread!
Yebo, guess you can I'm a pirate lol. Anyway, I'm make another one (just hope it's good though)
both are smart fighters ....it would be a good fight nonetheless
but
ill go with the guy that has trained and was made to hunt , stalk his opponents, and who is pretty much ruthless , and doesnt give a crap about his opponents , and has a huge advantage experience wise in battle.
100+ years of exp makes a great deal of a difference in battle.
Yay, let's ignore continuity about Wolverine's character development to make an argument for his victory. Logan isn't that ruthless usually, and he most certainly cares about a lot of people, including Parker.
@starscream1479 The morals are on, don't you think you should have been aware of that before making your comment? I am not going to address the age comment, since it has zero relevance to anything I said.
first off great post and nice scans to back up everything being stated, but the question "can Logan catch a Spiderman who does not want to be caught?" is not an easy no in my opinion, because Wolvie can go stealth mode and find other means of making it more of a fight. The guy is a trained ninja. Will it be easy? no, but can he close in on spiderman while spidey is trying to keep his distance? yes.
Thanks :)
While I agree Wolverine has the speed to keep up with Spider-man (i said that in my post). What he doesn't have is the means. For example if Spider-man is up leaping from building to building how does Logan get near him? He can't stick to walls and although he can climb he's not going to do that without Parker seeing him due to the fact Spider-man can move so much faster across this environment than Logan can.
For arguments sake lets say Logan does manage to close the gap without Spider-man noticing. How is he going to launch an attack without setting of Peter's spider-sense? It doesn't really matter how stealthy he is. He won't get a surprise hit in at all due to Pete's spider-sense and if he misses he's straight back to square one of trying to catch up to him again.
As per forum rules, Spider-Man effectively "running away" would constitute a win for Wolverine via BFR.
This is a battles forum. They are there to fight, not avoid. If Spider-Man forces Wolverine to 'give chase' just to engage, he effectively throws the fight. A few more points;
- If Spider-Man wants to content himself with running away by climbing on high and building hopping, he loses the fight.
- If Spider-Man wants to move from building to building tossing rubble/building parts down on Logan, Wolverine easily dodges/avoids and takes cover, then proceeds to stalk Parker.
- If Spider-Man moves to toss cars whilst playing the avoidance game, Wolverine can likewise go all hunter stalker on Parker, use the cover of buildings and stealth to close the gap.
Really, both can use the environment to their advantage servicing their respective strengths. I really think we should just focus on what would happen in a fist fight, because that is what this would truly be.
Not meaning offense to anyone in particular, but it seems like all the Spider-Man fans gather round, racking their brains to find any feasible way Parker can win ... just as long as he wins. Yes, I like Wolverine (I like most top tier martial street levelers and tend to favor them when I can), but at least I have actual showings presenting how and why Wolverine wins in an actual fight. I don't have to rack my brain and develop a strategy as to how he wins.
Wolverine wins by punching Parker in the face. Multiple times if you will. That simple. The end.
Yay, let's ignore continuity about Wolverine's character development to make an argument for his victory. Logan isn't that ruthless usually, and he most certainly cares about a lot of people, including Parker.
Agreed. Morals on, Wolverine is not doing anything lethal to Parker. Logan's actually quite protective over Parker, has a grudging respect and even like Peter. Probably why he gives him such a hard time.
Look, Spider-Man isn't KOing Logan. Period. I don't love it, but that's just he way it is based on consistent showings. Since Logan can't pop his claws, I think the best chance Parker has to win is actually to choke Logan out. If you've ever grappled with anyone, technique and leverage are important, but being ten times stronger than someone is a huge factor, too. I think it's more viable than Peter tossing cars at Logan. That said, he's unlikely to win a majority here. Not that many streets could beat Logan in pure H2H.
I've never seen those scans of Spidey unloading a punch on Logan to no effect that get mentioned around here a lot, does anyone have them?
Edit: Never mind, saw them on the previous page.
There are three separate instances where Parker's unloaded on Logan. Once out of desperation (the one you've already seen on the previous page), and twice out of anger (in New Avengers). All three can be found herein.
People are taking spidey using the environment thing to far. Peter doesn't have to run around hiding and taking cover. he doesn't have to throw cars at Logan etc. Spidey will throw Logan into those things to KO or incapacitate him. Like this:
This is peter beating titania by using the environement. he is not throwing the environment on her. he is throwing her into the environment. Peter throws logan into one building and Logan is down. If pics are to small here is the link:
People are taking spidey using the environment thing to far. Peter doesn't have to run around hiding and taking cover. he doesn't have to throw cars at Logan etc. Spidey will throw Logan into those things to KO or incapacitate him. Like this:
This is peter beating titania by using the environement. he is not throwing the environment on her. he is throwing her into the environment. Peter throws logan into one building and Logan is down. If pics are to small here is the link:
He isn't punching wolverine out for the simple reason he failed to do so. His only chance is to drop something heavy on him. If he doesn't do that spider-man is going to lose this fight.
Just read Wolverine and the X-Men #12. Click below for spoilers to see what happens with Wolverine and why this goes a long ways to show how bad an idea a hand to hand fight is with him for Spider-Man.
Kid Gladiator is mowing through the Avengers (who are now being hunted by the Phoenix 5). Effortlessly takes out Giant Man, catches up to a speeding Quicksilver and drops him, then states "Aren't there any Avengers here actually worth my time?!"
He turns and sees Wolverine standing behind him. Arrogantly states "Ah well. I suppose you'll have to do." He proceeds to start pounding the living crap out of Logan (too fast, too strong, just like Spidey - only times 10). He taunts Logan, telling him to pop his claws "it's no fun if you won't pop your claws". Logan's response is classic;
"See, that's the thing kid ... It ain't supposed to be fun. Guess your daddy never taught you that. Me, I've studied how to kill pretty much everything that walks, flies or slithers in this big ole' universe. Including Strontians, like you. I know your strengths. And I know your pressure points. Like this one here. Guess what I'm trying to say is ... you shoulda stayed in school."
So ya, Wolverine soaks all of Kid Gladiator's blows, then beats him via pressure point.
Yeah, that was cool. Not definitive since Parker wouldn't evidence the same arrogance, but Logan has some really good showings lately. He ran through half his rogues gallery in Wolverine #304. Didn't Logan also have the upper hand on Rachel early in Wolvie and the X-Men? PIS, but whatever.
@BringnIt: I remember flipping through that book in the shop. Didn't he easily drop Daken, Sabretooth Sauron, Bloodscream and others in one short brawl? I remember laughing to myself then putting the issue back on the shelf.
Yeah, that was cool. Not definitive since Parker wouldn't evidence the same arrogance, but Logan has some really good showings lately. He ran through half his rogues gallery in Wolverine #304. Didn't Logan also have the upper hand on Rachel early in Wolvie and the X-Men? PIS, but whatever.
Yes. Some say it was PIS, and maybe to a degree it is, but it was a literal 'hit and run'. Wolverine prepped for it and used his element of surprise to blind Daken (arguably the more dangerous of the group) right off the get-go. The rest was a speed blitz barrage of claws and fury taking everyone off guard, drops Sabretooth, says "Happy Birthday" then gets the hell out of dodge.
As to Rachel, he didn't beat her necessarily. He got the first hit in while she was trying to talk to him. Which is very plausible considering he's far faster and has been trained, by Rachel herself, to resist TP. He didn't hit to kill, just knocked her out of the bar creating space for the "Avengers to Assemble" as it were.
Eh, she should beat him via TK easily and it just makes me sad to see in the same issue Wolverine having an edge on her and then poor Thor getting smacked around by everybody.
Eh, she should beat him via TK easily and it just makes me sad to see in the same issue Wolverine having an edge on her and then poor Thor getting smacked around by everybody.
Wolverine didn't have an edge aside from getting in the first hit. He kicks her away from him while she was only interested in talking. If she were to go on the attack against Logan, I doubt he would have done so well.
EDIT: And Thor actually contained a Phoenix force enhanced Namor ...I wouldn't feel so bad for him here. Without him there, the Avengers would have been collectively one shotted. Rachel only decked him with her TK. He was by no means 'out'. I did like how Thor warned her about messing around with his mind. That was badass.
People are taking spidey using the environment thing to far. Peter doesn't have to run around hiding and taking cover. he doesn't have to throw cars at Logan etc. Spidey will throw Logan into those things to KO or incapacitate him. Like this:
This is peter beating titania by using the environement. he is not throwing the environment on her. he is throwing her into the environment. Peter throws logan into one building and Logan is down. If pics are to small here is the link:
He isn't punching wolverine out for the simple reason he failed to do so. His only chance is to drop something heavy on him. If he doesn't do that spider-man is going to lose this fight.
Yes i agree. he should not try to stand toe to toe with Logan. But people saying peter should climb up buildings, hide out and throw cars at him is too much. Peter is strong enough and has tagged logan enough that he can throw him into a building and let the rubble bury him. Or simply pin logan down while holding his arms. With peters strength, agility and new fighting skills, i don't see any of these being difficult to pull off:
To dominate with the above positions takes more skill than strength. Parker does not have the skill to lock in a reverse choke hold on Logan without falling to strikes or submissions himself. Strength does not allow for one to assume such a superior position over a far more skilled opponent.
Wolverine could drop Parker with a pressure point or any number of nerve strikes and even apply his own superior submission game, if Parker is dumb enough to get in close and grapple with him. Submissions are about establishing your position and then monopolizing on your opponents exposed openings. In short, it's a skill game. Parker has the strength to impose a superior position, but not the skill to put Logan away before he gets put away.
@pooty: I don't think spider-man will need to climb building and throw cars at wolverine (nor do I think he would). He could wait until the rubble falls on wolverine or he could pick it up and drop it on wolverine (personally I think the latter is easier). As for a submission hold we don't know if spider-mans new training involved that.
@Super_SoldierXII: 0_o do you have scans? All though from what it sounds it seems like kid gladiator just underestimated wolverine but still that sounds pretty impressive.
Kid Gladiator definitely underestimated him. No denying that. @Super_SoldierXII I think Namor had the upperhand in both of their encounters in that issue, although Thor never got KOed as you mentioned.
@jashro44: As for a submission hold we don't know if spider-mans new training involved that.
Only a couple of those holds require that much skill. Most of those are leverage and strength. When you are 5x as strong as your opponent(i'm basing that off of logan 2 ton and spidey 10 ton) you can overpower that person. Think about it. If you can lift 400lbs and your opponent can lift 80lbs, and you are just as agile and quick as your opponent, is it going to be that hard to pin them down?
@jashro44: As for a submission hold we don't know if spider-mans new training involved that.
Only a couple of those holds require that much skill. Most of those are leverage and strength. When you are 5x as strong as your opponent(i'm basing that off of logan 2 ton and spidey 10 ton) you can overpower that person. Think about it. If you can lift 400lbs and your opponent can lift 80lbs, and you are just as agile and quick as your opponent, is it going to be that hard to pin them down?
Wolverine has escaped the hold from Sebastian Shaw who was claiming he was capable of bending adamantium before. This would not be a good method for spider-man.
@jashro44: We know SS is not strong enough to bend adamantium. But let's put him at 20ton level. That is still 10x stronger than logan. He has logan on his stomach where he can't use his arms or legs for leverage or strength. Logan is being bent into a C shape. In your opinion, is that a scan where the writers allowed logan to escape? Or is that a feat that can be accomplished outside of a comic book?
@jashro44: We know SS is not strong enough to bend adamantium. But let's put him at 20ton level. That is still 10x stronger than logan. He has logan on his stomach where he can't use his arms or legs for leverage or strength. Logan is being bent into a C shape. In your opinion, is that a scan where the writers allowed logan to escape? Or is that a feat that can be accomplished outside of a comic book?
Honestly I have no idea how fighting skills work so I don't really have an opinion on it at all other then it happened. Which really doesn't matter because sub mission holds aren't really something spider-man even does, so even if you do want to dismiss the scan (which I guess is understandable) then you would still have to show me spider-man in character using a sub mission hold on enemies enough times for it to be considered in character.
@jashro44: then you would still have to show me spider-man in character using a sub mission hold on enemies enough times for it to be considered in character.
Normally Spidey has no need of submission holds because he has webbing. If he has no webbing he will have to find other ways to subdue his opponents.
Kid Gladiator definitely underestimated him. No denying that. @Super_SoldierXII I think Namor had the upperhand in both of their encounters in that issue, although Thor never got KOed as you mentioned.
I don't think it matters whether he underestimated him or not. He was absolutely unloading on him all the same (with spiked gloves). To no avail. And Logan took him out with his index finger ... all the same. Kid Gladiator was there to kick Logan's arse, and any Avenger he could get his mitts on as a point of pride and to feed his arrogance (even tried lifting Thor's hammer). Logan beat him with a finger. Which is consistent with his showing against Rock of the Buddha. Ultra durable folks he can't beat with fists or claw, he seems to resort pressure points.
@jashro44:
You beat me to that scan. In short, in so far as grappling is concerned, Spider-Man is strong enough to initially take the dominant position, but not skilled enough to pull off a submission against Logan. And I kinda lol at SS being billed at 20 tons in that scan. He's closer to class 100 when adequately charged. A skilled opponent uses momentum and technique to throw off a far stronger opponent like that ... elements of Judo, BJJ, Aikido (especially Aikido) are not strength based but leverage and using the opponents momentum/strength against them.
@jashro44: then you would still have to show me spider-man in character using a sub mission hold on enemies enough times for it to be considered in character.
Normally Spidey has no need of submission holds because he has webbing. If he has no webbing he will have to find other ways to subdue his opponents.
He usually just uses the environment when his webbing isn't enough. We still need to know what spider-mans skill level is before this is a option.
@Super_SoldierXII: Wait...Did kid gladiator beat thor in the same issue 0_o
first off great post and nice scans to back up everything being stated, but the question "can Logan catch a Spiderman who does not want to be caught?" is not an easy no in my opinion, because Wolvie can go stealth mode and find other means of making it more of a fight. The guy is a trained ninja. Will it be easy? no, but can he close in on spiderman while spidey is trying to keep his distance? yes.
Thanks :)
While I agree Wolverine has the speed to keep up with Spider-man (i said that in my post). What he doesn't have is the means. For example if Spider-man is up leaping from building to building how does Logan get near him? He can't stick to walls and although he can climb he's not going to do that without Parker seeing him due to the fact Spider-man can move so much faster across this environment than Logan can.
For arguments sake lets say Logan does manage to close the gap without Spider-man noticing. How is he going to launch an attack without setting of Peter's spider-sense? It doesn't really matter how stealthy he is. He won't get a surprise hit in at all due to Pete's spider-sense and if he misses he's straight back to square one of trying to catch up to him again.
As per forum rules, Spider-Man effectively "running away" would constitute a win for Wolverine via BFR.
This is a battles forum. They are there to fight, not avoid. If Spider-Man forces Wolverine to 'give chase' just to engage, he effectively throws the fight. A few more points;
- If Spider-Man wants to content himself with running away by climbing on high and building hopping, he loses the fight.
- If Spider-Man wants to move from building to building tossing rubble/building parts down on Logan, Wolverine easily dodges/avoids and takes cover, then proceeds to stalk Parker.
- If Spider-Man moves to toss cars whilst playing the avoidance game, Wolverine can likewise go all hunter stalker on Parker, use the cover of buildings and stealth to close the gap.
Really, both can use the environment to their advantage servicing their respective strengths. I really think we should just focus on what would happen in a fist fight, because that is what this would truly be.
Not meaning offense to anyone in particular, but it seems like all the Spider-Man fans gather round, racking their brains to find any feasible way Parker can win ... just as long as he wins. Yes, I like Wolverine (I like most top tier martial street levelers and tend to favor them when I can), but at least I have actual showings presenting how and why Wolverine wins in an actual fight. I don't have to rack my brain and develop a strategy as to how he wins.
Wolverine wins by punching Parker in the face. Multiple times if you will. That simple. The end.
This................Strider that is a valid point, if wolvie misses (which if spidey is jumping from building to building he would) its back to square one, but if the cat and mouse game continues it wouldn't be a fight now would it.
@TheAmazingImmortalMan: it is a simple win for.............. Spidey. No need for running and climbing walls. Wolverine has never been shown to repeatedly tag Spidey to the point of KO. It's usually a back and forth. But spidey has been shown strong enough to throw him out of unbreakable windows, into buildings and he is strong enough to pin him down.
@pooty true Spidey is strong enough to all things you have listed, but Logan is durable enough and his healing factor is fast enough to recover from all that, and if Pete manages to pin him down (like the scan with Juggernaut) Logan is skilled enough to maneuver out of it. You have good reasons as to why Spidey will win this and it is possible he could, but I dont think he has what it takes to win this so my vote is still the man with the ridiculous healing factor. Wolverine! plus the longer the fight takes the more it favors Logan.
Log in to comment