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#51 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio
#52 Posted by dondave (38882 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@dondave said:

Kaine

@oceanmaster21 said:

kaine wins

Reasoning?

If Kaine access to his Other powers here his Superior Stats should win tallow him to beat Peter. i fhe doesn't the combination of his invisibility and Peter's Spider Sense not working against Kaine may allow him to get the drop on Pete

#53 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: When you say access his other powers are you talking about the spider transformation he fought the wolves in? Also I am not 100% sure if Peters spider-sense will not work. It worked on him in spider-island and Peter did state his spider-sense was better when it returned. So his spider-sense might work on current Kaine.

#54 Edited by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#55 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

@bringnit: Kaine is likely a 25 tonner compared to Peter's 10 ton, and morals won't help Kaine here. He is a tough customer, but much like Wolverine he does have morals, and he practically hero worships Peter.

Actually this is a misconception (a lot like when People thought the symbiote enhanced peter's strength). Peter's organic web-shooters were rectoned for the sake of bringing back his old problems with web-fluid. But there is no proof that Pete has gotten any weaker and has officially left the 20 ton range. Pete has most likely retained these traits at least of enhanced strength and speed (unless we get a new handbook for where Peter currently stands then I think he is still at 20 tons at least) BUT Kaine is probably still stronger because he still has 85 extra pounds of muscle than Peter does so his spider-strength is proportionately bigger than Spider-mans anyway. While Peter is still in the 20 ton range (until someone proves me wrong with REAL proof other than them just assumeing this after the events of one more day) while Kaine is around the 30 ton range logically.

Note please reply. This is a matter I would like to hear your opinion on and Every one else might need to know about my theory (im sick of watching everyone else go along with this Back to 10 tons BS without any proof or consideration as it might not be true) Besides just about every Marvel character has gotten a major power boost. It wouldn't make sense for the writers to take that development away from Peter when he should be keeping up with every one. Sorry if this is a little long. I just feel like this is one of those Misconceptions Strider has been talking about.

#56 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude. Check out what I said 20 minutes ago and tell me what you think?

#57 Posted by russellmania77 (15798 posts) - - Show Bio

kane with a choke slam

#58 Edited by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude. Check out what I said 20 minutes ago and tell me what you think?

The user you replied doesn't log in anymore....And some times you have to wait longer then 20 minutes for a reply, as people aren't on there computers 24/7.

#59 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7010 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#60 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Well could you still answer my question on this theory?

#61 Edited by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

Well could you still answer my question on this theory?

My opinion?

Kaine with other powers was recently stated to be stronger then spider-man so it doesn't seem likely. Seems like Peter lost all of the other powers based off Kaine and Ottos recent fight.

#62 Posted by Wolverine08 (45538 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#63 Edited by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I know he lost the fight but that doesn't mean he's stronger because of just the other. It could reasonably be because of Kaine being 250 lbs but Pete weighs between 160-165 lbs meaning his spiderstrength is proportionately bigger then Peter's. Kaines bigger, taller and just went through a second transformation with the Other that Peter never took as far. Its reasonable that Kaine is stronger but is it unreasonable for Pete to still be in the 20 ton or at least 15 ton range?

#64 Edited by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

I know he lost the fight but that doesn't mean he's stronger because of just the other. It could reasonably be because of Kaine being 250 lbs but Pete weighs between 160-165 lbs meaning his spiderstrength is proportionately bigger then Peter's. Kaines bigger, taller and just went through a second transformation with the Other that Peter never took as far. Its reasonable that Kaine is stronger but is it unreasonable for Pete to still be in the 20 ton or at least 15 ton range?

I think based on feats Peter would be in the 10-20 ton zone. However I do think it is a bit unreasonable to assume that because Kaine is slightly more muscular he can ragdoll Otto in the manner in which he did. The strength gap seemed to be pretty big to me.

#65 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

The same can be said about two boxers of similar weight categories as those characters were. Lightweight vs heavyweight. Plus why wouldn't Kaine be able to ragdoll Pete based on my Theory? Its not like both of their weights mean much them compared to their strength. For example They pretty much Don't trust eachother as far as they can throw eachother.

#66 Edited by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

The same can be said about two boxers of similar weight categories as those characters were. Lightweight vs heavyweight. Plus why wouldn't Kaine be able to ragdoll Pete based on my Theory? Its not like both of their weights mean much them compared to their strength. For example They pretty much Don't trust eachother as far as they can throw eachother.

Kaine was tossing Otto around like a soft ball and choking him out with not effort. Otto was totally outclassed against Kaine. As for what evidence is there that Peter didn't receive other powers in scarlet spider 14 the other states Peter rejected him.

#67 Edited by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't mean Pete rejected the strength he got from the queen.

#68 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't mean Pete rejected the strength he got from the queen.

Do you have any evidence he kept these upgrades?

#69 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Sadly no. But I feel it isn't right. But there's no proof that says he doesn't.

#70 Edited by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

Sadly no. But I feel it isn't right. But there's no proof that says he doesn't.

Thing is we can't say he has that upgraded level of strength without proof.

#71 Posted by Rexorr (144 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine

#72 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally I think spider-man can take a majority. Anyone feel like debating it rather then giving a one word answer let me know.

#73 Edited by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@segamarvel said:

@bringnit: Kaine is likely a 25 tonner compared to Peter's 10 ton, and morals won't help Kaine here. He is a tough customer, but much like Wolverine he does have morals, and he practically hero worships Peter.

Actually this is a misconception (a lot like when People thought the symbiote enhanced peter's strength). Peter's organic web-shooters were rectoned for the sake of bringing back his old problems with web-fluid. But there is no proof that Pete has gotten any weaker and has officially left the 20 ton range. Pete has most likely retained these traits at least of enhanced strength and speed (unless we get a new handbook for where Peter currently stands then I think he is still at 20 tons at least) BUT Kaine is probably still stronger because he still has 85 extra pounds of muscle than Peter does so his spider-strength is proportionately bigger than Spider-mans anyway. While Peter is still in the 20 ton range (until someone proves me wrong with REAL proof other than them just assumeing this after the events of one more day) while Kaine is around the 30 ton range logically.

Note please reply. This is a matter I would like to hear your opinion on and Every one else might need to know about my theory (im sick of watching everyone else go along with this Back to 10 tons BS without any proof or consideration as it might not be true) Besides just about every Marvel character has gotten a major power boost. It wouldn't make sense for the writers to take that development away from Peter when he should be keeping up with every one. Sorry if this is a little long. I just feel like this is one of those Misconceptions Strider has been talking about.

Peter lost more than the organic web shooters though...he also lost the Bone Talons and the Spider-telepathy.

To be fair though...Peter has had much better strength feats before and after the Queen and Other Upgrades than is reflected by his alleged 10 ton limit.

#74 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Peter lost more than the organic web shooters though...he also lost the Bone Talons and the Spider-telepathy.To be fair though...Peter has had much better strength feats before and after the Queen and Other Upgrades than is reflected by his alleged 10 ton limit.

To be fair Pete never used the spider-telepathy again after he got it from the issue with the queen. I agree that his feats say otherwise but why do those feats have to be thrown out the window when we debate? Otto took Scorpions friggin jaw off (and he's a 15 tonner). Otto should have at least been in the 20 ton range(or at least stronger then Scorpion) currently to do that to him. For the last time im not saying Pete is as strong as Kaine, im only saying he isn't officially degraded in the strength department. Otto is most likely 20 tons while Kaine is probably 30 tons. That seems to be a reasonable gap for the fight that occurred. Tell me if my earlier theory doesn't at least make a little sense.

#75 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

@segamarvel: it was stated that scorpions jaw was exposed and is a weak point.

#76 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: it was stated that scorpions jaw was exposed and is a weak point.

Doesn't change the fact that he still has superhuman durability without the armor.(why would he need the armor anyway?) He said it made him stronger than Spider-man (which draws the question that Pete's base strength is stronger than a non armored scorpion)

#77 Edited by GraniteSoldier (8827 posts) - - Show Bio

Stating Peter is 10 ton, then seeing him lift things like tanks, subway cars, train cars, all objects over 10 tons means he is over 10. Feats speak louder than what the "official records" say. Hell, he held up a damn building. Kaine holds back much, much less than Peter, so it's easy to see why Kaine would seem "vastly superior" in the strength department. While I'll admit Kaine is probably slightly stronger (about 5-10 tons or so) Peter is definitely faster. And if this is Peter we are talking about, his spider-sense coupled with his Way of the Spider (which takes his spider-sense to the limit in addition to Pete having great hand to hand now) I doubt Kaine would touch him much.

If this is SpOck, in a straight fight I feel his arrogance and disdain for Kaine as a clone would be his downfall. He'd probably get smacked a few times and claim Kaine is beneath him and leave. SpOck doesn't have the heart for a hard fight.

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#78 Posted by VeganDiet (1105 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@segamarvel: it was stated that scorpions jaw was exposed and is a weak point.

I'm not coming down on either side of this debate, but Spider-man was capable of tearing apart Scorpion's armor in that Heroes for Hire issue.

#79 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be easy math for you guys. They both have the ENHANCED proportional strength of a spider. Peter weighed 167 lbs when he could lift 20 tons Which was by my estimates about 240 times his body weight. Kaine has the same powerset so 240 times Kaine's body weight (250 lbs) equals about 30 tons. That is a reasonable gap to explain how that fight went the way it did. Kaine is stronger by a noticeable margin but Spock wasn't COMPLETELY helpless in that fight(note when I capitalize on completely). I'm not on Ocks side though. I'm on Peter's. They can both throw cars as easily as they can throw eachother. Plus Otto was still dazed by that kick to the face (I think we both know their leg muscles are considerably stronger) so I didn't see Otto gasping for breath when he was being "choked" by Kaine as you say. I honestly don't see why you don't think this theory works when the gap is actually no different then when Spider-man first fought Scorpion in the early 60's(a 10 tonner back then vs a 15 tonner). So I see no reason not to believe Peter to be a 20 tonner and Kaine a 30 tonner.

#80 Posted by jashro44 (25277 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@segamarvel: it was stated that scorpions jaw was exposed and is a weak point.

I'm not coming down on either side of this debate, but Spider-man was capable of tearing apart Scorpion's armor in that Heroes for Hire issue.

True.

This should be easy math for you guys. They both have the ENHANCED proportional strength of a spider. Peter weighed 167 lbs when he could lift 20 tons Which was by my estimates about 240 times his body weight. Kaine has the same powerset so 240 times Kaine's body weight (250 lbs) equals about 30 tons. That is a reasonable gap to explain how that fight went the way it did. Kaine is stronger by a noticeable margin but Spock wasn't COMPLETELY helpless in that fight(note when I capitalize on completely). I'm not on Ocks side though. I'm on Peter's. They can both throw cars as easily as they can throw eachother. Plus Otto was still dazed by that kick to the face (I think we both know their leg muscles are considerably stronger) so I didn't see Otto gasping for breath when he was being "choked" by Kaine as you say. I honestly don't see why you don't think this theory works when the gap is actually no different then when Spider-man first fought Scorpion in the early 60's(a 10 tonner back then vs a 15 tonner). So I see no reason not to believe Peter to be a 20 tonner and Kaine a 30 tonner.

I am not really objecting to Peter being a 20 tonner. I think its possible given Peters feats. But there isn't any evidence he has kept his upgrades is all I am saying.

#81 Edited by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I can understand Peter losing his organic webbing, stingers, even nightvision but I don't see why Peter should lose his strength and speed upgrades.

#82 Posted by july16th (77 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like peter's intelligence and ability to exploit weaknesses is key. Peter should take this at least 7/10 times. Don't get me wrong, I love kaine... I just think peter has a minor leg up.

#83 Posted by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

Providing Morals are On Peter wins due to WOS training and the fact Kaine idolizes Peter to a certain extent so will hold back a little. If Kaine shifts to the Other however then he wins.

#84 Edited by Deranged Midget (17961 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@segamarvel: it was stated that scorpions jaw was exposed and is a weak point.

The jaw is a weak point for anyone :P

No but seriously, Ock managed to pull that off on Gargan primarily because he wasn't holding back. The reaction from the crowd and Ock himself, who was beyond stunned, goes to show that no one ever realized how much Peter held back. Even Ock has the realization that Peter held back against him everytime they fought and never thought of how much power was in his body.

In regards to recent events with Ock and Kaine going at it, I think it's pretty clear that Kaine is far stronger than "Peter" is. He decked Ock in one hit, took everything that was thrown at him and even surprised Warren, who is basically the one person in the Marvel U who knows Peter's genetic code in and out, when he snapped out of the chains specifically designed to hold Peter and seemingly by extension, his clones.

Now, considering that Ock fights noticably and foolishly different in comparison to Peter, I don't think that brief scuffle between the two of them can transfer over to how Peter may have handled the fight. Ock has never demonstrated WOTS nor does he utilize webbing or his powers in any similar way to Peter. He's simply reckless and takes advantage of the power and primarily the spider-sense which Peter pushed past when he temporarily lost it, forcing him to utilize his powers and skills more precisely.

So really, lacking spider-sense against Kaine won't be too much of a troublesome unless the camouflage is taken into effect, to which Peter may be able to counter with upgraded lenses but he only demonstrated that when prepped IIRC. It was Ock who had the lenses upgraded permanently.

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#85 Posted by wanonalake (294 posts) - - Show Bio

the deciding factor here is that peet has spider sence and kaine doesn't

#86 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Really, my Master? (lol) You think Pete would take him in a -morals on- fight? The key factor is experience for you, cause we if weigh everything else (plus no spider sense for Pete against Kaine), how could Pete beat a stronger version of himself? Hmm, perhaps, you said Pete, cause he's smarter in a way.

#87 Posted by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@phaedrusgr: Nah mainly because Kaine would hold back. He practically worships Pete. We saw how he reacted to SpOck. He basically let him punch the crap out of him. Against the real Pete who jokes around he's less likely to cut loose and with Pete's WoS training a nerve strike could put Kaine out of commision. If both had morals off my money would be on Kaine but in character i'll go with Pete.

#88 Posted by TDK_1997 (15059 posts) - - Show Bio

If this fight was under morals off then Kaine would've won but with morals on I think he loses.

#89 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: sorry to bump, but morals off for both Kaine and Pete, and if Peter's spider-sense did work on Kaine + knowing his "way of the spider" training, wouldn't Peter win?

#90 Posted by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: If his morals were off and his Spider-sense did work on Kaine Peter would win. Spider-sense was described by Kaine himself as the ultimate edge in combat and with good reason.

#91 Posted by highaccuser (8422 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#92 Posted by comicace3 (6581 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine

#93 Posted by 106me (1743 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter by feats. Kaine by story.

#94 Posted by Aeon-Rising (458 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter wins with morals on.

#95 Posted by segamarvel (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not really impressed with Kaine's strength in relations to Peter's. Kaine having the other was not what made him stronger. He's ALWAYS been stronger then Spidey. Why should now be any different. Kaine already had "The other" like powers just from the Jackles mutation before he even met the other. My point is that I still believe that Peter posseses his speed/strength upgrades from the other.

Peter's always said he has the PROPORTIONAL strength of a spider. Meaning the strength of a spider, scaled UP to his size. This is why Venom's always been stronger than Peter: It duplicated his powers, but when it latched onto a host that was physically bigger and more muscular than Peter (Eddie), it scaled up that strength to make him much stronger. Peter only weighs about 160 lbs while Kaine is at least 250 lbs. This obviously puts him in a different weight class simply cause of this example. I think that if Peter were the kind of guy that works out like a jock he would be as strong as Kaine.

#96 Edited by BeaconofStrength (6682 posts) - - Show Bio

I still want to say Kaine takes this.

#97 Posted by Knightsofdarkness2 (4433 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way, but I'm going with Kaine.

#98 Posted by Noone301994 (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine.

#99 Posted by highaccuser (8422 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way. Mostly depends on weather or not Kaines willing to use his more offensive powers(mark of kaine and stingers).

#100 Posted by joshmeyers67 (8 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong I love Kaine, but I believe that in the End Peter would win, and the reason why is because of his superior fighting skill set (W.O.S.). Kaine maybe stronger than Pete, but strenght isn't always the answer to someone winning. Superior Spiderman lost the fight with Kaine because of his arrogance, and he isn't as skilled as Peter (don't get me wrong again I like SSM too) but even though he snatched Petes body, we're still dealing with Doc Ock on the inside. So if you have Pete in his own body against Kaine, Pete would win. It would be a challenge, but he would come out on top.