I'd go with the team on this. Cyclops will have issues tagging Pete but I think he can at this distance eventually under the circumstances. And Logan will definitely close the gap to engage Parker too. So Pete is gonna have 2 guys that have known each other and worked with each other for over a decade and have to worry about a very powerful, very accurate marksman, and Wolverine whom has given Pete a tough fight very often. Spidey can win some but for majority's sake, I don't see it.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
Well, Jim Shooter isn't one of my favorite writers for nothing, eh?
Don't you realize that was the plan? By making Wolverine Job to Spider-Ock like that, it makes the fickle Spider-Man fans wet for Superior Spider-Man, and forget the nerd rage of him being replaced in the first place.
I remain unconvinced thus far.
Simple fact being- Peter Parker still has better feats and combat skills. SpOck is only superior in his head.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
In the post above yours, he put down Wolverine in seconds. That doesn't leave much time for Scott especially in the environment in the OP. It looks like Spidey will have plenty of places to hide and swing. The current Spider-Man even knows Kung-Fu, so he should be able to beat Logan worse than usual.
Logan quickly gets webbed up in a ridiculous fashion, unless Cyclops does anything about it. I personally think Spidy will find a way to web them both up.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
Do tell.
From someone who actually read those books, I repeat, do tell.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
Do tell.
From someone who actually read those books, I repeat, do tell.
Wolverine all trussed up in the sky with his claws pointed towards his head is pretty humiliating. Especially after Wolverine's "You're going to have more than you can handle" comment. Seems like Spidey Handled it pretty damn well. What would the other heroes think upon seeing Wolverine in such a state? That story would be tossed around both the Avengers and the X-Men's campfires for years to come Hanging up in the air knowing that the only way you are getting down is when the webbing dissolves and you crash into the ground is a pretty embarrassing position to be in. I would think most people would agree with that.
Wolverine again trash-talking Peter and then getting thrown out a supposedly unbreakable window for his trouble is also pretty embarrassing. Even with the Adamantium Skeleton Peter must have stepped on the gas a bit to accomplish that but he doesn't even break stride doing it.
All I'm saying is Spider-Man has the capability to make a lot of guys look very foolish...even Wolverine. Am I saying that every one of their encounters ends up with Peter making Logan look bad? No. I'm just saying that it's within established parameters for that outcome to happen.
I think the environment is in favor of Spiderman. There's places to swing, hide etc. And enough cars and stuff to throw if need be. Wolverine, would be webbed up and incipacitated quick-time. Cyclops won't be able to tag him.
Team takes this readily ... Superior Spider-Man #16 will see Spidey as "superior" to Wolverine only so far now ... figure fans will get the stardust out of their eyes eventually. And Cyclops is quickly developing into an A-list adversary in his own right.
Bad mix of hand to hand and range for Spider-Man.
However, if Jim Shooter is writing, and this especially in an age where Spider-Man was Marvel's golden ticket, then Spider-Man utterly humiliates the duo.
It doesn't take Jim Shooter's writing to have Spider-Man humiliate Wolverine.
Do tell.
From someone who actually read those books, I repeat, do tell.
Wolverine all trussed up in the sky with his claws pointed towards his head is pretty humiliating. Especially after Wolverine's "You're going to have more than you can handle" comment. Seems like Spidey Handled it pretty damn well. What would the other heroes think upon seeing Wolverine in such a state? That story would be tossed around both the Avengers and the X-Men's campfires for years to come Hanging up in the air knowing that the only way you are getting down is when the webbing dissolves and you crash into the ground is a pretty embarrassing position to be in. I would think most people would agree with that.
Wolverine again trash-talking Peter and then getting thrown out a supposedly unbreakable window for his trouble is also pretty embarrassing. Even with the Adamantium Skeleton Peter must have stepped on the gas a bit to accomplish that but he doesn't even break stride doing it.
All I'm saying is Spider-Man has the capability to make a lot of guys look very foolish...even Wolverine. Am I saying that every one of their encounters ends up with Peter making Logan look bad? No. I'm just saying that it's within established parameters for that outcome to happen.
I disagree with your interpretation of these occasions as 'humiliation' along with your omission of their end result along with some core context.
I actually like these showings because they create a fun dynamic between these two icons. While on a personality level they are diametrically opposed, fundamentally they act like two siblings engaged in sibling rivalry. Spider-Man the "happy-go-lucky" prankster taking "Mister Serious" samurai man lightly, while Logan for his part knows exactly how to push Parker's buttons piercing his jester role and eliciting more serious responses. Parker brings the smart @$$ 'big brother' out in Logan, while Logan inspires more serious 'angry man' undertones and pulls out the rebellious little brother in Parker.
So yeah, these two showings are not battles, they represent character development. Parker ends an argument by webbing Wolverine up ... the look on Logan's face is priceless. Seconds later, Wolverine has cut himself loose. No harm, no foul. In Avengers tower, Wolverine pushes Parker's buttons and gets punched out of Avenger's Tower. Seconds later, we see a grumbling Logan walking back in the building no worse for wear. No harm, no foul. Both are sucker punches with perfectly acceptable results, not battles.
It's not like these moments amounted to much. They were fun moments for fans. That is all.
Wolverine having Parker pissing in his PJ's in the cemetery, laughing off his every blow, or schooling him readily on the rooftops is more akin to 'humiliation' than these showings ... as those were actual fights.
What would the other heroes think upon seeing Wolverine in such a state? That story would be tossed around both the Avengers and the X-Men's campfires for years to come Hanging up in the air knowing that the only way you are getting down is when the webbing dissolves and you crash into the ground is a pretty embarrassing position to be in.
Just to be clear, that right there tells me you hang on the one pic floating around the Vine, without ever having read the story. Wolverine didn't wait for the webbing to dissolve ... he cut himself loose in seconds.
Personally, I don't think his friends would be all that happy to see Wolverine having to claw into his own flesh to cut himself loose like that - healing factor notwithstanding. Would you enjoy that spectacle were it your teammate and friend? Doubt it ... unless your basic psychological state of mind is very questionable ... the fact he did it makes him badass IMHO.
@jashro44: How serious/motivated is Peter to win? Or is this just a normal encounter between him and the duo?
If its just a normal encounter i'll go with the team. If Spider-man is properly motivated and taking them seriously he could win via web incap.
Hmmm... I never really thought about motivation. I guess we will say Peter believes a random innocent person he doesn't know live is in danger if he loses. However motivated that will make him.
@jashro44: Hmm in that case i'd go with Spider-man. If he believes and innocent is going to be hurt if he fails he's gonna go all out (not out of morals of course but to the best of his ability with morals on). Peter believing if he fails someone will get hurt is going to shift him into high gear and he'll most likely spam webbing to try and end the fight asap.
@Super_SoldierXII: All I said was that both examples of Logan being put in an embarrassing position by Peter. It really doesn't matter what happened after...I know Peter wouldn't have expected Wolverine to claw through his own skin to get out. Logan clawing out is definitely bad ass...but it doesn't change he was put into a humiliating situation in the first place. And really, I wasn't talking about the other heroes coming by and watching him claw through his own flesh as being some kind of morbid entertainment. I was talking about had they just seen him trussed up like that...they all would have gotten a good chuckle...until he pops the claws. It's a good example of how badass Wolverine is...and I'm cool with that....because Wolverine is a badass. If you don't agree that Peter leaving Wolverine hung up in the sky is an embarrassing position then there's really nothing left for us to discuss about that incident.
No...they aren't battles. They are examples of how Spider-Man can deal with Wolverine before it even becomes a battle. Peter knew in both of those situations that Logan wasn't going to come to any actual harm...so he dealt with him in a way that got him out of his hair quickly.
It's amusing because they are both examples of Wolverine's healing factor being used against him. Peter would never do something like that to most other people...but knowing that Logan will survive it with very little damage other than to his pride gives Peter an out.
I disagree with your assessment of both being a "Sucker Punch". In the first example...Wolverine gives Spidey a "Come at me, Bro" line...and then is left hanging. In the second...If Logan had been talking to anyone else saying the things he was saying...he'd have been expecting a fight.If he expected. In either example...If Logan expected Peter to just walk away after that...he really doesn't know Peter that well. Both attacks were made in a situation where Wolverine should have been expecting something. He got caught flatfooted both times.
I think the environment is in favor of Spiderman. There's places to swing, hide etc. And enough cars and stuff to throw if need be. Wolverine, would be webbed up and incipacitated quick-time. Cyclops won't be able to tag him.
@Strider92 said:
@jashro44: How serious/motivated is Peter to win? Or is this just a normal encounter between him and the duo?
If its just a normal encounter i'll go with the team. If Spider-man is properly motivated and taking them seriously he could win via web incap.
@jashro44: How serious/motivated is Peter to win? Or is this just a normal encounter between him and the duo?
If its just a normal encounter i'll go with the team. If Spider-man is properly motivated and taking them seriously he could win via web incap.
Hmmm ... I never really thought about motivation. I guess we will say Peter believes a random innocent person he doesn't know live is in danger if he loses. However motivated that will make him.
Sure. OK. But motivation can be universally applied really. Give Wolverine proper motivation ... Mariko dies if he fails to lend one example. Or Cyclops - the fate of mutant kind rests on his victory, Jean Grey's life hangs in the balance ... etc. etc. etc.
Motivation is a real cheap way to rationalize a majority win for your fan favorite IMHO.
@jashro44: How serious/motivated is Peter to win? Or is this just a normal encounter between him and the duo?
If its just a normal encounter i'll go with the team. If Spider-man is properly motivated and taking them seriously he could win via web incap.
Hmmm ... I never really thought about motivation. I guess we will say Peter believes a random innocent person he doesn't know live is in danger if he loses. However motivated that will make him.
Sure. OK. But motivation can be universally applied really. Give Wolverine proper motivation ... Mariko dies if he fails to lend one example. Or Cyclops - the fate of mutant kind rests on his victory, Jean Grey's life hangs in the balance ... etc. etc. etc.
Motivation is a real cheap way to rationalize a majority win for your fan favorite IMHO.
I was mainly decided to give spider-man that sort of motivation to make it more debatable since I was asked. If you think it makes things unfair in his favor I can change it to make it more even to just be a random misunderstanding.
@Super_SoldierXII: All I said was that both examples of Logan being put in an embarrassing position by Peter. It really doesn't matter what happened after...I know Peter wouldn't have expected Wolverine to claw through his own skin to get out. Logan clawing out is definitely bad ass...but it doesn't change he was put into a humiliating situation in the first place. And really, I wasn't talking about the other heroes coming by and watching him claw through his own flesh as being some kind of morbid entertainment. I was talking about had they just seen him trussed up like that...they all would have gotten a good chuckle...until he pops the claws. It's a good example of how badass Wolverine is...and I'm cool with that....because Wolverine is a badass. If you don't agree that Peter leaving Wolverine hung up in the sky is an embarrassing position then there's really nothing left for us to discuss about that incident.
I disagree. They weren't embarrassing situations and it does matter what happened after. Embarrassing is not the right word. Entertaining perhaps ...
No...they aren't battles. They are examples of how Spider-Man can deal with Wolverine before it even becomes a battle. Peter knew in both of those situations that Logan wasn't going to come to any actual harm...so he dealt with him in a way that got him out of his hair quickly.
Sure, he knew how dangerous it would be to try and stop Wolverine, so he got out of it the only sure way he could ... incapacitate via 'sucker punch' and run away. Which is exactly what happened.
It's amusing because they are both examples of Wolverine's healing factor being used against him. Peter would never do something like that to most other people...but knowing that Logan will survive it with very little damage other than to his pride gives Peter an out.
Agreed.
I disagree with your assessment of both being a "Sucker Punch". In the first example...Wolverine gives Spidey a "Come at me, Bro" line...and then is left hanging. In the second...If Logan had been talking to anyone else saying the things he was saying...he'd have been expecting a fight.If he expected. In either example...If Logan expected Peter to just walk away after that...he really doesn't know Peter that well. Both attacks were made in a situation where Wolverine should have been expecting something. He got caught flatfooted both times.
OK. Sucker punch might not have been the best term to use. It was an ultimatum Logan was giving in the alley scene, I agree. But they were not fighting and Wolverine was not on the offensive. In the second, yes, Wolverine was antagonist ... in fact, I think that showing is grossly out of character and that Logan deserved getting tossed out the building (can you imagine the honorable Claremont Samurai version Wolverine touting such bull$h!t? I can't - more writers butchering the characterization of the classic Wolverine I grew up reading). But they were still arguing, not fighting. In both scenarios, Spider-Man won via temporary incapacitation - which he should do (especially considering the environment). This is not 'humiliation'. Not at all.
@jashro44: How serious/motivated is Peter to win? Or is this just a normal encounter between him and the duo?
If its just a normal encounter i'll go with the team. If Spider-man is properly motivated and taking them seriously he could win via web incap.
Hmmm ... I never really thought about motivation. I guess we will say Peter believes a random innocent person he doesn't know live is in danger if he loses. However motivated that will make him.
Sure. OK. But motivation can be universally applied really. Give Wolverine proper motivation ... Mariko dies if he fails to lend one example. Or Cyclops - the fate of mutant kind rests on his victory, Jean Grey's life hangs in the balance ... etc. etc. etc.
Motivation is a real cheap way to rationalize a majority win for your fan favorite IMHO.
I was mainly decided to give spider-man that sort of motivation to make it more debatable since I was asked. If you think it makes things unfair in his favor I can change it to make it more even to just be a random misunderstanding.
It's essentially a "moral's off" Spider-Man versus a Wolverine who, as we recently witnessed, will "not" pop his claws or hurt Parker because, to be quite frank, he sees him as his younger brother and has a soft spot for him (much like he does Kitty Pride and Jubilee). Spider-Man would walk through Logan in such a scenario.
Cyclops will also never unleash on Parker and if Spidey doesn't feel likewise ...
@Super_SoldierXII: I don't think its the same thing as morals off spider-man vs cyclops and wolverine. Peter might think someones life is in danger all though he still wont try to kill the team. And I don't think Peter really ever did hold back on wolverine. In the grave yard fight he hit him with everything he had, in the roof top encounter he was hitting with enough force to destroy a chimney, and he tossed wolverine out of a building before as well as shawnbaby posted. So he has always been willing to use lethal force. Really I think wolverine should have did better in avenging spider-man 16. All I really see the motivation doing is Peter being a bit more serious.
@Super_SoldierXII: I don't think its the same thing as morals off spider-man vs cyclops and wolverine. Peter might think someones life is in danger all though he still wont try to kill the team. And I don't think Peter really ever did hold back on wolverine. In the grave yard fight he hit him with everything he had, in the roof top encounter he was hitting with enough force to destroy a chimney, and he tossed wolverine out of a building before as well as shawnbaby posted. So he has always been willing to use lethal force. Really I think wolverine should have did better in avenging spider-man 16. All I really see the motivation doing is Peter being a bit more serious.
As Shawnbaby stated quite eloquently, Peter really doesn't hold back with his blows against Logan- which is why I highly question (although somewhat enjoyed :-) ) SpOck beating Logan like he did.
As you can see Peter was pissed off. And Logan brushed it off and tackled him in the next slide. I would to take exception to the fight against Logan on the Rooftop however. Peter thought someone was impersonating Logan, and as soon as he threw the Chimney destroying punch, held back throughout the rest of the fight, as he feared he might not be fighting someone with any powers. As soon as he realized it was Logan, there was no need to fight Logan anymore.
Guys, I know all these fights ... I practically wrote the book on them in many of the more prominent battle threads containing Logan and Parker. In fact, it's safe to say, god_spawn and myself went a ways to equalize and circumvent many unfounded beliefs circulating the Vine a few years back, that Spider-Man would curb-stomp Wolverine with ease.
That said, I don't think you're reading what I'm saying in the light with which I'm saying it. Spider-Man doesn't hold back on Wolverine because he knows he won't kill him. Agreed. And maybe Spider-Man probably shouldn't have walked all over Wolverine in Superior Spider-Man #16 ... that's oddly where I'm not so sure. For one, it's obvious Wolverine was holding back, sure, but perhaps for the first time, we see a Spider-Man striking Wolverine not just out of anger, not just because he knows he won't hurt him, but out of actual malicious intent.
SpOck, unlike Parker, actually relished the thought of hurting Wolverine. There's a distinct difference.
Let's assume Parker has something to actually fight for here, then yes, he could win. But I still wouldn't give him a majority. Not if the duo were written with any degree reflecting their actual potential.
@Super_SoldierXII: I dunno...The second example isn't a very good character showing from either of them. Logan certainly deserved to be thrown out a window for what he said (which you are right...it isn't really something he would ever say. )...But Peter, even knowing Wolverine wouldn't take any real damage from the fall...wouldn't toss a 300 pound man with an unbreakable skeleton out of a skyscraper and directly into traffic. The danger to Logan may be minimal...the danger to anyone in Logan's path is much greater.
I would agree with you that in a properly written straight up H2H fight Peter won't be stomping Logan. And neither should Logan stomp him. They are just too evenly matched for that to ever happen. Wolverine has the Skill and Durability advantage....Spidey has the Speed, Agility, and Spider-Sense (Strength as well...but since Peter doesn't have the striking power to really put Logan down for more than a couple seconds...its not really a huge factor). Any properly written match between them should go on for an incredibly long time before either one of them begins to tire.
As regards "humiliation" well...I think we just look at it differently. Personally, I think It was pretty humiliating for Wolverine to be left strung up like a Christmas turkey.
As regards the Jim Shooter Secret Wars encounter. Well, On that score we are in complete agreement. Spider-Man just ripping through the X-Men like that is terrible PIS. It wasn't the first example of bad writing in that series and it wasn't the last.
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