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#1 Edited by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules and Conditions

  • Spider-man is in a pure blood lust form. He is being controlled by a brutal but very professional telepath.
  • Team 2: Captain America, Wolverine, Daredevil and Hawkeye have their morals on (still at their best).
  • The battle/fight takes place in a crowded and populated location in Forest Hills, New York City, New York. Spider-man is careless of his surroundings.
  • Team 2 must fight Spider-man to near-death , while Spider-man is fighting to murder the team.
  • No preparation for Spider-man while the team have 10 minutes which they get to travel to the fight scene.
  • Standard equipment for each member in this battle.
  • Spider-man has an extra set of web shooters if needed.

FIGHT

Vouile

#2 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Spider-Man.

Location hugely favors Parker.

Hate to say it ... but I don't see team winning.

He should be able to dodge most of Hawkeye's arrows, trick or otherwise, bloodlusted.

Wolverine is the only real threat, but he'll get webbed up and won't be able to do much about it in the requisite time frame.

#3 Posted by MonsterStomp (15848 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough.

I see a bloodlusted Spidey paring with Logan, DD and CA for a while. Hawkeyes arrow comes out of no where to put parker down. Boom.

I think the team could take it 6.5/10.

Online
#4 Posted by MonsterStomp (15848 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually I change my answer. Spidey isn't dumb enough to take on 3 combatant H2H. Spidey takes it.

Online
#5 Posted by SwordandShields (712 posts) - - Show Bio

As long as Spiderman fights any one in NYC he takes it mostly and in this case he still takes it. now if it was a plain field then Woloverine could solo.

#6 Posted by SexualLobster (995 posts) - - Show Bio

I say Spider-Man, if he was bloodlusted everyone but Wolverine woud be one-shotted except for maybe Cap, but the second shot woud kill him

#7 Posted by SpeedForceSpider (902 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider Man should take this with little difficulty. But being bloodlust he won't be holding back. And yeah I do agree the location is completely in his favor so the others are gonna be screwed with morals.

#8 Posted by sync1 (2823 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure the team can think of a way to take out Spidey. The combination of Cap and Logan's tactical skills will benefit the Team more than the map benefits Spidey.

Team 6/10.

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (12901 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Spider-Man in the right state of mind? I know he's being controlled and is bloodlusted, but is he still thinking clearly? If not, team might be able to outsmart somehow.

If he's in control, he wins.

@SwordandShields said:

As long as Spiderman fights any one in NYC he takes it mostly and in this case he still takes it. now if it was a plain field then Woloverine could solo.

#10 Posted by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Is Spider-Man in the right state of mind? I know he's being controlled and is bloodlusted, but is he still thinking clearly? If not, team might be able to outsmart somehow.

If he's in control, he wins.

@SwordandShields said:

As long as Spiderman fights any one in NYC he takes it mostly and in this case he still takes it. now if it was a plain field then Woloverine could solo.

Spider-man is thinking clearly. He is thinking at his his best due to being blood lusted. ^-^

Vouile

#11 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil has beaten an essentially bloodlusted/crazy ticked-off Spidey before all by himself. He wasn't thinking all that clearly, but even making him a clear-headed but enraged Spidey doesn't make up for all those guys. The team wins.

#12 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

#13 Posted by MFrenzy11 (467 posts) - - Show Bio

imma say team 2

#14 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

#15 Posted by jashro44 (19594 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

Daredevil has beaten an essentially bloodlusted/crazy ticked-off Spidey before all by himself. He wasn't thinking all that clearly, but even making him a clear-headed but enraged Spidey doesn't make up for all those guys. The team wins.

In the same fight daredevil stated he wouldn't have beaten spider-man had it not been due to his emotional state. Spider-man non jobbing wins.

#16 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

In an actual comic book, no way would Spider-Man be written as winning a fight against that team. Not in a million. Editors would have field day.

Given his power set and abilities though, and given the location, a bloodlusted Spider-Man not holding back should win.

His webbing alone would incapacitate Steve and Logan relatively quickly due to location. Murdock would be harder to tag, but Parker's far faster, more skilled nowadays (EDIT: certainly not more skilled than Matt, I mean more skilled than he was back in the day - just making sure that was clear!), and won't be pulling back. Matt's radar senses would only do so much to belay the inevitable.

Hawkeye, oddly enough, is their ace in the hole. Not all too familiar with his standard 'trick' arrows. He'd have to have something with wicked area of effect, as that's the only way even a marksman of his caliber would be tagging a bloodlusted Parker IMHO.

#17 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

In an actual comic book, no way would Spider-Man be written as winning a fight against that team. Not in a million. Editors would have field day.

Given his power set and abilities though, and given the location, a bloodlusted Spider-Man not holding back should win.

His webbing alone would incapacitate Steve and Logan relatively quickly due to location. Murdock would be harder to tag, but Parker's far faster, more skilled nowadays, and won't be pulling back. Matt's radar senses would only do so much to belay the inevitable.

Hawkeye, oddly enough, is their ace in the hole. Not all too familiar with his standard 'trick' arrows. He'd have to have something with wicked area of effect, as that's the only way even a marksman of his caliber would be tagging a bloodlusted Parker IMHO.

Yeah, it's one of those things. On the one hand, battles are supposed to be PIS off, and in that case, Spidey seems to be way above these guys. On the other hand, battles are supposed to be about feats, and all these guys have plenty of feats that would let them play on the Spidey level. I think you're right though, Hawkeye's sonic arrows (or something similar) may be a big help.

#18 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

Did someone say Hawkeye?

#19 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

In an actual comic book, no way would Spider-Man be written as winning a fight against that team. Not in a million. Editors would have field day.

Given his power set and abilities though, and given the location, a bloodlusted Spider-Man not holding back should win.

His webbing alone would incapacitate Steve and Logan relatively quickly due to location. Murdock would be harder to tag, but Parker's far faster, more skilled nowadays, and won't be pulling back. Matt's radar senses would only do so much to belay the inevitable.

Hawkeye, oddly enough, is their ace in the hole. Not all too familiar with his standard 'trick' arrows. He'd have to have something with wicked area of effect, as that's the only way even a marksman of his caliber would be tagging a bloodlusted Parker IMHO.

Yeah, it's one of those things. On the one hand, battles are supposed to be PIS off, and in that case, Spidey seems to be way above these guys. On the other hand, battles are supposed to be about feats, and all these guys have plenty of feats that would let them play on the Spidey level. I think you're right though, Hawkeye's sonic arrows (or something similar) may be a big help.

Agreed.

I guess it also depends on the kind of teamwork they could pull off. They're all top guns. If they work together, they might be able to make something happen.

#20 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter. As stated, only Logan is a credible threat. The Daredevil fight was PIS and completely outdated even it weren't PIS in light of more recent showings of bloodlusted Peter (vs. Fisk, vs. Kravinoffs) and doesn't take into consideration Peter's markedly more advanced fighting skills and superior current standard gear.

#21 Posted by Strider92 (16098 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think Hawkeye is the teams MVP. While they won't win a majority due to Spider-mans webbing Hawkeye is the only one who has a chance to turn the tables. Spider-man takes the win but without HE the fight would be over a lot faster.

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#22 Posted by Deathangel458 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

Since spidey can't really kill wolverine or captain with web he will have to come up close to the team for fist combat .hawkeye will then shoot spidey in the hands or legs while he is fighting Wolvie

#23 Edited by Shawnbaby (10418 posts) - - Show Bio

If Parker weren't Bloodlusted the Team could probably take him down. Individually, they've all given him pretty good fights in character. As it stands...Spider-Man wins this. Cap, Hawkeye, and DD would be lucky just to survive a full force hit from a Bloodlusted Spider-Man...they certainly won't be in any condition to fight after one.

#24 Posted by Deathangel458 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you mean by they can't take a full force hit.wolverine and cap have taken hits from people stronger than spidey

#25 Posted by Shawnbaby (10418 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deathangel458 said:

What do you mean by they can't take a full force hit.wolverine and cap have taken hits from people stronger than spidey

First, I didn't say Wolverine couldn't take a hit from Spidey...I said Cap, DD, and Hawkeye.

Second, Cap is only peak Human....he has Peak Human Durability. He can't shrug off a full force hit from a 10+ tonner.

#26 Posted by Deathangel458 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

But he has a shield

#27 Posted by Shawnbaby (10418 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deathangel458 said:

But he has a shield

and spidey has webs to take that shield away. hes also much faster than anyone on the team and had spider-sense. Bloodlusted, he will not hold back the way he would if this were in character

#28 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

The prob though is that you take the fights out of context. DD has never really beaten spidey, at the very best he humiliated him. Spidey also has beaten DD even at the worst conditions( no spidey sense ). It's just that we take logic over some showings that are forced to happen as they did in order to keep the reader interested. Spidey has plenty ability feats that puts him above from the team he fights. So just because some fights needed to happen as they did in order to be even, it doesn't mean they can be used to say that this person can beat the other. Also Logan has never beaten spidey under normal conditions and vice versa. So since most of their fights, can't prove who is the actual winner, we take the abilities and feats of each one and we decide.

As for bloodlusted, i doubt it's overrated. Spidey's serious moments have proven to us that it's not overrated.

:)

#29 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

A bloodlusted Spider-man would beat the crap outta the team; only Logan would prove to be troublesome, the rest don't have the ability to withstand punches from a 10 tonner like Spidey

#30 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter in blood-lust against a morals on team? Even with morals, Peter would be a credible threat to the team due to his power-set. With blood-lust, this almost turns into a re-imagining of Grim Hunt where Peter relentlessly took out each member of the Kravinoff family as if they were play things.

Moderator
#31 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

The prob though is that you take the fights out of context. DD has never really beaten spidey, at the very best he humiliated him. Spidey also has beaten DD even at the worst conditions( no spidey sense ). It's just that we take logic over some showings that are forced to happen as they did in order to keep the reader interested. Spidey has plenty ability feats that puts him above from the team he fights. So just because some fights needed to happen as they did in order to be even, it doesn't mean they can be used to say that this person can beat the other. Also Logan has never beaten spidey under normal conditions and vice versa. So since most of their fights, can't prove who is the actual winner, we take the abilities and feats of each one and we decide.

As for bloodlusted, i doubt it's overrated. Spidey's serious moments have proven to us that it's not overrated.

:)

I certainly agree that while Spidey has lost to some these guys individually, he has also won against them individually. But deciding whether a particular fight is or is not legit, or is or is not PIS, becomes a hopeless mire. I just think it's funny because over on another thread I'm on, everyone is arguing about the primacy of feats and the unimportance of logic, while here feats are discounted and logic is given more emphasis. The inconsistency of comics feats is equivalent to the inconsistency of the application of the rules of debate! :)

(I am actually a bigger fan of logic than feats myself.)

But I'm really not basing my feeling that the team will will so much on their individual feats vs Spidey, as much as I base it on their feats against other characters. They're all used to fighting super-fast, super strong dudes. Plus, while Spidey is fast, his webs don't travel any faster than any other projectile, so Cap, Wolvie, and DD can dodge them fairly well. They're all more skilled than him, by a long shot, even taking Spidey Fu into account, and Spidey isn't always at his best when fighting more-skilled opponents. They have better tactical ability, and they have prep in this battle, which Cap can certainly use well. Since they are arriving after Spidey, Hawkeye can shoot from a distance and doesn't have to worry about getting up close. He could shoot a sonic arrow, which isn't dodgable, then the others could pile on afterwards. And they obviously have the advantage of numbers and multiple kinds of attacks (I won't bring up Spidey's fights with the Enforcers here!). Cap's shield can take a Spidey punch. Wolverine's healing factor and bones can take a Spidey punch. And according to the OP, Spidey wins by killing the team, which just isn't going to happen with Wolverine, who got continuously blasted by Cyclops from a foot away and kept fighting.

Don't get me wrong, an unleashed Spidey is a tough cookie, I just see the team as more effective.

#32 Posted by VeganDiet (978 posts) - - Show Bio

Spidey One-hit kills everyone but Logan. He then webs him up, and bludgeons him with a car until KO-ed.

Bloodlusted Spidey is wayyyy too much for the team.

Morals on Spidey should give a good fight.

#33 Posted by ComicKID777 (287 posts) - - Show Bio

team 2. there all thinkers. they would scope the sitution out an beat spider-man by being a group

#34 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

Spidey destroys the team. I see his only real challenge being Wolverine. Cap'Hawkeye' and DD go down fairly easy.

#35 Posted by gingerpenny (908 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine could do this alone, adding the others just makes it over kill

#36 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone saying he's 'way' too much, are going a little bit too far.

Spidey's cool and all, but each member on the team are A-Listers. If you think Spidey wipes the floor with them that easily, then you are basing this far too much off power sets whilst having read far too little DD, CA and Wolverine respectively ... each have feats proving them to be contenders.

(And CA is enhanced. Not peak human. Senses, healing, intelligence, running speed, endurance - all are enhanced. If he's peak human, than he's one standing head and shoulders above all other Marvel peak human's based off feats.)

As I alluded to earlier, Hawkeye could conceivable one shot Spidey too pending on arrow artillery he has on him. I'm not the most knowledgeable on Hawkeye. If someone who knows the character wants to point out a few trick arrows with area of effect capabilities, it could be a game changer.

Wolverine could tank with DD and Steve running interference long enough for Hawkeye to get off that one telling shot ...

#37 Edited by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

The prob though is that you take the fights out of context. DD has never really beaten spidey, at the very best he humiliated him. Spidey also has beaten DD even at the worst conditions( no spidey sense ). It's just that we take logic over some showings that are forced to happen as they did in order to keep the reader interested. Spidey has plenty ability feats that puts him above from the team he fights. So just because some fights needed to happen as they did in order to be even, it doesn't mean they can be used to say that this person can beat the other. Also Logan has never beaten spidey under normal conditions and vice versa. So since most of their fights, can't prove who is the actual winner, we take the abilities and feats of each one and we decide.

As for bloodlusted, i doubt it's overrated. Spidey's serious moments have proven to us that it's not overrated.

:)

I certainly agree that while Spidey has lost to some these guys individually, he has also won against them individually. But deciding whether a particular fight is or is not legit, or is or is not PIS, becomes a hopeless mire. I just think it's funny because over on another thread I'm on, everyone is arguing about the primacy of feats and the unimportance of logic, while here feats are discounted and logic is given more emphasis. The inconsistency of comics feats is equivalent to the inconsistency of the application of the rules of debate! :)

(I am actually a bigger fan of logic than feats myself.)

But I'm really not basing my feeling that the team will will so much on their individual feats vs Spidey, as much as I base it on their feats against other characters. They're all used to fighting super-fast, super strong dudes. Plus, while Spidey is fast, his webs don't travel any faster than any other projectile, so Cap, Wolvie, and DD can dodge them fairly well. They're all more skilled than him, by a long shot, even taking Spidey Fu into account, and Spidey isn't always at his best when fighting more-skilled opponents. They have better tactical ability, and they have prep in this battle, which Cap can certainly use well. Since they are arriving after Spidey, Hawkeye can shoot from a distance and doesn't have to worry about getting up close. He could shoot a sonic arrow, which isn't dodgable, then the others could pile on afterwards. And they obviously have the advantage of numbers and multiple kinds of attacks (I won't bring up Spidey's fights with the Enforcers here!). Cap's shield can take a Spidey punch. Wolverine's healing factor and bones can take a Spidey punch. And according to the OP, Spidey wins by killing the team, which just isn't going to happen with Wolverine, who got continuously blasted by Cyclops from a foot away and kept fighting.

Don't get me wrong, an unleashed Spidey is a tough cookie, I just see the team as more effective.

I think it's stupid to ignore logic at some points. Yes, spider-man got powers instead of dying for example, and we count it as a valid event. That kind of logic is forced to be accepted, but that doesn't mean i have to ignore every stupid thing because it's a comic. There is a reason why normal humans( civilians ) in comics are just like us. Because writers, as much as they base their stories in fantasy, they still write about a world just like ours. Have we ever seen a civilian suddenly flying for no reason, without an extraordinary even causing it? It's sci-fi, yes, but that doesn't mean stupidity should be over logic.

My point is, yes, the team constantly fights super humans, but the writers make it as much believable as possible. Cap and Logan are skilled low level super humans, so there is some kind of logic behind it. DD is peak human( in our world apart from theories, i don't think we have anyone achieving that kind of level, so writers just make their own theory of a peak human, an giving him the feats that are needed to make him impressive ), so still he has extraordinary feats, but not the point that are stupid and beyond logic. DD is not just a normal civilian walking in the streets and suddenly dodging bullets from a thief in a dark corner(lol).

So, DD, Cap etc... fight super humans and dodge bullets. At some point it makes sense, due to the specialty of their physical ability and technical knowledge, but we don't see them fight guys like Silver Surfer or Hulk and we take it as valid feats. Most of their opponents would be either just super strong, or just super durable, or just super fast. That gives them some kind of advantage due to great skills and reflexes( allowing them to counter the superior strength or durability of their opponents ).

Now to the fight. Spidey as the superiority in speed, strength, agility and of course the sixth sense that allows him to tell what his opponents would do and react to that properly. That power alone, can be the most challenging power the team has ever faced, because when it is combined with spidey's physical advantages, it would be almost impossible to hit him(as his serious moments has proven ), let alone beat him. As for webbing, yeah, it's not that fast, but spidey has proven he can use his spider-sense to tag them( just like he did when he fought DD in SHadowland). I don't believe Hawkeye or DD would be much of a help here( Spidey has been a really hard target for Hawkeye before, as he has proven in an issue of the untold tales of spider-man ), and yes a sonic arrow would be a deciding factor, but i don't think spidey would hesitate to take him out first, when he knows what Hawkeye can do. As for the rest, in these kind of conditions, neither cap nor DD can be proven much of a challenge against a bloodlusted Pete in close combat. As for Logan, i thought that was a mistake from the OP, because i see no way how it could be a fair fight, if spidey has to kill'em all.

I don't doubt that the team can win with a good use of teamwork, but i just see a skilled, bloodlusted spidey, being too much for a team with most members not being durable enough to take his hits,

:)

#38 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidey 15:

One thing I would add though, is someone who is bloodlusted does not tend to utilize strategy - they are not in a rational state. They take out and kill whoever is in front of them. So I really don't think Parker's going to consciously and strategically gun for Hawkeye first. Especially when we all know Logan will be flying in his face first up (as Wolverine always does).

#39 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: I'm not sure how does that actually work. For example in Grim Hunt( spidey was at his most bloodlusted ) but he seemed to be working with a strategy taking each one out and not all together. At least that's how i saw it. Also spidey doesn't fight unknown opponents. He knows all of them amazingly well since they are teammates and he knows what anyone could do to him. If he really wants to kill them, he has to fight smart and not let them take the edge over him. So it's only logical to go for the deciding factor( Hawkeye ) first. I seriously don't think spidey is that stupid when it comes to battle, to ignore Hawkeye.

:)

#40 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidey 15:

I'm not saying he'd 'ignore' Hawkeye necessarily. I'm saying the fact he's bloodlusted coupled with the fact he would, first and foremost, have Wolverine up in his face to deal with, should leave space for Hawkeye to get the shot he needs.

A bloodlusted Spidey is most certainly not stupid, but in rage he would not be able to resist taking it to Logan when Wolverine is coming at him claws out. That, and I'm not sure Wolverine would give him the choice. It should at the least buy Hawkeye the second he needs really.

Point is, being bloodlusted will probably make him less pensive / cautious and far more direct. That and Spider-Man has three other top tier heroes to contend with before just 'marching over' and taking out Hawkeye.

#41 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man

#42 Posted by Shawnbaby (10418 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@spidey 15:

I'm not saying he'd 'ignore' Hawkeye necessarily. I'm saying the fact he's bloodlusted coupled with the fact he would, first and foremost, have Wolverine up in his face to deal with, should leave space for Hawkeye to get the shot he needs.

A bloodlusted Spidey is most certainly not stupid, but in rage he would not be able to resist taking it to Logan when Wolverine is coming at him claws out. That, and I'm not sure Wolverine would give him the choice. It should at the least buy Hawkeye the second he needs really.

Point is, being bloodlusted will probably make him less pensive / cautious and far more direct. That and Spider-Man has three other top tier heroes to contend with before just 'marching over' and taking out Hawkeye.

Blood lusted or not...Spidey still has his Spider-Sense...I doubt Clint is tagging him with anything easily. I wouldn't be surprised if he used Logan to intercept anything Clint shot at him

Like I said earlier...If Peter were in character...the Team would probably be able to wear him down because he will be holding back. Bloodlusted, though...They are at a severe power disadvantage. Cap, DD, and Hawkeye could all conceivably be one-shot (if not killed outright then at least seriously injured or KO'd. Cap DD and Logan are all still more skilled than him in h2h...but his way of the spider, combined with his agility and Spider-Sense, closes that gap considerably...and even before then all of them have had extreme difficulty tagging Peter. Peter, in character, has made Wolverine look like a fool enough times to establish consistency. DD has said that even when Peter Telegraphs his moves...He is still unable to dodge them. Normally, Cap would be Peter's biggest problem...because Peter practically worships Steve...but that won't be a factor in this encounter. As for Clint...Peter has been shown to move faster than Hawkeye's arrows.

All in all I would say that Peter being less pensive and cautious will work out poorly for the team. They've never fought a Bloodlusted Spider-Man...they won't know what to expect from him.

The toughest thing here is that Spider-Man needs to earn Victory through Killing the Team...and that's going to be pretty difficult to do with Logan's Adamantium and Healing Factor.

#43 Posted by Big_Nasty (342 posts) - - Show Bio

This is to much for spider-man to handle.

#44 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter was bloodlusted during Grim Hunt and he still utilized stealth to take out Alyosha. He was also bloodlusted during Back in Black but managed to fight and think logically. There is a substantial difference between being bloodlusted and being out of your mind, or in a bestial berserker-type mindset. Also, from what I've seen, Hawkeye doesn't carry or utilize trick arrows any more. I've read plenty of his more recent Avengers issues and his solo series and he just doesn't make use of anything aside from standard arrows with any frequency at all.

#45 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

I was referring to sonics or other area of effect arrows. He wouldn't need a direct hit. Which brings me to BringnIt's post;

@BringnIt:

Pretty sure you're wrong about Clint using or at the very least, carrying, only regular, run of the mill arrows. Heck, in just this thread, there's pics of him taking out Steve with a 'trick' arrow in a recent showing no less (EDIT: not in this thread, rather, a subsequent one made by the same OP wherein Steve is pitted hand to hand against Cyclops, Clint and Gambit - no powers). And I never meant Parker would be completely irrational. But being bloodlusted would hamper your logic and strategic thinking all the same.

And I guess we have different definitions of the term 'bloodlusted'. Because in Grim Hunt, while his morals definitely took a back seat, I wouldn't call that 'bloodlusted'. More 'morals off'. There is a difference.

Bloodlusted, he'd be happy to deal with the threat presently flying up in his face with impunity. And that second is all Clint would need. Bloodlusted, Parker wouldn't be satisfied until all his opponents were dead.

I'll coin a phrase you used with me once upon a time; respectfully, if you're addressing points I've made, it would be cool if you could give me a heads up via the 'reply' button. Otherwise, I've no opportunity to redress comments made about my posts. Thank you sir! :)

#46 Posted by Shawnbaby (10418 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

I was referring to sonics or other area of effect arrows. He wouldn't need a direct hit. Which brings me to BringnIt's post;

@BringnIt:

Pretty sure you're wrong about Clint using or at the very least, carrying, only regular, run of the mill arrows. Heck, in just this thread, there's pics of him taking out Steve with a 'trick' arrow in a recent showing no less (EDIT: not in this thread, rather, a subsequent one made by the same OP wherein Steve is pitted hand to hand against Cyclops, Clint and Gambit - no powers). And I never meant Parker would be completely irrational. But being bloodlusted would hamper your logic and strategic thinking all the same.

And I guess we have different definitions of the term 'bloodlusted'. Because in Grim Hunt, while his morals definitely took a back seat, I wouldn't call that 'bloodlusted'. More 'morals off'. There is a difference.

Bloodlusted, he'd be happy to deal with the threat presently flying up in his face with impunity. And that second is all Clint would need. Bloodlusted, Parker wouldn't be satisfied until all his opponents were dead.

I'll coin a phrase you used with me once upon a time; respectfully, if you're addressing points I've made, it would be cool if you could give me a heads up via the 'reply' button. Otherwise, I've no opportunity to redress comments made about my posts. Thank you sir! :)

Ah Sonic arrows...I confess I had not considered that possibility....although I'm not sure Clint has any Arrows like that that would be powerful enough to take down Spidey without also hurting his teammates. It's tricky business using Sonic Based attacks with someone like Daredevil on your side (and to a lesser extent Wolverine). One also has to be really careful using AoE attacks on Spider-Man as well...Spider-Sense can sometimes be specific enough to warn him about threats like that in a way that he can use those attacks against your team.

I don't want to give the impression that i'm trying to lowball the skills involved by the team here. Under the right circumstances Cap, DD, and Logan should all be capable of giving Peter a pretty good fight... but a lot of that comes from Spider-Man's unwillingness to hurt them (which is why he typically can cut loose a bit more on Wolverine....he knows how difficult it really is to actually injure Logan). As stated, Peter practically worships Cap and he considers Matt to be a pretty good friend. I think once you take that factor out of the equation you are left with a Peter Parker that none of them will have any idea how to handle. All Peter really needs is one or two really solid hits on Cap, DD, and Hawkeye to take them out of the game...whereas they really need to pour the damage on to get passed his durability. I see this turning into Spidey vs Logan really quickly.

It's the "To the Death" angle that's causing me some issues here. Wolverine is extremely difficult to kill. I'm mostly just ignoring it in favour of a more "serious incapacitation" such as when he webbed Wolverine between the building with his fist stuck against his head....something that takes Wolverine out of the fight in such a way that he won't be able to rejoin any time soon. I don't think the "To the Death" factor is entirely fair when you are dealing with someone that might very well be impossible to kill.

#47 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII I wasn't really addressing you specifically, just giving some thoughts in general after quickly reading the thread. I also post 99% of the time from my iPhone, which doesn't allow me to use the reply feature. All that said, when and where is this scan of Clint taking out Steve from? As I said, I've read most of Clint's recent appearances excluding Avengers Assembles (Avengers, New Avengers, Avengers Academy, Avenging Spider-Man and so forth) and I honestly don't remember him utilizing anything other than run-of-the-mill arrows recently. Even if he does carry sonics as standard gear, the last several times Peter has ran into Hobgoblin in combat Peter has had devices in play to counter his lunatic laugh, ranging from his former stealth suit to his utilization of a brand new set of ear plugs that filters out only harmful sounds. I'd argue that's standard gear for Peter these days at least as much as trick arrows are for Clint. Last thing is yes, we do disagree on the definition of bloodlust, which is simply a desire to see blood shed. This can take many forms ranging from a desire to murder someone (ie, Carnage bloodlusted) to a desire to beat someone bloody (ie, Peter after Gwen Stacy's death) but isn't limited in scope inherently by its definition to indicate someone being berserk or out of his or her mind or illogical or anything of that sort.

#48 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@spidey 15:

I'm not saying he'd 'ignore' Hawkeye necessarily. I'm saying the fact he's bloodlusted coupled with the fact he would, first and foremost, have Wolverine up in his face to deal with, should leave space for Hawkeye to get the shot he needs.

A bloodlusted Spidey is most certainly not stupid, but in rage he would not be able to resist taking it to Logan when Wolverine is coming at him claws out. That, and I'm not sure Wolverine would give him the choice. It should at the least buy Hawkeye the second he needs really.

Point is, being bloodlusted will probably make him less pensive / cautious and far more direct. That and Spider-Man has three other top tier heroes to contend with before just 'marching over' and taking out Hawkeye.

I understand your point and it's pretty good, but how i see it, is that spidey at his best, has almost reached the level of what if spidey( you know, the famous one). He has a few feats that make his spider-sense look like a future sense and not just an instinct that warns him of danger. I believe there is a possibility that even though he will be facing Logan( i do believe it's the most possible thing to happen as much as you ), his spider-sense can still let him realize what trap he'll fell for and not just by his spider-sense but by his knowledge of Hawkeye's arsenal as well.

But i have some questions. Couldn't just spidey react properly enough and jump some distances before the sonic arrow wears him down way too much or couldn't just web it to low the sonics or throw it back with his webbing? I see many possibilities that could happen to counter that attack in any case he wouldn't manage to put out Clint fast enough.

:)

#49 Posted by VeganDiet (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: Sonic Arrows are no longer a factor. He now has earplugs that block harmful sonic frequencies. He created them to counter Hobgoblin's Sonic laugh. They showed up as standard equipment in 695.

#50 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt:

Here you go;

@VeganDiet said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Sonic Arrows are no longer a factor. He now has earplugs that block harmful sonic frequencies. He created them to counter Hobgoblin's Sonic laugh. They showed up as standard equipment in 695.

Did not know that. Thanks for the heads up. Regardless, pretty sure I can dig up other area of effect goodies. If Spider-Man now has those 'ear plugs' as standard gear due to a showing, then I don't see why and / or how we have to exclude the presence of trick arrows for Clint. They have been a huge part of his repertoire leading up to his 'death' and reemergence as Ronin.

The point is, while I feel Parker takes a majority due to being bloodlusted and due to the location hugely favoring him (heck, I was the first to pronounce this), team defniitely as a great chance to score some wins.

I'd give Parker 6-7/10 majority (assuming written correctly).

In the hands of Marvel writers and their editors, Parker avoids for a time, then team stomps.

@spidey 15:

But i have some questions. Couldn't just spidey react properly enough and jump some distances before the sonic arrow wears him down way too much or couldn't just web it to low the sonics or throw it back with his webbing? I see many possibilities that could happen to counter that attack in any case he wouldn't manage to put out Clint fast enough.

Well, I guess the question of 'sonics' was addressed by Vegan above. As to other area of effect goodies, I guess it depends on feats we can dig up for Clint insofar as what arrows he's used in the past and to what extent they effect the area that surrounds. I see Wolverine keeping Parker engaged for a few and eating one for the team ... knowing he'll heal up or downright shrug off the damage from the arrow in question. Cap could use his shield to great effect as we all know as well ... ricocheting all over the place, it would serve a great distraction and tax Parker's ability to react to everything all at once despite spider-sense (in avoiding the shield, he could walk into Hawkeye's attack by necessity regardless whether he sees it coming).

Hawkeye is also a master marksman (a supernatural one really) and one wily coyote. He is well aware of Parker's spider-sense and speed. Like a good marksman, he would anticipate and adjust.