Spider-Man Battle of the Week VOTING: Scarlet Spider vs. Lizard

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k4tzm4n

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k4tzm4n  Moderator

Poll Spider-Man Battle of the Week VOTING: Scarlet Spider vs. Lizard (279 votes)

Lizard 27%
Scarlet Spider 69%
Too close to call 4%

Things are about to get savage. To continue Spider-Man month, we're placing the durable and deadly villain Lizard against the brutal anti-hero Scarlet Spider. The webhead often needs a plot device to overcome Curt Connors, so will the physically impressive Kaine be able to take-down this vicious threat or will he suffer a bloody defeat?

After these two clash, who will be the one to walk away as the winner? Will Lizard's durability, speed and relentless attacks eventually bring Kaine to his knees? Or will Scarlet Spider's commendable physicals and "do what needs to be done" mentality allow him to best Peter Parker's classic enemy? Be sure to read all of the rules before voting. Seriously, they're important and you'll look silly if you ask a question that's already answered in there. You don't want to look silly on the internet, do you? Of course not, so read all of the rules then vote and leap into the debate.

Prepare for awesome.

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (aka no prep for either).
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 15 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc.
  • Both characters have their standard gear.
  • For simplicity's sake, let's say Lizard does NOT have the mental ability that was introduced in Shed and Curt is NOT in control of Lizard's actions. Additionally, Kaine will NOT transform into The Other. Let's keep this straightforward, yeah?
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too.
  • Hey, you know what would be really cool? Treating everyone else in the debate with respect. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. Seriously, this is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining. Just saying.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to be selected as the Viner Argument of the Week. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the staff.
  • A Viner Argument for both characters (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future "Spider-Man Battle of the Week" suggestions in the comments below or via Twitter! Want to continue celebrating Spidey? Well, he'll be the topic of tomorrow's 'Question of the Week' and we encourage you to make Spider-Man threads in the forums!

 • 
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Wolverine008

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@laflux said:

@shawnbaby said:

@wolverine08: Hey..Wolverine gets body paint girls too...they're just...you know...not as good. Which is fitting.

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Eh, I'd happily bang either of them.......

Of course you would......

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#152  Edited By jashro44

@shenkuei said:

@bloodynights said:

I've got a question for the Viners who are more knowledgeable about The Lizard, and about this fight in general. Can the Lizard survive attacks like this?

Let's say if Kaine was to aim for the brain. Also is The Other version of Kaine allowed to enter this fight, or is that form considered a different character?

Having his jaw torn off would probably just make him angry.

If Kaine were to hit him in the brain it would be a different story though. Lizard survived having his neck snapped with no issues but it put him out of commission for a minute or two. If Kaine can get in a "head shot" so to speak Lizard would likely survive, but he would be incapacitated long enough to count as a KO.

That's probably the best strategy Kaine has available to him here, although it's by no means guaranteed to work. Kaine's "Other" should not be considered a factor here, according to the original post.

Its worth noting Lizard was stabbed in the brain recently with something which was meant to cure him and all though it took the fight out of him Peter still had to use all his webbing to restrain him.

I question how effective a stab to the brain would be with current lizard. Its possible that the reason the fight was taken out of him was because the cure got rid of the lizard personality and turned him into Connors who didn't want to fight back....

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Wyldsong

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#153  Edited By Wyldsong

@jashro44 said:

@shenkuei said:

@bloodynights said:

I've got a question for the Viners who are more knowledgeable about The Lizard, and about this fight in general. Can the Lizard survive attacks like this?

Let's say if Kaine was to aim for the brain. Also is The Other version of Kaine allowed to enter this fight, or is that form considered a different character?

Having his jaw torn off would probably just make him angry.

If Kaine were to hit him in the brain it would be a different story though. Lizard survived having his neck snapped with no issues but it put him out of commission for a minute or two. If Kaine can get in a "head shot" so to speak Lizard would likely survive, but he would be incapacitated long enough to count as a KO.

That's probably the best strategy Kaine has available to him here, although it's by no means guaranteed to work. Kaine's "Other" should not be considered a factor here, according to the original post.

Its worth noting Lizard was stabbed in the brain recently with something which was meant to cure him and all though it took the fight out of him Peter still had to use all his webbing to restrain him.

I question how effective a stab to the brain would be with current lizard. Its possible that the reason the fight was taken out of him was because the cure got rid of the lizard personality and turned him into Connors who didn't want to fight back....

I'll be honest, in that I don't think the brain stab would do much, unless it were done repeatedly, over and over, making mush of his brain pan. Lizard's healing factor is such that it allowed him to come back from a severing of the spinal column, and even after the brain stab, the Lizard was still able to talk (he told Spidey that the cure didn't work). All it did besides deliver the cure, was maybe slow him down some, giving Spidey enough time to web him up. It's hard to say whether it was the cure (which did work, Connor's was lying in that scene), or the actual stab that took the fight out of him...but considering he was still capable of speech and his healing factor, I'd opt for the cure taking the fight out of him.

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k4tzm4n

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#154 k4tzm4n  Moderator

Can't help but laugh when someone posts something really detailed and the very next post is literally just something like "nah, the other person wins."

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#156 owie  Moderator

I spent last night reading over all my Lizard appearances, which turns out to be quite a few. Over and over again, Lizard is said to be faster and stronger than Peter. Over and over Lizard pretty much has Pete on the ropes until Pete wins by plot. Or, Lizard wins, like in the 2011 X-men arc. To quote Pete, when he next sees him in Amazing 688: "Last time we fought, he broke me. And I just let him go. I lay there beaten while he and all of his followers marched into the sewers after him...I couldn't stand. Could barely breathe." Whereupon Spidey fights Lizard again and only wins due to the intervention of Morpheus and the fact that they both inject Lizard with a serum via harpoon. To be clear, Lizard was taking them both on easily, being stabbed multiple times, until they won by prep.

Lizard has been shot and gotten right back up; stabbed massively through the chest and gotten back up; stabbed in the brain and eventually healed.

It sounds sort of silly but I think his tail is his key to winning. He uses it constantly as a whip and a tentacle to grab with. He catches Spidey unawares with it all the time and does serious damage with it--and Spidey has a Spidey sense to avoid such things. It just gives him more options for attacking Kaine than Kaine has to attack with in return.

Also, Lizard has ripped Spidey's webs on multiple occasions, so that's not a useful option for Kaine.

No Caption Provided

I've got a question for the Viners who are more knowledgeable about The Lizard, and about this fight in general. Can the Lizard survive attacks like this?

Let's say if Kaine was to aim for the brain. Also is The Other version of Kaine allowed to enter this fight, or is that form considered a different character?

It's questionable how well he'd survive, but he has at least a chance. Another question is, how well would Kaine survive the same injury?

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Sherlock

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#157  Edited By Sherlock

I'm amazed that Lizard is losing this badly in the polls. I Demand a Recount!!!!!!

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TDK_1997

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I'll back up Curt Connors here. Don't get me wrong this is a pretty close battle and all but I am seeing Lizard winning here. His gread damage soak and abilities post Shed give him a big advantage here since his speed would definitely be in use since he managed to blitz Peter left and right. And the only reason Peter was dodging and eventually managed to lay a hit on Connors was because of his Spider Sense and Way of the Spider training, which Kaine doesn't have and will have a lot of hard time here. He likes to keep it close and to fight in close range and that is just yet another reason why he would lose to Connors.

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#159  Edited By Wyldsong

This is off topic, but I was reviewing some Scarlet Spider issues, and this one scene had me laughing my arse off, since living near and working in Houston, I can vouch for the fact that this beyond true:

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dondave

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#160  Edited By dondave

Lol

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#161  Edited By Wyldsong

Alright...regardless of my actual vote, I just had a few thoughts to drop on the flip side of the coin:

If I were to argue a win for Kaine...just to play a little devil's advocate, we first need to look at his stats. Kaine is stronger than Spidey, faster than Spidey, and is far more ruthless than Spidey. While Spidey may not have the luxury of holding back when fighting the Lizard, it still doesn't mean that he is jumping into lethal tactics. It just means he has to use his full strength for the Lizard to even feel it. With his stingers, Kaine has the means to damage the Lizard, and a neck snap from an other enhanced Spidey at least dropped the Lizard temporarily once upon a time. As for the Spidey brain stab...it could be argued that the Lizard was subdued due to the cure, but on the other side of the argument, we don't have a whole lot of proof stating that it wasn't the piercing of the brain itself that subdued the Lizard.

While it may be argued that Kaine doesn't use his webbing as tactically and as often as Pete, there are instances of its use when he is on the ropes or even facing a difficult foe. For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander. I can find enough instances of him using webbing tactically in combat to make a decent argument of him being more than just a base brawler, and having the presence of mind to use it when he needs it.

His damage soak seems to be about equivalent to Pete, as he can take a ton of punishment (blunt, slashing, piercing, etc) and can keep on going without missing a step. The stealth suit, while not used in every battle, has been used enough in combat for consideration as well. He has feats of reacting to speedsters (fast enough to cut one's leg off and he avoided their attack), a teleporter, and so on, and attacks he wasn't aware of. He has enough bullet and energy attack dodging feats to be considered moderately impressive by Spidey standards, so he definitely has the agility angle covered...not that the Lizard will be using bullets or energy attacks...but he is comparable to Spidey stat wise in that arena.

With all of this in mind, it could be arguable for Kaine taking a very slim majority. He has the means to hurt the Lizard with his stingers, it is not out of the realm of feasibility that he could use his stealth suit in combat for an advantage, and he has used webbing while brawling in hand to hand, which would be harder to dodge up close and personal. When you factor in that the Lizard could be dropped or slowed by a neck snap or brain piercing, and the fact that it is within Kaine's means and morals to do both (and that Kaine is far more brutal in combat than Spidey), I don't see it being out of the realm of feasibility for Kaine to pull a win.

Anyhow, thus endeth my devil's advocate rant.

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Spider nut huggers giving Kaine their votes as expected.

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Spider nut huggers giving Kaine their votes as expected.

You argued for Kaine...who is hugging whose nuts?

=P

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@wyldsong:

For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander.

The problem is, and Jash pointed this out earlier is that all of Kaine's best accuracy feats via webbing come with people that aren't really in the same league as Lizard speed. I remember Salamander, and I don't believe that he ever did anything that would let him compete with Lizard.(Blitzing Spider-Man and only got touched due to distractions) It's not really so much that Kaine doesn't use his webbing(He doesn't but he's fairly smart enough to when to), but his proficiency with the web incap isn't solid enough to solidify it being much help against some of Lizard's caliber.

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@wyldsong said:

@wolverine08 said:

Spider nut huggers giving Kaine their votes as expected.

You argued for Kaine...who is hugging whose nuts?

=P

Eh, was feeling kind to you Spider people. Don't expect that often!

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dondave

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I doubt Web Incap would work, Lizard ripped through Peter webbing during No Turning Back.

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Wyldsong

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#167  Edited By Wyldsong

@wolverine08 said:

@wyldsong:

For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander.

The problem is, and Jash pointed this out earlier is that all of Kaine's best accuracy feats via webbing come with people that aren't really in the same league as Lizard speed. I remember Salamander, and I don't believe that he ever did anything that would let him compete with Lizard.(Blitzing Spider-Man and only got touched due to distractions) It's not really so much that Kaine doesn't use his webbing(He doesn't but he's fairly smart enough to when to), but his proficiency with the web incap isn't solid enough to solidify it being much help against some of Lizard's caliber.

And while I agree somewhat, on the flip side, the idea here is that Kaine has feats of using while brawling in a very close range. At the range he used on Salamander and a few others, that was nearly face to face, and the webbing is fast enough that it won't be likely the Lizard will dodge it at that close of a range, especially if he is busy trying to eat Kaine's face. He has used it enough in combat and in close range, that it is worth consideration.

In the end, my vote is still solidly with the Lizard, but I wanted to throw out a flip side of the coin argument. It took some thought and review, but I can see where Kaine could feasibly win.

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Scarlet Spider stomps

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Wolverine008

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K4tz give me a Wolverine battle of the week so I can hug Logan's nuts!(Not that I don't already do)

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@dondave said:

I doubt Web Incap would work, Lizard ripped through Peter webbing during No Turning Back.

But enough of it held him after Spidey pierced his brain. It would be enough to at least slow the Lizard.

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#173  Edited By Wyldsong

@dondave said:

@wyldsong Was he even conscious?

Yup, he even told Spidey that the cure didn't work, though the brain pierce did take some of the fight out of him (it could be argued it was the cure that did it, but it is never spelled out), and then later we see they got him to lock up, but by that point, the cure had taken effect. I think that Kaine's webs could be of some use, though a web incap right off the bat isn't likely to happen or be effective, as I doubt he would get enough webbing on the Lizard to be effective while the Lizard is fully active and fighting. Maybe if Lizard could be subdued somewhat, then enough webbing could hold him.

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Fallschirmjager

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@wyldsong: That makes it so much funnier.

God I miss Scarlet Spider.

WHY MARVEL!?!?!!?!? WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????

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@fallschirmjager: It was an awesome series, I just wish I could make myself get interested enough in the New Warriors to keep up with Kaine...

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@wyldsong said:

@fallschirmjager: It was an awesome series, I just wish I could make myself get interested enough in the New Warriors to keep up with Kaine...

Yeah. I am forcing myself.

Ain't gonna lie though, I don't care an ounce about anything other than Kaine and Aracely in the book.

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@dondave said:

@supremehyperion

Scarlet Spider stomps

Doubtful

I agree. If he did pull a win, it would be a narrow, by the skin of his teeth victory.

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@wyldsong said:

@fallschirmjager: It was an awesome series, I just wish I could make myself get interested enough in the New Warriors to keep up with Kaine...

Yeah. I am forcing myself.

Ain't gonna lie though, I don't care an ounce about anything other than Kaine and Aracely in the book.

I need to collect the series, and then just cut out everything that doesn't have to do with Kaine and Aracely, maybe then I'd enjoy it more. The rest of the cast, I could care less about.

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Fallschirmjager

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Voted too close to call, simply cos I refuse to vote against Kaine.

Pretty surprised he is stomping the poll though lol. Well maybe not...popular characters tend to win these matches.

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TDK_1997

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#180  Edited By TDK_1997

@wyldsong said:

Alright...regardless of my actual vote, I just had a few thoughts to drop on the flip side of the coin:

If I were to argue a win for Kaine...just to play a little devil's advocate, we first need to look at his stats. Kaine is stronger than Spidey, faster than Spidey, and is far more ruthless than Spidey. While Spidey may not have the luxury of holding back when fighting the Lizard, it still doesn't mean that he is jumping into lethal tactics. It just means he has to use his full strength for the Lizard to even feel it. With his stingers, Kaine has the means to damage the Lizard, and a neck snap from an other enhanced Spidey at least dropped the Lizard temporarily once upon a time. As for the Spidey brain stab...it could be argued that the Lizard was subdued due to the cure, but on the other side of the argument, we don't have a whole lot of proof stating that it wasn't the piercing of the brain itself that subdued the Lizard.

While it may be argued that Kaine doesn't use his webbing as tactically and as often as Pete, there are instances of its use when he is on the ropes or even facing a difficult foe. For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander. I can find enough instances of him using webbing tactically in combat to make a decent argument of him being more than just a base brawler, and having the presence of mind to use it when he needs it.

His damage soak seems to be about equivalent to Pete, as he can take a ton of punishment (blunt, slashing, piercing, etc) and can keep on going without missing a step. The stealth suit, while not used in every battle, has been used enough in combat for consideration as well. He has feats of reacting to speedsters (fast enough to cut one's leg off and he avoided their attack), a teleporter, and so on, and attacks he wasn't aware of. He has enough bullet and energy attack dodging feats to be considered moderately impressive by Spidey standards, so he definitely has the agility angle covered...not that the Lizard will be using bullets or energy attacks...but he is comparable to Spidey stat wise in that arena.

With all of this in mind, it could be arguable for Kaine taking a very slim majority. He has the means to hurt the Lizard with his stingers, it is not out of the realm of feasibility that he could use his stealth suit in combat for an advantage, and he has used webbing while brawling in hand to hand, which would be harder to dodge up close and personal. When you factor in that the Lizard could be dropped or slowed by a neck snap, or brain piercing, and the fact that it is within Kaine's means and morals to do both, I don't see it being out of the realm of feasibility for Kaine to pull a win.

Anyhow, thus endeth my devil's advocate rant.

As much this is true it is also untrue at the same time. All of the instances you mentioned in which Kaine has used webbing or fighting in long range have been fights with people that show him and us from the start that might be a trouble to fight at close range while Lizard isn't that. Kaine might think that he might be able to take him down in close range doing the savage things he has always done but that would be his biggest mistake and whenever he decides to use webbing or something else that will help him win it may be just too late for him. As much as his damage soak is pretty high I don't think that he can continue much against a stronger,faster and probably smarter and deadlier opponent who has a couple of things up in his sleeve that can finish off Kaine pretty fast.

Also Kaine hasn't used his stingers much and I doubt the fact that he will start using them now, I am not saying it is impossible but it is really not that possible either. And yet again, if he does manage or decide to use them I don't think they will be that much of a help to him since the damage soak and the healing factor of Connors are amazing and he will just keep going and will not kept down for long.

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#181  Edited By TDK_1997

@wyldsong said:

Alright...regardless of my actual vote, I just had a few thoughts to drop on the flip side of the coin:

If I were to argue a win for Kaine...just to play a little devil's advocate, we first need to look at his stats. Kaine is stronger than Spidey, faster than Spidey, and is far more ruthless than Spidey. While Spidey may not have the luxury of holding back when fighting the Lizard, it still doesn't mean that he is jumping into lethal tactics. It just means he has to use his full strength for the Lizard to even feel it. With his stingers, Kaine has the means to damage the Lizard, and a neck snap from an other enhanced Spidey at least dropped the Lizard temporarily once upon a time. As for the Spidey brain stab...it could be argued that the Lizard was subdued due to the cure, but on the other side of the argument, we don't have a whole lot of proof stating that it wasn't the piercing of the brain itself that subdued the Lizard.

While it may be argued that Kaine doesn't use his webbing as tactically and as often as Pete, there are instances of its use when he is on the ropes or even facing a difficult foe. For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander. I can find enough instances of him using webbing tactically in combat to make a decent argument of him being more than just a base brawler, and having the presence of mind to use it when he needs it.

His damage soak seems to be about equivalent to Pete, as he can take a ton of punishment (blunt, slashing, piercing, etc) and can keep on going without missing a step. The stealth suit, while not used in every battle, has been used enough in combat for consideration as well. He has feats of reacting to speedsters (fast enough to cut one's leg off and he avoided their attack), a teleporter, and so on, and attacks he wasn't aware of. He has enough bullet and energy attack dodging feats to be considered moderately impressive by Spidey standards, so he definitely has the agility angle covered...not that the Lizard will be using bullets or energy attacks...but he is comparable to Spidey stat wise in that arena.

With all of this in mind, it could be arguable for Kaine taking a very slim majority. He has the means to hurt the Lizard with his stingers, it is not out of the realm of feasibility that he could use his stealth suit in combat for an advantage, and he has used webbing while brawling in hand to hand, which would be harder to dodge up close and personal. When you factor in that the Lizard could be dropped or slowed by a neck snap or brain piercing, and the fact that it is within Kaine's means and morals to do both (and that Kaine is far more brutal in combat than Spidey), I don't see it being out of the realm of feasibility for Kaine to pull a win.

Anyhow, thus endeth my devil's advocate rant.

As much this is true it is also untrue at the same time. All of the instances you mentioned in which Kaine has used webbing or fighting in long range have been fights with people that show him and us from the start that might be a trouble to fight at close range while Lizard isn't that. Kaine might think that he might be able to take him down in close range doing the savage things he has always done but that would be his biggest mistake and whenever he decides to use webbing or something else that will help him win it may be just too late for him. As much as his damage soak is pretty high I don't think that he can continue much against a stronger,faster and probably smarter and deadlier opponent who has a couple of things up in his sleeve that can finish off Kaine pretty fast.

Also Kaine hasn't used his stingers much and I doubt the fact that he will start using them now, I am not saying it is impossible but it is really not that possible either. And yet again, if he does manage or decide to use them I don't think they will be that much of a help to him since the damage soak and the healing factor of Connors are amazing and he will just keep going and will not kept down for long.

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#182  Edited By jashro44

@wyldsong said:

I'll be honest, in that I don't think the brain stab would do much, unless it were done repeatedly, over and over, making mush of his brain pan. Lizard's healing factor is such that it allowed him to come back from a severing of the spinal column, and even after the brain stab, the Lizard was still able to talk (he told Spidey that the cure didn't work). All it did besides deliver the cure, was maybe slow him down some, giving Spidey enough time to web him up. It's hard to say whether it was the cure (which did work, Connor's was lying in that scene), or the actual stab that took the fight out of him...but considering he was still capable of speech and his healing factor, I'd opt for the cure taking the fight out of him.

Those are my thoughts.

@dondave said:

@wyldsong Was he even conscious?

Yea all though it is possible that Connors didn't want to fight back.

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@tdk_1997 said:

As much this is true it is also untrue at the same time. All of the instances you mentioned in which Kaine has used webbing or fighting in long range have been fights with people that show him and us from the start that might be a trouble to fight at close range while Lizard isn't that. Kaine might think that he might be able to take him down in close range doing the savage things he has always done but that would be his biggest mistake and whenever he decides to use webbing or something else that will help him win it may be just too late for him. As much as his damage soak is pretty high I don't think that he can continue much against a stronger,faster and probably smarter and deadlier opponent who has a couple of things up in his sleeve that can finish off Kaine pretty fast.

Also Kaine hasn't used his stingers much and I doubt the fact that he will start using them now, I am not saying it is impossible but it is really not that possible either. And yet again, if he does manage or decide to use them I don't think they will be that much of a help to him since the damage soak and the healing factor of Connors are amazing and he will just keep going and will not kept down for long.

I disagree, I think with the Lizard, Kaine will know very early on that he will have trouble. As for the stingers, he has used them plenty of times, as I can find plenty of instances where he does use them in combat, and against an opponent such as the Lizard, I see him using them early and often. A severed spine or pierced brain, while a temporary slow down, would be enough for Kaine to capitalize on.

Then again, that was only a devil's advocate argument to bring about an opposing point of view. I do believe and did vote for the Lizard winning, I just see a path to victory for Kaine in there as well.

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#184  Edited By Wyldsong

@jashro44 said:

@wyldsong said:

I'll be honest, in that I don't think the brain stab would do much, unless it were done repeatedly, over and over, making mush of his brain pan. Lizard's healing factor is such that it allowed him to come back from a severing of the spinal column, and even after the brain stab, the Lizard was still able to talk (he told Spidey that the cure didn't work). All it did besides deliver the cure, was maybe slow him down some, giving Spidey enough time to web him up. It's hard to say whether it was the cure (which did work, Connor's was lying in that scene), or the actual stab that took the fight out of him...but considering he was still capable of speech and his healing factor, I'd opt for the cure taking the fight out of him.

Those are my thoughts.

Just don't read my devil's advocate argument=)

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#185  Edited By Wolverine008

I'm kind of tentative as of now towards how this will all play out, but I feel Kaine can win this depending on how he goes about the options laying before him. Lizard brings the damage soak edge via his absolutely ridiculous healing factor which would give him a pretty big edge in a close quarters fight, and would help him take any damage Kaine can throw out via his stingers except for decapitation or dismemberment. Considering that this is post Shed Lizard, the speed is also going to be a problem as well. The guy was blitzing Spider-Man, and while Kaine is indeed physically faster than Peter, the speed difference between the two is ultimately fairly negligible, and the only thing that saved Peter from Connor's speed was his prodigious use of his Spider Sense and Way of the Spider martial style. Two things that unfortunately, Kaine does not have up his sleeves. Kaine on the other hand boasts the main advantage of being more versatile overall. He's rocking comparable strength that while superior to Spider-Man's most likely isn't as good as Lizard's, and he doesn't have to engage Lizard solely in close range combat. While he isn't as good with web incap as someone like a Spider-Man per say(Whom has his Spider Sense guiding his webbing), he's web incapped a werewolf sporting physicals almost equal to his, has organic webbing(Which in large amounts has held down Iron Man), and he doesn't completely shun the webbing in combat even if it isn't his primary option. The webbing gives him the edge of being able to bang inside and outside with Lizard. And while he won't beat Lizard solely close quarters, he can hold his own there. He has his stingers which can cause severe damage to Lizard if he goes for the right areas, and his Other amped physicals will help him hang in there better. It's all about him just using his brain here.

As of now, I'd say that if Kaine goes primarily close quarters, he'll lose. If he mixes and matches close/ranged combat, he'll pull a majority after a tough fight.

Lizard for the majority.

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@wyldsong said:

@tdk_1997 said:

As much this is true it is also untrue at the same time. All of the instances you mentioned in which Kaine has used webbing or fighting in long range have been fights with people that show him and us from the start that might be a trouble to fight at close range while Lizard isn't that. Kaine might think that he might be able to take him down in close range doing the savage things he has always done but that would be his biggest mistake and whenever he decides to use webbing or something else that will help him win it may be just too late for him. As much as his damage soak is pretty high I don't think that he can continue much against a stronger,faster and probably smarter and deadlier opponent who has a couple of things up in his sleeve that can finish off Kaine pretty fast.

Also Kaine hasn't used his stingers much and I doubt the fact that he will start using them now, I am not saying it is impossible but it is really not that possible either. And yet again, if he does manage or decide to use them I don't think they will be that much of a help to him since the damage soak and the healing factor of Connors are amazing and he will just keep going and will not kept down for long.

I disagree, I think with the Lizard, Kaine will know very early on that he will have trouble. As for the stingers, he has used them plenty of times, as I can find plenty of instances where he does use them in combat, and against an opponent such as the Lizard, I see him using them early and often. A severed spine or pierced brain, while a temporary slow down, would be enough for Kaine to capitalize on.

Then again, that was only a devil's advocate argument to bring about an opposing point of view. I do believe and did vote for the Lizard winning, I just see a path to victory for Kaine in there as well.

He might know that he will have trouble with the Lizard but he still doesn't know what exactly he can expect from him and that will be a big disadvantage. The speed and ferocity of the Lizard will be something that will come in handy in this battle and it will secure Connors the win. The stingers and the webbing has been used against opponents that are not as fast or strong as the Lizard and he has more than once handled the webbing of Peter and his attacks and everything he has thrown at him. And this is against Peter who is by far the better opponent because he simply fights smarter than Kaine and uses his brains and some kinds of tactitcs a lot more. While Kaine just fights like a savage just like Wolverine who in some times fights like a smart person but that ain't that much as well.

I know what you were doing, I was just trying to say that even under these kinds of conditions Kaine would lose again.

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@tdk_1997 said:

.

He might know that he will have trouble with the Lizard but he still doesn't know what exactly he can expect from him and that will be a big disadvantage. The speed and ferocity of the Lizard will be something that will come in handy in this battle and it will secure Connors the win. The stingers and the webbing has been used against opponents that are not as fast or strong as the Lizard and he has more than once handled the webbing of Peter and his attacks and everything he has thrown at him. And this is against Peter who is by far the better opponent because he simply fights smarter than Kaine and uses his brains and some kinds of tactitcs a lot more. While Kaine just fights like a savage just like Wolverine who in some times fights like a smart person but that ain't that much as well.

I know what you were doing, I was just trying to say that even under these kinds of conditions Kaine would lose again.

Needless to say, I still don't agree, but we aren't always going to agree, are we?

=)

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@jashro44 said:

@shenkuei said:

@bloodynights said:

I've got a question for the Viners who are more knowledgeable about The Lizard, and about this fight in general. Can the Lizard survive attacks like this?

Let's say if Kaine was to aim for the brain. Also is The Other version of Kaine allowed to enter this fight, or is that form considered a different character?

Having his jaw torn off would probably just make him angry.

If Kaine were to hit him in the brain it would be a different story though. Lizard survived having his neck snapped with no issues but it put him out of commission for a minute or two. If Kaine can get in a "head shot" so to speak Lizard would likely survive, but he would be incapacitated long enough to count as a KO.

That's probably the best strategy Kaine has available to him here, although it's by no means guaranteed to work. Kaine's "Other" should not be considered a factor here, according to the original post.

Its worth noting Lizard was stabbed in the brain recently with something which was meant to cure him and all though it took the fight out of him Peter still had to use all his webbing to restrain him.

I question how effective a stab to the brain would be with current lizard. Its possible that the reason the fight was taken out of him was because the cure got rid of the lizard personality and turned him into Connors who didn't want to fight back....

Good point I had forgotten about that scene. But that was with a needle right? Kaine's stringers would have to do more damage than that.

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#189  Edited By jashro44

@shenkuei: Yea I believe it was with a needle. I would have to read the issue again to be sure.

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#190  Edited By ShenKuei

I think some aren't giving Kaine enough credit. He comes across as a brute at times but he's actually quite intelligent (as intelligent as Peter, in theory). Look at what he did during the Clone Saga, playing every side against each other. He's more than just a mindless brawler. I also don't think he'd have a problem hitting Lizard with webs. He may not be able to tag him with a single strand but he can fire in a wide enough spray to probably tag him if he really needed to. Some scans to show how fast he spins webbing:

No Caption Provided

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That being said, Lizard is still strong enough to break free so it's not a huge advantage. I do still think Lizard edges this out, although it would be a close fight.

About the neck-snapping thing - Lizard actually kind of broke it hismelf when he jumped and caught his neck on some chains Spidey threw at him. Also, this was before the Lizard's current upgrades so his healing factor may have improved since then.

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#191  Edited By TDK_1997

@wyldsong said:

@tdk_1997 said:

.

He might know that he will have trouble with the Lizard but he still doesn't know what exactly he can expect from him and that will be a big disadvantage. The speed and ferocity of the Lizard will be something that will come in handy in this battle and it will secure Connors the win. The stingers and the webbing has been used against opponents that are not as fast or strong as the Lizard and he has more than once handled the webbing of Peter and his attacks and everything he has thrown at him. And this is against Peter who is by far the better opponent because he simply fights smarter than Kaine and uses his brains and some kinds of tactitcs a lot more. While Kaine just fights like a savage just like Wolverine who in some times fights like a smart person but that ain't that much as well.

I know what you were doing, I was just trying to say that even under these kinds of conditions Kaine would lose again.

Needless to say, I still don't agree, but we aren't always going to agree, are we?

=)

There is always some small disagreement between people. That's life!

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#192  Edited By ShadowPro

this should be aesy, kaine

he is an upgraded spider-man, he figts to kill, and he can turn invisible with hos suit, I see some have forgot about that

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This fight is gonna be...messy.

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Scarlet Spider stomps

Yeah,most definitely not a stomp but okay.

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#195  Edited By jashro44

@shadowpro said:

this should be aesy, kaine

he is an upgraded spider-man, he figts to kill, and he can turn invisible with hos suit, I see some have forgot about that

He's not an upgrades spider-man. He's faster and stronger however he lacks spider-sense which is actually a very useful ability. There are differences between Kaine and Peter. He never uses his invisibility much in combat (he's used it like twice and once was only to get the drop on someone, the other time was to surprise the assassins guild and even then he turned visible immediately after. Him being willing to kill isn't an advantage since Lizard Lizard is also willing to do the same.

No one has forgotten anything about Kaine. And this isn't an easy win for kaine at all.

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@wolverine08 said:

I'm kind of tentative as of now towards how this will all play out, but I feel Kaine can win this depending on how he goes about the options laying before him. Lizard brings the damage soak edge via his absolutely ridiculous healing factor which would give him a pretty big edge in a close quarters fight, and would help him take any damage Kaine can throw out via his stingers except for decapitation or dismemberment. Considering that this is post Shed Lizard, the speed is also going to be a problem as well. The guy was blitzing Spider-Man, and while Kaine is indeed physically faster than Peter, the speed difference between the two is ultimately fairly negligible, and the only thing that saved Peter from Connor's speed was his prodigious use of his Spider Sense and Way of the Spider martial style. Two things that unfortunately, Kaine does not have up his sleeves. Kaine on the other hand boasts the main advantage of being more versatile overall. He's rocking comparable strength that while superior to Spider-Man's most likely isn't as good as Lizard's, and he doesn't have to engage Lizard solely in close range combat. While he isn't as good with web incap as someone like a Spider-Man per say(Whom has his Spider Sense guiding his webbing), he's web incapped a werewolf sporting physicals almost equal to his, has organic webbing(Which in large amounts has held down Iron Man), and he doesn't completely shun the webbing in combat even if it isn't his primary option. The webbing gives him the edge of being able to bang inside and outside with Lizard. And while he won't beat Lizard solely close quarters, he can hold his own there. He has his stingers which can cause severe damage to Lizard if he goes for the right areas, and his Other amped physicals will help him hang in there better. It's all about him just using his brain here.

As of now, I'd say that if Kaine goes primarily close quarters, he'll lose. If he mixes and matches close/ranged combat, he'll pull a majority after a tough fight.

Lizard for the majority.

So you've taken to arguing with yourself now? Is there truly no one else on Comicvine worthy of your debating prowess except your past self? :P

Also how did you get to over 30,000 posts whilst I was offline? Are you glued to your chair or something?

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#197  Edited By owie  Moderator

I can't believe Kaine is winning the poll to this degree. There seems to be a big difference between the level of arguments for the Lizard and the votes he's getting, so let's try again:

To summarize: At best, Kaine is on par with Lizard when it comes to strength and speed, and may well be below him. At best, Kaine is as likely to go for the immediate kill as Lizard, and is probably less likely. Kaine and Lizard both have sharp stabby things, but while Kaine has one on each wrist, Lizard has claws to match Kaine's, plus a mouth full of sharp teeth that could easily bite through any of Kaine's extremities. Lizard also has a long tail which he regularly uses as a lash to great effect while fighting Spider-man, attacking from a medium distance; he hits Spidey with it all the time, and since Kaine is missing a spider-sense, he's going to do it to Kaine even more often. He can also use his tail as a coil to grab and imprison, as he successfully did to Pete in X-men 10 (2011). So Kaine can only attack with his four limbs, while Lizard can attack with all four limbs, plus his mouth and tail; Lizard has more options for simultaneous attacks. Finally while Kaine has a degree of enhanced durability along the lines of Peter's, or a little better, Lizard is not only durable in general, he has an excellent healing factor that will certainly allow him to soak up damage far more efficiently that Kaine, so if all they do is trade blows, Lizard will certainly be the last one standing. And again since Lizard has a wider range of lethal attacks, I don't think the trading of blows will be even. Lizard should hit Kaine more than Kaine hits him, and Lizard will definitely shrug off the hits he takes more easily/quickly than Kaine will.

On Kaine's side, Kaine has a suit to turn invisible but apparently doesn't use it often, and has webbing. But webbing is not really going to work for Kaine unless his organic webbing is significantly different from Peter's. Lizard has ripped Spidey's webbing several times, including multiple times in his first appearance, in which he was described as ripping it like it was paper. So I can't see it as being a big factor here.

Lizard regularly beats down on Spidey; to my knowledge Peter has never beaten Lizard in a straight-up pure H2H match. Kaine could certainly take a few wins here, no doubt--but I don't see any path for him to take a majority.

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Basically what @wyldsong: @jashro44: @owie: makes the most sense in the outcome of this fight IMO. Lizard has practically every advantage but versatility. He's stronger than Kaine, faster, has better durability and damage soaking, a healing factor to counter Kaine's brutality and claws and a tail to make Kaine's close quarters combat style more difficult to achieve. Although Kaine will make Lizard work for it, Lizard should take a clean majority.

Also why are there Spider-Man themed articles done by Gregg? Is this a new feature I'm not aware of from my 3 week CV break?

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@lvenger said:

Basically what @wyldsong: @jashro44: @owie: makes the most sense in the outcome of this fight IMO. Lizard has practically every advantage but versatility. He's stronger than Kaine, faster, has better durability and damage soaking, a healing factor to counter Kaine's brutality and claws and a tail to make Kaine's close quarters combat style more difficult to achieve. Although Kaine will make Lizard work for it, Lizard should take a clean majority.

Also why are there Spider-Man themed articles done by Gregg? Is this a new feature I'm not aware of from my 3 week CV break?

Spider nut huggers fans voted Peter into a month long fest of articles themed around him. He beat out Batman, Wolverine, Superman, and Wonder Woman.

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@lvenger said:

Basically what @wyldsong: @jashro44: @owie: makes the most sense in the outcome of this fight IMO. Lizard has practically every advantage but versatility. He's stronger than Kaine, faster, has better durability and damage soaking, a healing factor to counter Kaine's brutality and claws and a tail to make Kaine's close quarters combat style more difficult to achieve. Although Kaine will make Lizard work for it, Lizard should take a clean majority.

Also why are there Spider-Man themed articles done by Gregg? Is this a new feature I'm not aware of from my 3 week CV break?

Spider nut huggers fans voted Peter into a month long fest of articles themed around him. He beat out Batman, Wolverine, Superman, and Wonder Woman.

Oh so this is a new feature then? Makes sense. And damn, Superman missed out on a month long feature! Why don't people vote for him??!!