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Posted by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) 2 months, 16 days ago

Poll: Spider-Man Battle of the Week VOTING: Scarlet Spider vs. Lizard (267 votes)

Lizard 24%
Scarlet Spider 72%
Too close to call 4%

Things are about to get savage. To continue Spider-Man month, we're placing the durable and deadly villain Lizard against the brutal anti-hero Scarlet Spider. The webhead often needs a plot device to overcome Curt Connors, so will the physically impressive Kaine be able to take-down this vicious threat or will he suffer a bloody defeat?

After these two clash, who will be the one to walk away as the winner? Will Lizard's durability, speed and relentless attacks eventually bring Kaine to his knees? Or will Scarlet Spider's commendable physicals and "do what needs to be done" mentality allow him to best Peter Parker's classic enemy? Be sure to read all of the rules before voting. Seriously, they're important and you'll look silly if you ask a question that's already answered in there. You don't want to look silly on the internet, do you? Of course not, so read all of the rules then vote and leap into the debate.

Prepare for awesome.

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (aka no prep for either).
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 15 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc.
  • Both characters have their standard gear.
  • For simplicity's sake, let's say Lizard does NOT have the mental ability that was introduced in Shed and Curt is NOT in control of Lizard's actions. Additionally, Kaine will NOT transform into The Other. Let's keep this straightforward, yeah?
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too.
  • Hey, you know what would be really cool? Treating everyone else in the debate with respect. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. Seriously, this is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining. Just saying.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to be selected as the Viner Argument of the Week. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the staff.
  • A Viner Argument for both characters (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future "Spider-Man Battle of the Week" suggestions in the comments below or via Twitter! Want to continue celebrating Spidey? Well, he'll be the topic of tomorrow's 'Question of the Week' and we encourage you to make Spider-Man threads in the forums!

#1 Posted by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio

This seems like a pretty close fight.

#2 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (32823 posts) - - Show Bio

Does The Lizard actually still have that ability he used in Shed? (I know he can't use it here)

#3 Posted by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

Lizard doesn't use blunt force though. He's bringing stabbing damage to the table via his claws, and while Kaine is the more versatile combatant overall, he tends to limit himself to using his stingers in melee range. He has CIS of sorts.

#5 Edited by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: True, true. Still, I figure unless Lizard takes out something vital Kaine can fight through it. Actually.. the more I think about it, Lizard does have more of the important advantages.

#6 Posted by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

Lizard doesn't use blunt force though. He's bringing stabbing damage to the table via his claws, and while Kaine is the more versatile combatant overall, he tends to limit himself to using his stingers in melee range. He has CIS of sorts.

To be fair, he can dish out blunt force via his tail. But yeah, stabbing/slashing via claws and even teeth are bound to happen.

Staff
#7 Edited by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm kind of tentative as of now towards how this will all play out, but I feel Kaine can win this depending on how he goes about the options laying before him. Lizard brings the damage soak edge via his absolutely ridiculous healing factor which would give him a pretty big edge in a close quarters fight, and would help him take any damage Kaine can throw out via his stingers except for decapitation or dismemberment. Considering that this is post Shed Lizard, the speed is also going to be a problem as well. The guy was blitzing Spider-Man, and while Kaine is indeed physically faster than Peter, the speed difference between the two is ultimately fairly negligible, and the only thing that saved Peter from Connor's speed was his prodigious use of his Spider Sense and Way of the Spider martial style. Two things that unfortunately, Kaine does not have up his sleeves. Kaine on the other hand boasts the main advantage of being more versatile overall. He's rocking comparable strength that while superior to Spider-Man's most likely isn't as good as Lizard's, and he doesn't have to engage Lizard solely in close range combat. While he isn't as good with web incap as someone like a Spider-Man per say(Whom has his Spider Sense guiding his webbing), he's web incapped a werewolf sporting physicals almost equal to his, has organic webbing(Which in large amounts has held down Iron Man), and he doesn't completely shun the webbing in combat even if it isn't his primary option. The webbing gives him the edge of being able to bang inside and outside with Lizard. And while he won't beat Lizard solely close quarters, he can hold his own there. He has his stingers which can cause severe damage to Lizard if he goes for the right areas, and his Other amped physicals will help him hang in there better. It's all about him just using his brain here.

As of now, I'd say that if Kaine goes primarily close quarters, he'll lose. If he mixes and matches close/ranged combat, he'll pull a majority after a tough fight.

#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

Uggggggggggggghhhhhh, @laflux, I just made an extende dpost in a Spider-Man related thread. I think I'm becoming a Spider nut hugger........

#9 Posted by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 I wouldn't say that Kaine is as strong as Lizard. While Kaine is undoubtedly stronger than Peter, I don't believe it's to the degree that Connors is. Kaine did break out restraints designed for Peter. While that shows that he is indeed stronger than him, it took time and visible effort for him to do so. Connors however, is according to Peter three times as strong as him. I'd say that enough to say that he's stronger than Kaine.

#10 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio

alright here we go Scarlet Spider FTW lets go into why @k4tzm4n

Physicals- obvious choice here... his Physicals are better than Peters. When he actually decided to kill Kraven he did it in one punch. i know it will take a long more here but Kaines physicals give him better dodging abilities and much stronger blows. The Lizard is very durable no doubt but enough punches from Kaine and he'll start to feel them

Webbing- lets not forget that Kaine has more than just regular webbing. He has acidic webbing. Will this hurt the Lizard? probably... will it give him the win by itself most certainly not. but it will be a contributing factor.

Stealth- Kaines suit allows him to turn Invisible. Now, unless im mistaken, The Lizard has some enhanced senses so this will work in short bursts. he goes invisible for 5 seconds and then appears after punching the lizard. this ties back to his superior striking power.

Durability- i know this ties into Physicals but he really is durable. to blunt force and slashing... his bout with Wolverine was staged (but its pretty much how the fight would have gone down if they were actually fighting)

Stingers/blade/stabby things- these things have pierced Carnage so can they pierce the Lizard? absolutely and they will hurt allot. I believe the Lizard has a minor healing factor (no where close to the same level as Wolverine or Deadpool)

so i figure once Kaine stabby stabs The Lizard enough times, The Lizard will either get incaped/koed/killed or he'll make a "tactical" retreat. Kianes versatility really is going to be a big help in this fight.

just my thoughts though

#11 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@wolverine08 I wouldn't say that Kaine is as strong as Lizard. While Kaine is undoubtedly stronger than Peter, I don't believe it's to the degree that Connors is. Kaine did break out restraints designed for Peter. While that shows that he is indeed stronger than him, it took time and visible effort for him to do so. Connors however, is according to Peter three times as strong as him. I'd say that enough to say that he's stronger than Kaine.

Yeah, that's why I mainly stuck with comparable in my measurement of their strength.

#12 Posted by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08

He's rocking comparable if not greater physical strength

Hmm?

#13 Edited by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Posted by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 While Kaine is indeed stronger than Peter, he's not as strong as Curt. I highly doubt Kaine could put him down with just H2H.

#16 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17331 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really sure on this one, seems that either could actually win in this fight. Both are ruthless fighters who are willing to do a lot of damage to the other. I think Lizard may have an advantage in sheer savagery and strength where as Kaine is slightly more agile and versatile. Look I know this is an upgraded Lizard but lets not forget that in the original arc spider-man was holding back as he was struggling to even attempt and risk lizards life, where as Kaine can be far more flexible in terms of morality. Sure he's come a long way since his main method slaughtering his opponents but that won't stop him from seeing that Lizard is a basic loose canon that if not killed, needs to be incapacitated.

And for that reason, I give it to Kaine. It won't be easy though.

#18 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (1436 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: lizard has a minorbhealingn factor? He's HF is arguably better than wolverines

On the battle I believe lizard will win, Lainey's not as smart as peter or as skilled, he'll relay on his own abilities which are indeed powerful but not comparable with the lizard one major hit from lizard and Kaine will go down

#19 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@kidman560 While Kaine is indeed stronger than Peter, he's not as strong as Curt. I highly doubt Kaine could put him down with just H2H.

i believe that a combination of his blows + his stingers and his ability to move faster than Pete IE dodge more of Lizards attacks should allow him the victory

#20 Edited by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 Curt also has claws and his teeth to add to his already greater strength. He's also faster than Peter.

#21 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32823 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@wolverine08 said:

@i_like_swords said:

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

Lizard doesn't use blunt force though. He's bringing stabbing damage to the table via his claws, and while Kaine is the more versatile combatant overall, he tends to limit himself to using his stingers in melee range. He has CIS of sorts.

To be fair, he can dish out blunt force via his tail. But yeah, stabbing/slashing via claws and even teeth are bound to happen.

I have a feeling this fight would be similar to Kaine's fight with the werewolves

#22 Posted by butters911 (251 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Kaine has got this. Itll be a tough fight but he is stronger than Spidey, and wouldn't hesitate to put his stingers through Curt's head

#23 Edited by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@kidman560 Curt also has claws and his teeth to add to his already greater strength. He's also faster than Peter.

So was Kraven... and Kaine killed him in one punch

also that whole fight Kaine was taking blunt and slashing damage... i stand by my first posr

#24 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: Kraven isn't faster than Spider-Man. He's just studied his fighting style, allowing him to predict Peter's moves.

#25 Edited by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: Just fyi, Kraven isn't faster than Peter and he's not more durable than Lizard ;)

Staff
#26 Posted by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 He isn't faster than Peter nor is he as durable as Connors

#27 Posted by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: I dunno if you heard but Kraven isn't faster than Peter

#28 Edited by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, my point has already been made.

#29 Posted by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

Surprised to see no one's voted too close to call.

Staff
#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Surprised to see no one's voted too close to call.

WE WILL NOT BE INDECISIVE!

#31 Edited by i_like_swords (13131 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Surprised to see no one's voted too close to call.

I AM THE 3%!

#32 Posted by superior_prime_maybe (301 posts) - - Show Bio

the one problem with Peter vs Lizard was that peter is always holding back, because he doesnt want to hurt kurt conners. But kaine. Nothing holds him back

#33 Edited by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

@superior_prime_maybe said:

the one problem with Peter vs Lizard was that peter is always holding back, because he doesnt want to hurt kurt conners. But kaine. Nothing holds him back

Peter has admitted to not holding back on at least one occasion and says he still hurt his hand against Curt's body.

Staff
#34 Edited by HushoftheWind (806 posts) - - Show Bio

Im sorry Connors, you maybe a formidable monster in your own right, but in this scenario you're nothing but...

#35 Posted by spidershamrock (1075 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider, Lizard's got savage brain and wouldn't be as effective in the fight as he would be with the higher intelligence.

#36 Posted by InVincibleVultrimidas14 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe i missed it guys but which version of the lizard is being used? Is it lizard 2.0 while amazing was ending?

#37 Edited by dondave (34547 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidershamrock Kaine isn't exactly Einstein either. Savagery all is they need really.

#38 Edited by jashro44 (19714 posts) - - Show Bio

Lizard 8-9/10. He is way stronger, faster, has a healing factor, and claws. He has every notable advantage and Kaine doesn't use webbing often if at all. It is an epic and bloody fight but I don't see Kaine winning.

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

Lizard should have much higher damage soak. Peter stabbed him in one side of his brain and he still had to use all his webbing to restrain Lizard. His versatility won't help him in melee.

Not really sure on this one, seems that either could actually win in this fight. Both are ruthless fighters who are willing to do a lot of damage to the other. I think Lizard may have an advantage in sheer savagery and strength where as Kaine is slightly more agile and versatile. Look I know this is an upgraded Lizard but lets not forget that in the original arc spider-man was holding back as he was struggling to even attempt and risk lizards life, where as Kaine can be far more flexible in terms of morality. Sure he's come a long way since his main method slaughtering his opponents but that won't stop him from seeing that Lizard is a basic loose canon that if not killed, needs to be incapacitated.

And for that reason, I give it to Kaine. It won't be easy though.

Current lizard was dodging Peters attacks, and Peter couldn't touch him (I will upload scans in a bit if needed). He should be more agile than Kaine.

alright here we go Scarlet Spider FTW lets go into why @k4tzm4n

Physicals- obvious choice here... his Physicals are better than Peters. When he actually decided to kill Kraven he did it in one punch. i know it will take a long more here but Kaines physicals give him better dodging abilities and much stronger blows. The Lizard is very durable no doubt but enough punches from Kaine and he'll start to feel them

Webbing- lets not forget that Kaine has more than just regular webbing. He has acidic webbing. Will this hurt the Lizard? probably... will it give him the win by itself most certainly not. but it will be a contributing factor.

Stealth- Kaines suit allows him to turn Invisible. Now, unless im mistaken, The Lizard has some enhanced senses so this will work in short bursts. he goes invisible for 5 seconds and then appears after punching the lizard. this ties back to his superior striking power.

Durability- i know this ties into Physicals but he really is durable. to blunt force and slashing... his bout with Wolverine was staged (but its pretty much how the fight would have gone down if they were actually fighting)

Stingers/blade/stabby things- these things have pierced Carnage so can they pierce the Lizard? absolutely and they will hurt allot. I believe the Lizard has a minor healing factor (no where close to the same level as Wolverine or Deadpool)

so i figure once Kaine stabby stabs The Lizard enough times, The Lizard will either get incaped/koed/killed or he'll make a "tactical" retreat. Kianes versatility really is going to be a big help in this fight.

just my thoughts though

Lizards physicals are way out of Peters leagues. He's been stated to be 3X stronger than Peter, by Peter himself and that was before his recent upgrade, he was blitzing peter so he is way faster. Kaine does not have better dodging abilities at all. When he can dance around someone as fast and agile as spider-man (and considering he struggled with Anna Kravenoff of all people thats not happening) he will be faster.

Kaine does not have acidic webbing unless I am missing something. THats peter. Additionally kaine has no accuracy feats to tag Lizard and he doesn't use webbing often

Lizards healing factor gives him much greater durability and wolverine wasn't trying to kill kaine in that fight where as lizard will rip Kiane limb from limb.

Lizard can tank stingers without much problem whereas conversely the same cannot be said for Kaine and lizard claws and teeth.

It takes a lot to incapacitate Lizard. Much less than it takes to incapacitate Kaine.

And Lizard is >>>>>>>>Kraven in stats as well.

Online
#39 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (1436 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine can't fight like he normally does that's why he loses spidey uses environment to win in a straight up fight lizard will win peter has the intelligence, Kaine will just rush in and lose

#40 Posted by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Lizard 8-9/10. He is way stronger, faster, has a healing factor, and claws. He has every notable advantage and Kaine doesn't use webbing often if at all. It is an epic and bloody fight but I don't see Kaine winning.

@i_like_swords said:

I think.. I'll take Scarlet Spider here. Lizard can certainly hurt him, but Kaine can take a really, really massive beating before succumbing to it, especially blunt force. He's the more versatile combatant and I figure this fight will go something like Ali vs Foreman, for a lack of a better example.

Lizard should have much higher damage soak. Peter stabbed him in one side of his brain and he still had to use all his webbing to restrain Lizard. His versatility won't help him in melee.

@theacidskull said:

Not really sure on this one, seems that either could actually win in this fight. Both are ruthless fighters who are willing to do a lot of damage to the other. I think Lizard may have an advantage in sheer savagery and strength where as Kaine is slightly more agile and versatile. Look I know this is an upgraded Lizard but lets not forget that in the original arc spider-man was holding back as he was struggling to even attempt and risk lizards life, where as Kaine can be far more flexible in terms of morality. Sure he's come a long way since his main method slaughtering his opponents but that won't stop him from seeing that Lizard is a basic loose canon that if not killed, needs to be incapacitated.

And for that reason, I give it to Kaine. It won't be easy though.

Current lizard was dodging Peters attacks, and Peter couldn't touch him (I will upload scans in a bit if needed). He should be more agile than Kaine.

@kidman560 said:

alright here we go Scarlet Spider FTW lets go into why @k4tzm4n

Physicals- obvious choice here... his Physicals are better than Peters. When he actually decided to kill Kraven he did it in one punch. i know it will take a long more here but Kaines physicals give him better dodging abilities and much stronger blows. The Lizard is very durable no doubt but enough punches from Kaine and he'll start to feel them

Webbing- lets not forget that Kaine has more than just regular webbing. He has acidic webbing. Will this hurt the Lizard? probably... will it give him the win by itself most certainly not. but it will be a contributing factor.

Stealth- Kaines suit allows him to turn Invisible. Now, unless im mistaken, The Lizard has some enhanced senses so this will work in short bursts. he goes invisible for 5 seconds and then appears after punching the lizard. this ties back to his superior striking power.

Durability- i know this ties into Physicals but he really is durable. to blunt force and slashing... his bout with Wolverine was staged (but its pretty much how the fight would have gone down if they were actually fighting)

Stingers/blade/stabby things- these things have pierced Carnage so can they pierce the Lizard? absolutely and they will hurt allot. I believe the Lizard has a minor healing factor (no where close to the same level as Wolverine or Deadpool)

so i figure once Kaine stabby stabs The Lizard enough times, The Lizard will either get incaped/koed/killed or he'll make a "tactical" retreat. Kianes versatility really is going to be a big help in this fight.

just my thoughts though

Lizards physicals are way out of Peters leagues. He's been stated to be 3X stronger than Peter, by Peter himself and that was before his recent upgrade, he was blitzing peter so he is way faster. Kaine does not have better dodging abilities at all. When he can dance around someone as fast and agile as spider-man (and considering he struggled with Anna Kravenoff of all people thats not happening) he will be faster.

Kaine does not have acidic webbing unless I am missing something. THats peter. Additionally kaine has no accuracy feats to tag Lizard and he doesn't use webbing often

Lizards healing factor gives him much greater durability and wolverine wasn't trying to kill kaine in that fight where as lizard will rip Kiane limb from limb.

Lizard can tank stingers without much problem whereas conversely the same cannot be said for Kaine and lizard claws and teeth.

It takes a lot to incapacitate Lizard. Much less than it takes to incapacitate Kaine.

And Lizard is >>>>>>>>Kraven in stats as well.

I think you should. It seems as though some are underestimating Lizard.

Staff
#41 Edited by God_Spawn (37346 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#42 Posted by jashro44 (19714 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Is this Lizard with Connors mind or is this the Lizard persona? If its the pLizard persona is his mind stable or is it going to be like how it was in no turning back (seeing Connors wife and such)?

I'm kind of tentative as of now towards how this will all play out, but I feel Kaine can win this depending on how he goes about the options laying before him. Lizard brings the damage soak edge via his absolutely ridiculous healing factor which would give him a pretty big edge in a close quarters fight, and would help him take any damage Kaine can throw out via his stingers except for decapitation or dismemberment. Considering that this is post Shed Lizard, the speed is also going to be a problem as well. The guy was blitzing Spider-Man, and while Kaine is indeed physically faster than Peter, the speed difference between the two is ultimately fairly negligible, and the only thing that saved Peter from Connor's speed was his prodigious use of his Spider Sense and Way of the Spider martial style. Two things that unfortunately, Kaine does not have up his sleeves. Kaine on the other hand boasts the main advantage of being more versatile overall. He's rocking comparable strength that while superior to Spider-Man's most likely isn't as good as Lizard's, and he doesn't have to engage Lizard solely in close range combat. While he isn't as good with web incap as someone like a Spider-Man per say(Whom has his Spider Sense guiding his webbing), he's web incapped a werewolf sporting physicals almost equal to his, has organic webbing(Which in large amounts has held down Iron Man), and he doesn't completely shun the webbing in combat even if it isn't his primary option. The webbing gives him the edge of being able to bang inside and outside with Lizard. And while he won't beat Lizard solely close quarters, he can hold his own there. He has his stingers which can cause severe damage to Lizard if he goes for the right areas, and his Other amped physicals will help him hang in there better. It's all about him just using his brain here.

As of now, I'd say that if Kaine goes primarily close quarters, he'll lose. If he mixes and matches close/ranged combat, he'll pull a majority after a tough fight.

Actually Peters spider-sense and way of the spider didn't help him against current Lizard. Lizard was having a mental breakdown at the time, and because there were people around when he attacked them he was Connors wife and son. And COnnors mind was starting to influence Lizard so he would stop attacking them which is the only reason Peter even touched current Lizard.

The problem with webbing is that Kaine has no notable accuracy feats to tag someone as fast and agile as current lizard. Also its going to take a lot of webbing to stop current Lizard since even after spider man stabbed Lizard with what was suppose to be a cure in one side of his brain he still had to use all the webbing he had left to restrain Lizard. lizard could very well claw his way out of webbing unless Kaine decides to spam heavy amounts of webbing.I don't see Kaine tagging Lizard with webbing.

Online
#43 Posted by jashro44 (19714 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#44 Posted by k4tzm4n (36433 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Curt is not in control and yes, it's stable. There won't be any conflict. I want to keep the fight basic.

Staff
#45 Posted by Owie (3621 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning towards Lizard right now, although I mostly know Kaine by rep and not from direct reading, so I'm open to persuasion.

But my impression is that their strength and speed are not dramatically different. Possibly Lizard is stronger and faster. The classic strength comparison between Peter and Lizard was that Peter was at 10 tons and Lizard at 14, but lots has happened since then, the Lizard has evolved multiple times. I would still be surprised that Lizard would be 3x Peter's strength though.

Kaine is obviously a fairly no morals guy. But is he more ferocious than Lizard? Lizard just wants to kill all mammals dead. Of course, this may be comparing a guy who is perfectly willing to kill his enemies with a guy who is very excited to kill his enemies. It may not matter.

Kaine has some sharp spines. Lizard has claws and teeth. I would argue that Lizard is probably slightly ahead here, in that is they are theoretically holding each other's hands so they can't claw each other, Lizard can still bite Kaine. But again this is fairly close.

So all that is pretty similar, and maybe a small edge to Lizard in each category. But the deciding factor to me is his healing factor. It's strong enough to recover missing limbs over time. It's good. I think this fight would be a long slog of wearing each other down, cut by cut, hit by hit, kick by kick. And in the end, Lizard is going to be able to tank those blows and slashes better than Kaine. He'll be the long-term survivor.

Now, one other factor. Kaine apparently has Pete's stealth suit? One of my big questions is, does he actually use it to become invisible, and often? Is that in character for him in this kind of battle? That could have an effect on my thinking here. Although I would also wonder whether the Lizard could sense him by smell etc.

So for now, I just think Lizard is better equipped to out-survive what Kaine can do than Kaine is equipped to out-survive what Lizard can do.

#46 Edited by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Actually Peters spider-sense and way of the spider didn't help him against current Lizard. Lizard was having a mental breakdown at the time, and because there were people around when he attacked them he was Connors wife and son. And COnnors mind was starting to influence Lizard so he would stop attacking them which is the only reason Peter even touched current Lizard.

Oh, I'm admittedly not as well read on current Lizard as I am Kaine, so thanks for the information.

The problem with webbing is that Kaine has no notable accuracy feats to tag someone as fast and agile as current lizard. Also its going to take a lot of webbing to stop current Lizard since even after spider man stabbed Lizard with what was suppose to be a cure in one side of his brain he still had to use all the webbing he had left to restrain Lizard. lizard could very well claw his way out of webbing unless Kaine decides to spam heavy amounts of webbing.I don't see Kaine tagging Lizard with webbing.

Well, he did tag and incap that werewolf whom had physicals that were comparable to his back during the earlier issues of Scarlet Spider, but you are right in that he's limited in the accuracy department since he doesn't use webbing as much as he should.

#47 Posted by Wolverine08 (38806 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

Now, one other factor. Kaine apparently has Pete's stealth suit? One of my big questions is, does he actually use it to become invisible, and often? Is that in character for him in this kind of battle?

No, not really. Only times I can remember him utilizing his stealth suit are when he broke into the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning looking for Wolverine. Kaine really doesn't make use of it combat wise.

#48 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@kidman560 While Kaine is indeed stronger than Peter, he's not as strong as Curt. I highly doubt Kaine could put him down with just H2H.

i believe that a combination of his blows + his stingers and his ability to move faster than Pete IE dodge more of Lizards attacks should allow him the victory

Consider that Kaine does not have Pete's Spider Sense though. He will likely be getting hit more than Pete does, if anything.

the one problem with Peter vs Lizard was that peter is always holding back, because he doesnt want to hurt kurt conners. But kaine. Nothing holds him back

Actually, Connors was holding back too. He always saw Pete as a son and tried to hold himself back as much as possible, even wresting control back from "The Lizard" just as he was about to kill Pete several times. This isn't the case any longer post-Shed but even while Connors was holding back he curbstomped Pete in almost every fight they had. One of their fights ended with him throwing Pete off a building and Pete only survived due to landing on some cushions that happened to be in a dumpster. Another time Pete had to be rescued by the X-men.

I can't recall a time Pete's ever even come close to beating Lizard in a straight-up fight. He usually needs to take advantage of LIzard's weaknesses (ice/cold) or some kind of plot device.

Now to be fair, Kaine is physically superior to Pete and more ruthless so he has better chances here but it's not as simple as saying "Pete has beaten him so Kaine can too".

#49 Posted by cdiddyman911 (2372 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm....backing the Lizard on this one. I feel that his strength is a bit stronger than Kaine's. The strength is actually very comparable, however the Lizard has still showed consistent feats showing he has at least a 5 ton advantage over Kaine. Another thing that the Lizard has over Kaine is speed. While Kaine is certainly fast, I highly doubt he can speedblitz Spiderman like the Lizard did. In fact, the only thing that kept Spiderman from being torn up from Lizard's speed was his spider sense, something Kaine doesn't have. Albeit, Kaine is faster than Spidey, but I still think Lizard will be able to blitz the Scarlet Spider. Durability and healing factor are also a major part of this battle, two things the Lizard happens to excel in. I doubt Scarlet can pierce Lizard deep enough to actually kill him and once he lets the stingers out Lizard will immediately heal. And punching Lizard never seems to be a real pain to Lizard, even if the person punching is as strong as Kaine. I would like to take note on Kaine's piercing durability too. Kaine has been stabbed by Carnage through the stomach and shrugged it off. While this is impressive I believe constant stab from Lizard will put him down. Next, I would like to touch on ruthlessness. They both can be but I strongly think Lizard will start by trying to kill while Kaine start out in that state of mind. That also makes a huge difference IMO. Lastly, I feel I should touch on versatility which while a clear edge to Scarlet Spider isn't all that effective. He has stingers which as I've touched on won't be that much of a threat to the Lizard. Next is webbing, which again won't do much. He uses webbing a lot more ineffectively than Spider Man, and Lizard has done superb against Spider Man's webs. The most dangerous thing in Kaine's arsenal is the suit which can go invisible. It's a pretty suit but once he makes a move he will give away his position.

While Kaine is a tough cookie, Lizard's physicals give him a win of 7/10

#50 Edited by jashro44 (19714 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@jashro44: Curt is not in control and yes, it's stable. There won't be any conflict. I want to keep the fight basic.

All right good to know.

@jashro44:

Oh, I'm admittedly not as well read on current Lizard as I am Kaine, so thanks for the information.

No problem.

Well, he did tag and incap that werewolf whom had physicals that were comparable to his back during the earlier issues of Scarlet Spider, but you are right in that he's limited in the accuracy department since he doesn't use webbing as much as he should.

I did forget about the fight with the wolves and I will have to reread it but I don't think the Lobos are as fast as lizard. Anyways here are a few scans for now:

Most recent fight with spider-man. Peter only seems to even touch him when his attention is on civilians and when he is having a mental break down since he wont be having that problem here Kiane is going to struggle to stab Lizard. Also notice that Peter stabs him in the brain he still needs to use webbing to hold Lizard down.
Peter hurts his hand punching Lizard, keep in mind current Lizard is even stronger.
Tanks massive explosions
Lizard gets impaled through the chest with a rock and it doesn't stop him. He gets back up and he's still fighting.
Lizard can regrow limbs. Not sure how long it would take but this just shows the amount of damage he can heal from.

I might try to get some more scans but I just want to get these out there right now. Make sure you check out the first set since those are scans of Lizards most recent transformation in no turning back. Those are the most important set of scans.

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