Spider-Man Battle of the Week VOTING: Doctor Octopus vs. Kraven the Hunter

@amazingspiderman15: Let me rephrase then: I don't believe Kraven can dodge long enough and beat dock ock before Otto grabs him and pins him down.

@jashro44 said:

@owie said:

In terms of traps, I was mostly just thinking out loud, so yes I agree there's not much chance of that working out well. But Kraven could, for instance, run into a building, then set up a beam to fall when Ock opened the door or whatever. But anyway I'm not setting much weight on that working out.

In terms of avoidance feats, Kraven's best avoidance feats are fighting Spider-Man and managing to not get knocked out immediately in numerous up-close fights, which is obviously pretty impressive to be able to do. He does it based on his skill as well as his enhanced physicals. I would think that would work out reasonably well for him here.

But yes I agree, if Ock catches him, it's all over.

I would disagree that Ock's travel speed is necessarily faster than Kraven's. Kraven's 60mph running is pretty fast.

My major issue with using his fights with spider-man is Otto does the same thing as well. Additionally Kraven does get tagged by Peter in hand to hand. He can counter a few hits but he will always get hit, he can just take it because he is really durable (Peter once used the same punch he used to stagger hulk in order to knock Kraven out). Otto on the other hand has always been harder for Peter to tag IMO. Pretty sure he's had a few fights where Peter couldn't tag him (for the record Peter would definitely beat Otto and I'm not saying otherwise). However there has never been a fight where Kraven has gone untouched. The difference being is that Kraven has studied the way Peter fights:

Gallery

Now yea Otto only won the fight by using the nullifier but in this fight peter doesn't actually tag him. Comparatively Otto does manage to tag Peter. Not saying he is faster than Peter but I think he's pretty close to his speed. The only reason otto resorts to the nullifier is because of Peters strength and kraven is weaker than Dock Ock is. So going by fights with spider-man I still say there is a noticeable gap in speed and I think its more likely that Otto will tag Kraven first.

As for travel speed its hard to gauge Otto's speed for certain however the arms can probably move pretty fast in order to block the stuff they block. I am not saying he moves as fast as the projectiles he blocks or anything but the movement speed of the arms have been impressive. The strides are also a lot longer than Kravens, and if Otto is slower he has climbed on buildings with his arms so he can probably cut across areas and take short cuts Kraven cannot if needed.

I hear you. Looking back at some old Ock and Kraven fights, I agree that Kraven doesn't really use a gymnastic style of fighting. He does take some hits from Spidey, while Ock does usually manage to avoid them--at least he manages to usually avoid getting his own human body hit. To a degree this is Ock's speed. His arms are very fast. I also think its partly plot based, in that Spidey should be able to knock Ock out any time he manages to connect with him, so they can't let him get hit. But in any case Ock's ability to avoid getting punched is part of his record.

Still I think Kraven has a decent chance of getting in there. He is physically very fast, whether or not he tends to be gymnastic, and between his martial skills and speed he can hang with the likes of Spidey or DD, so I think there's a reasonable chance he can get inside the arms some of the time. And if he gets in a hit, like DD did multiple times in the fight above, he could kill Ock with a single slice of a machete. So it's a matter of chance--he would have a hard time getting in, but if he does he can kill Ock. But on the other hand if Ock gets his "hands" on Kraven, Ock will crush him.

I know you've seen this fight between Kraven and Daredevil and Black Widow, but I'll throw it in for anyone else who hasn't. It equates Kraven's and DD's agility to a degree, although it doesn't show a lot of fancy dodging.

Gallery

I agree Ock can travel pretty fast with his stride length. But I would think Kraven would still be faster.

In the end, when I ran across this scene, I thought it supported Kraven's chances and up-close strategy as best as anything else. He speedily dodges the snakes like he would try to do with Ock's arms, then nerve-punches the gorilla, one-shotting it. I'm not saying this is exactly how it would go, but it's kind of funny how appropriate it is. :)

I'm probably going for a 50/50 split here.

My problem with this is daredevil and Dock Ock are two different enemies. Just because Kraven can fight daredevil and spider-man doesn't make him agile himself. A perfect example is kingpin. He has fought both spider-man and daredevil (granted he;s been curbstomped by Peter in recent showings but thats besides the point), and yet he doesn't have a fraction of their agility. Often times in both real life and comics characters who aren't nearly as acrobatic as others can still keep up with characters that are. There's a difference between dodging speed and combat speed. The former is what Kraven needs to win a majority here.

I am not sure if it equates Kravens acrobatics to daredevils. All though even if it does it doesn't really make him as agile as daredevil because daredevil would still have the better gymnastic feats. Also as I mentioned earlier daredevil tagged Otto because he leapt right inside his arms and started past his reach (Otto wasn't expecting to come crashing through the window IIRC). Also if we are going by the logic that Otto has been tagged by comparable characters to Kraven than we should consider the reverse. Like the time Kraven fought Kazaar and was tagged:

Gallery

So I could just as easily say that because Kraven has been tagged by people slower than Dock Ock he will get tagged here. So they've both been tagged by characters slower than each other, difference being is Otto has better speed feats in general so he is likely to grab Kraven first.

I don't believe Kraven will be able to dodge Ocks arms like those snakes. Thing is Otto is much more intelligent than the snakes and his arms have other differences as well.

I Voted for Otto on this one, for a number of reasons. Titanium controlled mechanical arms far outmatch almost anything Kraven call pull up against the character. If anything, this ones a slaughter.

Whilst Kraven enhances his strength and speed with potions, but Doc Ock's arms have been described as light steel prehensile arrows, which I am sure could hold their own against Kraven's Staff and animals. Doc Ock would also be able to navigate swiftly around buildings by wall scaling, whilst it has been said he can strike with the force of a jackhammer.

@jashro44 said:

@owie said:

I hear you. Looking back at some old Ock and Kraven fights, I agree that Kraven doesn't really use a gymnastic style of fighting. He does take some hits from Spidey, while Ock does usually manage to avoid them--at least he manages to usually avoid getting his own human body hit. To a degree this is Ock's speed. His arms are very fast. I also think its partly plot based, in that Spidey should be able to knock Ock out any time he manages to connect with him, so they can't let him get hit. But in any case Ock's ability to avoid getting punched is part of his record.

Still I think Kraven has a decent chance of getting in there. He is physically very fast, whether or not he tends to be gymnastic, and between his martial skills and speed he can hang with the likes of Spidey or DD, so I think there's a reasonable chance he can get inside the arms some of the time. And if he gets in a hit, like DD did multiple times in the fight above, he could kill Ock with a single slice of a machete. So it's a matter of chance--he would have a hard time getting in, but if he does he can kill Ock. But on the other hand if Ock gets his "hands" on Kraven, Ock will crush him.

I know you've seen this fight between Kraven and Daredevil and Black Widow, but I'll throw it in for anyone else who hasn't. It equates Kraven's and DD's agility to a degree, although it doesn't show a lot of fancy dodging.

I agree Ock can travel pretty fast with his stride length. But I would think Kraven would still be faster.

In the end, when I ran across this scene, I thought it supported Kraven's chances and up-close strategy as best as anything else. He speedily dodges the snakes like he would try to do with Ock's arms, then nerve-punches the gorilla, one-shotting it. I'm not saying this is exactly how it would go, but it's kind of funny how appropriate it is. :)

I'm probably going for a 50/50 split here.

My problem with this is daredevil and Dock Ock are two different enemies. Just because Kraven can fight daredevil and spider-man doesn't make him agile himself. A perfect example is kingpin. He has fought both spider-man and daredevil (granted he;s been curbstomped by Peter in recent showings but thats besides the point), and yet he doesn't have a fraction of their agility. Often times in both real life and comics characters who aren't nearly as acrobatic as others can still keep up with characters that are. There's a difference between dodging speed and combat speed. The former is what Kraven needs to win a majority here.

I am not sure if it equates Kravens acrobatics to daredevils. All though even if it does it doesn't really make him as agile as daredevil because daredevil would still have the better gymnastic feats. Also as I mentioned earlier daredevil tagged Otto because he leapt right inside his arms and started past his reach (Otto wasn't expecting to come crashing through the window IIRC). Also if we are going by the logic that Otto has been tagged by comparable characters to Kraven than we should consider the reverse. Like the time Kraven fought Kazaar and was tagged:

Gallery

So I could just as easily say that because Kraven has been tagged by people slower than Dock Ock he will get tagged here. So they've both been tagged by characters slower than each other, difference being is Otto has better speed feats in general so he is likely to grab Kraven first.

I don't believe Kraven will be able to dodge Ocks arms like those snakes. Thing is Otto is much more intelligent than the snakes and his arms have other differences as well.

Good points. But while I like your Kingpin analogy, I think it's not totally apt. While Kraven doesn't have as many obvious acrobatic feats as DD or Spider-man, he does have some, and I think both his travel speed and small-movement speed (combat/dodging) are enhanced. Being less-acrobatic, but faster, than DD, he can have a chance at doing what DD did. Again, I completely agree that Ock is also very fast, so Kraven isn't going to do this easily, or every time.

The scan does have DD say, "I'm not bad at high-altitude acrobatics myself," implying that Kraven is also good at high-altitude acrobatics. I'm not saying they're fully equal, just that it gives some props to Kraven's agility.

The snakes are obviously not as dangerous as Ock's arms. Just a humorous comparison.

Speaking of which, the Ka-Zar scan does bring up the gas-nipples and laser-nipples! Even if Kraven gets grabbed, he could always use those!

What daredevil did was land right in front of Dock Ock though....Kravens not going to start quite that close to Otto as DD did. DD started like 10-20 feet away from Otto and the OP has them starting 60 feet apart. Additionally all though Kraven may have more raw speed than daredevil, daredevil has radar sense which helps a lot in his avoidance. Likewise he is also more skilled than Kraven over all.

I agree with that. But considering daredevil did end up pinned and needed to be saved by heather I don't think this is enough. Yea he got a few shots in but daredevil is better at avoidance overall. The guy regularly goes toe to toe with bullseye and wins for example. Avoidance is a huge part of daredevils fighting style. In his most recent fight with Steve, Cap fired anti-radar chaffing in the air and he actually managed to avoid Steve for quite a few pages as well. My point is that even if Kraven does have comparable acrobatics and greater speed I still think daredevil has greater avoidance feats by a fairly noticeable extent.

Nipple lasers>>>>>Galactus

All though in all seriousness Otto has propelled gas and has shown to deflect lasers before. I know your only joking but I figured I would bring this up encase anyone is wondering how Otto will counter.