I don't think it's ever been stated how fast superman moves on foot"
While he was racing the Flash, it was stated by Wally that Superman moving at 2000 miles per second, on foot.
Yeesh! That is 3,218,688 meters per second which is just over mach 9458. His speed was 7,200,000 miles per hour which is enough to circle the Earth at the equator 289.14 times in one second. If that was his max running speed..... well damn.
I can't think of any scenario in which hulk has a huge piece of rope to tug the earth.
I can't help it but ... seriously ... hulk can't fly how the hell is this feat even comparable to hulk. This is a ridiculous feat to compare to him.. Whether or not he is stronger I dunno but to compare a feat that the hulk physically cannot do due to inability to fly is ... pointless.
It is like saying human torch can light a candle w/ his powers but ice man cant so iceman loses.
Edit: OP great post ... I hope this helps alleviate the problem of being big and strong means you lose to anyone faster than you on this forum.
@SlimJ87D: Ah I see. Well it is still a very nice OP.
Thanks Erik, that means a lot coming from you. @Erik:
@Static Shock
: Wait wait wait... I know that scan. What Wally meant was if he stole Superman's speed then the pace that he was moving at would be like him being thrown out of a car moving at those speeds.
They are moving super fast, but if he stole all of Superman's speed or slowed him down to a statue like person then he would be slower relative to normal time and would be moving equavently at 2000 miles per second slowed down while moving at the speed they are currently moving at. It would be out of character for them to move at 74 times the speed of light on earth.
I don't think it's ever been stated how fast superman moves on foot"
While he was racing the Flash, it was stated by Wally that Superman moving at 2000 miles per second, on foot.
Yeesh! That is 3,218,688 meters per second which is just over mach 9458. His speed was 7,200,000 miles per hour which is enough to circle the Earth at the equator 289.14 times in one second. If that was his max running speed..... well damn.
I actually based my calculation off of yours. From my memory light can travel around the world 4 times a second and I saw you posted 289 times per a second there... is that correct?
But my speed steal and Superman tumbling out of a car at 2000 miles per a second still stands I believe.
@SlimJ87D: Yes. Though I am not sure how fast light can travel around the planet, the Earth has a circumference of 24,901.55 miles at the equator. If Superman was running at.... holy crap I know where I went wrong. I divided the miles per hour not the miles per second. Whoopsie-daisy.
Okay, new calculation lol:
2,000 miles per second is 3,218,688 meters per second which is still just over mach 9458 and equal to 7,200,000 miles per hour. Running at that speed it he would circle the Earth at the equator 289.14 times in a hour. It would take him 12.45 seconds to circle the globe once.
But my speed steal and Superman tumbling out of a car at 2000 miles per a second still stands I believe.
So, you think Superman was running faster than that?
No, I think they are both running slower than that. I think the Flash meant if he stole Superman's speed like he did to Inertia then SUperman would be so slow and since his body has so much momentum it would feel like him tumbling at 2000 MPS.
1. Wally talked about stealing his speed and then he is using an analogy right after that. 2. If he turned SUperman into a statue he would tumble, hence Wally's analogy.
the Hulk is capable of Superhuman reactions. (no where near as fast as anyone like Superman.) but I belive at one point he did snatch a tankshell out of mid air.
@SlimJ87D: Nice thread. It was actually a weird moment when I started to think of superhero comics as science fiction. I guess I put them in their own category as I was growing up. I think it's important that writers give their characters some kind of grounding in science...or at least a science-ish concept that they make up. It creates a consistent world necessary for a story to have actual tension and peril.
A couple of Superman issues:
It's said that Superman gets his power from yellow sun radiation, but it should be possible to calculate how much energy he might have absorbed from the radiation he's been exposed to in his life. This should limit the feats he can do. Even if his body stores and converts that energy at 100% efficiency there still is only so much of it.
Also, I agree with those who don't accept Superman pulling a planet through space as a strength feat. That doesn't have anymore to do with strength than flying itself. That's gravity manipulation or telekinesis or something.
@SlimJ87D: Nice thread. It was actually a weird moment when I started to think of superhero comics as science fiction. I guess I put them in their own category as I was growing up. I think it's important that writers give their characters some kind of grounding in science...or at least a science-ish concept that they make up. It creates a consistent world necessary for a story to have actual tension and peril. A couple of Superman issues: It's said that Superman gets his power from yellow sun radiation, but it should be possible to calculate how much energy he might have absorbed from the radiation he's been exposed to in his life. This should limit the feats he can do. Even if his body stores and converts that energy at 100% efficiency there still is only so much of it. Also, I agree with those who don't accept Superman pulling a planet through space as a strength feat. That doesn't have anymore to do with strength than flying itself. That's gravity manipulation or telekinesis or something.
Well Superman's physiology is alien and that's how they get away with it.
Giving Supes some explanation based on physics is pointless... Especially "speed" issues. I mean seeing what's happening some lightyears away? Hearing a call from earth from a very distant system? I mean c'mon... Superman disregards physics.
As for him pulling a planet, yeah it is a "flying" feat but his flight IMO is still measured by how he translates his strength into his flight... How? I dunno. Just my theory.
OK I guess I dont really agree with most of this. Or at least i draw a different conclusion from it all.
@SlimJ87D said:
First, I would like to address people that are anti-Physics. Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." This is very simple physics and it does apply because it's nothing too complex. I am not trying to standardize physics and science into comics, but rather mix them together to explain some key differences to resolve confusion that causes frustration to the battle vets here.
PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER READING IF YOU STILL THINK I'M TRYING TO STANDARDIZE SCIENCE INTO COMICS! I AM NOT.
Now let me begin. Strength A common misconception in the battle boards is that someone who can lift 100 tons is surely able to punch buildings apart. This is not always true because:
I think the main reason to believe a "Class 100" type guy can punch buildings apart is firstly because they do. All the time.
1. Force relies on acceleration and mass.
Force doesnt rely on acceleration and mass. It is the acceleration of mass.
2. Impact, a integral of force also relies on velocity.
Therefore someone that can lift as much as Superman but doesn't move nearly as fast as Superman cannot punch nearly as hard as Superman. They can lift and grapple as strong as Superman could but they cannot punch as hard as him. Or cause impacts as devastating as him.
I dont think it works this way. Guys like Hulk who dont have superspeed per se can throw things into space and move every bit as explosively as anybody else. They might not be able to do the dishes in the blink of an eye or whatever but they can lift and punch and smash with the best of them. And i think that distinction even makes more sense if you try to bring real world science and physics into it.
But wait, it's not over. Why are super strong characters shown to punch hard? Well there are a number of reasons why:
Because if you can move a very, very, very heavy thing you can generate tremendous force and can throw a very, very fast powerful punch. It doesnt have to be any more complicated than that.
3. Their muscles and bones are more dense than the material they are hitting. Therefore their limbs do not brake when throwing a haymaker at a wall. If you punched a wall as hard as you could, a lot of the force would transfer back into your bones and brake them. This can significantly lower the amount of force you are trying to deliver to the wall.
4. Their muscles, bones and tendons support their small size so much that they are capable of delivering all their mass into their punches because they know their bone is not going to brake.
5. Their muscles, bones and tendons are probably strong enough to accelerate their mass instantly. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are FTL, it's just that with their stronger and more dense body allows them to throw a snapping like motion better than a normal humans. Therefore I am no contradicting myself from 1-2.
So in summary, this gives a good reason why characters like Luke Cage, Hulk or Max Damage are capable of delivering heavy blows without being much faster than an Olympic athlete.
I think its more the case that they should be faster than Olympic athletes at least in terms of simple explosive movements.
From this, two arguements can actually be made:
6. This is exactly why the Hulk can never beat Superman.
or
7. The Hulk actually does move at higher speeds than we think (but no where near speedsters). With the amount of lean muscles the Hulk has, and his muscles he can surely snap and throw his weight quickly. This can be a reason why he's capable of keeping up with some faster people like the Sentry. This is just a theory, you guys can discuss it.
To the extent that I like to bring these kinds of things into comic book debates then I go with the second argument. Full disclaimer - I am a Hulk fan and I definitely think he can beat Superman. But i dont think its a bad idea to go with the scenario that explains much of what we see in the actual comics. At least I dont like the explanation that tries to use F = ma to give effective superstrength etc to speedsters and yet flips the argument on its head to try and rob the pure strongmen of their strength. It seems a bit one-sided. But generally battleboards tend to be places where arguments and worldviews that favour fast, versatile characters over bricks predominate in my experience.
Speed Now it's time to tune into the Flashes. The Flashse abilities allow them to move at ultra high speeds, faster than even Superman. Thanks tot eh speed force, their durability is increased to sustain themselves when moving at super high speeds. Does this mean that the Flash can thunderclap stronger than the Hulk? Or they can even punch with greater impacts than Superman himself? The answer is yes.
Again - I dont really think so. Back in the late 90s some writers began to extrapolate from the Flashs powers that they should be able to deliver tremendous impacts etc and began to blow up their powerset to inconsistent effect. Of course the flipside of this is that simple bricks like Hulk etc should actually possess vastly superhuman speed but this hasnt really been played up as much.
Thunder clapping: Essentially they are sonic booms caused by high impacts. I explained what influences great impacts already. Therefore the Flash theoretically would probably be able to Thunderclap with much more devastation than the Hulk and Juggernaut. An example is how Zoom (whose powers works differently but similarly than the Flashes) causes devastating sonic booms from just clicking his fingers. Thus, Zoom and Flash can most likely thunderclap better than Juggernaut and Hulk can. Other scans show them punching each other and with each punch causes a sonic boom.
I suppose it comes down to a "should" vs "would" argument. And that can go a lot of different ways. In one sense the idea that the Flashes can run at all at the sort of speeds they do is ridiculous given that the forces they are generating would propel them into orbit with each footstep. The speedforce doesnt explain away everything. And some of the things it is supposed to explain it does so very poorly. Or maybe we just say that The Flashes are just supposed to be really fast guys and more or less ignore the idea of trying to make them punch harder than Superman, as most comics in fact do.
If Superman that is harder then steel. And let say Quick Silver that is as close to physics as possible. Hits him at light speed or however fast he can. What will be the result of that punch?
1. Will QS arm get destroy.
2. Or will it be like a mosquito hitting a car windshield?
3. Or he goes so fast the he's speed creates a force field around he's knuckles. And knowing that QS strength is that of a normal human. Going that fast and hitting something or some one as tough as Sups won't the shield bounce him back to whatever is behind him?
For me you need to be equal physically or above. To have the effect's the Flashes have wend they hit some one like Sups.
Well since the Flashes can tap into the speed force and move faster than the speed of light (which scientifically speaking cannot be possible) are they essentially moving at the speed of which The Big Bang expanded itself? Considering that it moved much faster than the speed of light. Just an interesting thought I had.
@Fifthchild: It's fine you disagree no harm taken. But I just read your first point and don't have time to read the rest.
"Force doesnt rely on acceleration and mass. It is the acceleration of mass. "
It is the acceleration of mass so therefore it relies on both... increasing either one will create a bigger force, decreasing either one will decrease the force. Therefor it relies on both...
Strength does equal punching power, stamina or fighting skill.
F = m x a (Force = mass x acceleration).
This means, in terms of punching power; how fast (acceleration) you can put your weight (mass) behind your punch is more important than how much weight you can lift (strength) in determining how hard (force) you will strike/hit your target.
Arguably if you can lift 100 tonnes than you apply a force of 1000,000 newtons (100000K X 10( it has to be acceleration greater than 9.9 to exceed the pull of gravity) Therefore if you can apply a force of 1000000 newtons you can move your arm in a blow (4 to 5 kg) at 222222.22 meters per second (0.07% the speed of light or mach 667)
@beatboks1: It can be argued that Hulk can move at very high speeds. It makes sense, if his muscles are that strong then he should be able to support movements at super high speeds.
I think the only thing Hulk lacks is: 1. Super speed reflexes. 2. Super speed thought.
But surely he can most likely move his arms at such great speeds. Him jumping into orbit proves that fact. That is why he can go toe to toe with someone like the Sentry.
@beatboks1: It can be argued that Hulk can move at very high speeds. It makes sense, if his muscles are that strong then he should be able to support movements at super high speeds. I think the only thing Hulk lacks is: 1. Super speed reflexes. 2. Super speed thought. But surely he can most likely move his arms at such great speeds. Him jumping into orbit proves that fact. That is why he can go toe to toe with someone like the Sentry.
Wait, Hulk jumping into orbit proves his arms can move at great speed? How do you figure?
@SlimJ87D: Wow, great thread! One question though. Why would Flash be able to create a more powerful sonic boom than Hulk? I thought more energy means a higher amplitude, and the higher the amplitude means the louder the sound. Wouldn't a larger object displace more air increasing the intensity of the sonic boom, making the shock wave stronger? Sorry, I must have slept through physics class during the sound portion :P
Energy comes in many kinds of different units. Heat is energy for example. In the case of kinematics energy relies mostly on velocity and mass. Lets move to chemistry and pressure. Tiny molecules will push against each, the faster the molecules push the more impulse. So the Flash is very fast, and it makes up for it in his mass. When he claps at the speed he can clap it would cause the tiny molecules moving at light speeds hitting other molecules like a guy breaking balls at a pool table.
Isn't a sonic boom sound energy though? I thought the power of a shock wave relied on pressure difference aka amplitude.
@blacharrt: Thanks! @Erik: I was just thinking in proportionality between the abilities of your arms and legs. I mean if he can thrust his legs at great forces and speeds then proportionally his arms should move somewhere in that range.
I don't truly believe this since Spider-man and Captain America dodge. It's more of a inconsistency if anything.
Sentry tagging someone like Sentry, but having a hard time tagging slower beings. Sentry is quite fast.
@SlimJ87D: Wow, great thread! One question though. Why would Flash be able to create a more powerful sonic boom than Hulk? I thought more energy means a higher amplitude, and the higher the amplitude means the louder the sound. Wouldn't a larger object displace more air increasing the intensity of the sonic boom, making the shock wave stronger? Sorry, I must have slept through physics class during the sound portion :P
Energy comes in many kinds of different units. Heat is energy for example. In the case of kinematics energy relies mostly on velocity and mass. Lets move to chemistry and pressure. Tiny molecules will push against each, the faster the molecules push the more impulse. So the Flash is very fast, and it makes up for it in his mass. When he claps at the speed he can clap it would cause the tiny molecules moving at light speeds hitting other molecules like a guy breaking balls at a pool table.
Isn't a sonic boom sound energy though? I thought the power of a shock wave relied on pressure difference aka amplitude.
But you need an atmosphere for that. You can't sonic boom in space.
The amplitudes and such are dependent on some form of speed. If you were to work it out and did all the physics for a hand clap then you'd see that speed as well as mass would be the key for a louder sound and etc.
@SlimJ87D: I never said anything about creating a sonic boom in space. Could you explain how speed is related to how powerful a sonic boom is? I seem to be blanking here.
@SlimJ87D: I never said anything about creating a sonic boom in space. Could you explain how speed is related to how powerful a sonic boom is? I seem to be blanking here.
I didn't mean to say you brought up anything about space. I'm trying to go back to my chemistry example about the impulses of molecules colliding together when trying to move and escape from the vicinity of a palm. This is a form of "pressure" because pressure is molecules moving rapidly and bumping into each other.
@MikeLitoris said:
@SlimJ87D said:
@MikeLitoris said:
@SlimJ87D: Wow, great thread! One question though. Why would Flash be able to create a more powerful sonic boom than Hulk? I thought more energy means a higher amplitude, and the higher the amplitude means the louder the sound. Wouldn't a larger object displace more air increasing the intensity of the sonic boom, making the shock wave stronger? Sorry, I must have slept through physics class during the sound portion :P
Energy comes in many kinds of different units. Heat is energy for example. In the case of kinematics energy relies mostly on velocity and mass. Lets move to chemistry and pressure. Tiny molecules will push against each, the faster the molecules push the more impulse. So the Flash is very fast, and it makes up for it in his mass. When he claps at the speed he can clap it would cause the tiny molecules moving at light speeds hitting other molecules like a guy breaking balls at a pool table.
Isn't a sonic boom sound energy though? I thought the power of a shock wave relied on pressure difference aka amplitude.
These guys are kinda touching on the subject here. They start to mention air movement etc.
I really wish I had time to summarize and research for you but I'm currently at work. Like I said before, the many forms of energy excluding heat rely on mass and speed. Even E-mc^2 does for example.
@SlimJ87D: Alright, thanks. Doesn't E=MC^2 rely more on the mass as the speed of light is constant? Sorry to bother you BTW, I'm having kind of a brain fart here.
I think depending on how powerful the speedster is determines whether or not they're on Superman's level of punches, also depending on version Superman generally speaking is far above every speedster in terms over "pure strength" and feats.
Hulk takes forever to get anywhere near Supe level..
I think depending on how powerful the speedster is determines whether or not they're on Superman's level of punches, also depending on version Superman generally speaking is far above every speedster in terms over "pure strength" and feats. Hulk takes forever to get anywhere near Supe level..
There are boxers I know who can punch harder than the ones that are physically stronger due to their speeds. What do you mean by power exactly?
Yeah, speed can give you increased power...but I'm saying it's not everything. But a boxer is also human taking on a human that's just as strong if not stronger, however in this case with comics...let's be fair here, it's different. Superman is capable of lifting planets, cracking mountains. I just can't see Flash doing that even with all of his speed know what I mean?
Yeah, speed can give you increased power...but I'm saying it's not everything. But a boxer is also human taking on a human that's just as strong if not stronger, however in this case with comics...let's be fair here, it's different. Superman is capable of lifting planets, cracking mountains. I just can't see Flash doing that even with all of his speed know what I mean?
The Flash punches with the mass of 332,950 Earths he should be able to do more then that.
@MKF30: Remember he can punch so hard that he one shotted a white martian who is on Superman / MM level.
Has Superman ever one shotted a green or white martian?
Like I said earlier, punching is different from grappling and pulling. Those are two different kinds of forces. One is a gradually increasing force over time, the other happens instantly.
Perhaps Not but I'm sure Supes could if he tried, he's done more impressive things though like pulling planets and destroying solar systems though, holding black holes etc :P lol
I'm not saying Flash isn't impressive, he can do a lot with his speed etc but he's never punched thru a mountain or Earth like some people may claim. Even if he could do so, not saying he could or couldn't he hasn't yet. That's why I think it's more likely you'll see him one shot a martian or actual character. Superman and Hulk have one shotted a lot of powerful people too. While I know it wasn't canon, even the DC/Marvel crossover, Supes pretty much stomped Hulk and hardly even went all out.
Now, Flash vs. Hulk would be more interesting imo but like you said, it's two kinds of forces. Superman tends to hold back half the time being as how he has a ton of powers and his morals, Flash is just a human but has to use his speed powers to do damage. Since that's all he has
No, he's done more impressive things though like pulling planets and destroying solar systems though :P lol SA Superman. I'm not saying Flash isn't impressive, he can do a lot with his speed etc but he's never punched thru a mountain or Earth like some people may claim. Even if he could do so, not saying he could or couldn't he hasn't yet. That's why I think it's more likely you'll see him one shot a martian or actual character. Superman and Hulk have one shotted a lot of powerful people too. While I know it wasn't canon, even the DC/Marvel crossover, Supes pretty much stomped Hulk and hardly even went all out. Now, Flash vs. Hulk would be more interesting imo
One shotting Zum who is at least = to Supes as Wally said>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Busting a mountain. Wally would stomp Flash any Flash would stomp Hulk.
@DC Zum being equal to Superman is very debatable, they're very similar in terms of powers outside of a few but Superman has greater feats then Zum ultimately.
I'm not denying or saying Hulk would beat Flash(others on here might though) so there I agree.
@Slim, yeah the forces are different. At the same time, you have to go by feats as well being considered in which Superman still has Flash beat there.
@DC Zum being equal to Superman is very debatable, they're very similar in terms of powers outside of a few but Superman has greater feats then Zum ultimately. I'm not denying or saying Hulk would beat Flash(others on here might though) so there I agree. @Slim, yeah the forces are different. At the same time, you have to go by feats as well being considered in which Superman still has Flash beat there.
Can I ask what you are questioning me? I'm not making any kind of claims but revelations that people need to realize between someone like Hulk and Superman. Anything else in my topic I have said it is debatable.
Of course in the Flash vs Superman topic I said Flash can punch harder than Superman but that is not this topic.
Well that's another story, I don't feel Flash can punch harder then Supes given both of their feats so there I'll just respectfully disagree. Otherwise, I agree with the two different scenarios and the whole, that speed vs. strength comes some different scientific calculations.
You know what I loved the most about this post of yours? You've spent some time for all this, haven't you? I simply adored your level of argumentation. I mean you should write a thesis on the physics of comics! (By the way, sounds like an interesting idea...).
There is no PIS. There is a difference between using your entire body to catapult itself as fast as a bullet faster than sound compared to moving limbs as fast as a bullet moving faster than sound. Projecting one self does not require reaction speed unlike the second scan.
There is no PIS. There is a difference between using your entire body to catapult itself as fast as a bullet faster than sound compared to moving limbs as fast as a bullet moving faster than sound. Projecting one self does not require reaction speed unlike the second scan.
He showed he can move his legs and body much faster then sound when he jumped out in the space, and he showed he can move his hands much faster then sound when he trown Fin Fang Foom on the moon.
So only thing that he doesn't have is thinking speed and/or reaction time speed, right?
ove
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