Speed vs Strength, Common MISCONCEPTIONS.

@amseaton:

That's cool pal.

So you're telling me if I drove right by you in a car at 60 MPH and slapped you in the face it wouldn't hurt more than me just slapping you in the face? It would still by the mass of my hand doing the translation.

What he ilikedonuts was saying that mass is also factor, but as I mentioned earlier, the velocity of the object places a larger role in determining the kinetic energy that is imparted because the equation is 1/2mass X velocity squared.

@slimj87d based on the mean segment weights, the average human hand of a male is 0.575% of their total body weight. So, the hand of an average 70kg man moving at 26.8224 meters per second would impart 986.125 joules of energy. Granted, this equation only takes the mass of a moving hand and not the hand, forearm, arm, etc....

@amseaton: I was responding to this statement "Also, this might be a bit weird but havin' really strong legs an' glutes actually makes your punches more powerful. Every real boxer knows that." Nothing more, nothing less.

So you disagree?

@slimj87d: That guy who debated with Bill Nye was a buffoon, taking things way out of context and trying Bill's patience. I can give at least a better argument then that dude.

@captnmcdeadpool: No, just acknowledging the truth...in a slightly aggressive way.

Ah, gotcha.

Like I say, I don't have a problem with physics, math and what not being applied to comic book feats...unless it detracts from the actual feat. I love this reader who wrote in about the Silver Surfer surpassing the speed of light in issue 8 of the Surfer's first run (the actual surpassing of light speed took place in Silver Surfer 6. Notice the reader's comment and Stan Lee's response:

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Classic.

On the other hand, as long as someone isn't trying to disprove a feat or otherwise actually (god forbid) prove a feat in a comic book using real world physics, I don't see the problem. On rare occasions, they actually harmonize. :)

@xlr87t3: if it has anything to do with trying to disprove evolution with no evidence, I'm not interested. Especially not in this thread or this forum.

@captnmcdeadpool said:

@xlr87t3 said:

@captnmcdeadpool: No, just acknowledging the truth...in a slightly aggressive way.

Ah, gotcha.

Like I say, I don't have a problem with physics, math and what not being applied to comic book feats...unless it detracts from the actual feat. I love this reader who wrote in about the Silver Surfer surpassing the speed of light in issue 8 of the Surfer's first run (the actual surpassing of light speed took place in Silver Surfer 6. Notice the reader's comment and Stan Lee's response:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Classic.

On the other hand, as long as someone isn't trying to disprove a feat or otherwise actually (god forbid) prove a feat in a comic book using real world physics, I don't see the problem. On rare occasions, they actually harmonize. :)

That Stan remark is awesome. Thanks for the scan.

@slimj87d: I'm just wanted to clarify things. I'm not going to discuss this here and derail the thread. Please hear me out (or read me out) in another thread.

@green_skaar: Crap. I accidentally pushed "flag"instead of reply. I apologize.

You are most welcome for the scan :)

@slimj87d:

Erm no, I never said that.

Good explanations with Hulk's speed. Well done.

I really liked this

@slimj87d: Nice post.
I agree.

@slimj87d: Nice work. Well done. I do have a few disagreements though

Grizzly Bears are slower than wolves but can run faster than a man. So a Grizzly bear can be 790 lbs., four legged animals are faster than two legged humans. See a Wolf can run faster than a grizzly bear however a wolf can't take down a Grizzly bear. A Cheetah can move and react faster than a lion but a Cheetah can't take down a lion. The Hulk makes greater impacts with his punches than superman does. Then Hulk written with given dense muscles to cause great impact. While a bullet is fast it causes a hole the size of a bullet, so if it was strong it would just pierce and penetrate everything on its path without stopping. While if you were able to shoot a cannon ball the same speed it would cause greater impact or even if you shot a cannon ball slower it would still make a bigger hole than the bullet. The reason because it is bigger, Hulk is allot bigger than superman; his fist is probably bigger than superman. They seem to think superman moving really fast punching something would cause a great impact, maybe a shockwave, but the crater would be small.

I know this is an old post, but I'd like to point out the reason why Superman should punch with greater impacts than Hulk (not using gamma energized punches).

The equation for kinetic energy is

KE = 1/2 * mass * Velocity^2

Mass scales linearly. If you double mass, you 2X KE. If you triple mass, you 3X KE. If you half mass, you half KE.

Speed scales exponentially. If you double speed, you 4X KE. If you triple speed, you 9X KE. Etc.

IMO, Hulk actually does punch rather fast, if he can clap his hands fast enough to create shock waves then he can move them rather quickly. If he can leap and propel himself into orbit, then he can propel his legs at Mach 24, etc. In addition, Hulk can also energize his punches with gamma energy which seems to incinerate matter.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/slimj87d/blog/world-breaker-hulk-the-immortal-iron-hulk/90820/

Good Work , well done

@slimj87d: Well you mean Hulk as fictionally portrayed does or if there existed such a being. Well speed and mass have to work together, still a bullet doesn't cause a big enough impact as a cannon ball. So both bullet and cannonball shot at the same force and speed the cannonball would still make a bigger impact than the bullet. i mean a cannon ball can bring down a wall. Then going more primitive a rock from a sling will not do as much damage as a large rock launched from a catapult. So then you fire a small rock with the catapult the larger rock still causes more damage. So the force or velocity applied to the mass launching it forward?.

I have been out of school for awhile, or been away from things for awhile. I am not good with math so 4x( is this times or this*?)KE ( Kinetic Energy) So kinetic energy is the physical force? It is okay this is interesting. So the Hulk figuratively would be fast as he is strong. Well it is okay I am rarely get comments so it is fine, so it doesn't matter how old it is.

@rollowolf: KE is how much energy an object has while it is in motion.

So let's say you have a bullet and you fire it through some thin Kevlar. If the bullet losses half of its speed after hitting the Kevlar, then that means the Kevlar absorbed 1/2 * mass * (half the initial velocity squared).

@slimj87d: The problem with Hulk punching at massively supersonic speeds is momentum. If his arm is traveling forward at 2000 mph, what is stopping the rest of him being dragged along at 200 mph every time he whiffs a punch? Flash handwaves away this problem with Speed Force, and people with inertia-less, self-powered flight can just use that to brace themselves.

If you are looking for a semi-rigorous physics explanation for why Hulk punches hard, look at force = work / distance. Assuming Hulk's fist is super rigid and non-deformable, the distance value in that equation can get very, very small which means a very, very high force of impact even for modest levels of kinetic energy.

@dasabi:

there's a lot more to the Hulk now a days. Just want to throw this out there.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/slimj87d/blog/world-breaker-hulk-the-immortal-iron-hulk/90820/#comments-block-1453197

@slimj87d: Seems like a false equivalence to conflate Iron Fist's chi to gamma radiation. The former is effectively magic, able to do whatever is convenient for the plot, whereas the latter is a real phenomenon that's well described and well defined by the laws and theories of real life physics.

@dasabi: hmm, I didn't say he was exactly like IF, it was written that way to make the blog interesting. Marvel states he gives off gamma energy PROJECTILE and I justice showed scans of the time he did.

Cool post. It's also interesting to speculate the durability of speedsters. Flash, for example would have insane durability not only for aerodynamics, but for dealing with hairline-fractures (stress-fractures) for running and striking opponents. Our reflex-speed is something around 135 mph; meaning we could strike at that speed, except we have neither the durability nor the stamina to do it without serious harm on the body. Do you know if Barry has any feats of durability or strength?

@ajax24601: Barry does, but I'm more aware of Wally's abilities. He says that the speed force does indeed increase his durability. I'd have to find the scan later, I'm on my phone.

@slimj87d: Cool, man. Thanks for putting time into these threads.

@slimj87d: I see now yes I had to familiarize myself with this formula, this page is about speed vs strength I had to look again.

@rollowolf: It was originally written because people didn't believe that Flash could punch and hurt superman. That was years ago, I think everyone is on the same page now m

SlimJ for Mod!

SlimJ for Mod!

SlimJ for Mod!

@rollowolf:

Comparing a handgun and a cannonball's energy is irrelevant because a handgun traveling at the same speed as a canonball, then it will hit substantially less hard. The pistol bullet has to travel at basically massively hypersonic speeds to match a canonball.

Comparing a punch to any projectile is wrong you guys. A fist remains attached to your body. This means that it remains subject to ground force reaction, as your body itself is still planted on the ground. The mass of the fist is irrelevant and the speed largely is to...it is the weight of the body working in conjuction with the muscles and the ground to simulate effective mass that actually transfers the enrgy of a punch.

Speed multiplies energy and compounds force, but momentum is what serves to dump that energy into a target. Mass is what compounds momentum, and the ground force reaction between your muscles and the floor are what help to simulate effective mass. This is where technique comes into play. A properly executed punch can simulate around 3.5x the bodies mass for use in transferring energy.

That same theory also puts a hard cap on how much momentum can actually be generated...you cannot simulate more mass then the ground can maintain. Even if you could punch at lightspeed, you couldn't effectively transfer all that force...without the ground/force reaction, energy dissipates away from a target on impact. (The loud smacking vs thud when someone is hitting mitts for example. That *smack* is energy not being transferred into the target) And you cannot apply enough force to the ground to generate the kind of momentum needed to transfer essentially infinite energy because the ground itself cannot sustain infinite force acting upon it.

So all these numbers need to be brought WWWAAAYYYY down.

(Yesn I know that speed and mass are directly proportionate, but without a solid frame behind it, that momentum and energy will be dissipated outward when the punch loses speed on impact)

There is a reason why the hardest punchers in the world are HW and not super fast flyweights.

Some people need to read this.

When can somebody understand that if you vibrate your hand at the speed of light you attain infinite MASS. Blame Einstein. Simple Special Relativity.

@slimj87d: perhaps timeforce

Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." This is very simple physics and it does apply because it's nothing too complex.

So it applies because it is a simple concept? Wrong. That discredits this entire post.