#1 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

EDIT: 10-23-2012 Added a reference article on Punching power Strength vs Speed

First, I would like to address people that are anti-Physics. Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." This is very simple physics and it does apply because it's nothing too complex. I am not trying to standardize physics and science into comics, but rather mix them together to explain some key differences to resolve confusion that causes frustration to the battle vets here.

PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER READING IF YOU STILL THINK I'M TRYING TO STANDARDIZE SCIENCE INTO COMICS! I AM NOT.

Now let me begin.

Strength

A common misconception in the battle boards is that someone who can lift 100 tons is surely able to punch buildings apart. This is not always true because:

1. Force relies on acceleration and mass.

2. Impact, a integral of force also relies on velocity.

Therefore someone that can lift as much as Superman but doesn't move nearly as fast as Superman cannot punch nearly as hard as Superman. They can lift and grapple as strong as Superman could but they cannot punch as hard as him. Or cause impacts as devastating as him.

But wait, it's not over. Why are super strong characters shown to punch hard? Well there are a number of reasons why:

3. Their muscles and bones are more dense than the material they are hitting. Therefore their limbs do not brake when throwing a haymaker at a wall. If you punched a wall as hard as you could, a lot of the force would transfer back into your bones and brake them. This can significantly lower the amount of force you are trying to deliver to the wall.

4. Their muscles, bones and tendons support their small size so much that they are capable of delivering all their mass into their punches because they know their bone is not going to brake.

5. Their muscles, bones and tendons are probably strong enough to accelerate their mass instantly. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are FTL, it's just that with their stronger and more dense body allows them to throw a snapping like motion better than a normal humans. Therefore I am no contradicting myself from 1-2.

So in summary, this gives a good reason why characters like Luke Cage, Hulk or Max Damage are capable of delivering heavy blows without being much faster than an Olympic athlete.

From this, two arguements can actually be made:

6. This is exactly why the Hulk can never beat Superman.

or

7. The Hulk actually does move at higher speeds than we think (but no where near speedsters). With the amount of lean muscles the Hulk has, and his muscles he can surely snap and throw his weight quickly. This can be a reason why he's capable of keeping up with some faster people like the Sentry. This is just a theory, you guys can discuss it.

Speed

Now it's time to tune into the Flashes. The Flashse abilities allow them to move at ultra high speeds, faster than even Superman. Thanks tot eh speed force, their durability is increased to sustain themselves when moving at super high speeds. Does this mean that the Flash can thunderclap stronger than the Hulk? Or they can even punch with greater impacts than Superman himself? The answer is yes.

Thunder clapping: Essentially they are sonic booms caused by high impacts. I explained what influences great impacts already.

Therefore the Flash theoretically would probably be able to Thunderclap with much more devastation than the Hulk and Juggernaut. An example is how Zoom (whose powers works differently but similarly than the Flashes) causes devastating sonic booms from just clicking his fingers.

Incredible speed

Thus, Zoom and Flash can most likely thunderclap better than Juggernaut and Hulk can. Other scans show them punching each other and with each punch causes a sonic boom.

Potentially Punching Harder than Superman

This is assuming that Flash is much faster than Superman. Some people debate that he isn't much faster, but from what I have seen he is MUCH FASER than Superman. Thanks to the Speed force in increasing his durability to sustain his fast speeds, he can also punch with greater impacts than Superman if he punches much faster than him. Mass is almost negligible since they weight very close tot eh same ( Superman @ 225 lbs, Wally @ 190 lbs). Durability during the punch is also very close thanks to the Flash and his Speed force aura. We don't see the Flashes deliver their devastating punch, but what happens when they do? An IMP.

And here Flash explains with physics that his punches moving at the speed of light is equal to a white dwarf star. "Physics 101. The faster an object moves , the more mass it attains, at light speed, my fist hits like a white dwarf star."

Although Zoom is faster than Flash, Flash is still Faster than Superman. Punches at light speeds do hurt Johnny!

Diana trying to claim she is as fast as Zoom... is a matter of her own opinion. Surely, she is not.

That's it for now! Thank you for reading. I may add more.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Update: March 17, 2012-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Hulk's speed

The proposal

Here I wanted to discuss how fast the Hulk is. I would like to hear some feedback. Often times we wonder how the Hulk manages to go toe to toe with enemies who have marginal speed advantages over him. Enemies such as the Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc. The first and foremost response we hear from users around here is that it is obvious plot/writer/artist induced stupidity [PIS, WIS and AIS (PWA)]. My proposal is that the Hulk isn't at a speed disadvantage but rather his reflexes and mind set are not on par with speedsters. This proposal sets a means for consistency rather than we claim PWA all the time. Now to further ado, I give scans for us to discuss.

The Evidence

Hulk performs a Thunderclap with such force, the pressure from the sonic boom sends cars and people (through concrete walls) flying:

The amount of speed Hulk would require would be dozens that of the speed of sound. There is absolutely no way someone of the Hulk's stature can perform such a feat moving at normal or even 10 to 100 times faster. It would have to be tremendous. It is absolutely impossible for the Hulk to perform a feat with strength alone.

The Hulk leaps to escape velocity:

For an object to escape the earths atmoshphere, it must have an initial velocity of Mach 34. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity. For Hulk to perform such a feat, his legs would have to accelerate and propel someone of his weight, which is approximately 2000 pounds, at even greater speeds than so. It is absolutely impossible for the Hulk to perform a feat with strength alone.

Objects to the moon:

Back to escape velocity. Fin Fang Foom weighs 40,000 lbs (20 tons). The Hulk's arm would have to propel Fin Fang Foom at those speeds in order to make him escape. Fin Fang Foom actually ended up on the moon which is much further than just escaping the earths atmosphere. Much like a baseball pitchers arm swinging at the same speed he releases the ball, the Hulk's arm would have to be moving at much greater speeds than so. There is absolutely no way the Hulk could have performed such a feat with strength alone.

The Reason (then why does the Hulk have difficulties tagging street levelers at times)

So if the Hulk is so fast, why does he have such difficulty tagging street leveler fighters with great dodging ability such as the Captain America, Spider-man, etc? Part of your answer is that they are great at dodging. How often are they hit with bullets? Not quite often. The other part is the Hulk lacks the ability to speed up his thought process and mindset in addition to his reflexes possibly being a few magnitudes above average. The Hulk's powers stem from being physically amped. His powers do not affect his mindset. A great example would be how Superman and the Flash whom are capable of such feats. Here is a scan.

So what is the excuse? Why is it not PAW when the Hulk fights foes such as the Sentry?

This is a fairly simple answer. It's because the Sentry who we all know moves at extreme super speed with a sped up mindset (collects multiple I-Beams and builds a structure within a matter of seconds) has chose to downplay his mindset to Hulk's levels. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to have a conversation. If Sentry's mindset was sped up to super speeds, he wouldn't be able to understand a word the Hulk said along with Hulk not being capable of understanding a word the Sentry said. This is the sole reason why the Hulk and Sentry and trading blows near evenly due to their mindsets being at the same pace.

Superman, Black Adam and others can battle at FTL

Yes, Superman flew her to the sun at FTL, but guess what, Superman CAN'T battle at FTL.

Read this scan where it describes what happens to Superman's mindset.

His mind is left behind as he flies at FTL. Therefore he does not think or battle at FTL. He's faster than a bullet, yes. But what happens when 100s of bullets are fired?

So how fast can the man of steel move his limbs?

How fast is Superman? Sure he can fly at faster than light (FTL), but can he actually move his body at such speeds?

By speculation maybe he can. But from what we have seen, he cannot. Not like the Flash has.

First I will address this notorious scan of Superman chasing Wally.

People try and use this scan and the calculation above to show that they are running FTL. Now they misinterpret the scan and ignore all the narration and dialogue that Wally states before he approximates his calculation. He says that if he steals Superman's speed and turns him into a statue like he did to inertia, then it the speed and momentum they are moving at would make it so like he is moving much faster than FTL. Don't believe me, I have more evidence.

This is Superman running after Flash, people have used this scan to try and say Superman easily runs at light speed. He is not flying and using his biosphere. Therefore lets accept that he is using his superspeed with his limbs. Look at his facial expression, he is struggling to catch the Flash while the Flash barely seems to exert himself. Now how fast are they actually moving? Here is the scan that people FAIL to post when they are claiming FTL again.

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

There you go, he can probably run and sprint at around the same level as Black Adam. Someone that can run his legs at Mach 500. Superman has never outperformed Black Adam in speed or moved so fast that Black Adam couldn't see or deal with his speed. He would have to outperform Black Adam at a magnitude of 880000/500 (Light speed is about Mach 880000) in order to be light speed and no way in hell Superman is that much faster than Back Adam.

Conclusion

The Hulk has performed some remarkable feats. Often times it is the common misconception that his feats are performed with strength alone and there is in no way, shape or form that his feats required any sign of super speed. We have blamed plot/writer/artist induced stupidity (PAW) for story lines that involve Hulk going toe to toe with foes who are considered speedsters in their own right. My purpose for this post was to rather than blame PAW, there should be consistency. By taking the time to properly analyze these scans, it is evident that the Hulk does move his limbs at great speeds greater than sound. He just lacks the speedster mindset to control them on levels such as Superman, Flash, Silver Surfer, etc.

Sources

Why lifting weights won't increase punching power:

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

"Lifting weights is a pushing motion. Punching is a snapping motion"

"So how DO you punch?

I won’t go into specifics right now but here are some simple concepts:

  1. Punching power (damage caused) = acceleration (hand speed) x force (muscle strength & body weight)
  2. You punch harder by using committing more speed and more force."

" An explosive punch is 99.99% snap, and 0.01% push."

#2 Posted by cattlebattle (12579 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post, 2 things though

Comics pretty much throw physics out the window

Hulk is deceptively fast for his size.....according to some writers.

Colossus for instance--should move as slow as sh*t, being he's made of metal and all. Yet he's capable of various acrobatic feats

#3 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
" Great post, 2 things thoughComics pretty much throw physics out the windowHulk is deceptively fast for his size.....according to some writers.Colossus for instance--should move as slow as sh*t, being he's made of metal and all. Yet he's capable of various acrobatic feats "
Yeah, that's why I made an open argument that the Hulk actually does move a lot faster than we think he does. Like the time he went toe to toe with the Sentry.

I could actually solve how fast his legs are actually moving to spring his massive size miles up into the air. This would relate to how fast we as humans can move our arms, very similar to how fast we can thrust our legs. This would prove that the Hulk actually punches at variable amounts of speeds greater than an ordinary human. But I'm really lazy now. Thanks for reading and I like your insight. I greatly appreciate it.
#4 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio


  
#5 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit:  Hey man, I couldn't have done it without you!
#6 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" @Cypher's Gambit:  Hey man, I couldn't have done it without you! "
Really? Wow, I didn't even know lol. But what I did know is that while I was reading your post, your words were in complete sync with the music I was listening to. (I had your thread and my thread open at the same time) And it fit together really good. And THAT my friend, combined with the logic you put behind it makes it a 5 star post! lol


  


#7 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit: Haha, I'm sure you have also seen the video of when "2 Falcon punches collide."
#8 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" @Cypher's Gambit: Haha, I'm sure you have also seen the video of when "2 Falcon punches collide." "
Actually I haven't yet, but I almost cried while reading your post because the music gave it so much emphasis. And for every snare of the beat of the music, I could picture Juggernaut, Hulk and Zoom clapping their hands and snapping their fingers creating a huge shockwave that can destroy the Earth. XD
#9 Edited by PowerHerc (80842 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice thread.

Strength does not equal punching power, stamina or fighting skill.

F = m x a (Force = mass x acceleration).

This means, in terms of punching power; how fast (acceleration) you can put your weight (mass) behind your punch is more important than how much weight you can lift (strength) in determining how hard (force) you will strike/hit your target.

#10 Posted by cattlebattle (12579 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc said:
"


Nice thread. 

Strength does equal punching power, stamina or fighting skill. 

 

F = m x a (Force = mass x acceleration). 

This means, in terms of punching power; how fast (acceleration) you can put your weight (mass) behind your punch is more important than how much weight you can lift (strength) in determining how hard (force) you will strike/hit your target.

"
Yes... this is why Boxers train to be fast more than anything else.
#11 Posted by PowerHerc (80842 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle:
Yep.  They train to increase/hone their hand-speed and the ability to "snap" their punches like the cracking of a whip.
#12 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
" @PowerHerc said:
"


Nice thread. 

Strength does equal punching power, stamina or fighting skill. 

 

F = m x a (Force = mass x acceleration). 

This means, in terms of punching power; how fast (acceleration) you can put your weight (mass) behind your punch is more important than how much weight you can lift (strength) in determining how hard (force) you will strike/hit your target.

"
Yes... this is why Boxers train to be fast more than anything else. "
Yes, but has anyone ever gotten hit by a 5 mile per hour truck?
I think a 5 mile per hour bullet hurts more than one with high velocity.
#13 Posted by PowerHerc (80842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cypher's Gambit:
Well, even though the speed of the truck is relatively low, it's mass is so great that even 5 mph of acceleration creates a lot of force and thus a very hard impact.  The formula holds up.

As for a 5 mile per hour bullet hurting more than one with high velocity (presumably one fired from a gun); I highly doubt it.  The mass of a bullet is so small that if it hit you at 5 mph, it would probably not hurt that much.  Think about it;  5 miles per hour is so damn slow for a thrown object.  However a bullet fired from a gun, because of it's small mass, might not cause a lot of pain upon impact, but it would surely do more damage than one traveling at 5 mph. 

 

So I guess I'm trying to say that a large object (lots of mass) can still generate a lot of force and so can an object of low mass if accelerating fast enough.  How much pain would be generated isn't part of the equation and cannot be scientifically quantified because every body's perception of pain is different.  

A person getting hit by a truck moving at 5 mph may or may not get hurt, but the person will be moved by the trucks superior mass despite it's low acceleration.  A person hit by a 5 mph bullet may or may not be hurt (depending on where he/she gets hit) but will not be forced to move by the force of the bullet.  A person hit by a bullet fired from a gun will almost certainly be wounded and hurt, though he/she won't necessarily be physically moved by the force of impact. 

Force = mass times acceleration.  Pain may or may not coincide with the application of force but there is not an automatic correlation between the two. 

#14 Posted by Supreme Cosmic (764 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:

This is the first time I read an entire long OP and wished that the poster add more. Great read. Although I  think you are going to deep with the physics. The authors are writing things in relation to how scientifically knowledgeable they believe their readers are. It is no secret that in the past they wrote  a bunch of nonsense that had to be re-explained, re-imagined, or simply drastically changed for our time. The question is where do we stand now? Well. we won't buy everything but writers know they don't have to be scientifically accurate cause not many know what you said and many that do, do not easily connect it to the comics that they read so do not expect DC or marvel to hire physicists to write their stories just yet
#15 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio

This is basic. However, some people on comicvine are retarded dumbasses.
#16 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Cosmic said: 

@SlimJ87D: 
This is the first time I read an entire long OP and wished that the poster add more. Great read. Although I  think you are going to deep with the physics. The authors are writing things in relation to how scientifically knowledgeable they believe their readers are. It is no secret that in the past they wrote  a bunch of nonsense that had to be re-explained, re-imagined, or simply drastically changed for our time. The question is where do we stand now? Well. we won't buy everything but writers know they don't have to be scientifically accurate cause not many know what you said and many that do, do not easily connect it to the comics that they read so do not expect DC or marvel to hire physicists to write their stories just yet "

Yeah, I understand that authors ignore science for good reason. But portions of my topic is to theorize how heavy hitters with low speed can deliver such impacts. I also just wanted to open this light in the debate topics for comparisons between the Flash, Hulk and Superman. People don't understand how the Flash can perform his IMPs and a lot of people are in disbelief that he can punch as hard as superman.

Again, I appreciate everyones input here. I have some updates planned out. 
#17 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
"

                    @Supreme Cosmic said: 

@SlimJ87D: 
This is the first time I read an entire long OP and wished that the poster add more. Great read. Although I  think you are going to deep with the physics. The authors are writing things in relation to how scientifically knowledgeable they believe their readers are. It is no secret that in the past they wrote  a bunch of nonsense that had to be re-explained, re-imagined, or simply drastically changed for our time. The question is where do we stand now? Well. we won't buy everything but writers know they don't have to be scientifically accurate cause not many know what you said and many that do, do not easily connect it to the comics that they read so do not expect DC or marvel to hire physicists to write their stories just yet "

Yeah, I understand that authors ignore science for good reason. But portions of my topic is to theorize how heavy hitters with low speed can deliver such impacts. I also just wanted to open this light in the debate topics for comparisons between the Flash, Hulk and Superman. People don't understand how the Flash can perform his IMPs and a lot of people are in disbelief that he can punch as hard as superman.

Again, I appreciate everyones input here. I have some updates planned out. 


                   

                "

Hulk has strength >= Superman. Flash can't IMP because infinite is practically impossible for him and if he actually shown a real IMP, then the entire comicverse is destroyed
#18 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo said:
" @SlimJ87D said:
"

                    @Supreme Cosmic said: 

@SlimJ87D: 
This is the first time I read an entire long OP and wished that the poster add more. Great read. Although I  think you are going to deep with the physics. The authors are writing things in relation to how scientifically knowledgeable they believe their readers are. It is no secret that in the past they wrote  a bunch of nonsense that had to be re-explained, re-imagined, or simply drastically changed for our time. The question is where do we stand now? Well. we won't buy everything but writers know they don't have to be scientifically accurate cause not many know what you said and many that do, do not easily connect it to the comics that they read so do not expect DC or marvel to hire physicists to write their stories just yet "

Yeah, I understand that authors ignore science for good reason. But portions of my topic is to theorize how heavy hitters with low speed can deliver such impacts. I also just wanted to open this light in the debate topics for comparisons between the Flash, Hulk and Superman. People don't understand how the Flash can perform his IMPs and a lot of people are in disbelief that he can punch as hard as superman.

Again, I appreciate everyones input here. I have some updates planned out. 


                   

                "
Hulk has strength >= Superman. Flash can't IMP because infinite is practically impossible for him and if he actually shown a real IMP, then the entire comicverse is destroyed "
The IMP is just a saying. Kinda like how everyone in Street Fighter has a name for them moves. If Flash was in street fighter he'd scream IMP for his super haha. Or INNNNFFFFINNNITI MAAAASSSS PUNCH! 

Followed by a KAPOW. 
#19 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc said:
" @cattlebattle: Yep.  They train to increase/hone their hand-speed and the ability to "snap" their punches like the cracking of a whip. "
This is something i can attest to, as i boxed for many years of my life, i was listed in the heavyweight divisions( pro-am only, never went full on pro)  I was not the fastest puncher, but i would always train to be faster, however the mass and muscles of my arms were large, and i could land very heavy hard blows, at lower speeds, but this can lead to becoming punch drunk, if you rely on it all the time (which sucks) but like you said

@PowerHerc
said:
"

@Cypher's Gambit:
Well, even though the speed of the truck is relatively low, it's mass is so great that even 5 mph of acceleration creates a lot of force and thus a very hard impact.  The formula holds up.

As for a 5 mile per hour bullet hurting more than one with high velocity (presumably one fired from a gun); I highly doubt it.  The mass of a bullet is so small that if it hit you at 5 mph, it would probably not hurt that much.  Think about it;  5 miles per hour is so damn slow for a thrown object.  However a bullet fired from a gun, because of it's small mass, might not cause a lot of pain upon impact, but it would surely do more damage than one traveling at 5 mph. 

 

So I guess I'm trying to say that a large object (lots of mass) can still generate a lot of force and so can an object of low mass if accelerating fast enough.  How much pain would be generated isn't part of the equation and cannot be scientifically quantified because every body's perception of pain is different.  

A person getting hit by a truck moving at 5 mph may or may not get hurt, but the person will be moved by the trucks superior mass despite it's low acceleration.  A person hit by a 5 mph bullet may or may not be hurt (depending on where he/she gets hit) but will not be forced to move by the force of the bullet.  A person hit by a bullet fired from a gun will almost certainly be wounded and hurt, though he/she won't necessarily be physically moved by the force of impact. 

Force = mass times acceleration.  Pain may or may not coincide with the application of force but there is not an automatic correlation between the two. 

"
During catchweight fights( ones where neither man is in the correct weight for the match)  you get drastic mismatches of speed and strength, however most times the mass of the fighters were close.  9 out 10 fights are won by the faster guy, unless, like myself, you could weather the punches for the whole fight and just counter punch for every shot ( again not a good tactic, it takes one hell of toll on you)
 
So the whole reason i believe superman would beat the flash, who is faster, is superman can weather the punches. Now if hulk moved at the same or close to superman's speed, he could beat him, it would be like the doomsday fight.
#20 Edited by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:

"

                    @Susanoo said:

"

                    @SlimJ87D said:
"

                   

@Supreme Cosmic

 said: 

@SlimJ87D: 
This is the first time I read an entire long OP and wished that the poster add more. Great read. Although I  think you are going to deep with the physics. The authors are writing things in relation to how scientifically knowledgeable they believe their readers are. It is no secret that in the past they wrote  a bunch of nonsense that had to be re-explained, re-imagined, or simply drastically changed for our time. The question is where do we stand now? Well. we won't buy everything but writers know they don't have to be scientifically accurate cause not many know what you said and many that do, do not easily connect it to the comics that they read so do not expect DC or marvel to hire physicists to write their stories just yet "

Yeah, I understand that authors ignore science for good reason. But portions of my topic is to theorize how heavy hitters with low speed can deliver such impacts. I also just wanted to open this light in the debate topics for comparisons between the Flash, Hulk and Superman. People don't understand how the Flash can perform his IMPs and a lot of people are in disbelief that he can punch as hard as superman.
Again, I appreciate everyones input here. I have some updates planned out. 


                   

                "
Hulk has strength >= Superman. Flash can't IMP because infinite is practically impossible for him and if he actually shown a real IMP, then the entire comicverse is destroyed

                   

                "
The IMP is just a saying. Kinda like how everyone in Street Fighter has a name for them moves. If Flash was in street fighter he'd scream IMP for his super haha. Or INNNNFFFFINNNITI MAAAASSSS PUNCH! 
Followed by a KAPOW. 


                   

                "

Yeah. Pretty much that. Hulk was shot out of a cannon/rocket and destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth (If people have a brain, circumference and diameter makes it more than 2x also considering density and mass). If Hulk can fly as fast as Superman, he can easily duplicate Supe's strength feats or go even further.
#21 Edited by Freefa11 (2335 posts) - - Show Bio

If we say Hulk can jump 3 miles straight up, and if we assume it takes him, say, a half second to fully extend his legs when leaping off the ground, he would need an initial velocity of around 688 mph to reach said height, meaning he would be accelerating himself around 615 m/s^2, or almost 65 g's. However, this is ignoring wind resistance, which will have a noticeable effect over that long a distance, so the actual needed velocity would be higher than that. I also don't know what his actual maximum jump height is, I just know it is in the miles, and I don't know how long it takes him to spring off the ground.
I'll comment more later when I have time to go a little in depth on this.

#22 Edited by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo:
 (If people have a brain, i like the statement you make, people have them, the proper use of them however is whole other story, people in general also do not like to change there ways of thinking, but i agree with you Susanoo
#23 Posted by The Sadhu (853 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post! Makes for an interesting read!
#24 Edited by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@Freefa11:  the hulk has leaped past our atmosphere into space, however was unable to reach escape velocity 





Sorry i put them in backwards, page 4 is the bottom scan, page five is the top scan
Hulk wanted the moon
#25 Posted by Obtrusive (1640 posts) - - Show Bio

why just one sound barrier broken in a punch?  If flash is punching at near light speed as stated he would be breaking multiple sound barriers.

#26 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@Obtrusive:  i think it because of the barrier of the speed force itself, could be wrong, but it could alter how there bodies react with air molecules, thus negating the opposing forces
#27 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Freefa11: 
@crackerjack82: 

@Susanoo:


 This is from my previous post:

" Yeah, that's why I made an open argument that the Hulk actually does move a lot faster than we think he does. Like the time he went toe to toe with the Sentry.

I could actually solve how fast his legs are actually moving to spring his massive size miles up into the air. This would relate to how fast we as humans can move our arms, very similar to how fast we can thrust our legs. This would prove that the Hulk actually punches at variable amounts of speeds greater than an ordinary human. But I'm really lazy now. Thanks for reading and I like your insight. I greatly appreciate it."

@Freefa11 said:

" If we say Hulk can jump 3 miles straight up, and if we assume it takes him, say, a half second to fully extend his legs when leaping off the ground, he would need an initial velocity of around 688 mph to reach said height, meaning he would be accelerating himself around 615 m/s^2, or almost 65 g's. However, this is ignoring wind resistance, which will have a noticeable effect over that long a distance, so the actual needed velocity would be higher than that. I also don't know what his actual maximum jump height is, I just know it is in the miles, and I don't know how long it takes him to spring off the ground. I'll comment more later when I have time to go a little in depth on this. "

I really like your post here. I was going to use projectile motion to find his acceleration from his legs, knowing the final distance and initial distance to obtain Hulk's acceleration. This isn't as easy to do since we do not know time. We can make an estimate though. Then that would give us a reasonable estimate of how quickly he could move his arms and legs. Thus it would prove that Hulk does fight and move at pretty high speeds (maybe not at speedster levels) but pretty damn fast.

Well this is our chance. I'll use those scans you guys posted up. I need to go to sleep now, but if you guys want to write up a nice little portion that shows how quickly Hulk actually moves his limbs, I throw it in with my first post with full credit to you guys.

If not, I'll get around to it tomorrow. Good night my fellow comic geeks- I mean friends. 
#28 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: 

 

 

 Good night my fellow comic geeks- I mean friends.                                    

                                    

............. uh huh

 

 

 

 

 

 

#29 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not trying to be rude to the op but I think this is about pointless.  Let's take the speedsters for example (excluding flash for the moment) a lot of them don't  have any super strength, durability, healing, auras, etc.  So them moving ultra fast and hitting someone like they do in the comics should pretty much break every single bone in there body.  Them gettting shot by a 9mm should be about as bad as getting hit by a shotgun at close range depending on fast they move.  Them tripping and falling while they are running at superspeed should be about 10x worse than being in a high speed motorcycle accident.  The bones, ligments, and muscles should be completely destroyed everytime they run as fast as they can.  In short the whole superspeed thing is BS because they would die just doing it without being completely superhuman.  Hell I didn't even get into windburn in my post.        
#30 Posted by alcoholbob (1191 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" First, I would like to address people that are anti-Physics. Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." 
This is mainly one of the cop-outs used when people start losing arguments on the Vine. Usually I just take it as a save-face concession.
#31 Posted by TheCerealKillz (10266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit: 
#32 Posted by virgin4life (428 posts) - - Show Bio

comics dont listen to physics unless its convenient (close thread)

#33 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984: 
@virgin4life: 

See, I don't think you guys actually read or if you did you guys didn't fully understand the reason why I wrote everything I did. Both of you guys are new here and will soon run into or cause stirs and confusion in threads mainly to do with the Flashes. This thread is meant to save the newbies in Flash vs threads.

It explains why Hulk can't beat Superman unless if Superman decides to possibly grapple with him, why Flash IMPs can potentially be stronger than a blow from Superman. I give a reasonable explanation of each scenario that makes sense even comic book wise. I've shown feats from Zoom and Flash that even suggest how just being fast can grant you great impacts. I expected criticism in this topic, but I'm more surprised to see that I have more people here that understand and agree than disagree. 

Even though you guys disagree, thanks for reading. 
#34 Posted by Jayso4201 (594 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Post!
#35 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio
@Obtrusive said:
" why just one sound barrier broken in a punch?  If flash is punching at near light speed as stated he would be breaking multiple sound barriers. "
Numerous writers have stated that the Speed Force allows all of the Flashes to ignore physics.
#36 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D: Excellent post. 

This should be Comicvine standard.
#37 Posted by whacknasty (5600 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" @Susanoo said:
" @SlimJ87D said:
"
everyone in Street Fighter has a name for them moves. If Flash was in street fighter he'd scream IMP for his super haha. Or INNNNFFFFINNNITI MAAAASSSS PUNCH! 

Followed by a KAPOW. 
"
LOL.

Good posts though. Makes some of it a little easier to understand...other than that darn Speed Force...lol.
#38 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3443 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCerealKillz said:
" @Cypher's Gambit: 
"
Great post!  
#39 Posted by karrob (4274 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @SlimJ87D: Excellent post. 

This should be Comicvine standard.
"
#40 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" @cody1984: 
@virgin4life: 

See, I don't think you guys actually read or if you did you guys didn't fully understand the reason why I wrote everything I did. Both of you guys are new here and will soon run into or cause stirs and confusion in threads mainly to do with the Flashes. This thread is meant to save the newbies in Flash vs threads.

It explains why Hulk can't beat Superman unless if Superman decides to possibly grapple with him, why Flash IMPs can potentially be stronger than a blow from Superman. I give a reasonable explanation of each scenario that makes sense even comic book wise. I've shown feats from Zoom and Flash that even suggest how just being fast can grant you great impacts. I expected criticism in this topic, but I'm more surprised to see that I have more people here that understand and agree than disagree. 

Even though you guys disagree, thanks for reading. 
"


Apparently you didn't understand anything I wrote.  I stated simply that most speedsters are just supposed to be super fast not super strong, durable, stamina, etc.  So them running 900mph and hitting someone as hard as they could in the face should shatter there hand like its nothing.  Since the whole topic is called Speed vs Strength, Common MISCONCEPTIONS  and not why flash should hit as hard or harder than then the hulk is why I wrote that. 

#41 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

" @SlimJ87D said:

" @cody1984: 

@virgin4life:

 


See, I don't think you guys actually read or if you did you guys didn't fully understand the reason why I wrote everything I did. Both of you guys are new here and will soon run into or cause stirs and confusion in threads mainly to do with the Flashes. This thread is meant to save the newbies in Flash vs threads.

It explains why Hulk can't beat Superman unless if Superman decides to possibly grapple with him, why Flash IMPs can potentially be stronger than a blow from Superman. I give a reasonable explanation of each scenario that makes sense even comic book wise. I've shown feats from Zoom and Flash that even suggest how just being fast can grant you great impacts. I expected criticism in this topic, but I'm more surprised to see that I have more people here that understand and agree than disagree. 

Even though you guys disagree, thanks for reading. 
"


Apparently you didn't understand anything I wrote.  I stated simply that most speedsters are just supposed to be super fast not super strong, durable, stamina, etc.  So them running 900mph and hitting someone as hard as they could in the face should shatter there hand like its nothing.  Since the whole topic is called Speed vs Strength, Common MISCONCEPTIONS  and not why flash should hit as hard or harder than then the hulk is why I wrote that. 

"
I read that. I didn't want to bother to address it because if anyone thinks about it there's a simple explanation.
If they were able to run at those speeds without being burned or getting foot blisters than it's obvious that they are more durable than normal humans. In all of DC, most speedsters are connected to the speed force, so that solves that. If not, then they most of the time move fast thanks to magic or even their own biometric field charged by some kind of energy like Superman.

For Marvel, this is a little trickier, but someone like quick silver is a mutant. We don't know what his mutation did to his body but he's capable of moving at great speeds without getting foot blisters. That is reason enough to believe he is more durable than a normal human. 

This is referenced from many different handbooks

"  Pietro's body is adapted towards the rigors of high-speed running. His cardiovascular and respiratory systems are many times more efficient than those of a normal human being. He metabolizes an estimated 95% of the caloric energy content of foodstuffs (normal humans use about 25%). The chemical processes of Quicksilver's musculature are so highly enhanced that his body does not generate fatigue poisons, the normal by-products of locomotion, which force the body to rest. Rather, his body constantly expels waste products during his accelerated respiration through exhalation. His joints are smoother and lubricated more efficiently than those of a normal human being. His tendons have the tensile strength of spring steel. His bones contain unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds a human could never achieve or withstand. ..." and etc...


From  
  1.  X-Factor: The Quick and the Dead
  2. http://marvel.com/universe/Quicksilver
  3.  X-Factor: The Quick and the Dead
  4.  Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z #9

There are a few more handbooks I'd have to research, like the X-Men specific handbooks.
When and if I have a chance, I'll grab my handbooks and do some good references and explain why speedsters without speedforce do what they do. 
#42 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1656 posts) - - Show Bio

First, I would like to address people that are anti-Physics. Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." This is very simple physics and it does apply because it's nothing too complex. Now let me begin.

   

 

From the beginning this doesn't work , what logic is that based on seriously ?

 

You say ""its comics,science doesn not aplly"" and its fine if you aknowledge people who say that but to say its wrong because "It does apply because it's nothing to complex" yeah the formula for finding force isn't complex but just because its not complex doesn't mean its auotomatically valid , the very fact that Hulk has powers shows s that (marvel at least) comics don't follow our world's science therefore(simple or complex) our world's science is not applicable unless used  in a (again marvel) comic , if that particular part of science is used in the comic universe we know that that part at least is applicable , but unless it is stated otherwise our physics is NOT applicable in comics

#43 Edited by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:

"

First, I would like to address people that are anti-Physics. Please don't start with the "it's comics, science does not apply." This is very simple physics and it does apply because it's nothing too complex. Now let me begin.

   

 

From the beginning this doesn't work , what logic is that based on seriously ?

 

You say ""its comics,science doesn not aplly"" and its fine if you aknowledge people who say that but to say its wrong because "It does apply because it's nothing to complex" yeah the formula for finding force isn't complex but just because its not complex doesn't mean its auotomatically valid , the very fact that Hulk has powers shows s that (marvel at least) comics don't follow our world's science therefore(simple or complex) our world's science is not applicable unless used  in a (again marvel) comic , if that particular part of science is used in the comic universe we know that that part at least is applicable , but unless it is stated otherwise our physics is NOT applicable in comics

"
A very few of you guys are missing the point here.
I am not saying that science should be used for comics, but in these battle boards it's pretty common sense why the Hulk can't go up against Superman.

1. He's not fast as Superman
2. Because he's not fast as Superman he can't deal blows as hard as Superman. 

Next is Flash. I explain how the IMP works and Zooms sonic booms. They happened in the comics for a reason, I give a good background why they happened. People on these boards don't understand why the Flash punches so hard. 

I'm glad there are more people in this thread that understand the point of why I wrote this topic than the people that don't get it. But the people that don't understand are the ones that cause frustration on these boards and poor arguments as to why Superman beats Flash without BFR. 
#44 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:   well this topic is going a wee bit off point, this is a great topic by the way, but no matter how u slice it Science applies in comics, just not in the same fashion it applies in Real life, and yes comics have used pseudo-science, to explain and create characters I.E. the gamma powered hulk. we know( i assuming you all do) that gamma radiation, destroys all living cells.
Beings such as iron man, steel, metalo and ultron, all exists because of science,and now more than ever our technology is moving closer to the fictional technology that allows them to exists 
 Now in  the world of comics it works in a hypothetical sense but it is still based in scientific theory. Captain Atom and wonder man are a great characters created by quantum theories, that one could exists as pure energy, and their interaction with the world at large, is solely based in the Hypothetical sense, that this could happen. 

Speedsters work inside that realm of scientific thought. "If this altered this, could it not alter this and create that, and thus negate known physics"


No matter what Science and Comics coincide with one another, it is just that we cannot apply our conceived notion, of scientific fact into a hypothetical world
#45 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82: Hmmm, Cracker Jack... I might use that name one of these days. You got jacked. 
#46 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:   lol thanks for the laugh

crackerjack, often intimated never bettered. kidding really enjoying this tread
#47 Posted by The Stegman (22798 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit: 

'Deep Impact" giggety
#48 Posted by TheCerealKillz (10266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: 
There would be like 500 posts on comic vine XD
#49 Posted by ultimatewarrior123 (1374 posts) - - Show Bio


This is interesting, as I recall the hulk destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth, when accelerated to a high velocity.

 

However, Hulk loses to superman because he is not as strong as superman, superman has moved the earth and so is about 4 or 5 orders ahead of hulk feat wise. Hulk at best has been in battles where the force of 100 trillion tonnes. Addmittedly I don't like the use of pushing planets as feats because I can't think of any scenario in which hulk has a huge piece of rope to tug the earth.

 

 

#50 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio
@ultimatewarrior123:
 
Technically, superman wasn't pulling the weight of the earth he was, working against the gravitational pull that sun holds on the earth, they are vastly different, but i am talking from a scientific standpoint. it is a very very cool feat.