Sonny (I Robot) vs Marcus Wright (T4)

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CapitolPunishment

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#1  Edited By CapitolPunishment

Marcus is sent back in time to stop sky-net. 
 
When he arrives he believes that Sonny is the AI responsible for creating Skynet and plans to take him out. While searching for Sonny Marcus comes across Will Smith in the lab at 8:00am and brutally murders him with his bare hands. At around 9:00am Sonny returns to the lab and finds the corpse and he is deeply angered. He then watches the surveillance video and gains knowledge on who killed his friend. At the end of the video Marcus looks into the camera and tells Sonny to meet him in Central Park at midnight so he can finish what he came here for.
 
Sonny has 15 hours of prep, Marcus has just a few minutes more. Neither have any detailed knowledge of each other, just what was seen of each other on surveillance cameras.
 
Battle starts 100 feet apart, pure H2H, to the death.
 

 Marcus Wright
 Marcus Wright
VS.
 
 The middle guy is Sonny
 The middle guy is Sonny
Who wins and why?
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CapitolPunishment

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#2  Edited By CapitolPunishment

somehow it duped, lock the other one lol.

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utotheg38

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#3  Edited By utotheg38

lol T4

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cattlebattle

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#4  Edited By cattlebattle
The middle guy is Sonny
 
LOL, thanks, I needed help with that one
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k4tzm4n

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#5  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

Unless Sonny brings some major technology with his prep, Marcus seemed more durable.  Sonny displayed better agility, but Marcus was quite skilled in close range (vs the thugs, for example) and rather brutal.  I think his durability allows him to take the extra hits before landing his own.
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#6  Edited By GuruOfFunk


Ya, Marcus can take more damage as well as give more out.

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Fortified_Hooligan

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I think you are under-selling sonny here, guys. 
 
True that NS5's are less durable, but they have fantastic reaction times agility and speed advantages over Marcus. 
 
Sonny "By the time you fire that weapon i will already have moved the doctor's head into the path of the bullet." 
 
Sonny was likewise demonstrated excellent body control and speed and aparently a tremendous upgrade vs standard NS5's. 
See the battle in the hall where he destroys 2 other NS5's with his own hands in les time time than it takes for the crucial vial of nano bots to fall out of the air. 
 
Marcus does have good durability, but he was no match at all for the new T-800 in T4.  Meaning that we can't generalize the outstanding durability feats of the Ahhnould T-800 to Marcus.
 
He survived a land mine, took some weapons fire in the escape from the camp, and some falls and whatnot. Most of these incidents would have destroyed the standard NS5. But sonny was shown to be made of sturdier stuff (literally made of sturdier stuff) when he was able to reach directly into the disintegrator shielding which instantly cut through the standard NS5's. 
 
Point being, you can't take the showings of other NS5's as proof of sonny's durability. With that being somewhat to significantly better than the standard NS5, and Sonny's considerable advantage in body control, agility, speed and likely comparable strength levels, i have to give this to sonny. 
 
For strength reference, consider the leaping abilities of the NS5's which is strength over time (no terminator has demonstrated that amount of explosive power. The T-800 probably has better mechanical strength feats, but not power). and the one NS5 which tried to kill Smith's cheracter in the highway. After suffering excessive body damage, the NS5 slid a tipped-over car out of it's path as though it were a curtain. 
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#8  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous
@CapitolPunishment: Did you watch I,Robot on tv earlyr?
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k4tzm4n

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#9  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator


Marcus does have good durability, but he was no match at all for the new T-800 in T4 
 

In all fairness, that was because of the T-800s insanely superior durability.  The same doesn't hold true for Sonny.  The issue here will be laying a hand on him. I haven't watched I-Robot in awhile, but I remember them being rather impressive in that department.  But still, I don't see why Marcus wouldn't be able to do so if (wicky wicky Wild West) Will Smith could. 
 
Yes, that was Will Smith and not *insert character's name.*
 
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buttersdaman000

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#10  Edited By buttersdaman000

IIRC Marcus can be knocked out and killed by a good strong shot to his heart, so Im giving this to Sonny. He should be able to dance around Marcus long enough to Knock him out or punch him through the chest.

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#11  Edited By cascadeking09

I'll go with Sonny he seems to have better h2h skills and also seem stronger. 
@k4tzm4n said:

Unless Sonny brings some major technology with his prep, Marcus seemed more durable.  Sonny displayed better agility, but Marcus was quite skilled in close range (vs the thugs, for example) and rather brutal.  I think his durability allows him to take the extra hits before landing his own.
I don't remember many durability feats from him, but I do remember him being koed by Barnes.
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k4tzm4n

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#12  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
@cascadeking09

In reference to his durability, I'm thinking about the river scene, as well as the punishment the T-800 had to dish out in order to defeat him.  Also, the whole bullet-proof and barely being KO'd by a mine designed to take out robots doesn't hurt either ;)
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#13  Edited By cascadeking09
@k4tzm4n: O, ok.
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#14  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
@cascadeking09
I'd need to re-watch I-Robot to get a more accurate measure on the character.  Last time I saw it was when it was in theaters :X 
 
Or, people could kindly post youtube videos :D
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I forgot to point out that the damaged NS5 on the high way moved that turned over car with one arm. The other was destroyed, as i recall.
 
Not bad strength feat.

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#16  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
@Fortified_Hooligan
Not shabby at all.
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#17  Edited By BarelyAverage
@Fortified_Hooligan: True on the agility but I'm not so sure that Sonny would hold a considerable advantage over Marcus on the speed department. In t4, when the prototype t-800 was about to kill John Connor, Marcus displayed enough speed to tackle and pin the t-800 before it could react.
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___THUNDER___

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#18  Edited By ___THUNDER___

Sonny might win if he has enough technology. 
 
Marcus 
 
Got wounded walking in a desert tripping over some piece of metal. 
 
Got hit in the face with a shotgun and got knocked out. 
 
He got hit in the heart by a T-800. 
 
Sony might be able to take him even though i don't know if his armor is as strong as marcuses or not. then again seeing marcus was fast he might win.
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#19  Edited By slick23

Sonny stomps, he's like fighting with morals off. And he can dismantle a lot of robots if he's mad.

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CapitolPunishment

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In my honest opinion this is a great battle, I think both are very evenly matched.  k4t, hooligan and many others have posted some great points so far.  I'm kinda busy at work right now but when I get to my pc I'll try and post some of the things I feel that may contribute to the fight.  To all, thanks for the well thought out and civilized posts, cheers.
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#21  Edited By spartan92

im gunna say sonny as he was above the other NS5's in strength and durability ( but i think in certain points on his body because he was injured by getting shot in the leg ) and is also faster and smarter than marcus.
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#22  Edited By Blood_guts
@slick23 said:
Sonny stomps, he's like fighting with morals off. And he can dismantle a lot of robots if he's mad.
gotta agree the other guy is more badass but sonny could pull him apart
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#23  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
@Blood_guts
The I,Robots were extremely flimsy in comparison to the Terminator models when it came to durability.  A single pistol round was capable of destroying them (as seen during the final action sequence).  Against a Terminator, it does nothing what-so-ever.  There's a large gap in the durability difference, but what makes this especially interesting is Sonny's advantages are on the polar opposite of the specturm---speed and agility.
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@slick23 said:
Sonny stomps, he's like fighting with morals off. And he can dismantle a lot of robots if he's mad.
Sonny is tough and can tear through allot of NS-5's. The problem is Marcus is not NS-5, his durability was shown to be way above that of an NS-5, granted so is Sonny's.
 
NS-5's were damaged by gunfire, Sonny himself was injured by a gunshot to the leg. Marcus took the full brunt of a landmine that was designed to destroy robots, took heavy arms fire wile escaping from Conner's base, survived a high speed fall from and airborne craft. The only reason Barns KO'd him was because he was already greatly injured from the mine explosion, he also made a good recovery from that explosion.
 
Strength feats are hard to compare, Marcus was strong enough to toss a T-800 around like a rag roll. An NS-5 was shown seemingly strong enough to move a car.
 
Close fight still.
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deactivated-60d8e8271946e

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Could be a stalemate. Not sure yet.  
 
Sonny has a major agility advantage over Marcus, and a speed advantage, and he MIGHT be smarter. But Marcus is much stronger and more durable, the robots from I-Robot seem very brittle. 

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deactivated-60d8e8271946e

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Sonny also has the advantage of how far apart they are, with prep he can bring long-rage weapons in, if this started close-range he'd get smashed apart, but I see Sonny having a slight majority. Maybe.

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If this was a slug-fest, i think i would give it to Marcus. He does have better durability. 
 
But given what we've seen NS5's doing, and how Sonny absolutely smoked other NS5's, I anticipate sonny actually doing flips around Marcus. The agility and speed is a huge difference. 
 
I don't think Sonny could beat on Marcus to KO him. Maybe the heart punch, maybe not. But that wasn't the NS5 MO anyway. 
 
Could Sonny grab hold of marcus' head and snap it around, breaking the head loose? i think so. I don't think Marcus is fast enough to stop that from happening. And though that alone might not kill or KO marcus, it should damage him enough to make his follow up attempts futile. It should make him easy pickings at that point for sonny to reef on his head and seperate it. 
 
Lets forstall a little bit of argument from T3. Ahhnould had his head kicked off by the TX, and he just plopped it back into place and twisted it into a "CLINK" connection. 
 
That was utter PIS. Take a look at the endoskeleton of the terminators. Their heads don't connect like leggo men heads. They are a metal spine supported by pistons which roughly mimic the placement of human neck muscles.  
 
  

 
When those get broken/separated, they will stay that way unless somebody repairs them. 
 
Sonny may not be as strong as the battle-tested T chassis. His breed of robot was meant to be a kind of house-servant, after all and Terminators are meant to.. ah... terminate, so they need to be able to withstand a little termination themselves. So i won't argue that terminators are not generally more durable, and marcus vs Sonny should bear that out as well, despite Sonny having an upgrade vs other NS5's. 
 
BUT, there are weak points in the terminator endoskeleton and the neck is a prime example. The NS5's standard MO seemed to be to wrench on these kinds of weak joints and destory them, rather than to try to break through the stranger material of the chest or head. Like crocodiles and the death roll. 
 
If Sonny just tried to punch it out, i don't think it would work. If he went for death-rolls, he would probably succeed.
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#28  Edited By Erik
@___THUNDER___ said:

Sonny might win if he has enough technology. 
 
Marcus 
 
Got wounded walking in a desert tripping over some piece of metal.  Got hit in the face with a shotgun and got knocked out.  He got hit in the heart by a T-800.  Sony might be able to take him even though i don't know if his armor is as strong as marcuses or not. then again seeing marcus was fast he might win.
Hit in the face with a shotgun after he was blown up by a landmine. The shotgun smack just nudged him over the brink that he was already clearly teetering on. He was also shot in the back on the head with an automatic rifle during his escape attempt and it just make him dizzy. NS-5 robots die when shot in the head from a side arm. 
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#29  Edited By King Quisling

Did anyone else notice Will Smith's balls in Wild Wild West?

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#30  Edited By theicon

sonni  is way too fast  for marcus

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Bump
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#32  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
@theicon
Evidence?  A standard NS-5 bot was able to grab him during the hallway encounter.
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@Fortified_Hooligan
 

 If this was a slug-fest, i think i would give it to Marcus. He does have better durability.

Agreed
 

But given what we've seen NS5's doing, and how Sonny absolutely smoked other NS5's, I anticipate sonny actually doing flips around Marcus. The agility and speed is a huge difference. 

Yes, he completly dominated the. The other NS-5's seems to have similar agility as well. This does not however count out Marcus, he did not even know he was a terminator until towards the end of the movie. The strength shown when he was tossing a T-800 around like a rag doll shows that his body has the strength to jump high and probably  "flip around" if he so chose to do so. There was no indication that he would not be able to preform such feats if the situation demanded it.
 

I don't think Sonny could beat on Marcus to KO him. Maybe the heart punch, maybe not. But that wasn't the NS5 MO anyway.

I agree, his hits would do little damage to Marcus if any at all. He would also not know of his heart as his weak point. Even if he did he would either have to have him step on a land mine and blow half his ribcage away to access it or hit as hard as a T-800 to damage it externally.
 

Could Sonny grab hold of marcus' head and snap it around, breaking the head loose? i think so. I don't think Marcus is fast enough to stop that from happening. And though that alone might not kill or KO marcus, it should damage him enough to make his follow up attempts futile. It should make him easy pickings at that point for sonny to reef on his head and seperate it.

I disagree, if and that is an If Sonny got a good grip on Marcus's head he wouldn't be able to snap it around easily, if at all, it would be a struggle. This would also allow for Marcus to get his hands on Sonny and try to do the exact same thing Sonny was attempting to do. He can also start plucking his limbs off like a sick chile would do to a butterfly. Saying Sonny has a speed or agility advantage is pure speculation, there was at no point in the T4 movie that "doing flips" would have been advantageous for Marcus.
 

Lets forstall a little bit of argument from T3. Ahhnould had his head kicked off by the TX, and he just plopped it back into place and twisted it into a "CLINK" connection. 
 
That was utter PIS. Take a look at the endoskeleton of the terminators. Their heads don't connect like leggo men heads. They are a metal spine supported by pistons which roughly mimic the placement of human neck muscles. 


 Yes, it was indeed utter PIS. when Marcus decapitated the T-800 in T4 it was dead, all mechanical parts snapped off the works.
 

When those get broken/separated, they will stay that way unless somebody repairs them.

Agreed, I I stated above and aging below in this post that part of T3 was PIS. What Marcus did to the T-800 looked perfectly legit to me.
 

Sonny may not be as strong as the battle-tested T chassis. His breed of robot was meant to be a kind of house-servant, after all and Terminators are meant to.. ah... terminate, so they need to be able to withstand a little termination themselves. So i won't argue that terminators are not generally more durable, and marcus vs Sonny should bear that out as well, despite Sonny having an upgrade vs other NS5's.

No, he was no where near as strong. This is all true in regards to there respective roles aside from Sonny himself. He was designed with superior AI, superior alloys and superior programing, this was his fathers doing to put down the rest of the robots..

BUT, there are weak points in the terminator endoskeleton and the neck is a prime example. The NS5's standard MO seemed to be to wrench on these kinds of weak joints and destory them, rather than to try to break through the stranger material of the chest or head. Like crocodiles and the death roll.

Marcus is not a T-800 so we do not know if that is a weak point of his own. He actually used a similar tactic on to completly remove the head of the T-800 that was about to kill John.
 
Just one minor correction to this comment about how Sonny went for "the weak points". If I recall, he put his hand straight through the head of another NS-5, that wouldn't even dent Marcus if he tried that strategy. 
 

 If Sonny just tried to punch it out, i don't think it would work. If he went for death-rolls, he would probably succeed. 
 

I think Marcus would wreck him in a pure slug fest, if Sonny went for death rolls and flips it would be on Marcus to adapt. I personally think Marcus would be able to counter this given his size, weight compared to his strength. The plot in T4 never called for him to do so, I agree why they went that route too, his character was supposed to be the most human terminator ever created so if he started flipping around through the air and clinging to walls with claw like fingers would have just been plain silly. This however does not meant his is unable to do these things.
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venomoushatred1001

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Sonny.
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@venomoushatred1001 said:
Sonny.
 Great reasoning and I must say a well worded and thought out post, as usual.
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@CapitolPunishment
  
Good post! 

Forgot about Sonny punching through that one NS5. True. 
 
I have always thought of Terminator strength in terms of mechanical strength rather than power (speed and strength) 
 
The terminators are never portrayed as being particularly agile. If marcus had abilities like the NS5's he would have been using them to escape the human encampment. He wasn't about to be one-shotted by anybody in that camp, but they surely could have killed him if they caught him out in the open. If there was ever a need for marcus to be agile, it woud have been there, and he never did anything on the level as seen done routinely by the NS5's. 
 
Sonny very definitely has the advantage in speed and agility. 
 
I didn't mean to over-sell the ability to flip. But the body control demonstrated by that ability indicates great dexterity and speed. 
 
Unlike human combatants, an NS5 could literally dodge every punch. I have no doubt, with the explosive power demonstrate by NS5's, that Sonny could break Marcus' neck if he got hold of him. 
 
The problem being, as you pointed out, that he would be in danger himself. 
 
I think Sonny would win, but i am not counting marcus out.
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#37  Edited By MKF30

Marcus

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#38  Edited By progenitorigin

I'd give this to Marcus is a good fight.  Sonny was fiercely agile and fast when he needed to be, and his showing against the other robot was impressive, but overall, I think that Marcus' personality would give him an edge here, esp. considering how apt he was at avoiding heavy fire when he was trying to escape from Connor.