I've been wondering who would win between these two powerhouses, hence i made this thread to hear you guys out. so i took on of the strongest versions.
Chaos Magic Solomon Grundy
VS.
World Breaker Hulk
Rules:
No prep.
Fight Takes Place on an indestructible Planet.
Win By death Or KO.
No BFR.
Neither of them have any kind of weapon.
pure slugfest
Bloodlust
Scenario:
Both fighters have been influenced by a specific deceased , Both hulk and Solomon grundy start fighting mercilessly and destroy a lot of things in their way, so dr strange uses his magic to transport them to an indestructible planet.
@TheAcidSkull: how is chaos magic grundy different from normal
he is far more powerful than his usual self , he is suppose to be on par with wbh.
He's more than just "on par" with WBH. He's far above him in power. I mean, regular Grundy is able to beat Superman, and hold his own against Alan Scott, but Chaos Magic Grundy solo'd the JLA. That's definitely a step above WBH.
@TheAcidSkull: how is chaos magic grundy different from normal
he is far more powerful than his usual self , he is suppose to be on par with wbh.
He's more than just "on par" with WBH. He's far above him in power. I mean, regular Grundy is able to beat Superman, and hold his own against Alan Scott, but Chaos Magic Grundy solo'd the JLA. That's definitely a step above WBH.
I thought he could only hold his own against Alan Scott because his ring has a hard time with plant life, and Solomon Grundy is pretty much just a giant plant.
@TheAcidSkull: how is chaos magic grundy different from normal
he is far more powerful than his usual self , he is suppose to be on par with wbh.
He's more than just "on par" with WBH. He's far above him in power. I mean, regular Grundy is able to beat Superman, and hold his own against Alan Scott, but Chaos Magic Grundy solo'd the JLA. That's definitely a step above WBH.
and are we forgetting how many awesome feats hulk has preformed as savage hulk, and wolrd war hulk is about 1000 times stronger.
@TheAcidSkull: how is chaos magic grundy different from normal
he is far more powerful than his usual self , he is suppose to be on par with wbh.
He's more than just "on par" with WBH. He's far above him in power. I mean, regular Grundy is able to beat Superman, and hold his own against Alan Scott, but Chaos Magic Grundy solo'd the JLA. That's definitely a step above WBH.
and are we forgetting how many awesome feats hulk has preformed as savage hulk, and wolrd war hulk is about 1000 times stronger.
Hulk beat almost the entire earthbased Marvel universe. Bigger feat then Grundy beating JLA.
Not really. There was no Wonder Man, he had troubles with a mentally unstable Sentry, who decided the best tactic for winning was tanking punches with his face (and still stalemated Hulk...), there was no Thor, he temporarily BFR'd Juggernaut, and then ran away before he came back.
The strongest people he took on during the entire story arc was Thing, Colossus, Sentry, and a Zom empowered Doctor Strange. And Strange he only won against because Strange released Zom, and the rest are sort of moot. I see people make this point all the time, but realistically he won against a bunch of people who were out of their league challenging him anyway, there weren't any impressive opponents for him really.
@Floopay: It's kind of like that, but kind of not. I mean, in there fights, he can do everything he can do with anybody else. I don't know about PC fights, but his Post-Crisis fights are usually like that. Grundy's had the strength to break Scott's contstructs, and even break his lantern, so he's got some impressive strength feats.
@TheAcidSkull: Savage Hulk's feats aren't as impressive as regular Grundy's feats though (especially his battles). We can't theoretically guess what his power level's are like, to show how powerful he is. We have to base it of the feats he has in that form, and WWH doesn't have that many "impressive" feats. I mean, they're impressive, but when compared to Grundy's feats, they're just not that good.
@Floopay: It's kind of like that, but kind of not. I mean, in there fights, he can do everything he can do with anybody else. I don't know about PC fights, but his Post-Crisis fights are usually like that. Grundy's had the strength to break Scott's contstructs, and even break his lantern, so he's got some impressive strength feats.
@TheAcidSkull: Savage Hulk's feats aren't as impressive as regular Grundy's feats though (especially his battles). We can't theoretically guess what his power level's are like, to show how powerful he is. We have to base it of the feats he has in that form, and WWH doesn't have that many "impressive" feats. I mean, they're impressive, but when compared to Grundy's feats, they're just not that good.
i disagree, I can safely use savage hulk feats and any other incarnations feats because they are below wwh , savage hulk has been able to break classic dr strange's shield ,was able to get juggernaut to his knees, was also able to lay down a power gem welding drax with one punch, and fought the east cost and west cost avengers while he was constantly being weakened due to the psychical separation form banner. and these are just the teasers, hulk has so much more feats that are above grundy.
Hulk beat almost the entire earthbased Marvel universe. Bigger feat then Grundy beating JLA.
Not really. There was no Wonder Man, he had troubles with a mentally unstable Sentry, who decided the best tactic for winning was tanking punches with his face (and still stalemated Hulk...), there was no Thor, he temporarily BFR'd Juggernaut, and then ran away before he came back.
The strongest people he took on during the entire story arc was Thing, Colossus, Sentry, and a Zom empowered Doctor Strange. And Strange he only won against because Strange released Zom, and the rest are sort of moot. I see people make this point all the time, but realistically he won against a bunch of people who were out of their league challenging him anyway, there weren't any impressive opponents for him really.
I'd say that Grundy breaking Alan's lantern is equatable to breaking Dr. Strange's shield, and being able to get Juggernaut to his knees isn't really that impressive. He's impervious to physical harm, but he can be moved (if he doesn't have momentum). Drax has one good feat, and I doubt he really has any feats with the Power Gem. I mean you could give me the power gem, and I'd probably lose to Hulk due to inexperience. Being able to lay waste to Amazo is also pretty equal (or better) than this feat. Laying down the East Coast and West Coast isn't nearly as impressive as solo'ing the JSA. I mean the JSA actually has speed (something that Grundy countered effectively). Grundy's speed feats are also much better than Hulk's, BTW.
Keep them coming, because so far, I haven't seen ANYTHING that Grundy couldn't replicate.
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
And Sentry wasn't at full power due to his mental problems. But whar is more importent Banner won with Bob, not Sentry.
But I don't see how does it really matter here, since Grundy isn't as fast as Sentry nor he can project similar energy attacks. He can't fly, so he can't run from Hulk. It comes down to physical force.
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
Sentry was holding back, and Wonder Man has gotten leagues stronger since those days. Thor has trouble fighting Savage Hulk because he holds back. In Fear Itself he BFRs Hulk into space with a single attack. In a What If? story arc, Thor goes all out on Hulk and kills him with a lightning bolt. In Hulk Annual, Thor KOs Hulk with a single lightning blast and carries him out of Asgard.
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
And Sentry wasn't at full power due to his mental problems. But whar is more importent Banner won with Bob, not Sentry. But I don't see how does it really matter here, since Grundy isn't as fast as Sentry nor he can project similar energy attacks. He can't fly, so he can't run from Hulk. It comes down to physical force.
Sentry only used his speed once during the WWH story arc, and that was to grab Hulk out of his arena. After that he didn't use his speed at all, he purely used his strength, and even then was definitely overpowering the Hulk, even in his severely weak and unstable form (Reynold's that is).
I'd say that Grundy breaking Alan's lantern is equatable to breaking Dr. Strange's shield, and being able to get Juggernaut to his knees isn't really that impressive. He's impervious to physical harm, but he can be moved (if he doesn't have momentum). Drax has one good feat, and I doubt he really has any feats with the Power Gem. I mean you could give me the power gem, and I'd probably lose to Hulk due to inexperience. Being able to lay waste to Amazo is also pretty equal (or better) than this feat. Laying down the East Coast and West Coast isn't nearly as impressive as solo'ing the JSA. I mean the JSA actually has speed (something that Grundy countered effectively). Grundy's speed feats are also much better than Hulk's, BTW.
Keep them coming, because so far, I haven't seen ANYTHING that Grundy couldn't replicate.
now things are getting interesting :D, juggernaut is imprevious to harm , yet prof hulk managed to bring him down with 2 punches, grundy is only able to hurt superman because supes is vulnerable to magic. HULK is mostly written like a lumbering brute but he is pretty fast when the situation demands, here are some examples :
Jack of Hearts remarks, "It's impossible! Nothing alive can move that fast!"
He's snatched rockets out of the air
catching a canon head on and moving very fast for someone as big as him.
doom notes on how fast hulk is, he easily avoids such projections.
Hulk has lightning Fast reflexes.
now i know that your probably gonna bring the wolverine example, but such thing are kind of silly and useless, let me elaborate: guys like thor , hulk and herc job most the time because of the little simple fact, to make the little guys stand out, just let me bring an instance of this. The famous batman vs superman , many fans claim that batman could beat supes, which in reality is silly, same is said sometimes about spider-man vs hulk or wolverine vs hulk, though neither wolverine or spider-man should ever be able to beat hulk, however they sometimes are written to seem good when fighting guy's like thor or hulk, because other wise the would get killed. same thing goes for superman, batman fans would go nuts if superman actually did WHAT he could do, so supes is watered down so the caped crusader could look good. in reality hulk is WAAAAAAAY above then how he is written most of the time, his feats are amazingly awesome and if he actually played 0000.1 percent of that then he would rolf stomp many people.
these are one of the examples, also when it comes to striking power hulk has Grundy outmatched , and about the power gem, even though you might have a pint , the power gems perpous is to make you immune to harm to infinity and make you as strong as you like to be, so prof hulk laying down drax is pretty impressive, and this is the tougher drax , pre-annihilation.
lays down drax( with a power gem) with one punch, he wasn't KO but it's impressive none the less.
also grundy was never able to do something like this
tearing up nightmares dimension, with his fists.
hulks durability is also very high,
Resisting Vector's all-out TK. But this time, Vector is pushing himself beyond his previous limits to the point where the fabric of REALITY is being rent (which is how the U-Foes wound up at the Crossroads).
Hulk has alsoResisted a full blast from Hero Kala , hulk's dark son. The feat is impressive because same person was capable of moving a planet from microverse to macroverse (Sakaar Son of Hulk: Realm of Kings) and moving the planet around in space as a spaceship (Incredible Hulk: Dark Son- 610 to 616)
and there are many more feats like this, now imagine all this amped 10000times to hulk WB level, i think hulk has more than a chance here, in fact , i think he takes this, it seems that hulk is a tough nut, he sin't goiung down, grundy is tough bit if he is not in his swamp( he could re-attach his limbs) he has trouble healing , while hulk heals form one of the greatest wounds ever! Hulk just sees to powerful even if he is not on WB level.
@Floopay: not a place to debate this right now , and hulk was holding back, he beat the snetry . compare their faces , sentry's face is mutilated , while banner has a few burns.
@Floopay: not a place to debate this right now , and hulk was holding back, he beat the snetry . compare their faces , sentry's face is mutilated , while banner has a few burns.
Yes, but it was a mentally unstable Sentry who was nowhere near full power, and it really was more of a stalemate, they both ended the battle outside of their normal forms. I mean Banner Hulked back out after Rob was stabbed, but again,
Rob, when he is at his best, has regeneration that puts the Hulk's to shame, and speed that the Hulk shouldn't even kind of be able to deal with. The Sentry Hulk fought was mentally unstable, and Sentry's power wavers depending on his mental stability.
@Floopay: not a place to debate this right now , and hulk was holding back, he beat the snetry . compare their faces , sentry's face is mutilated , while banner has a few burns.
Yes, but it was a mentally unstable Sentry who was nowhere near full power, and it really was more of a stalemate, they both ended the battle outside of their normal forms. I mean Banner Hulked back out after Rob was stabbed, but again,
Rob, when he is at his best, has regeneration that puts the Hulk's to shame, and speed that the Hulk shouldn't even kind of be able to deal with. The Sentry Hulk fought was mentally unstable, and Sentry's power wavers depending on his mental stability.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
despite that sentry was more powerful than usual, even though he was mentally unstable. And Banner hulk-out right after a few minutes.
@Floopay: not a place to debate this right now , and hulk was holding back, he beat the snetry . compare their faces , sentry's face is mutilated , while banner has a few burns.
Yes, but it was a mentally unstable Sentry who was nowhere near full power, and it really was more of a stalemate, they both ended the battle outside of their normal forms. I mean Banner Hulked back out after Rob was stabbed, but again,
Rob, when he is at his best, has regeneration that puts the Hulk's to shame, and speed that the Hulk shouldn't even kind of be able to deal with. The Sentry Hulk fought was mentally unstable, and Sentry's power wavers depending on his mental stability.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
despite that sentry was more powerful than usual, even though he was mentally unstable. And Banner hulk-out right after a few minutes.
Except that there is zero evidence to support Sentry was anywhere near standard levels in that fight, and all evidence suggests that he was mentally unstable and below standard levels.....
But I suppose if we ignore the fact that he didn't have any regeneration, he didn't use his super speed, he didn't use the full extent of his super strength, he didn't amplify his durability to it's normal levels, and that he didn't use his energy blasts at all, then yeah, I suppose if we ignore all other Sentry showings then yes he was more powerful than usual.....
@Floopay: maybe sentry wasn't using all of his speed but he was damn well fighting with his durability and strength, he charged at the hulk and each of his punches did a great deal of harm, the only thing that suggest he was unstable was that he Cut loose and fought hulk with everything he had. we are also ignoring the fact that hulk was holding back, note only with sentry , but during the whole wwh stroy arc. of course sentry became more powerful later on in the marvel universe as he gained molecule manipulation.
and what do you mean he didn't amply his strength and durability? he had a whole aura around him producing mass amounts of energy , thats says a lot don't you think.
@Floopay: maybe sentry wasn't using all of his speed but he was damn well fighting with his durability and strength, he charged at the hulk and each of his punches did a great deal of harm, the only thing that suggest he was unstable was that he Cut loose and fought hulk with everything he had. we are also ignoring the fact that hulk was holding back, note only with sentry , but during the whole wwh stroy arc. of course sentry became more powerful later on in the marvel universe as he gained molecule manipulation.
and what do you mean he didn't amply his strength and durability? he had a whole aura around him producing mass amounts of energy , thats says a lot don't you think.
Not really. Terrax can cut entire planets in half with his axe, and destroy planetoids with his energy beams. Yet Sentry was able to take his blasts without so much as a scratch on his person, and was able to shatter Terrax's axe with little to no effort. He regenerated from being completely incinerated. He was severely mentally unstable, I don't know where you are getting the idea that he was stable, because I know you read that entire story arc.
He spent the entire story arc dealing with his agoraphobia, because he was scared what would happen if the Void came out of him again. The only thing that made him show up was seeing what the Hulk was doing being broadcast on television. In which case he took it upon himself to claim himself a god and bullrush the Hulk, and tank Hulk's blows with his face. He expended extreme amounts of energy for no reason, and wasn't even able to hold his form together (Sentry's form is a product of sheer will, he mentally controls his entire body). Almost every comment he made was insight into the madness he was going through at that point in time.
Because Sentry's powers are all based around his ability to control himself and his form, then the more mentally unstable he is, the weaker he is. Until the tilting point hits the other end, and he becomes so mentally unstable the Void is unleashed, in which case he truly unleashes the full potential of his power. However, when in full mental stability, he can tap into the same power source as the Void, and can become extraordinarily powerful.
Him stalemating a mentally unstable Sentry is a good feat, but there is no way Sentry can be claimed to be at baseline levels during that fight. He didn't have his speed, he was expending huge amounts of energy for no reason, he couldn't hold his own form for more than ten minutes, he couldn't regenerate his wounds (which means he wasn't able to control his form like he can at normal levels), he didn't use his speed, and the strength behind his punches seemed to be severely lacking.
You have to remember, this is the guy who ripped Doom's mask off his face...something nobody has been able to replicate IIRC
@Floopay: really? ripping his mask off? thats the best you got? i remember a pannel where hulk mashed his hands. i think its somewhere in last issues of incredible hulk. low feat for sentry though. hulk has been bashing hulkbuster iron man armor forever.
@Floopay: really? ripping his mask off? thats the best you got? i remember a pannel where hulk mashed his hands. i think its somewhere in last issues of incredible hulk. low feat for sentry though. hulk has been bashing hulkbuster iron man armor forever.
I purposely picked a low end feat for Sentry that nobody has ever really done before in the past for a reason. But you know, take whatever you want from that. Also, Doom has beaten Hulk in h2h combat before IIRC.
As far as Hulkbuster Armor, I've already stated who I think that's a ridiculously low end feat for Tony, considering the guy has already beaten the Hulk in the past in far weaker armor than even his Bleeding Edge.
Good Points :), and yeah i've read the story arc many times(kind of my favorite) , but i guess i don't understand sentry as well as you do :), but there is one thing which i gave something a fair amount of though, not bare with me this theory might sound a little off but hey, i am a bit of a nut.....
so here we go , if sentry was unstable, and for that occasion he was going all out, then wouldn't he be at a base level? i mean yes he is weaker when he seems unstable , But if at that stage he was going all out then wouldn't that mean that at the time he would have reached his base level ? seems to me that he should have been.
But then again i know more about the hulk then sentry so yeah i guess it was a bit ignorant on my part, but hulk has pretty impressive feats to , i posted them on this here thread.
@TheAcidSkull: M'kay. I guess this has turned into a full on debate, haha
The first scan is a classic example of "Marvel Hyperbole". I've see scans of people saying that Thor is faster than lightning (and we know that's not true). Then there's Sentry have the power of a million burning suns. Then there's someone saying Black Bolt could split a planet in half or that Cyclops could split a planet in half. A statement doesn't say too much unless it's something stated multiple times by reliable sources. This is a far out statement that obviously ISN'T true.
Regarding Hulk catching projectiles, that's not that impressive. Batman's fast enough to react to a bullet, and Batman's definitely not a speedster. That's something Grundy could do pretty easily.
now i know that your probably gonna bring the wolverine example, but such thing are kind of silly and useless, let me elaborate: guys like thor , hulk and herc job most the time because of the little simple fact, to make the little guys stand out, just let me bring an instance of this. The famous batman vs superman , many fans claim that batman could beat supes, which in reality is silly, same is said sometimes about spider-man vs hulk or wolverine vs hulk, though neither wolverine or spider-man should ever be able to beat hulk, however they sometimes are written to seem good when fighting guy's like thor or hulk, because other wise the would get killed. same thing goes for superman, batman fans would go nuts if superman actually did WHAT he could do, so supes is watered down so the caped crusader could look good. in reality hulk is WAAAAAAAY above then how he is written most of the time, his feats are amazingly awesome and if he actually played 0000.1 percent of that then he would rolf stomp many people.
I totally get what you're saying, but doesn't have too much to do with our argument. I agree, though. I'm not trying to downplay Hulk's feats, but when compared to Grundy's they're just not quite there. Not quite.
What does the nightmare realm scan prove? Does the guy have any feats to make it impressive? Because if he's featless, it doesn't really show anything.
Resisting Vector's all-out TK. But this time, Vector is pushing himself beyond his previous limits to the point where the fabric of REALITY is being rent (which is how the U-Foes wound up at the Crossroads).
In comic books "ripping reality" isn't really that impressive. Superboy Prime has done it, and Superman has mended it with his heat vision. So, "ripping reality is a pretty broad term to use.
Don't really know what Hero's Kala feats are (didn't really understand the one you posted).
and there are many more feats like this, now imagine all this amped 10000times to hulk WB level, i think hulk has more than a chance here, in fact , i think he takes this, it seems that hulk is a tough nut, he sin't goiung down, grundy is tough bit if he is not in his swamp( he could re-attach his limbs) he has trouble healing , while hulk heals form one of the greatest wounds ever! Hulk just sees to powerful even if he is not on WB level.
Grundy has trouble healing? What? He has a pretty awesome healing factor (IIRC).
Also here are some feats for Grundy:
Here Amazo isn't able to react to Grundy (Amazo being the guy who was able to out react/speed Flash) and he then decapitates Amazo and heals instantly:
Takes Etrigan's punches and hellfire blasts with no harm done:
Alan just bounces off of him, and then he proceeds to stomp him:
Owns the JLA, stopping a blitzing Jay (who's obviously going superhuman speeds), and then stomps Alan. Again.
Is shown to be more powerful than Superman, and he's beating him until Alan comes along (he even seems to be hitting Supes before he can react):
Stomps the JSA (and is stopping a blitzing Jay again):
Good Points :), and yeah i've read the story arc many times(kind of my favorite) , but i guess i don't understand sentry as well as you do :), but there is one thing which i gave something a fair amount of though, not bare with me this theory might sound a little off but hey, i am a bit of a nut.....
so here we go , if sentry was unstable, and for that occasion he was going all out, then wouldn't he be at a base level? i mean yes he is weaker when he seems unstable , But if at that stage he was going all out then wouldn't that mean that at the time he would have reached his base level ? seems to me that he should have been.
But then again i know more about the hulk then sentry so yeah i guess it was a bit ignorant on my part, but hulk has pretty impressive feats to , i posted them on this here thread.
His form is purely controlled by himself. That's why when the Void takes over, his form changes so drastically (at least that's how I have understood it). The Void can control his form to be whatever horrifying nightmare he wants to be at that particular point, which is pretty much whatever tickles his fancy. Now it's already been established that the Void would curbstomp the Hulk.
Rob has shown that he can put out much more energy than what he put out in that fight against the Hulk and still be okay. It's also been shown he can take much more punishment than what the Hulk's fists have to offer, and he's also shown that his punching power far exceeds that of what he was displaying in that fight. The Hulk can tank shots from the Thing and Colossus with only a few temporary bruises. However, Sentry far exceeds these two across the board, and his punches seemed to only match what those two had been putting out.
Based on the feats shown by Sentry in that fight, he appears to be weaker than normal. Yes, he was going "all out", but he wasn't able to really control himself the way he normally can, and that was proven by the fact that he couldn't hold his own form once he started tanking punches. He was in a state of mind where "all out" wasn't something he was actually able to do, and when he tried to do it, he failed...miserably...
His form is purely controlled by himself. That's why when the Void takes over, his form changes so drastically (at least that's how I have understood it). The Void can control his form to be whatever horrifying nightmare he wants to be at that particular point, which is pretty much whatever tickles his fancy. Now it's already been established that the Void would curbstomp the Hulk.
Fair Point
he Hulk can tank shots from the Thing and Colossus with only a few temporary bruises. However, Sentry far exceeds these two across the board, and his punches seemed to only match what those two had been putting out.
The Galaxy Master, an entity that roamed the cosmos and destroyed entire planets, assaults Savage Hulk who impossibly manages to fight through him inIncredible Hulk #112 and forces him to switch to chemical gas tactics
.
Takes a lighting blast form zeus and then fights the skyfather head on.
this proves that Hulk can take blows form guys far more powerful than colossus and the thing.
i agree on the rest
@blackadamFTW:
The first scan is a classic example of "Marvel Hyperbole". I've see scans of people saying that Thor is faster than lightning (and we know that's not true). Then there's Sentry have the power of a million burning suns. Then there's someone saying Black Bolt could split a planet in half or that Cyclops could split a planet in half. A statement doesn't say too much unless it's something stated multiple times by reliable sources. This is a far out statement that obviously ISN'T true
Fair enough. also regarding the speed thing, wwh hulk is pretty agile and a smart tactition in comparison to grundy , so he isn't going to charge in like an idiot , he'll actually plan things out. but also there is one problem man, i can't see you JLA fight scans :(, i take your word for it but i just can't see them, i need to observe on how the league is fighting him in order to make a conclusion, but knowing superman i think he just brawled , in which case hulk could do pretty well to, and supes is again weak to magic. also amazo didn't seem to use his speed, if he could react to someone as fast as flash i don't why he couldn't have reacted to grundy.
Grundy took a fist of flame form etrigan , while hulk took a balst form zarathos ( in control)
Zarathos can't sear the Hulk.
and about grundy's HF, i'll admit that i did not remember that instance ( i do know though) , but He seemed to be easily cut by amazos lazers , meaning hulk could seperate gundys limbs or incinerate him with gamma radiation.
and grundy has yet show that he could heal from something like this.
this should prove that hulk can heal faster and greater when he is angry, Carmilla Black injects hulk with a poison and after hulk gets mad he gets back right up.
Just a little not on how strong Carmilla black's chemicals were.
Even when vapor morphs into acidic gas, she still isn't able to put hulk down
or this
Even when vapor morphs into acidic gas, she still isn't able to put hulk down
and besides grundy can't KO the Hulk, he took a force equal to the kinetic power of a hundred trillion tons of shifting lithosphere
also when it comes to superhuman speed hulks pretty fats in tagging people too, he tagged quicksilver , who is a speedster.
and also regarding your question about nightmare:
Nightmare has been shown capable of simultaneously subduing two Earth demigods, an Eternal, an Elder God, and a genius-level human teenager with ease through magic while assessing their worst fears from the darkest crevices of their minds, though is actually capable of sustaining reasonable physical harm with one strike from Hercules. His existence and vast knowledge is known to the Council of Godheads.
Also you didn't say anything about my hiro-kala feat though....
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
And Sentry wasn't at full power due to his mental problems. But whar is more importent Banner won with Bob, not Sentry. But I don't see how does it really matter here, since Grundy isn't as fast as Sentry nor he can project similar energy attacks. He can't fly, so he can't run from Hulk. It comes down to physical force.
Sentry only used his speed once during the WWH story arc, and that was to grab Hulk out of his arena. After that he didn't use his speed at all, he purely used his strength, and even then was definitely overpowering the Hulk, even in his severely weak and unstable form (Reynold's that is).
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Untrue.
Sentry used speed immediately after that and Hulk countered.
Also, Sentry used more than just strength in this fight. He blasted Hulk with energy several times.\
@Floopay said:
@TheAcidSkull said:
@Floopay: Banner didn't fight sentry to a draw, he won, and he was holding back the whole wwh story arc. wonder man wouldn't be much of a trouble since grey hulk overpowered him , and Thor would have lost this battle with hulk even if he was there, he hs trouble fighting savage hulk, wwh would win , and wbh would demolish him.
Sentry was holding back, and Wonder Man has gotten leagues stronger since those days. Thor has trouble fighting Savage Hulk because he holds back. In Fear Itself he BFRs Hulk into space with a single attack. In a What If? story arc, Thor goes all out on Hulk and kills him with a lightning bolt. In Hulk Annual, Thor KOs Hulk with a single lightning blast and carries him out of Asgard.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
There's no indication that Sentry was holding back, AT ALL. His "mental stability" only comes into play when he's trying to limit himself. That specifically wasn't the case in WWH. He states, more than once, that he's cutting loose. The narration and other characters support this statement.
BFR isn't a win anywhere other than Battleboards. Thor himself didn't consider it a win, which is why he said "To be continued, Banner." He BFR'd him because he couldn't actually beat him.
Hulk's also shown capable of taking Thor's lightning. One showing isn't the end-all, be-all. And I'm not even going to touch What If's.
@blackadamFTW said:
Grundy has trouble healing? What? He has a pretty awesome healing factor (IIRC).
Also here are some feats for Grundy:
Here Amazo isn't able to react to Grundy (Amazo being the guy who was able to out react/speed Flash) and he then decapitates Amazo and heals instantly:
Takes Etrigan's punches and hellfire blasts with no harm done:
Alan just bounces off of him, and then he proceeds to stomp him:
Owns the JLA, stopping a blitzing Jay (who's obviously going superhuman speeds), and then stomps Alan. Again.
Is shown to be more powerful than Superman, and he's beating him until Alan comes along (he even seems to be hitting Supes before he can react):
Stomps the JSA (and is stopping a blitzing Jay again):
There ya go! That's all I have for now.
That scan of Amazo isn't that impressive since Amazo wasn't actually using his speed there. Being as fast as the Flash means nothing if you don't uuse your speed. Batman managed to tackle the same Amazo in that arc, too.
Hulk, OTOH, has actually been known to tag people while they are using there speed. And he has more feats of that nature than Grundy. The best you came up with is him hitting Jay but it's not even clear how fast Jay is moving.
Hulk's healed from Ghost Rider's fire and Torch's Nova Flame so he's still above Grundy there, too.
Hulk vs. Grundy? It's like Black Adam vs. Broly; both suffer immense damage before a real winner stands up. I lean to Grundy winning for several reasons.
The first one being weakness; if Hulk loses one millimeter of control, he reverts back into Bruce Banner. Solomon Grundy only reverts back into Cyrus Gold with the rising of the sun (only happened in one arc, so chances are it was a fluke) or if he "dies". However, with each death Grundy faces, he grows stronger and stronger. He can also re-animate to varying times, sometimes to seconds, others to several days. If Grundy where to revert into Cyrus while fighting Hulk, he'd die and re-animate multiple times back to back, growing stronger each and every time.
Also Grundy can bite. Sounds strange, but he isn't above chewing off body parts in a fight. He one time ate Red Tornado's arm when he gained superhuman intelligence. Hulk can bite too, but if he tries to eat Grundy, he'd be torn apart from the inside. If we go ahead and use information/abilities from his video game appearances, he can also use electrical barrages to stun and fry his victims.
Also Grundy is an adept swimmer. Just throwing that out there.
Hulk has shown amazing feats, but only after lengths of time in a rage mode. WWH was only as strong as he was because he had been living indefinitely as Hulk, rather than shift from Hulk to Banner.
Hulk also is limited to regeneration. If he does die, he stays dead. Unless mystics are applied to re-animate him.
In general I'd think it'd be more of a punching match meets WWE between the two. But you can't kill something that's already dead. And heaven forbid Grundy re-animates with hyper-intelligence. Then Hulk can kiss his butt goodbye.
Where dd Hulk counter his speed? Sentry grabs him and rips him through another building....
Sentry was nowhere near full power, in fact, that was one of his lower showings to be completely honest. Where's his actual speed? Where's his durability, where's his regeneration?
@Floopay: maybe sentry wasn't using all of his speed but he was damn well fighting with his durability and strength, he charged at the hulk and each of his punches did a great deal of harm, the only thing that suggest he was unstable was that he Cut loose and fought hulk with everything he had. we are also ignoring the fact that hulk was holding back, note only with sentry , but during the whole wwh stroy arc. of course sentry became more powerful later on in the marvel universe as he gained molecule manipulation.
and what do you mean he didn't amply his strength and durability? he had a whole aura around him producing mass amounts of energy , thats says a lot don't you think.
Not really. Terrax can cut entire planets in half with his axe, and destroy planetoids with his energy beams. Yet Sentry was able to take his blasts without so much as a scratch on his person, and was able to shatter Terrax's axe with little to no effort. He regenerated from being completely incinerated. He was severely mentally unstable, I don't know where you are getting the idea that he was stable, because I know you read that entire story arc.
He spent the entire story arc dealing with his agoraphobia, because he was scared what would happen if the Void came out of him again. The only thing that made him show up was seeing what the Hulk was doing being broadcast on television. In which case he took it upon himself to claim himself a god and bullrush the Hulk, and tank Hulk's blows with his face. He expended extreme amounts of energy for no reason, and wasn't even able to hold his form together (Sentry's form is a product of sheer will, he mentally controls his entire body). Almost every comment he made was insight into the madness he was going through at that point in time.
Because Sentry's powers are all based around his ability to control himself and his form, then the more mentally unstable he is, the weaker he is. Until the tilting point hits the other end, and he becomes so mentally unstable the Void is unleashed, in which case he truly unleashes the full potential of his power. However, when in full mental stability, he can tap into the same power source as the Void, and can become extraordinarily powerful.
Him stalemating a mentally unstable Sentry is a good feat, but there is no way Sentry can be claimed to be at baseline levels during that fight. He didn't have his speed, he was expending huge amounts of energy for no reason, he couldn't hold his own form for more than ten minutes, he couldn't regenerate his wounds (which means he wasn't able to control his form like he can at normal levels), he didn't use his speed, and the strength behind his punches seemed to be severely lacking.
You have to remember, this is the guy who ripped Doom's mask off his face...something nobody has been able to replicate IIRC
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Yeah, the bolded part's not exactly true.
It's not about stability so much as mental state (because Bob's ALWAYS unstable.) IOW, he's as powerful as he believes himself to be. He was extremely unstable during Siege, yet his power-level wasn't "weak." He's always able to tap into the same power-levels in Sentry form as he does in Void (with the possible exception of molecule control since he wasn't aware of that ability until after WWH.) The difference is how he uses said power.
Sentry showed no problems controlling his form during WWH, Perhaps you're confusing this with what happened in Siege?
As far as his agoraphobia, that was dealt with the moment he decided to confront Hulk. He was scared of letting loose and conjuring the Void but, once he engaged Bruce, all doubt had left him. He was letting go and enjoying himself, as was specifically stated. There's no indication that Bob was still holding back, at all.
Yet his showings were still well below many of his other feats. He lost his form after a brief physical struggle with the Hulk, he showed nowhere near the durability he's shown before, he didn't have any form of regeneration, he didn't really utilize his speed...at all, and he literally just abandoned his agoraphobia and charged the Hulk. I mean that's a life shattering decision made seconds before a fight. All evidence suggests he wasn't anywhere near normal power levels...
This doesn't suggest that he was the same guy who was able to overload Absorbing Man, the same guy who absorbed a god blast from Odin...or the same guy who tanked several attacks from Terrax with no effect to his person. We can claim all day how we want to interpret the things Sentry said, but the simple truth is his showing were well below many of his other showings...
Where dd Hulk counter his speed? Sentry grabs him and rips him through another building....
Sentry was nowhere near full power, in fact, that was one of his lower showings to be completely honest. Where's his actual speed? Where's his durability, where's his regeneration?
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Sentry attacks Hulk from behind, knocking him into a building. Sentry then rushes at Hulk again and Hulk counters with this:
The next page is Hulk continuing to punch Sentry. The page after that, Sentry blasts Hulk in the gut with a double fist/energy blast combo. Not sure where you're getting the idea Sentry grabbed Hulk from.
Sentry used his speed in that fight and Hulk countered. Hulk's also shown great reaction time against other speedsters while they were actually using their speed, too. As for durability, I don't see how being hurt by Hulk is a low showing considering the Hulk's feats. Maybe if you only look at Sentry's highest showings versus Hulk's average then, yeah, but that's pretty unfair, don't you think?
I like how, unless an opponent uses ALL their abilities, on panel, against Hulk then they are "holding back." Yet we don't hold others to that same criteria. For example, the JLA/JSA that Grundy beat didn't use their speed, save for Jay. Alan Scott's assumed to be operating at his highest level so, when Grundy beats him, that means something. Why is that?
Yet his showings were still well below many of his other feats. He lost his form after a brief physical struggle with the Hulk, he showed nowhere near the durability he's shown before, he didn't have any form of regeneration, he didn't really utilize his speed...at all, and he literally just abandoned his agoraphobia and charged the Hulk. I mean that's a life shattering decision made seconds before a fight. All evidence suggests he wasn't anywhere near normal power levels...
This doesn't suggest that he was the same guy who was able to overload Absorbing Man, the same guy who absorbed a god blast from Odin...or the same guy who tanked several attacks from Terrax with no effect to his person. We can claim all day how we want to interpret the things Sentry said, but the simple truth is his showing were well below many of his other showings...
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
You keep saying this like Hulk's not the powerhouse he is. The point of him loosing his form was to showcase how powerful the Hulk was in relation not to show that sentry is weak. How did you not get that? The problem seems to be you keep taking Sentry's high showings and treating them like that's the level he should always be on, if at 100%. But you're not taking Hulk's highest showings into account.
Unless Hulk's just that powerful. Hulk has destroyed machinery capable of taking attacks from Celestials and reflected back universe destroying attacks. Are you truly surprised he could give Sentry a fight, especially when he was at his most angry (prior to WBH)? C'mon, man. You're really selling Hulk short.
Where dd Hulk counter his speed? Sentry grabs him and rips him through another building....
Sentry was nowhere near full power, in fact, that was one of his lower showings to be completely honest. Where's his actual speed? Where's his durability, where's his regeneration?
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Sentry attacks Hulk from behind, knocking him into a building. Sentry then rushes at Hulk again and Hulk counters with this:
The next page is Hulk continuing to punch Sentry. The page after that, Sentry blasts Hulk in the gut with a double fist/energy blast combo. Not sure where you're getting the idea Sentry grabbed Hulk from.
Sentry used his speed in that fight and Hulk countered. Hulk's also shown great reaction time against other speedsters while they were actually using their speed, too. As for durability, I don't see how being hurt by Hulk is a low showing considering the Hulk's feats. Maybe if you only look at Sentry's highest showings versus Hulk's average then, yeah, but that's pretty unfair, don't you think?
I like how, unless an opponent uses ALL their abilities, on panel, against Hulk then they are "holding back." Yet we don't hold others to that same criteria. For example, the JLA/JSA that Grundy beat didn't use their speed, save for Jay. Alan Scott's assumed to be operating at his highest level so, when Grundy beats him, that means something. Why is that?
I'm not saying the Hulk isn't impressive. I'm just saying that version of Sentry doesn't seem to be operating on a level that I would even kind of put as "letting looose". And Grundy only really took Alan Scott because Grundy is essentially a giant plant, which makes it really really difficult for Alan Scott to effect him.
Again, not a low showing, just a fact.
What really proves to me that Sentry wasn't going all out, is that he couldn't even hold his own form together for more what? Ten minutes? Maybe a little more? It just doesn't seem like he was really ready to use his powers to their full extent. Yeah, Hulk tanked Sentry's fists, and a few energy blasts, but Sentry was begging him to punch him in the face more and more. That's not exactly the plea of someone who is "in it to win it". I don't even know how that can be argued as him trying to do his best....
Where dd Hulk counter his speed? Sentry grabs him and rips him through another building....
Sentry was nowhere near full power, in fact, that was one of his lower showings to be completely honest. Where's his actual speed? Where's his durability, where's his regeneration?
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Sentry attacks Hulk from behind, knocking him into a building. Sentry then rushes at Hulk again and Hulk counters with this:
The next page is Hulk continuing to punch Sentry. The page after that, Sentry blasts Hulk in the gut with a double fist/energy blast combo. Not sure where you're getting the idea Sentry grabbed Hulk from.
Sentry used his speed in that fight and Hulk countered. Hulk's also shown great reaction time against other speedsters while they were actually using their speed, too. As for durability, I don't see how being hurt by Hulk is a low showing considering the Hulk's feats. Maybe if you only look at Sentry's highest showings versus Hulk's average then, yeah, but that's pretty unfair, don't you think?
I like how, unless an opponent uses ALL their abilities, on panel, against Hulk then they are "holding back." Yet we don't hold others to that same criteria. For example, the JLA/JSA that Grundy beat didn't use their speed, save for Jay. Alan Scott's assumed to be operating at his highest level so, when Grundy beats him, that means something. Why is that?
I'm not saying the Hulk isn't impressive. I'm just saying that version of Sentry doesn't seem to be operating on a level that I would even kind of put as "letting looose". And Grundy only really took Alan Scott because Grundy is essentially a giant plant, which makes it really really difficult for Alan Scott to effect him.
Again, not a low showing, just a fact.
What really proves to me that Sentry wasn't going all out, is that he couldn't even hold his own form together for more what? Ten minutes? Maybe a little more? It just doesn't seem like he was really ready to use his powers to their full extent. Yeah, Hulk tanked Sentry's fists, and a few energy blasts, but Sentry was begging him to punch him in the face more and more. That's not exactly the plea of someone who is "in it to win it". I don't even know how that can be argued as him trying to do his best....
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
You may be attributing Grundy's win against Alan to his plant-form but others aren't. And, it's not just Grundy vs. Alan. Posters do the same thing with Mongul vs. Hulk claiming since Mongul's punched Superman, they must have equal speed. Or that Doomsday's so much faster than hulk, despite the fact DD has less speed feats than Hulk, etc. There's a very clear bias on this site.
He couldn't hold his form together due to the beating Hulk was putting on him. Again, the point Pak was making was about the power-level of Hulk at that moment. You're reading into it, I think and trying to rationalize it.
The reason Sentry wanted Hulk to hit him was because he knew Hulk was the only one present who could give him a good fight.I never said Sentry was doing his best just that he wasn't holding back. Bob's not some master fighter so him not using his abilities the way you or I would (or any poster here, for that matter) doesn't equate to him "holding back."
ı Think This version of Grundy..Take WB Hulk.... Grundy always underrated about this stuff but he is so strong, he is immortal and he really really fast healin.... I Say Grundy for this
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