SMH CadenceV2 vs Beatboks1

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#1  Edited By Pokergeist

CadenceV2-Spider-Woman & Ultimate Green Goblin

vs

beatboks1-Manhunter(Mark Shaw)-kevlar padded uniform, Sensore Mask, Manhunter's Staff & Creeper

Rules

  • Morals are off
  • random encounter
  • Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
  • There is NO BFR
  • Characters have no knowledge on each other

Location

  • Begin 10 eet apart
  • Forest is unpopulated
  • Begin visible
  • Fight takes place here:
No Caption Provided
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#2  Edited By Pokergeist

Its on!

Im starting this since I am so bored.

My opener here is quite simple. Spider Woman Pheromones will come into play right of the back. She will take to the sky as is in character for her.

After this Norman will hurl Plasma Fireballs at Creeper who stupid laugh will annoy the hell out of him.

SW will know to take out the creeper too as the biggest Threat with her Venom Blast. Even as a child her Venom Blast are lethal and KO others with a single blast.

Once Creeper is dropped, Shaw is outnumbered 2 to 1 and the odds are really not good for him then.

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#3  Edited By beatboks1

wrong gear for manhunter. I corrected it in PM. the gear your listing is Kate's not Mark's

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#4  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1: Nvm. I fixed it.

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#5  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1: Also edited 10 feet apart like everyone elses.

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#6  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2:

My opener here is quite simple. Spider woman Pheromones will come into play right of the back. She will take to the sky as is in character for her

I don't see the pheromones being all that useful.

1. Shaw's mask has a built in filtration device that has always allowed him to survive gas and airborne attacks. I see it being just as effective here.

2. Creepers is a twisted individual with two personas present within him. That of Jack Ryder and teh demon who is a part of him. I don't see simple pheromones as causing him any issues

When Spiderwoman takes to the air, Shaw will take to it after her.

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After this Norman will hurl Plasma Fireballs at Creeper who stupid laugh will annoy the hell out of him.

SW will know to take out the creeper too as the biggest Threat with her Venom Blast. Eve as a child her Venom Blast are lethal and KO others with a single blast.

You are aware of just how durable and resilient Creeper is aren't you??

This is a guy who can literally heal back to full health from being torn apart

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He can tank multiple gun blasts ( automatic machine guns) in the chest and heals almost instantly. In his own words he heals faster than the Flash.

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The worst that you can do to Creeper is only going to briefly delay him. He's also shown to be fast enough to dodge automatic gunfire at point blank range.

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Now when you consider that the main attacks of both your team can easily be dealt with by someone wielding an electromagnetic pulse weapon, I'd say this gives me a huge edge. Almost all of Norman's weapons can be fused or made useless by Shaw's electromagnetic Pulse in the same way he's shut down Mirror Masters tech and Capt Cold's gun. Anything that can't when hurled at my team can simply be returned to those doing the hurling. Plus Jessica's main attack is her bio-electric blast, sorry but electricity is easily controlled my magnetism.

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All of this is without his sonic or taser attachments ( or other uses of the baton/staff). Without his training by the manhunter Cult a 10000's of year old organisation incorporating combat styles from all over the universe.

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#7  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1:

I don't see the pheromones being all that useful.
1. Shaw's mask has a built in filtration device that has always allowed him to survive gas and airborne attacks. I see it being just as effective here.
2. Creepers is a twisted individual with two personas present within him. That of Jack Ryder and teh demon who is a part of him. I don't see simple pheromones as causing him any issues
When Spiderwoman takes to the air, Shaw will take to it after her.

You know, I was in the military, as you were too, and learn all about Gas Masks. They can filter different things depending on different chemical containers. There is certain chemical gasses that are not filltered when others are. Smells can leak thru as well.

My point is I see no reason why the Pheromones will be filtered unless your on a air tank and not breathing the environment at all. The Mask must take in outside air. So it stands to reason it could very well not filter Pheromones. I will let the voters decide.

Creeper still has a human side it can affect, also the pheramones have work on non humans who have senses and emotions. Creeper breaths and has bilogical working body, then he should be affected to a degree.

You are aware of just how durable and resilient Creeper is aren't you??
This is a guy who can literally heal back to full health from being torn apart
He can tank multiple gun blasts ( automatic machine guns) in the chest and heals almost instantly. In his own words he heals faster than the Flash.
The worst that you can do to Creeper is only going to briefly delay him. He's also shown to be fast enough to dodge automatic gunfire at point blank range.

I am fully aware of Creeper Healing. You know who else is very durable?

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BAMSKY! It KOed for a good amount of time Wolverine!

Also those Plasma Fireballs of Green Goblin....

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These Plasma Bolts have destroyed M1 A1 Tanks with a shot as well Re Enforce Blast Doors!

So yeah creeper Durability is not compensating for being in pieces and burning to ashes.

Now when you consider that the main attacks of both your team can easily be dealt with by someone wielding an electromagnetic pulse weapon, I'd say this gives me a huge edge. Almost all of Norman's weapons can be fused or made useless by Shaw's electromagnetic Pulse in the same way he's shut down Mirror Masters tech and Capt Cold's gun. Anything that can't when hurled at my team can simply be returned to those doing the hurling. Plus Jessica's main attack is her bio-electric blast, sorry but electricity is easily controlled my magnetism.

.... Beatboks... I am confuse.

I thought you knew :)

There is no tech on my team.

Spider woman Venom Blast are Biological. You may be able to disrupt it it is not her only power. She is by far faster, better fighter, and has a good degree of super strength.

Green Goblin Plasma Fire is generated the same way as Human Torch.

What are you going to shut down ;)

All of this is without his sonic or taser attachments ( or other uses of the baton/staff). Without his training by the manhunter Cult a 10000's of year old organisation incorporating combat styles from all over the universe.

Combat styles. Spider Woman knows a thing or too about Combat styles. She Effortlessly beaten Spider Man before he learn the Way of the Spider and he still was holding his own vs Martial Artist with Spider Sense and his stats.

She is one of the best fighters on the New Avenger team.

She easily out Maneuvers Wolverine.

This is Jessica, however Skrull Queen has all her skill so it counts when this is Jessica just became free.

Her SW skills take down Venom, Bullseye, Moon Stone, Marvel Boy, Ares, and would have beaten sentry if not his insane Durability. All in 5 moves!

She is by far the superior fighter in this match by miles.

You said your Electromagnet will disrupt her Venom Blast!

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Dr. Doom thought he could contain it too. Her Venom Blast is a Unidentified form of Energy. You have no proof of blocking it with Electromagnetic s. My point is I belive Dr. Doom > to Shaw and Doom prepped for her powers!

I will let the Voters decide that too.

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#8  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2:

Against a gas mask made of Human technology you would be right. Manhunter's tech is that of the Manhunters. An intergalactic group of robot/androids who have enlisted life forms from all over the universe and been around for centuries. Their history precedes the GLC and their weapons can contend with them.

Let's not forget that mark Shaw has fought the Satellite era JLA on his own and had them on the ropes. That was with prep ( which he doesn't have here), but also using those Manhunter weapons.

These Plasma Bolts have destroyed M1 A1 Tanks with a shot as well Re Enforce Blast Doors!

So yeah creeper Durability is not compensating for being in pieces and burning to ashes.

This just shows me that you DON'T know how durable Creeper is. Seriously we are talking about a guy who crash landed a space craft that exploded and devastated the country side and he just walked through it.

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So what exactly is Goblin going to hit Creeper with. He regenerates from anything almost instantly. All your going to achieve is ticking him off.

Plus there is always the paralytic effect of his Laugh. Yes the more he subjects someone to it the less effective it is, but in a random encounter both your team are paralyzed and waiting for my team to attack first as soon as he laughs.

There is no tech on my team.

I'll be honest I missed the Ultimate part of Green Goblin ( thought this was normal). It matters not as Plasma is ionized matter ( with electrons increased or reduced) and as such is equally susceptible to an electromagnetic field. Mark has used them to place a magnetic charge on people before so that he can push or move a person who has no metal. Moving something that has an electric charge with electromagnetic isn't a biggy.

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Here his magnetic pulse simply pushes Catman ( a guy in spandex, no metal) into a car when he's making a run for it)

Spider woman Venom Blast are Biological. You may be able to disrupt it it is not her only power. She is by far faster, better fighter, and has a good degree of super strength.

Combat styles. Spider Woman knows a thing or too about Combat styles. She Effortlessly beaten Spider Man before he learn the Way of the Spider and he still was holding his own vs Martial Artist with Spider Sense and his stats.

Her SW skills take down Venom, Bullseye, Moon Stone, Marvel Boy, Ares, and would have beaten sentry if not his insane Durability. All in 5 moves!

She is by far the superior fighter in this match by miles.

Sorry but none of this gives you a win over Shaw. His regular Enemy Dumas is a shape shifter with a healing factor and a couple of centuries of training in combat just like Wolverine and he regularly takes him down. Hell he's fought and defeated enhanced aliens with his hands tied, taken down most of the Flash Rogues and Several of Green Lantern's. The only one's you've mentioned who are in the league of those he's taken down are Ares and Sentry.

Now without the Strobe attachment to his Baton this would obviously never have worked. If he hadn't blinded wally to make his movements slow enough for him to have a chance he'd have been toast. But even slowed i don't see SW dealing with a Flash.

We are talking about a guy who has NO super powers. he has a kick ass weapon sure and a handy device in his mask but he takes down top level super villains for the bounty. AND he has also taken down the JLA on his own before too.

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#9  Edited By Pokergeist

Dang It@beatboks1: where is your Reply button!?

Against a gas mask made of Human technology you would be right. Manhunter's tech is that of the Manhunters. An intergalactic group of robot/androids who have enlisted life forms from all over the universe and been around for centuries. Their history precedes the GLC and their weapons can contend with them.
Let's not forget that mark Shaw has fought the Satellite era JLA on his own and had them on the ropes. That was with prep ( which he doesn't have here), but also using those Manhunter weapons.

Fair enough. However creeper should still be affected by them as much Green Goblin would be Affected by the laugh.

This just shows me that you DON'T know how durable Creeper is. Seriously we are talking about a guy who crash landed a space craft that exploded and devastated the country side and he just walked through it.


So what exactly is Goblin going to hit Creeper with. He regenerates from anything almost instantly. All your going to achieve is ticking him off.
Plus there is always the paralytic effect of his Laugh. Yes the more he subjects someone to it the less effective it is, but in a random encounter both your team are paralyzed and waiting for my team to attack first as soon as he laughs.

This is a misunderstood scan. Creeper was in the ship. It doesnt look like he survived that explosion rather than survived the crash intact. There is no showing how much Damage creeper actually took, could been a little damage. I seen it before. It is more a off panel showing of Creepers Durability which hoenstly Logan could tank.

This is his Healing? Seems like its not instant nor durable at all!

So yeah a Tank Blowing Blast will blow him to pieces and put him down for a time for sure!

Also the Laugh is going to affect Green Goblin in a smaller degree than you think.

In the scans on his laugh it affect a human part of the mind. GG is not Human at all when he transforms as well his brain.

For one thing he has a mass of voices in his head and sees the world in a different way.

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For 2 he has resisted the pain and power nullyfing collar of SHIELD, Tranq Darts, and Pyms B***h Slap from Hell.

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Even Pym confirm his Genetic Changes are not Human anymore.

So how effective will the Laugh be on him with all this Genetic changes, warped mind, and extreme high resistance to "Paralyzing Effects"?

I'll be honest I missed the Ultimate part of Green Goblin ( thought this was normal). It matters not as Plasma is ionized matter ( with electrons increased or reduced) and as such is equally susceptible to an electromagnetic field. Mark has used them to place a magnetic charge on people before so that he can push or move a person who has no metal. Moving something that has an electric charge with electromagnetic isn't a biggy.

All neat, however I rather see a solid feat of this Magnetic Field on Green Goblins Plasma or the Unknown Energy Type of Spider Woman. It seems all theory the level he can manipulate Magnetism. He is no Magneto.

It seems a Aimed attack as well. Spider wWoman is really fast you. Spider Man Fast.

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She easily matches Spider Man agility and actually out ran a killing throw of a light pole!

Sorry but none of this gives you a win over Shaw. His regular Enemy Dumas is a shape shifter with a healing factor and a couple of centuries of training in combat just like Wolverine and he regularly takes him down. Hell he's fought and defeated enhanced aliens with his hands tied, taken down most of the Flash Rogues and Several of Green Lantern's. The only one's you've mentioned who are in the league of those he's taken down are Ares and Sentry.

Yeah he took down the Rogues... with Prep. same with Justice League. He has none here. Also I think Spider woman feats vs Wolverine and the Dark Avengers there is more well establish than some obscure shape shifter with suppose experience.

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Spider Man who has easily match Cap and Dare Devil in the past gets taken down by Spider Woman skill.

These are establish Characters. Spider Woman out skilled them all.

Now without the Strobe attachment to his Baton this would obviously never have worked. If he hadn't blinded wally to make his movements slow enough for him to have a chance he'd have been toast. But even slowed i don't see SW dealing with a Flash.

I never thought Deathstroke would deal with Flash.... oh wait! He did too with prep. The Flash Feat is neat but again a Prep Feat.

We are talking about a guy who has NO super powers. he has a kick ass weapon sure and a handy device in his mask but he takes down top level super villains for the bounty. AND he has also taken down the JLA on his own before too.

Again he is awesome due to Prep Feats. In a Random Battle against these 2 superior beings (Strength, Durability, Speed, Power Blasts, and Skill) in a random battle.

I am just not seeing what they will do to hurt Green Goblin at all who tanks Human Torch best with fight still in him, Assualt Rifle/Minigun Fire with ease, and 9 toner hits with a smile!

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#10  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2: I hit reply on that last ine

the scan of the explosion isn't out of context at all. he has healled on several occssions from major damage before the smoke clears. when Proteus had him he healed from every torture instantly. when he devoured and disolved him he was on his feet next panel. show me a single thing that has ever put Creeper down for any time. He's battled the ikes of Hermes ( as fsst as Flash) and taken everything he can dish out in Wonderwoman.

also while his taking down the JLA was a prep feat ( and yes sshaw is a prep master) he never used prep to take down Cold or Mirror mater. He was following Cold and forced to act before he wasm ready so he was comoletely un prepped. MM was a team mate who turned sides and it ws pure reaction. As for the Flash one he was also caught by surprise and had to come up with a way to turn certain stomping into victory since Wally thought he was the threat not the Durlans

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#11  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2: Damn it.

I've had a hunt through and can't find Issue 9 of Manhunter's series. ( the one the Flash Scan came from). I found 8 and issue 21 and 22 of Flash ( the crossover between both titles that ties into invasion).

I do know that the page before the scan I showed Wally had surprised Mark. Wally believed that Mark was kidnapping his mother when he had actually been hired by her to protect him ( Wally) during the Invasion crossover.

In issue 22 of Flash Mark did get the drop on wally and put him down because of his stealth. But in Issue 9 Wally in fact attacked an unprepared Mark. Had him well untrully on the ropes and only that when he was coming it to finish the job and Mark activated the blinding strobe of his baton did Mark even have a chance to react and turn the battle. Just for the record back then Wally was not a light speeder. After COIE in his early years Wally was only like Mach 20 in speed. That's still a hell of a lot faster than anyone that Jennifer has reacted to ever.

Jennifer will also have a a hard time fighting with her senses reeling from strobe blast, sonic blast etc.

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Also What gives you the idea that Creepers laugh only works on Humans?? It has worked on Aliens and on other demons. I'll hunt up the scans as soon as I can. But it certainly isn't restricted to humans. His "sonic" laugh prior to the Demon retcon may have been but his paralytic laugh isn't.

As for putting down Green Goblin

1. Mark's Baton without using it's full charge or potency has stunned and taken out Durlans. That's a race that survive anything the void of space, nuclear explosions, radiation whatever.

2. Creeper can hurt even minions in Hell who's durability is very high. His very hair/Shag is multiple extra arms that can crush or choke ( or even stuff themselves down) a wind pipe fighting all the way with amazing strength.

3. Creepers talons have cut steel so will damage GG who was put down by police gunfire and believed dead in his first encounter with Ult Spidey atop the bridge. He can be injured so he can be put down

In all honesty as I see it it will be a beautiful and quite ferocious battle between GG and Creeper where both can truly let loose.

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#12  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1:

the scan of the explosion isn't out of context at all. he has healled on several occssions from major damage before the smoke clears. when Proteus had him he healed from every torture instantly. when he devoured and disolved him he was on his feet next panel. show me a single thing that has ever put Creeper down for any time. He's battled the ikes of Hermes ( as fsst as Flash) and taken everything he can dish out in Wonderwoman.

I will show this scan.

And it seems very possible to blow him to pieces for a Temporary KO.

Shaw on the other hand will have a much harder time with 2 on one.

also while his taking down the JLA was a prep feat ( and yes sshaw is a prep master) he never used prep to take down Cold or Mirror mater. He was following Cold and forced to act before he wasm ready so he was comoletely un prepped. MM was a team mate who turned sides and it ws pure reaction. As for the Flash one he was also caught by surprise and had to come up with a way to turn certain stomping into victory since Wally thought he was the threat not the Durlans

If I remember right Captain Cold was drunk when Shaw fought him and thus much slower in reaction or coherent thought for that matter.

Mirror Master is impressive but as we all know MM can stomp Superman in battles so it seem very much out of character to me MM didnt go into the Mirror Dimension and kill Shaw from there. Was there a reason MM didnt turn Shaw into Glass or kill him thru Shaw's Eye like all these crappy Battle Threads of MM vs whoever?

In issue 22 of Flash Mark did get the drop on wally and put him down because of his stealth. But in Issue 9 Wally in fact attacked an unprepared Mark. Had him well untrully on the ropes and only that when he was coming it to finish the job and Mark activated the blinding strobe of his baton did Mark even have a chance to react and turn the battle. Just for the record back then Wally was not a light speeder. After COIE in his early years Wally was only like Mach 20 in speed. That's still a hell of a lot faster than anyone that Jennifer has reacted to ever.

Okay. Thats fair enough. I wont say Skrull Queen SW (Remember I am using the New Avengers one here) is any faster than Spider Man, however Shaw probably couldn't tag Flash at all at Mach 20 till Strobe Lighting him.

Wally was Mach 20 once upon a time? LOL how OP those Flashes become.

Jennifer will also have a a hard time fighting with her senses reeling from strobe blast, sonic blast etc.

I could easily Argue Spider Woman Venom Blast will KO Shaw before he can react. It is the Speed of Light Attack and covers a wide area as well.

Also Spider woman is very Adept at fighting Blind as well!

Here she handles the very skilled Madame Mask without using any Venom Blasts. Just Hand to Hand blind! Skrull Queen SW will not hold back on Shaw here.

So Shaw's Strobe Light will not work and I dont see him dodging or blocking the Speed of Light, Wide Range Venom Blast made of Unknown Energy that Dr. Doom could not contain.

Also What gives you the idea that Creepers laugh only works on Humans?? It has worked on Aliens and on other demons. I'll hunt up the scans as soon as I can. But it certainly isn't restricted to humans. His "sonic" laugh prior to the Demon retcon may have been but his paralytic laugh isn't.

Key word on the bottom. The Human Brain responds too!

As for putting down Green Goblin
1. Mark's Baton without using it's full charge or potency has stunned and taken out Durlans. That's a race that survive anything the void of space, nuclear explosions, radiation whatever.
2. Creeper can hurt even minions in Hell who's durability is very high. His very hair/Shag is multiple extra arms that can crush or choke ( or even stuff themselves down) a wind pipe fighting all the way with amazing strength.
3. Creepers talons have cut steel so will damage GG who was put down by police gunfire and believed dead in his first encounter with Ult Spidey atop the bridge. He can be injured so he can be put down

Well lets really look at Green Goblins durability.

  • Green Goblin vs the Ultimate!
  • Green Goblin tanks Iron Man Blasts
  • GG tanks a straight Fight against Cap america who has consitantly dropped 60+ toners with ease.
  • GG tanks Hawkeyes Arrow Shots
  • GG tanks Spider Man best all out uppercut
  • GG tanks gunfire
  • GG loses only AFTER getting hit with a Genetic Destabilizer, Gunfire, Cap Shield ripping his side open, Hawk Eye arrows, and Iron Man Blast ALL AT ONCE! He does not die. Merely KOed!

All this in one battle. GG Durability is recockulase! (that is my trademark word, feel free to use it)

Also GG has NEVER been dropped by Gunfire from cops. Not One Scan ever. GG also consistently beaten Spider Man with relative ease in every match. It was not till the last match where GG was heavily damage from Human Torch best Fire attack (Human Torch has the heat of a Nova) and then Spider Man finishes GG with with mutiple smashes of a 9 ton truck that Explodes in Normans Face. Norman then died. His Durability is one of the best in Ultimate comics for a Street Level. A real mini Hulk.

Also Shaw I still believe will have no time to focuse on the GG as SW will be handling him quickly.

In all honesty as I see it it will be a beautiful and quite ferocious battle between GG and Creeper where both can truly let loose.

It could be a good battle. However Creeper would have to be able to kill GG with more than small Slash and Rip attacks. It takes alot to even put GG down. Meanwhile I see no evidence of Blowing Creeper up like those Blast Dorrs, The Tank, or simply Ash Creeper with a steady Plasma Fire Attack. Like he does on Cap here only Creeper has no Shield to hide behind. Also notice how the 5 toner Ultimate Cap is struggling with the force of the Plasma Fire attack.

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#13  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2:

I will show this scan.

And it seems very possible to blow him to pieces for a Temporary KO.

I already showed that scan. That was after experiments were done on his body to reduce his regeneration and he was attacked by dozens of Hyenas enhanced in the same way he was. As soon as his healing factor returned he simply came back to life. If he hadn't lost it he would have healed as he was hurt just like normal.

If I remember right Captain Cold was drunk when Shaw fought him and thus much slower in reaction or coherent thought for that matter.

That scan was only one of the few times Shaw has taken on Cold that I've shown. In the other he wasn't drunk and had all his normal ability. Plus it was taken from when he had finally been given "the one true Manhunter Baton", the most powerful energy baton of the Manhunter cult that the grand master had been trying to find the perfect true manhunter/perfect justice for for centuries. That baton sort of made it unfair for Cold since it really does make him around Magneto level of magnetic control.

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Snart was most definitely not drunk here.

Mirror Master is impressive but as we all know MM can stomp Superman in battles so it seem very much out of character to me MM didnt go into the Mirror Dimension and kill Shaw from there. Was there a reason MM didnt turn Shaw into Glass or kill him thru Shaw's Eye like all these crappy Battle Threads of MM vs whoever?

Yes, because shaw used his magnetic Pulse to simply shut down MM's tech and everything MM does is tech.

Okay. Thats fair enough. I wont say Skrull Queen SW (Remember I am using the New Avengers one here) is any faster than Spider Man, however Shaw probably couldn't tag Flash at all at Mach 20 till Strobe Lighting him.

Quite frankly until he used the strobe to dazzle Wally and put him off he was getting his but handed to him. Still he does have the strobe in the baton, and the sonics. enough to disorient anyone for a while. He also wears quite a padded uniform with plenty of armor. I Doubt SW is getting a chance to finish him before he pulls one of or both these off. Plus he has a certain sense advantage already shown- he's even sensed courtesy of his mask when he's targeted, not to mention monitoring biological information.

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. Those scans account for the Strobe but not the Sonics and with his sensor mask he will know that the dazzling light didn't put her under enough stress so he will know to use both.So tell me how well does she fight both blind and deaf???

Also GG has NEVER been dropped by Gunfire from cops.

I didn't say dropped, I said put down. Four separate sites I've been to including one of Marvels own confirm that with almost these exact words.

Parker tried to subdue the monster, their fight carrying them towards the city and climaxing atop a bridge, where police marksmen riddled Norman with gunfire. Badly injured, Norman lunged at Spider-Man, missed, and plunged into the waters below, apparently drowning. Informing the police that the goblin was his mutated father, a distraught Harry was taken away for questioning and his own protection.

.It's a shame that scan was before the Demon retcon. Also before he used his laugh on the aliens before taking over the space craft he crashed. Not only that they were from when his laugh was referred to as a sonic laugh, not a paralytic laugh.

Here we see him fighting god's ( admittedly Hermes was drained), dodging light speed attacks, fighting dozens of things like himself ( not human who his laugh affected). Ohh and tell me again how the plasma is going to burn him because in the two before the last one he laughs at intense flame and walks through it ( that would be flame like human Torch's that was how you described GG's Plasma wasn't it). It also explains that after experimenting on him it's been determined his hayflack limit is infinite. Also I think your forgetting the main attack of the manhunter baton. It's a blaster that has been used to bring down Green Lanterns ( the enemy of every Manhunter except Mark- well not anymore anyway). Are you saying that GG can withstand more than a GL shield???.

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#14  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1:

I already showed that scan. That was after experiments were done on his body to reduce his regeneration and he was attacked by dozens of Hyenas enhanced in the same way he was. As soon as his healing factor returned he simply came back to life. If he hadn't lost it he would have healed as he was hurt just like normal.

Okay. I still se no scans of him tanking a Tank Exploding Blast without being affected. To do so would suggest he is more durable than Luke Cage which is clearly above street Level for Sure.

That scan was only one of the few times Shaw has taken on Cold that I've shown. In the other he wasn't drunk and had all his normal ability. Plus it was taken from when he had finally been given "the one true Manhunter Baton", the most powerful energy baton of the Manhunter cult that the grand master had been trying to find the perfect true manhunter/perfect justice for for centuries. That baton sort of made it unfair for Cold since it really does make him around Magneto level of magnetic control.

All good I guess. I still rate it kinda PS then since Manhunter was easily blitz by Flash like you stated yet MM or Cap Cold who react to FTL speeds cannot attack first 0_0. Makes no sense. Spider Woman consistently is on Spideys level of speed as is Green Goblin.

Snart was most definitely not drunk here.

spoiler tag does not work.

Yes, because shaw used his magnetic Pulse to simply shut down MM's tech and everything MM does is tech.

That makes more sense. I thought MM went beyond Tech means to do his Mirror Dimension. Good to know for future Magneto vs MM debates lol.

Quite frankly until he used the strobe to dazzle Wally and put him off he was getting his but handed to him. Still he does have the strobe in the baton, and the sonics. enough to disorient anyone for a while. He also wears quite a padded uniform with plenty of armor. I Doubt SW is getting a chance to finish him before he pulls one of or both these off. Plus he has a certain sense advantage already shown- he's even sensed courtesy of his mask when he's targeted, not to mention monitoring biological information.

He can be aware of being targeted, however like Spidey speed SW here he will not, and should not, be able to react to the info he receives. Also I still see no way of him dodging or reacting to Light speed Venom Blast at all.Her main form of attack. He wont even expect her Venom Blast as he has no idea of her abilities.

. Those scans account for the Strobe but not the Sonics and with his sensor mask he will know that the dazzling light didn't put her under enough stress so he will know to use both.So tell me how well does she fight both blind and deaf???

As seen she can fight Blind. If she was deaf as well? She again always have her Chain Reacting Area of Effect Venom Blasts.

Also she has major speed in flight. How effective is the range on the sonics? Is it area or directed sonics? Im very sure Spider woman will adapt like she has to everything else

Spider Woman has been a triple Agent for SHIELD, HYDRA, and the Skrull EMPIRE with neither knowing the other. She was able to remain of SHIELDs Grid for 2 straight years. Fact is Spider Woman is extremely skilled and intelligent.

She was skilled enough to be trained By Task Master.

Then Beat Task Master along with many Hydra Agents in H2H!

Point is she is by far better skill fighter (Train by SHIELD, Hydra, Task Master, Fury, and Skrull Kingdom) than Shaw who is better with Prep.

I didn't say dropped, I said put down. Four separate sites I've been to including one of Marvels own confirm that with almost these exact words.

Parker tried to subdue the monster, their fight carrying them towards the city and climaxing atop a bridge, where police marksmen riddled Norman with gunfire. Badly injured, Norman lunged at Spider-Man, missed, and plunged into the waters below, apparently drowning. Informing the police that the goblin was his mutated father, a distraught Harry was taken away for questioning and his own protection..It's a shame that scan was before the Demon retcon. Also before he used his laugh on the aliens before taking over the space craft he crashed. Not only that they were from when his laugh was referred to as a sonic laugh, not a paralytic laugh.

Marvels own site is still a wiki.

Osborn first Transformations allowed him to deal with the Gunfire.
Osborn first Transformations allowed him to deal with the Gunfire.
Osborn learns his powers and Genetic Structure change completely after the first 2 appearances that you quoted.
Osborn learns his powers and Genetic Structure change completely after the first 2 appearances that you quoted.
As seen when fighting the Ultimate his Healing Factor and Durability was insanly high. From there after he was so durable that he tanks Human Torches best hits as well the entire Ultimates Team!
As seen when fighting the Ultimate his Healing Factor and Durability was insanly high. From there after he was so durable that he tanks Human Torches best hits as well the entire Ultimates Team!

Official Bio Scans!

It's a shame that scan was before the Demon retcon. Also before he used his laugh on the aliens before taking over the space craft he crashed. Not only that they were from when his laugh was referred to as a sonic laugh, not a paralytic laugh.

Fair enough. However as I shown GG is highly resistant to a Paralyzing collar that kept sand Mans powers in check as well Electro's, Tranq darts, and Pym's B***h Slap from Hell. I doubt this laugh will affect him completely.

You cannot say the same for creeper resisting Spider Woman Pheromones and not fighting at his best thanks to his human side.

Here we see him fighting god's ( admittedly Hermes was drained), dodging light speed attacks, fighting dozens of things like himself ( not human who his laugh affected). Ohh and tell me again how the plasma is going to burn him because in the two before the last one he laughs at intense flame and walks through it ( that would be flame like human Torch's that was how you described GG's Plasma wasn't it). It also explains that after experimenting on him it's been determined his hayflack limit is infinite. Also I think your forgetting the main attack of the manhunter baton. It's a blaster that has been used to bring down Green Lanterns ( the enemy of every Manhunter except Mark- well not anymore anyway). Are you saying that GG can withstand more than a GL shield???

Nothing in those scans suggest those are light speed attacks. I don not doubt they are ast but where do you prove they are light speed. Is Creeper Flash in speed now?!

However Spider Man does fight at his super Speeds and does not hold back.

This is the Battle from Issue 24. This is before GG upgrade and relied on injections of the Oz Formula. He was being shot up by heavy guns of Shield and being hit by Spidey 9 ton strength the whole time and was still good to go. Heck he tags spider Man many times (proving on Peter's Speed) and nearly killed Spider Man. This was before his upgrade in Ultimate 6 where he mutated further and was matching the entire Ultimates team.

I dont see what Creeper will do to GG that the entire Ultimates Team (With Iron Man) failed to do. Much less being effected by Pheromones making Creeper less aggressive.

hold back.

Also GG can jump Miles! He can easily help Spider Woman end Shaw with 2 on 1. Both with superior Stats! As seen GG is very fast on the jump and can easily SLAM Shaw to death for sure. GG is good enough to catch Spidey on the fly.

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#15  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2:

Okay. I still se no scans of him tanking a Tank Exploding Blast without being affected. To do so would suggest he is more durable than Luke Cage which is clearly above street Level for Sure.

I didn't simply ask for him out of nothing, he was simply one of the characters listed. I though he was a little over the level of many on the thread but he was there to pick.

All good I guess. I still rate it kinda PS then since Manhunter was easily blitz by Flash like you stated yet MM or Cap Cold who react to FTL speeds cannot attack first 0_0. Makes no sense. Spider Woman consistently is on Spideys level of speed as is Green Goblin.

It's not so much that Snart can react to Flash. His cold field slows Flash down so that he has a chance. In this particular occasion he wasn't using a cold field as he didn't think he needed to. He was caught by Surprise and again when he brought his gun to bare was simply shut down. It's handy having a weapon that can counter anything technological, anything metal, or anything with electrons ( like bio electricity or plasma - both of which I face here)

spoiler tag does not work.

It was supposed to be around the two pages of Shaw fighting Snart above from IIRC Manhunter 7 or 8, the other scan of Shaw taking down the drunk one was from issue 24.

He can be aware of being targeted, however like Spidey speed SW here he will not, and should not, be able to react to the info he receives. Also I still see no way of him dodging or reacting to Light speed Venom Blast at all.Her main form of attack. He wont even expect her Venom Blast as he has no idea of her abilities.

The fact that he can monitor and know her biological functions like heart beat and has enough experience doing so to actually tell a man from a woman means he can actually anticipate and prepare for the actions she has not yet done. Also how the hell is SW venom blast faster than light. It's bio-electricity. the movement of electrons They don't move anywhere near light speed.

Point is she is by far better skill fighter (Train by SHIELD, Hydra, Task Master, Fury, and Skrull Kingdom) than Shaw who is better with Prep.

There is no doubt that Shaw is a prepper as well, but she is not a FAR better fighter than him. Shaw was trained by the manhunter Cult. An organisation that is older than Earth culture. One that has assimilated the combat styles of many many worlds. Shaw has taken on and defeated the entire Yakuza on his own. He has infiltrated and beaten a building of Ninja and taken a sword that was a gift to his father. Shaw is a highly known and respected combatant. His prime enemy in his series as I said is Dumas one of the best assassins in the world who is several hundred years old due to his healing factor and has spent all that time mastering martial arts and combat styles. Shaw fights him regularly and yes he struggles against him but he holds his own.

Fair enough. However as I shown GG is highly resistant to a Paralyzing collar that kept sand Mans powers in check as well Electro's, Tranq darts, and Pym's B***h Slap from Hell. I doubt this laugh will affect him completely.

And how exactly does being resistant to a technological device equate to being resistant to the paralytic effects of a demons laugh that is likely more mystical in nature?? Does GG carry some magical protection talisman?? One does not mean the other is any less effective.

You cannot say the same for creeper resisting Spider Woman Pheromones and not fighting at his best thanks to his human side.

The fact is you can't say what effect pheromones will have on a demon possessed human. It might make it more blood crazed and fierce than ever. It might have no effect at all. There is no forgone conclusion about it one way or the other. It certainly gives a greater chance of having little or no effect

Nothing in those scans suggest those are light speed attacks. I don not doubt they are ast but where do you prove they are light speed. Is Creeper Flash in speed now?!

Well you've got nothing to say that SW's venom is light speed but your throwing that about, and at least one of those scans was Creeper dodging a Black light blast ( and we do know light goes light speed)

This is the Battle from Issue 24. This is before GG upgrade and relied on injections of the Oz Formula. He was being shot up by heavy guns of Shield and being hit by Spidey 9 ton strength the whole time and was still good to go. Heck he tags spider Man many times (proving on Peter's Speed) and nearly killed Spider Man. This was before his upgrade in Ultimate 6 where he mutated further and was matching the entire Ultimates team.

I dont see what Creeper will do to GG that the entire Ultimates Team (With Iron Man) failed to do. Much less being effected by Pheromones making Creeper less aggressive.

I'm assuming he still breaths?? Creepers shag/tendrils are pre-hensile it can hold and move and fight. He can simply cut off part of part of his shag that he can shove down GG gullet and choke him from within while it still moves around and fights him from the inside. Plus for all we know it will make his sexless demon more aggressive what with there being potentially a duality of effects. Make him even more maddening more insane.

No Caption Provided

Also GG can jump Miles! He can easily help Spider Woman end Shaw with 2 on 1. Both with superior Stats! As seen GG is very fast on the jump and can easily SLAM Shaw to death for sure. GG is good enough to catch Spidey on the fly.

If it comes down to that quite frankly Shaw can probably take them out on his own with a single blast by simply giving a full force blast of his baton- all it's energy at once. This is a manhunter baton we are talking about, the weapon the Manhunter cult has used for centuries to fight and take down the likes of the Guardians and Green Lanterns. Plus Shaw has the "one true manhunter baton" the most powerful one of all.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The manhunters using their normal batons as just blasters can breach the shields of GL's and Guardians a few times in battle. Shaw uses a more powerful one he has the "true manhunter" baton ( he was given it in issue 21 or 22 of his title) so his blasts would be stronger. He can finish this by simply cutting loose with whatever it has left and leave a swath of devastation

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#16  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2:

I think I've now loaded about every scan I have of both and listed the feats of every issue I've got. If your ready after your rebuttal I think I'm ready for votes.

Giving you final right of reply

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#17  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1:

I didn't simply ask for him out of nothing, he was simply one of the characters listed. I though he was a little over the level of many on the thread but he was there to pick.

Im not worried as he is by far not durable enough to keep from being blown into pieces, at least no scans you showed anyway when Bullets made him bleed....

It's not so much that Snart can react to Flash. His cold field slows Flash down so that he has a chance. In this particular occasion he wasn't using a cold field as he didn't think he needed to. He was caught by Surprise and again when he brought his gun to bare was simply shut down. It's handy having a weapon that can counter anything technological, anything metal, or anything with electrons ( like bio electricity or plasma - both of which I face here)

A weakness that neither Spider Woman or GG share. Also how do you "shut down"Bio Plasma? Its not tech. it is biological and your scans show only tech being shut down.

As for SW her energy is Unknown and no proof would be affected when Doom with prep could not affect it.

The fact that he can monitor and know her biological functions like heart beat and has enough experience doing so to actually tell a man from a woman means he can actually anticipate and prepare for the actions she has not yet done. Also how the hell is SW venom blast faster than light. It's bio-electricity. the movement of electrons They don't move anywhere near light speed.

It a Unknown energy, As Doom Suit registered it, and I showed the scan where it is.

No Caption Provided

How the Hell is flash so fast in the real world physics? Blame the Comic Writer. Its the facts.

There is no doubt that Shaw is a prepper as well, but she is not a FAR better fighter than him. Shaw was trained by the manhunter Cult. An organisation that is older than Earth culture. One that has assimilated the combat styles of many many worlds. Shaw has taken on and defeated the entire Yakuza on his own. He has infiltrated and beaten a building of Ninja and taken a sword that was a gift to his father. Shaw is a highly known and respected combatant. His prime enemy in his series as I said is Dumas one of the best assassins in the world who is several hundred years old due to his healing factor and has spent all that time mastering martial arts and combat styles. Shaw fights him regularly and yes he struggles against him but he holds his own.

Spider Woman beaten....

  • Task Master
  • Wolverine (Twice)
  • Nick Fury
  • Spider Man
  • Madame Masque
  • The whole Dark Avenger Team (minus Sentry)
  • The Hand Ninjas

Im sorry, I I dont want to come off as obnoxiousness, which I know I must sound, but SW skills seem far more impressive by leagues.

Heck even against Carnage who was a threat to anyone had trouble with SW.

And how exactly does being resistant to a technological device equate to being resistant to the paralytic effects of a demons laugh that is likely more mystical in nature?? Does GG carry some magical protection talisman?? One does not mean the other is any less effective.

Mystical in Nature Paralyzing Laugh (which is very painful) <Technological Paralyzing Collar that Neutralizes Powers (very painful and more impressive feat) + Tranq Darts +Plus Pym's Slap from Hell.

My point is its painful, whether mystical or not GG resist Pain like no other and resisted Technological, Physical, as well Chemical Paralyzes.

So... I don't think it will be as effective.

The fact is you can't say what effect pheromones will have on a demon possessed human. It might make it more blood crazed and fierce than ever. It might have no effect at all. There is no forgone conclusion about it one way or the other. It certainly gives a greater chance of having little or no effect

It had affected Symbiots, Meta Humans, and Aliens. Why not Demon possessed HUMAN, key word capitalize, at all?

Well you've got nothing to say that SW's venom is light speed but your throwing that about, and at least one of those scans was Creeper dodging a Black light blast ( and we do know light goes light speed)

........... Im pretty sure you miss this post then....

I could easily Argue Spider Woman Venom Blast will KO Shaw before he can react. It is the Speed of Light Attack and covers a wide area as well.


Also Spider woman is very Adept at fighting Blind as well!

How you missed that?

I'm assuming he still breaths?? Creepers shag/tendrils are pre-hensile it can hold and move and fight. He can simply cut off part of part of his shag that he can shove down GG gullet and choke him from within while it still moves around and fights him from the inside. Plus for all we know it will make his sexless demon more aggressive what with there being potentially a duality of effects. Make him even more maddening more insane.

Well I guess he could do that if he wasnt pasted into goo by Green Goblins spider Man speed and Plasma Balls that blow tanks to bits.

If it comes down to that quite frankly Shaw can probably take them out on his own with a single blast by simply giving a full force blast of his baton- all it's energy at once. This is a manhunter baton we are talking about, the weapon the Manhunter cult has used for centuries to fight and take down the likes of the Guardians and Green Lanterns. Plus Shaw has the "one true manhunter baton" the most powerful one of all.
The manhunters using their normal batons as just blasters can breach the shields of GL's and Guardians a few times in battle. Shaw uses a more powerful one he has the "true manhunter" baton ( he was given it in issue 21 or 22 of his title) so his blasts would be stronger. He can finish this by simply cutting loose with whatever it has le

And I showed Spider Woman breaking Doom Energy Field that held Ares, Ms. Marvel, Wasp, and Wonder Man!

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I showed Spider Woman Venom Blast are Light Speed, twice now, and SW has the speed and reflexes of Spider man, as in Faster than Shaw. I also showed Spider Woman is far Superior in Skill. Since its also Skrull Queen, who possess all the skills and memories of Jessica, she has no morals to kill at all right off the bat. In fact in character she never messed around.

SW would drop Shaw so fast before he can react with a last ditch Manhunter Super Death Blast.

Im ready for votes as I am at the point of re arguing the same things.

GG, make a rebuttal and we head to votes?

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#18  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1 said:

@CadenceV2:

I think I've now loaded about every scan I have of both and listed the feats of every issue I've got. If your ready after your rebuttal I think I'm ready for votes.

Giving you final right of reply

LOL Beat me to it. Im good. Lets vote :)

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#19  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2: do you mind if I reply to three points raised in your last post ?? I'm pretty sure I addressed both already but just in case

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#20  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1: By all Means. I am done after this. We will go to votes afterword.

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#21  Edited By beatboks1

I did show scans of Creeper surviving a ground zero large scale explosion that he was in the centre of and very next panel ( first on next page) he was still up and walking around.

Your comment was that SW is so much greater in skill. All those you've mentioned Shaw has beated equal to or greater and let's not forget he doesn't have her physicals so he has to rely solely on his skill and weapons. he's a normal human who has beaten equal or better and not all were prep.

SW venom is described as bioelectric. That means electrons and they are affected by magnetic. it's afact.

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#22  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1: I just want to say your dead wrong in one thing by a 100%

This is New Avengers Skrull Queen version. All her powers were more powerful.

Also as Black Widow said and Dooms own analysis that Skrull Queens Venom Blast are not BIO ELECTRICITY! Its a Uknown and more powerful form of Energy.

Fact.

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#23  Edited By beatboks1

@CadenceV2: : Black Widow it would seem said quite the opposite. In fact her eyes in the final panel are screaming PIS

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#24  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1 said:

@CadenceV2: : Black Widow it would seem said quite the opposite. In fact her eyes in the final panel are screaming PIS

No it was because that was Skrull Queen who had even more powerful Powers and the secrete Invasion was right on the horizen.

As seen here Skrulls were able to map the Genetic Code and Supernatural Powers of the Heros Perfectly thru Skrull Science and Magic.

As seen below (Last Scan) They were able to Combine Powers (Super Skrulls) or Increase a Single Hero's Powers (Spider Woman) .

As seen here Skrull queen is a complete copy in Skills and Memories. However as she told the Avengers her powers were Increase from Hydra (Lie it was the Skrulls, since she was the Skrull Queen) and as Dr. Doom found out and Black widow Question her powers and power Level were more than what was recorded.

BAMSKY!

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#25  Edited By Pokergeist

A Epic Epic Match.

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#26  Edited By Floopay

@CadenceV2: Fun to read, but I am way to biased towards the Creeper to give a fair vote.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#27  Edited By Pokergeist

@Floopay: You also like Spider Woman :)

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#28  Edited By Floopay

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: You also like Spider Woman :)

Jessica Drews is in my top 10-20 somewhere. Creeper is in my top 5. :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#29  Edited By Pokergeist

@Floopay: Booo.

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#30  Edited By Floopay

@CadenceV2:

Is the most awesome game critter created?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#31  Edited By Pokergeist

@Floopay: Your as bad as Ghost Nappa.

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#32  Edited By Floopay

@CadenceV2:

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#33  Edited By Oblivions_Child

@CadenceV2: You have my vote, great job both of you.

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#34  Edited By jashro44

I give a slight edge to beatboks.

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#35  Edited By beatboks1

@floopay I'll take the votes anyways I can gets them :)

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#36  Edited By beatboks1

: : : : : : : : : : ;

Any more votes guys

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I'll vote for CadenceV2 - though its very close.

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#38  Edited By Ferro Vida

Gotta give my vote to beatboks on this one.

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#39  Edited By Pokergeist

2 to 2

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#40  Edited By mavfan626

My vote goes to Beatboks

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#41  Edited By beatboks1

BWAH HA HA HAH

And the tide turns

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#42  Edited By Shawnbaby

@beatboks1 gets my vote I prefer characters....But I believe Beatboks had a slightly better argument

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#43  Edited By Pokergeist

Holy hell I really believed I pointed out superior power and characters with skill. Oh well. :( I suppose Ultimate Green Goblin was my weak link, even then I think I proved his awesomeness.

Looking over the match I would not have change a thing. Someday Beatboks I will beat you. You and Laflux are the only 2 I lose to time and again.

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#44  Edited By Strider1992

I will go with Cadence here. His argument and Green Goblin swing it for me. Good debate on both sides though.

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#45  Edited By Pokergeist

3-4

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#46  Edited By slimj87d

@Strider92 said:

I will go with Cadence here. His argument and Green Goblin swing it for me. Good debate on both sides though.

concur

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#47  Edited By beatboks1

@cadenceV2 it's not over yet. though honestly the skill arguement I just don't see. I often see battles against skilled combatants offered as example of skill but when they are from people with greater physicals against opponents who have matched equal skill and powerset it actually show cases a skill gap IMO. You cant say a character has greater skill when they've only defeated characters equal to those defeated by he character your saying has the weaker skill and they are well behind in physicals.

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Pokergeist

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#48  Edited By Pokergeist

@beatboks1 said:

@cadenceV2 it's not over yet. though honestly the skill arguement I just don't see. I often see battles against skilled combatants offered as example of skill but when they are from people with greater physicals against opponents who have matched equal skill and powerset it actually show cases a skill gap IMO. You cant say a character has greater skill when they've only defeated characters equal to those defeated by he character your saying has the weaker skill and they are well behind in physicals.

Well I made the argument so ofcourse I will say I put up the better argument :)

Glad to see its closer than I thought. I may just get my first win on you yet.

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Ferro Vida

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#49  Edited By Ferro Vida

For the record, it is a close game. I mean, over-all the quality of round 2 debates is much better so far.

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#50  Edited By Pokergeist

4-4