Smaug vs Durins Bane

Been curious as to how powerfull Smaug is in the LOTR universe? Would a Balrog strugle with him? considering fire would have no effect on a Balrog?

Well smaug is a ranged fighter, and a glass cannon compared to the 'rog, while durin's bane is a glacier. It would probably come down to chance.

Smaug. Dragons>Balrogs on a general note.

I think Gothmog, Morgoth's Balrog general would be a better fight.

- Balrog :

Defenses ; It is a maia made by fire and shadow. It is needed a very qualified elvish blade for stabbing him, and it is really hard to fight it without magic. Balrog's better.

Attack ; Balrog using some spells and attacks with udun flame.

- Smaug ;

Defenses ; His skin like armor, but it is seen as it can be disturb by dwarfs and hobbit without magic or elvish blade. Plus he has weak point under his breast. ( In this way a regular man like Bard killed him with black arrow)

Attack ; Smaug's dragon fire may better (since it is stated that it can destroy power rings) than Balrog's udun flame, but i doubt that he can attack with spells like Balrog, still Smaug can fly and therefore his speed better, Smaug's attack power a little better.

My vote goes ; Durin's Bane...

@erkan12:

Balrog :

Defenses ; It is a maia made by fire and shadow. It is needed a very qualified elvish blade for stabbing him, and it is really hard to fight it without magic. Balrog's better.

Well both Ecthelion and Glorfindel slew Balrogs without Magic. If you take the exact fight in Fall of Gondolin as canon, they did it without Elvish blades too: Ecthelion stabbing Gothmog with his helmet spike and Glorfindel killing another Balrog with his hunting knife

Attack ; Balrog using some spells and attacks with udun flame.

You need to read the books

- Smaug ;

Defenses ; His skin like armor, but it is seen as it can be disturb by dwarfs and hobbit without magic or elvish blade. Plus he has weak point under his breast.

He cannot be "disturbed" by anything a single dwarf or Hobbit can throw at him. He pretty much took on an entire army( albeit by surprise) and won. Later having grown fat and lazy and not having bothered to update his armour, he was killed by a good shot from a bow, something that would never have happened to peak Smaug

Attack ; Smaug's dragon fire may better (since it is stated that it can destroy power rings)

No its actually said by Gandalf that he "doubts" even Ancalagon the Black was it? could have destroyed the One Ring. It was a rumour and nothing actually confirmed by anyone

than Balrog's udun flame,

Feats for Balrogs' flames: cutting through Ungoliant's webs with their whips, something strong enough to bind freakin Morgoth, a guy who shortly after went and raised a mountain

but i doubt that he can attack with spells like Balrog,

What spells? When have Balrogs used magic in the books? Dragons most definitely have . In fact Glaurung has feats rivalling Sauron himself

still Smaug can fly and therefore his speed better

Yeah not sure about whether Balrogs can fly or not myself, although at the very end of the Silmarillion it was mentioned that Balrogs were "in the train" of Ancalagon the Black , greatest of the flying dragons

, Smaug's attack power a little better.

Yes

My vote goes ; Durin's Bane...

Hard to see any Balrog except Gothmog actually beat a dragon, even a weaker one like Smaug

@thegrayghost: Smaug is not one of weaker dragons.

As for the fight, Smaug eats him.

@thegrayghost

I read the books don't worry. Gandalf made spells for closing the door at Moria, and Balrog made it for counter. You should be the one read it.

Ecthelion the Fountain is one of the strongest Elf in history, and i'm sure he can use some spells, and it is a high possibilty he used 'Goblin Cleaver'.

And for Glorfindel of Gondolin, he was not a regular elf too, he manage to defeat Witch-King and made a prediction that no mortal man would ever destroy the Witch-King. High possibility that he can use spells.

@erkan12:

I read the books don't worry. Gandalf made spells for closing the door at Moria, and Balrog made it for counter. You should be the one read it.

Yes, indeed he did. My bad. I thought he had broken it down with sheer force. Its been a while since I read LOTR. Still its nowhere near Dragon level magic

Ecthelion the Fountain is one of the strongest Elf in history, and i'm sure he can use some spells, and it is a high possibilty he used 'Goblin Cleaver'.

Ok firstly Ecthelion was not a fountain lol

Doubtful about how much many spells Ecthelion knew, certainly Elvish magic was not "shine a light out of my staff to chase away Nazgul" Gandalf magic. At best they could disguise themselves somewhat. In fact the only elf showing actual proper high level magic feats was Luthien, and she was half a Maiar

And for Glorfindel of Gondolin, he was not a regular elf too, he manage to defeat Witch-King and made a prediction that no mortal man would ever destroy the Witch-King. High possibility that he can use spells.

He was not a descendent of Finwe either. And those are two different Glorfindels. Both Ecthelion and Glorfindel were powerful warriors but they were hardly kings or the absolute top heroes( Fingolfin, Feanor, Fingon etc ) . So Balrogs did go down to slightly lesser level opponents than the top tier and magic is not really mentioned anywhere in the book in the fights

Dragons on the other hand were either cheap shotted or required power like Earandil wearing the Silmaril in a flying shio to beat them

Heck even Smaug crushed a town with his fall

The biggest ones like Ancalagon blotted out the sun and crushed an entire mountain with his fall

Balrogs really arent as big or strong

An interesting matchup.

First off, people need to stop throwing around opinions and speculation as if they were fact. One thing we know is that Tolkien was quite vague with the "power levels" of beings in his world.

@Erkan12 nowhere does it mention magic in either Ecthelion or Glorfindel's fights so you can't just say "high possibility of ____"

Also, "Goblin Cleaver" is the name of a sword (Orcrist) not a spell.

@TheGrayGhost I agree with most everything you've said. Just a few things to point out.

Yes it was the same Glorfindel, depending on what you take as canon. In his notes Tolkien decided that all elf names were unique and that the Glorfindel who brought Frodo to Rivendell and made the prophecy about the Witch-king's death was the same one from Gondolin.

Also, the only descriptions of "Dragon magic" I recall are basically hypnosis/domination of the mind which should have no effect on a Maia

Now then, in terms of feats we don't have a ton to go on. Smaug would appear more powerful simply because he leveled a small city. It was also said by Smaug himself that he had grown older and much stronger since then. Durin's Bane killed a bunch of dwarves but we don't know much else about his destructive power. One can infer that his whip burns incredibly hot since Balrog's whips cut Ungoliant's webs (which restrained Morgoth himself)

Defensively we know that Smaug's scales were all but impregnable, but he was missing one. If Durin's Bane could restrain him with the whip he could gut the dragon easily. On the other hand, the Balrog was killed by Gandalf the Grey who was not terribly impressive so I think the edge in durability goes to Smaug.

Both have wings and I'll assume Balrogs can fly (not even opining that argument) so they are equally mobile.

I'm really not sure. I think I'd give a very slight edge to DB here. I imagine the Balrog could wrap his whip around Smaug's wings and/or neck and hold him long enough to get a killing blow with his sword. Smaug could certainly take him out in some scenarios (dropping him in a lake etc) but I still say...

DB 5.5/10 majority

Smaug.

With tolkien i think that going by feats is not the right way, going by general lore is better.

And, from what i recall, Dragons>>Balrogs.

Dragons soloed nations, when balrogs moved in groups for major attacks and where "easily" taken down by the best elf warriors.

Let's remember that gandalf killed durin's bane, but knew he did not stand the smallest chance with smaug.

This should be enough.

Balrogs are usually smatter. Being higher on rank on Morgoth army. It's not impresive that Dragons wen't extinct. They seemed to be way too much arrogant like Smaug, this was his ultimate downfall.

Also Balrogs are essentialy immortal. Dragons are not. Their body can be destroyed, but Balrogs can be bought back if they posses a new vessel.

Many orc leaders are higher in rank than trolls, but would lose a 1vs1.

We're talking about a 1vs1, material power, not about teorical ranking.

and many balrogs were killed physically without magic and did not return.

Considering durin's bane was a fairly weak one.....

Durin's Bane surprises Smaug with his whip, drags him down and finishes him off.

Unless we go by the book, in which case Smaug stomps.

Very even fight in my book with the Balrog eventually winning.

Smaug soloed Erebor, a mighty dwarven kingdom but the Balrog soloed the Moria, the mightiest dwarven kingdom and only fell to Gandalf who died in the process (god, does Tolkien love it when the oponents kill each other...).

Smaug was killed by Bard, a mere mortal, just as Scatha, the other named Dragon of the 3rd Age, was killed by Fram. Aragorn is by far a mightier hero than these guys and Gandalf told the Fellowship that the Balrog was "a foe beyond any of you". Gandalf was, rightfully so, scared to death at the idea of facing the Balrog.

There is an Elf/Magic connection, but that does not mean you can just say "well elves are magic so ______ must have known spells" because that simply is not true. Not every elf had magical abilities.

The way you wrote it made it sound like you did.

No I'm most definitely nor saying that. I don't know how you got that from my post. Gandalf died killing Durin's Bane, I was just saying that Gandalf the Grey did not have many super-impressive feats and he still took down a Balrog. Never said it was easy...

@that_other_guy

I think Glamdring has great effect in that battle.

@erkan12: @atphantom: @assman: @thegrayghost: @pierpat: @leito: @that_other_guy: @erkan12: Bane will win as he broke Batman's back!!

I doubt the battle would be that easy even with movie versions. We haven't seen the full extent of Smaug's wrath and he tanked a whole shower of molten lava in Desolation. I'm sure he can handle a Balrog's whip.

I'm going with Smaug.

Dragons in general are suppose to be stronger than balrogs, but more than that Smaug was responsible for wiping out an entire dwarven kingdom. One that's inhabitants had a long history of fighting dragons at that. Smaug did this in a day, or at the very least it's described in a way that seemed very sudden.

Durin's Bane did the same to Khazad-dûm, but it took him a year to finally force the last of the dwarven survivors to flee. Perhaps it's not the best comparison, Khazad-dûm was an older kingdom and likely stronger, and had a rich supply of Mithril so was likely very well armed, but there is still a considerable difference in time frame.

Both of them were pretty lazy though. They both decided to take a multi-century long nap after their conquest.

I was always curious about what Gandalf actually intended to do with Smaug. He clearly saw him as a threat and knew he needed Smaug removed, but he didn't seem like he was intent on slaying Smaug himself. The dwarves certainly weren't going to do it when an entire dwarven army failed before, and Bilbo... Not a dragon slayer. The only plan he could've had was to either slay Smaug himself or try to make a deal with him. If the latter then he'd need the power to slay Smaug anyway if he intended to survive should the dragon refuse.

Of course if we're using the movie then

Gandalf is a little suicidal anyway, going into a place he suspects Sauron to be hiding and knowing he can't use his power to defeat him. AWESOME scene, don't get me wrong, but it seemed like a REALLY bad plan.

Gandalf also didn't have much of a choice in fighting the balrog either. He was kind of forced to do it to give his friends a chance to escape. So saying he slew the balrog isn't the best argument for Smaug, since there's no evidence that he couldn't have slain Smaug as well.

Still, my vote goes to Smaug the Golden.

Smaug.

True, but with Balrog's status as a Maiar, I don't think it'd be that easy for Smaug either. I'm pretty sure that you can't kill a Balrog with fire, so I imagine Smaug will have to go on the physical assault, and then get clobbered.

It's never stated, or even implied, that Glamdring was a significant part of why Gandalf defeated Durin's Bane

Balrogs were most definitely NOT "easy" opponents for the best elf warriors. In fact in all of the instances in the Silmarillion where an elf goes one-on-one with a Balrog, either the elf dies or both of them do. We also have only one example of a dragon "soloing a nation" and that would be Smaug. On the other hand, Scatha was killed single-handedly by Fram. We also have one example of a Balrog "soloing a nation" and that is DB soloing the (much greater) dwarf kingdom of Khazad-dum

Like I said before, I'm not 110% confident that DB would take this but I think the odds lean ever so slightly in his favor.

Also, it's never stated anywhere that Gandalf "new he did not stand the smallest chance with smaug."

@that_other_guy: I think he meant in general with the nations part. As in, most lores (other than lotr) dragons can be naton-level. Tolkien obviously had influences from these and couldnt stray too far from that power level.

I give it to Smaug. Dragons > balrogs in lotr, and outside of lotr dragons>>> balrogs. Id gove Smaug speed, mobility, str, and fire strength.

@darkbiscuit:

I would agree with that. Dragons are badass, no denying and trust me I love them too, but I don't think feats from other universes are relevant tbh

I definitely give Smaug speed and mobility. Maybe strength (though we don't have many feats for either of them to measure raw physical power), but fire strength? No, definitely not. A Balrog is a Maia of fire, it burns with an inner fire, it can generate and manipulate fire. If anything, Smaug's fire would be just another weapon for DB

I stand by DB winning by a very narrow margin due to the versatility of its weapons (the whip IMO is a deciding factor) and arguably greater durability (remember, Smaug was felled by a singe arrow, Scatha was killed by a man of Rohan. It took one of the Istari to kill DB and even then he died as well)

@that_other_guy: what the heck? smaug only example of dragons soloing nations?Elfs always diying when facing balrogs?

Did we read the same silmalirrion?!

Ecthelion soloed 3 balrogs before confronting with gothmog in the fall of the gondolin.

In the childern of Hurin glaurung soloed Nargothrond.

@pierpat: I thought Ecthellion took seven Balrogs, or am I mistaken? (Been awhile since I read the Silmarillion)

Anyway Smaug wins. He is far stronger than the Balrog, and has more weapons at his disposal( wings, tail, claws, teeth)

@mortium: i'm quite sure it was 3+gothmog.

Smaug would win every time.

@pierpat: Ok thanks. Like I said its been awhile since I read read it.

@lordraiden: Yeah, I posted my opinion of that fight over at: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/smaug-the-dragon-vs-balrog-737550/#reply

Also, to everyone who's saying Smaug would win because Durin's Bane was weaker, just remember Gandalf, a MAIAR, died fighting the Balrog in Moria. DIED. He only came back to help Frodo and stuff. But in order to kill Durin's Bane, he had to sacrifice himself pretty much.

Smaug was killed by a human. And as for the guy up top who says that Smaug at his prime wouldn't have allowed that, just remember that Smaug was greedy and arrogant, two traits that are huge downplays to his overall strength. In fact, he probably even knew about the wound, since Tolkien has said that Smaug had perfect memory of every piece of gold he had. So he probably saw his small wound and thought that nobody could get it. Then a human kills him with a single black arrow. A SINGLE HUMAN. What would a Balrog like Durin's Bane do, then?

OVERALL: Durin's Bane

bump

Indeed. But Christoper Tolkein claims that when J.R.R. wrote about Ecthelion slaying and dying in battle against Gothmog, his balrogs were "less terrible and certainly more destructible than they afterwards became."

Missed that, the more you know!

I do still think that a dragon is > a balrog in the tolkienverse, honestly.

Generally speaking, I would agree. At least where the ancient dragons and balrogs are concerned. Smaug Vs. Durin's Bane though? I'm not so sure. Smaug definitely seems like a lesser dragon compared to the ancient ones.

Well, he still was a flying spitfire one, he can't be that bad.

As in i remember cave dragons being regarded as lesser beings(even if the biggest dragon ever was a dragon with no wings....lols).

And honestlu i would not have seen gandalf winning against smaug the same way he won against Durin's bane

True, but Gandalf was a very old, angelic being (an Anuir), and so he was, in a way, perfectly suited to slaying a balrog. I don't believe that just any man, elf, or dwarf could have done it. Not saying Gandalf could have slain a dragon, but if you think about it, all it really took was a single well-placed arrow (granted it was a "special" arrow) shot by a lowly bowman... not a wizard or a high elf... to drop Smaug. Similarly, it only took one normal, human female... and not an overly skilled one... to defeat The Witch-king.

It's interesting to think about, but who's to say Gandalf wouldn't have been able to maneuver his way in close to Smaug and then use his lighting sword attack to pierce the same spot Bard's arrow went through? Obviously it didn't play out that way because that's not how the story was written. Still, it's fun to think about.

It ain't a normal armor, there's still magic in the mix.

IT had to be a man of that particular bloodline, with that particular magic arrow.

And when you shoot a bow the aim and the particular arrow are more important than the fact that the guy shooting it is either a low-class man or a firstborn elf.

Use his lightning attack....while inside a mountain?

Because the only moment he could have approached smaug would have been like bilbo, in Erebor xD

Not sure to which armor you are referring.

Of course not. I meant while outside, and speaking purely hypothetically. Obviously the whole scenario would have needed to play out quite a bit differently for Gandalf to have used his lightning attack.

I dont see how Smaug can hurt bALROG

As @pierpat mentioned, it wasn't just some lowly bowman. There was much more to it than that.

And the Witch-King wasn't killed by some unskilled female. First of all, Eowyn was a very skilled warrior. Killing a fell beast with one swing of her sword is a pretty good feat.

Secondly, don't sell the Witch King short there man. It wasn't just some grammar loophole that defeated him. Merry stabbed him with his Barrow-Blade which was enchanted with the power to harm the Witch King by a weapon smith of Arthedain and that broke the spell binding his undead flesh to his will, which allowed Eowyn to kill him.

It wasn't my intent to sell anyone short. Bard was obviously a highly skilled bowman. And the Witch-king was obviously a very formidable threat, seeing as Gandalf himself was wary of him and called him Sauron's deadliest servant. He was a bearer of one of the nine rings of power, for Pete's sake. I was simply drawing a comparison. As good an archer as Bard was, he was nowhere near the caliber of elves like Legolas and his kin. His slaying of Smaug, as great a feat as it was, was largely due to the simple fact that he was in the right place, at the right time, with the "black arrow" needed to do it, and a thrush revealing to him the dragon's weak spot. As formidable a threat as the Witch-king was, he was not at all of the same threat-level as monsters like Smaug or Durin's Bane. Even though he had a magical enchantment protecting him from harm, the fact remains that he was bested by Merry and Eowyn. How long do you think those two would have lasted in a direct confrontation with a dragon or a balrog? Ten seconds max. Eowyn was a skilled fighter, but again - not overly skilled. Certainly, she was nowhere near the level of characters like Aragorn, Legolas, Gandalf, Gimli, Durin, Eomer, Boromir, Faramir, etc, etc.

Fair enough.

Bard was obviously a highly skilled bowman. And the Witch-king was obviously a very formidable threat, seeing as Gandalf himself was wary of him and called him Sauron's deadliest servant. He was a bearer of one of the nine rings of power, for Pete's sake

All true.

As formidable a threat as the Witch-king was, he was not at all of the same threat-level as monsters like Smaug or Durin's Bane. Even though he had a magical enchantment protecting him from harm, the fact remains that he was bested by Merry and Eowyn.

That's debatable. The Witch King was a very powerful foe. Although I'm not sure how he'd fare against Smaug or Durin's Bane. It's not an open and shut case, is all I'm saying. And he was bested by Merry and Eowyn due to a prophecy, a.k.a. plot.

How long do you think those two would have lasted in a direct confrontation with a dragon or a balrog? Ten seconds max. Eowyn was a skilled fighter, but again - not overly skilled. Certainly, she was nowhere near the level of characters like Aragorn, Legolas, Gandalf, Gimli, Durin, Eomer, Boromir, Faramir, etc, etc

I agree she's not on the same level as the characters you mentioned. But it just seemed like you weren't giving her any credit in your last post. Even Aragorn acknowledged her skills with a blade.

Fair enough. Though, to quote him - "You have some skill with a blade." It's not exactly what I'd call high praise, but yes, he does acknowledge that she has some skill.

Smourg.

This must depend on whether or not it's book versions, right? There's a considerable difference, i think.

Stupid phone, i meant arrow xD

How the hell would he approached him while outside?

Unlike the film, in the books smaug does not land while he attacks, so once out of the mountain he's unapproachable, given that the eagles fear him.