Smaug the dragon vs Balrog

@syndicate: No, but I will respond at a later time.

@syndicate: Even so, the Dragons were what gave Morgoth's army a limited edge, the ground forces were being utterly annihilated by the forces of the of Valar. When Earendil killed Ancalagon, the battle was over, the bulk of Morgoth's force was destroyed and the survivors were forced to flee. So the Dragons were what supported that battle not the Balrogs, who were unfortunately involved in the massacre on the ground.

Gothmog is confirmed to be the largest and strongest of the Balrogs, lesser Balrogs only have one feat, and that was based on their speed. Meaning there is no evidence that they exceed the height which I previously stated. While on the topic of feats, the Balrogs travel time is not applicable to their combat speed which is different entirely. Based on maneuverability and flight, a lesser Balrog has never been shown to fly, not even at a maneuverable rate.

The part you mentioned about Melkor is a flaw. Melkor was seriously weakened, and Ungoliant had grown far larger after the events in the Valinor. To say a Balrog exceeds the power of Melkor is laughable, although Gothmog did possess more physical strength than either Dark Lord. Ungoliant would not engage Gothmog in combat, however her size at that time put her beyond the strength of a regular Balrog.

Immunity to fire isn't required here. Despite the fact a lesser Balrog has never proven to be resilient to fire, Smaug's physical strength allows him to defeat a Balrog. Smaug has incredible durability, he was able to survive the greatest Dwarven weaponry during his attack on Erebor almost flawlessly. Despite lacking archers, Dwarven infantry was ridiculously powerful. He may have had the suprise, but the dwarves inside Erebor would have been warned about the attack on Dale, and therefore they had preparation time.

Lesser Balrogs are featless with the exception of the speed feat which doesn't relate to combat speed. So perhaps in a race, the Balrog would win, but Smaug takes this 10/10 for a fight against a lesser Balrog.

@razul: They gave Morgoth's army a limited edge because of their numbers and air superiority. While their were probably thousands of dragons being led by Ancalagon there was only a limited amount of Balrogs. And no don't bring up that host of Balrog's feat from the Silmarillion it was a hyperbole. Ancalagon isn't comparable to other featless dragons as he was the largest strongest and fastest dragon of his kind and he was pretty much carrying the battle along with Melkor Souron and the Barlog's. The Balrog's were probably both in the air and on the ground or wherever they needed to be to help the army. The dragons turned the tide not because they were superior to any part of Morgoth's army you can't just say that because they helped stem the tide like almost any reinforcements of anything in Morgoth's army they were subsequently stronger then anything Morgoth had at his disposal at the time.

Of course but that doesn't mean that because Gothmog was the strongest that every other Balrog can't lift a feather because they're featless. Gothmog's feats are directly transferable to other Balrog's albeit probably watered down. It's like saying since a human being who happened to be anorexic and have cancer died by being hit by a rock so somebody else like say a body builder who can lift over 300 pounds will die to it too simply because he's human. This part of your argument is by far the weakest. All Balrog's that have been shown have wings Durin's Bane shows that he can fly and in the fight with Gandalf he flies. Balrog's CAN fly it's not falling with style it's actual flying. And pretty damn maneuverably too as the chasm in which the Balrog fell looked particularly narrow and he was still able to use them after hitting the water with that much force and from over a thousand meter drop.

Why was Melkor weakened exactly? Of course she had and more powerful which makes it even more impressive that the mere presence and the lashing of the Balrog's fire whips sent Ungoliant fleeing in terror. I didn't say a single Balrog could but maybe the group which rescued Balrog are. It's debatable but regardless a being Melkor was clearly going to be at the very least injured by fled at their mere presence hinting at the Balrog's power.

They have flames cloaking his entire body of course they are resistant to fire. What feats of strength? Examples of this advanced dwarvern weaponry?

That's like saying the entire human race is featless. If you pit a normal human being against something you take the average of what has been shown by the majority of humans. You would do the same things with the Balrog's. Travel speed may not be directly transferable to combat speed but it doesn't mean the Balrog's can't move fast in combat. Other wise how would the Balrog's have been able to flail their weapons or move in to protect Morgoth before he was devoured? Along with that how would Gothmog have been able to strike down numerous incredibly fast elf lords? I have given you plenty of feats on the Balrog's speed durability and strength and you have yet to say a single reliable feat for Smaug or tell me how he would even lay a claw on a creature fast enough to traverse the planet in a minute.

Lets look at it this way.

The Fellowship consisted of the most powerful and the most skilled fighters Middle Earth could come up with.

And Gandalf told them to Run

The Company of Dwarves barely have enough fighters in them
and Gandalf told them to slay the dragon.

@princearagorn1: @princearagorn1:

`use haki"

i nearly spit my drink out laffin

@easternwind: :)

Lol. I used to think I was the most knowledgeable Lord of the Rings expert in California then I found Star Wars and have realized that I haven't flexed my titanic LotR muscles in years.

Well, thinking about it, the Balrog is kinda like Satan, in a few ways. He has a giant flame whip and is made of magma. Smaug is a very powerful dragon. Being capable of destroying a city and a whole army of dwarves, and even took over the dwarves' place (hey, its been a while!). So, thinking about it I think Smaug would win.

@squidboy: Why is that?

@syndicate: We can't be certain of the number of dragons or balrogs, let's not assume any number because we simply don't have a clue. I suggested that the Dragons were the main fighting force because the battle turned on their entrance. Once again we can't be certain if Balrogs were fighting in the sky as well but its irrelevant as the Dragons were defeated anyway. That is correct in saying Ancalagon isnt comparable to other featless dragons, it is also correct in saying Gothmog isn't comparable to other featless balrogs.

Just like Ancalagon isn't comparable to other featless dragons, Gothmog isn't comparable to featless Balrogs, there is no evidence to suggest that any Balrog is on par or just below Gothmog. I'm sure some Balrogs came close, but it's never been demonstrated, we must base this on what has been seen and proven. Nor is there any evidence to suggest a Balrog could be on par with Smaug. However, a featless Dragon vs a featless Balrog is an obvious stalemate because we don't know anything about either of them. Gothmog is confirmed to have been superior to other Balrogs, we have no confirmation of any other Balrogs strength or capabilities, apart from Durins Bane and the speed feat regarding Ungoliant. The flight and maneuverability of Balrogs is not clear, the thing with Durins Bane falling through the chasm is either a showing of maneuverability or duration. Either Durins Bane was tanking the sides of the chasm, or was simply avoiding them, that has not been confirmed. Even so, it is not applicable to other Balrogs as we have not seen a featless Balrog demonstrate this.

Melkor was weakened from his efforts at capturing the Simarils, with the combination of fear he stood no chance against Ungoliant, perhaps at the time, Gothmog was more powerful than Melkor, but not at his peak as Morgoth. A featless Balrog would not have been more powerful than Melkor even at that time, but that's not to say Melkor was more powerful. Melkor never demonstrated any feats at the time when he was weakened, which puts the featless Balrog on par with him, but should it have been a time where Melkor was Morgoth, the Dark Lord wins. The same applies with Sauron.

The Balrog may well be able to move fast in combat, but we haven't seen an example of this, only travel speed. If the Balrogs had actually engaged Ungoliant in combat and proven a decent speed in combat, I would have a different view. You need to present more feats that are applicable to featless Balrogs, you have presented feats from Durins Bane and Gothmog and transferred then to a Lesser Balrog. There needs to be conclusive evidence that a featless Balrog has combat effectiveness.

The dwarves used steel chainmail and helmets that were designed to fight dragons, in fact they were actually effective against dragons, dwarven durability would have been a test for Smaug with armor that was specifically designed to repel the power of a dragon. Not only this, Mithril was also used by the dwarves who were manufacturing it.

As for Smaug, one hit with his tail destroyed the Great House of Esgaroth. His scales rendered ordinary arrows useless at Esgaroth. The Black Arrow killed Smaug, his body landed on Esgaroth and destroyed it, proving his strength, and it wasn't even intentional.

"There was neither bush nor tree, and only broken and blackened stumps to speak of ones long vanished" is a quote regarding the desolation of Smaug and the utter destruction of Dale which Smaug was responsible for.

@razul: Not going to make huge posts anymore.

Of course they're not comparable it doesn't mean they don't have the same internal organs systems and capabilities just on a lesser level.

Completely wrong. There are a limited amount of Balrogs while there is tons of winged dragons at least for that age. The Balrogs are Maiar spirits and as such probably have access to powerful magic. I disregarded that as it has never been shown but it must be taken into account besides that an average winged fire drake is nothing compared to a Balrog as the less balrogs at least have feats of speed and accolades. Along with that I need to find out if feats from the game BFME2 and BFME1 are canon or at least can be referenced as that gives numerous feats for an average Balrog.

I don't see for any reason why he would have been weakened at all. Did it ever say in any context he was weakened from his efforts. I've read that passage many times and have never come across something like that. All we know for sure is that Ungoliant was enhanced or stronger at that point and was about to devour even Melkor before a group of Balrogs scared her off. This clearly shows Ungoliant feared the group of Balrogs more then she did Melkor himself. I did not suggest a singular Balrog was greater then Morgoth only all a group of them.

Travel speed may not be directly transmutable to combat speed but it is slightly transmutable in that if they're able to move that fast in travel and it wasn't instantaneous teleportation they should be able to move relatively faster in combat.

Is this stated anywhere in the book? Quote please.

It proves his weight not his strength. The only strength feat is the house of Esgaroth falling which you haven't specified how large it is.

Like I said fire plays no part in this battle as both combatants are immune to it.

@syndicate: If they had demonstrated capabilities I'm sure they would be on a lesser level, but we need feats. I know it's infuriating, but it must be proved however likely it may seem.

The same goes with the amount of dragons, I'm not suggesting there were only 10, but I think 1000 was rather excessive. But nobody can possibly know that exact number of dragons that took part in that battle. It also depends heavily on how many eagles were in the air at the same time.

Regardless if Melkor was weakened or not, he wasn't at his peak. His feats as a Dark Lord put him above most creatures in Tolkeins Universe. And I'm sure Ungoliant feared the group of Balrogs, however I'm inclined to believe she had a certain weakness to fire due to the quip about the Balrogs firey whips.

I'm still not certain with the combat speed, they may have incredible travel speed but we still can't judge how fast they can move their weapons. Unless they intend to kick Smaug, that is unproven.

With a lack of visual evidence, we have to assume the Great House is the size it is in the movie.

"The wealth of the dwarves was not in gold… or jewels…"

"…but Mithril."

Mithril did Frodo well, and it served the dwarves well, not just the singular piece that Frodo wears but all of them that the dwarves manufactured. Unfortunately I can't offer a durability quote that relates to both the dwarves and mithril, but this can be excused as there aren't quotes to support everything in Tolkeins Universe. For example, the isn't a quote to support the Balrogs travel speed, but it is a feat of theirs.

That's fine about the fire, I think if the Balrog kills Smaug the Dragon will crush him when he falls, so its therefore a stalemate. In all seriousness I still believe Smaug defeats a featless Balrog.

Then by what you said up above about not being able to use transferable feats it's a stalemate. The only feat that an unknown Balrog has is insane travel speed and flight. All else are accolades or transferable feats. Since there's no way Smaug could catch a Balrog all a Balrog has to do is keep running so stalemate.

On the insane travel speed of the Balrogs, they flew "swiftly" from Angband to Lammoth (on the Northwest coast of Beleriand) so it is just a small portion of Middle earth and Tolkien does not tell how long it took to reach Lammoth. I see no reason to believe that a Balrog can fly faster (or slower for that matter) than a Dragon or a Giant Eagle. We just don't know.

10 points to Griffindor!

They managed to get their in the time before Ungoliant could devour Morgoth and I doubt she'd take her time. Along with that a bird was able to reach brand faster then Smaug was able to get to Esgorath so that doesn't say much for Smaug's speed.

@syndicate: But it's a fight, not a race.

It doesn't matter if Smaug can't catch one he can't kill one. Stalemate.

Stalemate or 6/10 for Smaug.

Dragon wouldnt have more than a slight majority in fight.

I give up now..... -.-

My perspective hasn't changed one bit though

balrog godstomps with the whip. The whip is said to slice thorugh anything and everything.

Where is it stated ?

@leito:

In the movie collectors addition

Hmm, this is interesting. My initial vote is for Smaug, however I think if Balrog gets a hole of the Dragon. He could kill him, Balrog is essentially a demon to a degree isn't he? Plus the fire element would prove pointless from Smaugh, so I'm thinking he'd have to beat him physically which could prove difficult.

Is that a quote from a character ? Peter Jackson ? A producer ? An actor ?
Tolkien never wrote that the whips of the Balrogs could "slice through anything and everything".

Is that a quote from a character ? Peter Jackson ? A producer ? An actor ?
Tolkien never wrote that the whips of the Balrogs could "slice through anything and everything".

@leito:

it said in a charaters card collection thing.

@thesacredonewithin: Ok.

What is the "Middle Earth Cannon" ? I personally divide it in 3 tiers :

1st tier : The Lord of the Rings (LotR) and the Hobbit. The books that were published while Tolkien was alive. Finished versions of his work, approved by the author.

2nd tier : The posthumous publications (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, History of Middle Earth), unless there are inconsistencies with the LotR or the Hobbit. Work in progress, notes, letters...

3rd tier : Peter Jackson's movies, unless there are inconsi with 1rst and 2nd tier works, e.g. no Elves at Helm's Deep (except for Legolas, of course) !

RPG, videogames, collectible card games, boardgames should not be included.

@leito: Even role playing games where lore is excplicitly explained? How are those any inferior to anything Peter Jackson does?

You're probably right. Let's remove Peter Jackson's movies from the cannon as well ! No more "The Witch King casually destroyed Gandalf's staff" or "Legolas would own Tony Hawk at the X Games".

i'm pretty sure both can hurt each other physically, but don't think smaug's fire can harm the balrog. probably smaug's flight ability would give him the edge, but he'd be severely wounded as well.

BTW being a maia doesn't provide you an auto-win. feanor was not among the maiar, but he was more powerful than any other being except for valar; even valar could not comprehend the way he made the silmarils. he alone, fought against several balrogs at once for a long time. though it's unknown if he killed one or more balrogs there, certain that he's capable of taking a balrog down in a 1v1 fight.

ecthellion and glorfindel also killed balrogs.. they're not invincible.

Ha, Feanor was more skilled in arts and crafts. If you want to see hardcore dueling prowess, look towards Fingolfin. That was hardcore. And have you noticed that Glorfindel killed his balrog by essentially body-slamming both off the cliff, while by the time Ecthelion, one of the mightiest elven heroes of old, fought gothmog, he killed 3 lesser balrogs and though maybe the best warrior, he had no use of his arms anymore?

Has anyone realized here that the only majorly talked about battles with Balrogs that the opposing parties killed one another. Every known Balrog fight which has ended in the Balrog's death also had the death of the opponent in it. What this is suggesting from what a few tolkien fanatics have said is that it takes the sacrifice of one to kill a Balrog. So if we deduce this from what others have stated then Smaug would probably have to die himself to kill the Balrog. So in the end this battle ends in a draw or the Balrog wins since Smaug can't win because he has to kill himself to kill the Balrog. Case closed. Balrog takes the win.

Balrog. He is way more powerful, than you can see in his fight with Gandalf. And one more thing, Smaug cannot burn Balrog, because he is already burned

You people are forgetting the Balrog brought down Moria and Durin, I'd give this to the Balrgo anyday, after all he is a Maia too. (we're talking about Durin's bane right?)

Isn't in the lore that whoever slays a balrog also dies?

If I'm wrong disregard, but if I'm right then doesn't that mean that no matter what smaug dies?

Book versions: Could go either way.

Movie versions: Balrog.

Isn't Durin's Bane pretty much Moria's equivalent to Smaug? In the sense that while Smaug evicted the dwarves from the lonely mountain, Durin's Bane evicted the dwarves from Moria. Each one's greatest feat is practically the same thing. Although Durin's Bane taking Gandalf with him, even if it was only temporary, may have surpassed any previous feat he did.

Smaug is a dragon, an organism based in Middle Earth. The Balrog (I assume you mean Durin's Bane?) is an immortal Maia from outside of Arda. Balrogs are spirits based in fire... Smaugs flames won't do any damage, and it is quite likely that very few mortal creatures could defeat a Balrog (Gandalf is Maia, not a mortal). Morgoth himself was saved by his Balrogs, so they're pretty far up in the 'spiritual' food chain. So because Smaug is a fire drake, the Balrog is at a distinct advantage here.

Smaug. Dragons in general are above Balrogs in the middle earth heirarchy

@thegrayghost:

So a Monster who met a party consisting of the strongest and the best fighters in Middle earth were told by Gandalf to run away from him vs a Monster who met a party consisting of mostly non fighting dwarves who got taken out by some trolls were told by Gandalf to fight him.

@soaringturkeys: No. a monster who made a party of people who could not handle a snowstorm and were otherwise , individually nabbed by orcs , gondors soldiers and er...gollum in a fight vs a monster who soloed *two* of middle earths largest and most powerful kingdoms and their armies at that time

Anyone can pick and choose feats. Few can actually debate

I'm going with Durin's Bane. He was a Maia, a powerful spirit and spell-caster, as well as being physically imposing and armed with a magic sword and whip. While we don't know exactly how large the Balrog was, he was large enough to break the mountain-side of Celebdil when Gandalf cast him down. So while Smaug's attacks will be purely physical, Durin's Bane is a being of both physical and magical power.

Gandalf's battle of spells with Durin's Bane:

Gandalf's final battle with Durin's Bane:

smaug probably

I guess you aren't part of that few since your rebuttal is just ridiculous.

@logy5000: Actually if were going book logic it took one dude with a bow and one arrow to beat smaug

@soaringturkeys: More ridiculous than what you posted? ha.

What's the matter? can't stand your own logic?

Balrog ftw

I say Smaug wins, because Gandalf fought Durin's Bane to a standstill, and if Smaug was a lesser opponent, Gandalf would have simply went after Smaug himself.