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#1 Edited by dewboy01 (1876 posts) - - Show Bio

Which J.R.R. tolkien's monsters win?

#2 Posted by N0tS0An0nym0us (907 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewboy01 said:

Which J.R.R. tolkien's monsters win?

Smaugs best feat was burning down a city and bulldozing through an army of Dwarves.

The Balrog has even less feats.

Not a good matchup

#3 Posted by Quartermaim (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@N0tS0An0nym0us said:

@dewboy01 said:

Which J.R.R. tolkien's monsters win?

Smaugs best feat was burning down a city and bulldozing through an army of Dwarves.

The Balrog has even less feats.

Not a good matchup

Therefore the 2 feat dragon takes it.

#4 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Quartermaim said:

@N0tS0An0nym0us said:

@dewboy01 said:

Which J.R.R. tolkien's monsters win?

Smaugs best feat was burning down a city and bulldozing through an army of Dwarves.

The Balrog has even less feats.

Not a good matchup

Therefore the 2 feat dragon takes it.

Depends on how you look at it. By lore, pretty sure the Balrog should win. Balrogs are ancient Maia, equivalent to lesser gods or archangels.

It's not anything I would ever argue for super hard, because LOTR in general has a huge lack of feats, but I believe if Tolkien were still alive today and you asked him that question he would tell you a Balrog would stomp Smaug.

#5 Posted by Outside_85 (9927 posts) - - Show Bio

Smaug should take this, while the Balrogs were the muscle of Morgoths armies, he did create dragons to be greater than them.

#6 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Smaug vs 1 balrog?

Smaug stomps in this case.

#7 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

Smaug.

#8 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Smaug was the original pimp.

No further questions.

#9 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@N0tS0An0nym0us said:

Smaugs best feat was burning down a city and bulldozing through an army of Dwarves.

You say that like it's not impressive.

Smaug would win. He's bigger than the Balrog and has a lot more tools at his disposal, and is likely immune to Balrog's fire.

@Laurcus said:

Depends on how you look at it. By lore, pretty sure the Balrog should win. Balrogs are ancient Maia, equivalent to lesser gods or archangels.

It's not anything I would ever argue for super hard, because LOTR in general has a huge lack of feats, but I believe if Tolkien were still alive today and you asked him that question he would tell you a Balrog would stomp Smaug.

Nope. In Silmarilion Morgoth deploys Balrogs as nothing but support units for Glaurung, the first dragon. There's no question that he considered dragons more worthy assets.

#10 Posted by Dextersinister (6455 posts) - - Show Bio

It was also mentioned that the fire of intelligent dragon's was powerful enough to destroy the ring.

#11 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

It was also mentioned that the fire of intelligent dragon's was powerful enough to destroy the ring.

No, quite the opposite.

#12 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

@Dextersinister said:

It was also mentioned that the fire of intelligent dragon's was powerful enough to destroy the ring.

No, quite the opposite.

You're sure? Somehow I always belive in opposite.
#13 Posted by TheMightyAvenger (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

It was also mentioned that the fire of intelligent dragon's was powerful enough to destroy the ring.

No, it was stated that not even the fire of Ancalagon The Black, the greatest of all dragons, could melt the One Ring only lesser Rings.

#14 Posted by Bo88gdan (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you people think that Smaug can Defeat Balrog ?

#15 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (19517 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: You know, the regular way Dragons kill things? To be clear, I'm leaning towards Balrog..

#16 Posted by Bo88gdan (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: how can fire hurt Balrog _

#17 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (19517 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: Dragons can bite, and swish tail around..

#18 Posted by Bo88gdan (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: But Balrog is Shadow and fire how are bites gonn hurt him ?

#19 Posted by logy5000 (6069 posts) - - Show Bio

It took an army to beat Smaug.

It took a Wizard to beat the Balrog.

Smaug wins.

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: I see why not. Gandalf steel sword hurt the Balrog lol. That was with no enchantments or power ups. Then he powered it up for the kill.

#21 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (19517 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: uh.. use haki?:

#22 Posted by Bo88gdan (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Gandalf used a lot of magic to defeat balrog not just sword Swords with out magic cannot hurt Balrog

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: Know the Sword was causing Balrog pain as well. The Magic was more effective but Sword Jabs seem to hit him like a solid being as well.

#24 Posted by LubeMan (1067 posts) - - Show Bio

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/smaug-vs-durins-bane/741626/

#25 Posted by maximilian257 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, let's look at it this way. Smaug the Dragon versus Gothmog the Lord and greatest of Balrogs.

Smaug is not the strongest dragon, or the oldest.

Gothmog led a whole battalion of Balrogs under Morgoth.

Smaug took over a dwarven city and then went dormant, only to reawaken and then die, shorty after, due to a black barb, shot by a human named Bard (the Bowman) piercing his weak spot.

Gothmog was a strong general who was finally cut down by Ecthelion, a legendary elf hero. But even then, Gothmog managed to overpower his opponent. Ecthelion only won by sacrificing himself by pulling them both into the Fountain of Kings, where Gothmog's fire was put out (and he died) and Ecthelion drowned.

Smaug was shown to be about 18-20 meters (from Tolkien's drawings). He was relatively young, but was the largest being of his time in the Third Age. He could crush stone quite easily and destroyed Dale and took over Erebor. He was also known to be exceptionally smart. However, he was arrogant and greedy.

Not much is known about Gothmog, except that he slew two legendary heroes in his time (not counting Ecthelion, since both of them died). He also led numerous battles under Morgoth's campaign. He was feared across the land and was the greatest of all the Balrogs. In The Book of Lost Tales 2, Gothmog is said to be the actual son of Melkor (Morgoth's original name).

OVERALL: Gothmog the Balrog. However!!! I'm only basing this off the fact that my battle is between Gothmog and Smaug, NOT a regular balrog, like Durin's Bane. But even then, Gandalf, a Maiar, fell (died) killing Durin's Bane. So a regular balrog would be, at the VERY least, a huge challenge for Smaug. Unless, it was against Glaurung or Ancalagon himself, I give this fight fully to Balrogs.

#26 Posted by MetalJimmor (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

@maximilian257:

This fight is between Smaug and Durin's Bane. Gothmog isn't in it. When people who know little of Tolkien's world say the word "Balrog" that's what they're talking about. If he wanted Gothmog he would've called him by name, not species.

#27 Posted by maximilian257 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Well yeah, but I did say at the end that even a regular Balrog like Durin's Bane would give Smaug an incredible challenge. My opinion is that Gandalf could beat Smaug, because Gandalf is a Maiar. So, if Durin's Bane could kill Gandalf, then I believe Durin's Bane (or any other regular Balrog with similar strength to Durin's Bane) would win overall.

#28 Edited by MetalJimmor (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

@maximilian257:

Being a Maiar isn't actually equivalent to being powerful. Case and point the balrogs in the first age who often lost 1v1 against the elves of that age. Also, Smaug's death to Bard was a one in a million freak accident stroke of luck. In other words, extreme PIS. Smaug soloed a kingdom, a lone archer should have stood no chance at all.

Also, bumping the other thread was unnecessary. We don't need two discussions for the same topic. There should be a third floating around out there too. Just stick to one thread.

#29 Posted by Penderor (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Dragons were said to be stronger than Balrogs. But Durins Bane is not a regular one.

I think they are similar power tier but Smaug should win.

#30 Posted by RogueShadow (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@maximilian257:

Being a Maiar isn't actually equivalent to being powerful. Case and point the balrogs in the first age who often lost 1v1 against the elves of that age. Also, Smaug's death to Bard was a one in a million freak accident stroke of luck. In other words, extreme PIS. Smaug soloed a kingdom, a lone archer should have stood no chance at all.

Also, bumping the other thread was unnecessary. We don't need two discussions for the same topic. There should be a third floating around out there too. Just stick to one thread.

It's implied that bard's black arrow was magical, he says it has been in his family for generations and has always returned to him.

#31 Edited by Chibi_cute (4588 posts) - - Show Bio

Balrog

#32 Posted by MetalJimmor (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Implied but never stated. Unfortunately Tolkien's more cryptic way of portraying magic works against us in debates.

#33 Posted by RogueShadow (11562 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Implied but never stated. Unfortunately Tolkien's more cryptic way of portraying magic works against us in debates.

I agree, lots of implied power within Middle Earth, we don't get to see it to often unfortunately.

#34 Edited by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright I'm here now all of you can praise Illuvatar. Now is this a specific Balrog like Durin's Bane or Gothmog or is this simply just some random Balrog spirit? Also are we using the movie versions or book versions or do all feats apply? Once I have my answer I can give you the answer and close this thread.

#35 Posted by Eisenfauste (8646 posts) - - Show Bio

@syndicate: Since OP didn't mention a specific balrog, its assumed to the average run of the mill balrog, book feats would be more consistent.

#36 Posted by Eisenfauste (8646 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll say smaug based on speed, better flight ability and his dragon scales, I can't see the average balrog getting through that with his sword, though I do like balrogs 10x more than smaug.

#37 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually if the books are beign used Balrogs are significantly faster then Smaug as a group of them were summoned to ward off Ungoliant's attacks on Morgoth and they travelled all the way from Utumno to the other side of Middle Earth in less then a minute. So speed advantage is firmly in the Balrog's court. Now that I know it's book versions I can say that it is the balrogs with ease. If it was movie versions Smaug would have a better chance but it would still be debatable.

Would you like some feats?

#38 Posted by Outside_85 (9927 posts) - - Show Bio

@eisenfauste: The problem is that Tolkien was not very specific about what a Balrog was even capable of or looked like, only that they were powerful enough to rival the greatest of the elves.

The only thing that's really concrete about them is that they were Maia, the same kind of creatures that coughed up Sauron but of a lesser stature like the Wizards.

If we are talking about Durins Bane, the only really well known Balrog, we can assume it is powerful enough to rival Smaug as it was the dwarves waking it that caused the Kingdom of Moria's eventual collapse. The movie version can probably compete with the dragon on a physical level, the book version however had magic to rival that of Gandalf the Grey.

#39 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Actually magic that could overpower Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf tried to hold the balrog back but it was powerful enough that is simply shattered Gandalf's spell to the point where Gandalf had to flee. He also has given his Balrogs decent durability speed and strength feats you just have to look for them. Honestly I believe a balrog could beat Smaug in either the books or movies but it's a definite stomp book wise movie wise is debatable but probably the balrogs.

#40 Edited by Razul (264 posts) - - Show Bio

A specification would have been nice, because Gothmog is capable of winning here.

Assuming it's a regular Balrog, Smaug should win.

#41 Posted by Eisenfauste (8646 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: I agree if it was Durins Bane it would be different, but since OP stated it as a balrog I assume its your average non-feated balrog.

#42 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by Razul (264 posts) - - Show Bio

@syndicate: There is a significant physical difference between a regular Balrog and the known Winged Dragons. There is a massive lack of feats for regular Balrogs. And the feats that have been demonstrated, have hardly been shown in battle. Size matters here, and this is something that swings in Smaug's favor again. A lesser Balrog is said to have been 3 times the size of any average man. It's safe to say Smaug exceeds this height by a great amount. The point you brought up regarding Ungoliant and Balrogs speed feats are interesting, and very impressive, but ineffective. Smaug's flight allows him to avoid any attacks from the Balrog, not only this but combined with his physical attributes, he is capable of picking up the Balrog and dropping it wherever he wishes. This is all based on feats that have, or have not, been shown regarding Balrogs.

Durin's Bane and Gothmog are excluded here simply because they aren't regular Balrogs. Gothmog is more than capable of taking on any Dragon with the obvious exception of Ancalagon, and Durin's Bane has the chance to match Smaug.

#44 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

Durin's Bane exceeds Smaug and most other Balrogs do to. The size for Balrogs is not generalized it is based on the form the Maiar spirit takes on and can be directly their choice or a representation of their power either way saying a Balrog is only 3 times the height of an average human is misleading. Their MIGHT be a balrogs 3 times the height of a human but that would be the only one or one of a few. Balrogs also have wings and the ability to fly as shown in both the movie and the book. How would Smaug be capable of picking up a balrogs who is made of living flames? Smaug would either burn himself trying to pick up the Balrog or be unable to pick him up in the first place due to his weight. When has Smaug demonstrated a strength feat high enough to pick up a moving Balrog? Along with that why would the balrogs not move at all and willingly let the Balrog carry him off? The answer is he wouldn't as the balrogs would hack and slash at him until he punctured or dislodged one of the gems from his armor or simply made it impossible for the Balrog to move him. Along with that why would the impact from falling from a large height affect the Balrog at all as it has already been shown by Durin's Bane that Balrog's can apparently fall thousands of meters and come out from the fall fine. You also did not specify how Smaug would catch a Balrog when the Balrog can move from one end of Middle Earth to the other within a minute.

#45 Edited by Razul (264 posts) - - Show Bio

@syndicate: There haven't been any feats to suggest any Balrogs short of Durins Bane could match a Dragon in size and strength, in fact quite the opposite. During the War of Wrath, it was the Winged Dragons, not the Balrogs, who pushed the forces of the Valar back. The point is, Smaug has demonstrated his physical attributes, almost all of them at Erebor and Dale, and the only known Balrogs are Gothmog and Durins Bane, both of which are capable of defeating Smaug. But there is a severe lack of battle feats for the Balrogs, which puts them significantly beneath most known dragons. Considering this is a fight, I wouldn't expect Smaug to have to try and catch the Balrog, and despite their speed, it wasn't actually used during battle. Ungoliant recognized the threat and fled, there was no engagement. It's fair enough that Balrogs can fly, in fact I would expect them to be more maneuverable than dragons, but once again, there aren't any feats to suggest a lesser Balrog is more maneuverable. In fact for all we know, a lesser Balrog may not be able to fly at all. However, I fully support the notion that Durin's Bane and Gothmog could defeat Smaug, it's just not possible for a lesser Balrog to do so with barely any battle applicable feats.

#46 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

@razul: The Winged Dragons helped drive back the Valorian forces for two reasons one because they were formidable enemies but it was due more to the number they were released in and secondly because they were a new abomination of Melkor and nobody knew what abilities they had how they attacked or almost anything about them. Basically numbers and surprise. Thank you I know where Smaug attacked now can you name specific feats that show Smaug's speed strength and durability. I know quite a few you could list that would be ill advised as I am supporting the other side as of now. I don't see why as a species the Balrogs wouldn't have the same weapons abilities and limbs as eachother that's like saying just because your a human doesn't make you have 2 eyes or 5 fingers it's illogical and plain wrong. Now Durin's Bane and Gothmog were powerful Balrog's but it doesn't mean they had extra limbs and weapons then the Balrogs along with that multiple Balrog's showed that they can cross to one end of Middle Earth to the other in less then a minute and regardless of if they have used it in combat before it is an applicable speed feat. You're correct in saying that Ungoliant recognized the threat and fled. Ungoliant. At the point where they drove her off she was ready to devour Melkor so what you basically just confirmed is that this group of Balrogs was more powerful then Melkor. An impressive accolade. The Balrog maneuvered through the mine shafts and on the mountain when it fought Gandalf so I would see no reason why it is not as if not more maneuverable the Smaug. That is pure speculation on your part and I would advice that you cease that line of thought. They have translatable feats and direct feats enough so that they could defeat Smaug a young winged fire drake.

#47 Posted by Syndicate (363 posts) - - Show Bio

So I assume you've given up.

#48 Posted by TBEMrMcCoy (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Smaug rips it in half.

Online
#49 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Aren't Balrog's immune to fire. I mean, that's kind of a big deal.

And considering Smaug was defeated in one shot by an arrow to the heart....I'm gonna go with the Balrog.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#50 Posted by MetalJimmor (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

@syndicate:

The case remains that the balrogs and the ground forces were being defeated until the dragons came. Additionally, dragons were known to raze small armies and take on entire cities on their own back in the first age. The average balrog was matched by an elf from the first age. Even Gothmog, greatest of all balrogs, was himself only a match for the greatest of elves. In fact he needed aid of another balrog to slay Fingon. Dragons are often slain by lone heroes too, but not before laying waste to entire armies and kingdoms. Balrogs were the foot soldiers while dragons were the tanks and bombers.

The feats of one balrog aren't applicable to another in the same way two humans don't have applicable feats. It's like saying that all of Bruce Lee's feats are applicable to every human on Earth.

Travel time is not applicable to combat speed. Superman has often traveled thousands of times the speed of light, but is nowhere near that level of speed in terms of reaction time and reflexes. So saying the balrogs can travel a certain distance in a certain amount of time says nothing of their ability to fight at those speeds, and it certainly doesn't mean they are maneuverable.

Melkor was weakened and Ungoliant was amped during that encounter. The balrog host was not stronger than Morgoth, he was just in a bad position and needed aid. The balrog host also didn't even defeat Ungoliant there, they only managed to drive her off enough to free Morgoth from her webs.

The balrog that fought Gandalf in Moria wasn't flying, or else it wouldn't have fallen like it did. We have no information at all about how the fight through Moria's chasms played out, so you can't use that as an example of a balrog's agility anyway. It could've been stumbling around in the dark tripping over it's own feet for all you know.