#1 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting:

The Setting is at daytime, you may use the enviroment to your advantage at any means necessary the location is unpopulated, and there are no wild animals in the rainforest.

Rules:

-All DC characters are their Pre New 52 versions.

- Please Quote or Reply to the person you are debating with. This avoids confusion as to who you were talking to and makes it easier to pick up arguments if one person has to leave for a while. It is going to be necessary with the number of people that will be arguing at once, so please follow this rule.

-Both Teams are aware of the situation.

-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.

- You ONLY have 30 points to construct your team. You will be disqualified if you are over this amount.

-Victory is by death, knockout, BFR or incapacitation.

-Team chemistry does come into play.

- There is no prep time, and teams have absolutely no knowledge of each other prior to the match.

-Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise.

-Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise.

-Characters still need to reload.

-Your team MUST consist of at least 2 characters.

-You may not use more than 3 add ons for a single character. Team add ons do not contribute to this total. -No tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, or BFR.

-If a debater fails to show up for an extended period of time (greater than a 4 days) Than I will disqualify them.

Again, any additional info you may like can be found here.

Owie's Orange Salukis

Cardiac (Staff, no bird)

Elektra (No Powers) (2 sais,unlimited shuriken) (add-on: Muramasa blade)

Moon Knight (Full control of Khonshu related abilities) (Carbonadium armor, Unlimited crescent shaped darts, and steel bo staff)

Black Widow (Standard gear and Widows Bite) (add-ons: Making Reed Richards proud--Your characters know who you're facing and what they're capable and incapable of--and Somebody set us up the bomb--each gun user of your team is now armed with 2 frag 2 incendiary 2 gas and 2 sonic grenades have fun!)

Other add-ons:

It's dangerous to go alone here take this! (your team now has kevlar armor for those who cant take being shot)

Breathe in breathe out. (Your team is protected from phermones and poisonous gas now!)

My Team: [Black Ka-Spice]

Black Canary(no canary cry)-4 points

Black Widow(Standard gear and Widows Bite)-3 point

KaZar(Bow and unlimited arrows,dagger and spear)-3 points

Lady Blackhawk(two colt 45. pistols unlimited clips)-2 points

Vic Sage-(unarmed)-2 points

It's dangerous to go alone here take this!(your team now has kevlar armor for those who cant take being shot)-1 point

Can you hear me now? no, not really.(You can now move silently and not be heard)-2 points

Silent in the library(all weapons you posess are silenced.)-1 point

You've activated my trap card!(Bow and arrow users are now equipped with 4 explosive arrows 2 sonic arrows and 2 carbonadiom arrows)-2points

Good luck to Owie and look forward to giving all a good battle to enjoy :) (Gives first move to Owie on account of he makes Reed proud)

Looks at teams....Widow vs Widow and Elektra vs Black Canary....two tough battles there alone, lol.

#2 Posted by 0blivion_ (623 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck to the both you

#3 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't....wait....mind....working.....

Not an attack plan just how I'm getting through the jungle on my way to the conflict;

Ka-Zar is moving through the trees (from point "A", cause I like it there) slightly ahead of the lady's who are moving in that military style of up to 10 feet apart (side by side) while staying in sight of each other as much as possible. Vic is slightly ahead as advance using his ability to "talk" to the area to keep track of his team and find Owie's location. All are on high alert for sounds, movement, and the sort. Since we are moving silently as per the add-on we have no reason to believe you will find us first so are all ready to attack upon sight.

#4 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking forward to it Maniac, I'll put my post up tonight.

#5 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Cool, looking forward to it.

I wasn't trying to be rude or anything by my opening statement before, just having a slow day, lol.

#6 Edited by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

@Maniac2312 said:

Can't....wait....mind....working.....

Not an attack plan just how I'm getting through the jungle on my way to the conflict;

Ka-Zar is moving through the trees (from point "A", cause I like it there) slightly ahead of the lady's who are moving in that military style of up to 10 feet apart (side by side) while staying in sight of each other as much as possible. Vic is slightly ahead as advance using his ability to "talk" to the area to keep track of his team and find Owie's location. All are on high alert for sounds, movement, and the sort. Since we are moving silently as per the add-on we have no reason to believe you will find us first so are all ready to attack upon sight.

(I didn't think it was rude at all.)

I agree that, given your silence and Ka-Zar's jungle skills, you'd find me the majority of the time.

A question about the Question: I've been trying to find details on Sage's mystic sense but can't find anything more than the super vague fact that he can talk to cities somehow. Can you explain this power to me in more detail? Also, since the one reference I found specifically said he could talk to cities, do you have a reason to believe it could also work in a jungle?

Other question, about Black Canary: is she armed with anything here? I'm not super-familiar with her (or any of the DC characters, although I know them by reputation). I'm working on the assumption that she's unarmed.

So, if I was just walking along, I agree that you'd find me first the majority of the time. Since you're quiet, and have quiet weapons, and you have a variety of people with ranged weapons (Widow, Ka-Zar, Blackhawk), you could do a decent job on me if you took me by ambush. Moon Knight and Cardiac are more or less immune to most if not all of your attacks, so you're going to have a very hard time defeating them no matter what. But theoretically you could take pot-shots at Black Widow and Elektra from a distance and if they didn't know it was coming, could kill them. While it's possible that Cardiac and Moon Knight could possibly still win (since you're going to have a really hard time hurting them and have no defense against Cardiac's blast), I still don't want to have to play those odds unless I have to.

So, since we have the Reed Richards add-on, and we know your team members and what they're capable of, we're not going to risk being ambushed. Instead, we're going to stay put and let you come to us.

Our teams are some distance away from each other. I figure it would take at least 30 minutes to an hour for you to get to me, even at full speed--and you're going to be moving more slowly than that, since you're trying to be stealthy. You have to get through all the undergrowth, over the river, etc. Since Cardiac is a 15 tonner and has his energy blast that can level buildings, he's going to use that time to flatten the woods in the promontory I circled in yellow, and use the trees to stack together a makeshift "fort" or barricade--nothing fancy, just some logs piled on top of each other Lincoln-logs-style, to make 3 walls in a triangle shape, each about 5' high and 20' long. ("Fort" is an exaggeration.) So my team can hang in this "fort" and wait for you to come. The trees have been flattened around them for, say, 25' in all directions, if not more. We have a clear view across the river. (Moon Knight will help Cardiac build it with his Khonshu strength. Black Widow and Elektra will hide in the woods in case you come by early.)

So, you can find us, and you can attack us. Your weapons aren't particularly long ranged, and the widow's bite and pistols aren't going through walls. Your best bet is the arrows. You can shoot the sonics or the explosives at it. Jungle trees are big, I don't think the explosives (I'm assuming they're about as powerful as a grenade) can do much against them. You may or may not be accurate enough to get the sonics inside. While Ka-Zar's no slouch, he's not Hawkeye either. And I think he's going to have to show himself in order to shoot. It's pretty hard to shoot from inside the treeline up into the air so that the arrow can arc down into the "fort," so he'll have to step out and thus be vulnerable while he's shooting. But in any case even if they get sonics in, Moon Knight's armor protects him against sonics, and he can smash it and stop it.

So you have to run up to the fort, because half of your guys are H2H fighters, and your ranged attacks aren't much good at this distance and with some protection.

Now, my team can blast at you pretty well while you charge (or whatever) my fort. Everyone on my team has ranged attacks. My Black Widow has grenades in addition to her bite, and can shoot at you with the Bite better from cover than your Black Widow can shoot at my team while trying to get to us. Moon Knight has his crescent darts, which while short ranged can work once you get closer, and he's extremely accurate. Most importantly, Cardiac has his energy blasts, and is going to blast the hell out of you guys. You can try dodging and all, but he's going to get a couple of you at least.

I didn't mention Elektra, because she's staying out of the fort, hidden in the treeline. If she can sneak up on Matt Murdock, she can stay quiet enough for your team to miss her (and you don't know how many team members I have, so you're not going to be looking for her). So once you attack, she's going to spring out and attack you from the back, using shuriken and then attacking with her sword.

So finally it comes down to hand to hand. You outnumber my team, but I outpower your team.

Let's say the two Black Widows fight; mine has grenades, so she has the edge, but I'm willing to say they cancel each other out. Black Canary and Elektra--I say Elektra takes this, if for no other reason than that she's armed and BC is not, and especially because she is armed with the Muramasa blade that can cut through anything. I know BC has a great H2H rep, but would be curious to see specific feats against other good opponents. Moon Knight and Cardiac, with their armor, can take anything Sage, Blackhawk, or Ka-Zar can dish out. Cardiac is not only far, far stronger than anyone else here, but he's also fast and agile, able to stalemate Spider-Man. I'm not totally sure of Sage's martial arts skill level, but in one wiki I was reading, they tried to explain how tough he is by saying he could beat two guard dogs and their handler. If that's his best showing, then he's in trouble! (I'm assuming he's actually done better.) Between them, Moon Knight and Cardiac should have no problem taking these three down.

I know Vic Sage has some kind of gas and maybe he can use it to make illusions? I just want to point out that I have the anti-gas add-on, so that's not going to work.

So that's my optimal version of how it works. I'm looking forward to hearing your strategy. This will be fun match.

(I seem to not be able to do short entries. But now that the big strategy is done, I hope to be shorter in the future! I like your team, by the way, I appreciate when people try to be creative and go for less-obvious characters, which is what I tried to do too.)

#7 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Black Canary is indeed unarmed, but she could find some weapons from the jungle if need be.

I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow.

#8 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: OK, I'll try to address all points here, if I miss something, well, it'll just have to be covered later. also, If I don't get scans or anything in this post, I'll put them at the end or in the next as I'm scared I'll do something to mess this up, lol.

A question about the Question: I've been trying to find details on Sage's mystic sense but can't find anything more than the super vague fact that he can talk to cities somehow. Can you explain this power to me in more detail? Also, since the one reference I found specifically said he could talk to cities, do you have a reason to believe it could also work in a jungle?

It's the spirit of the city he talks to, the ghosts of the dead and faults of the city He "walks in two worlds". I see no reason this cannot be subjected to this environment, just less to comune with. Also with his illusion ability, it's not his gasses that produce it, they (gasses) are what help him with the spirit talk, it's an ability he's acquired to alter one's perception to where he even fooled Superman. He also has the ability to be invisible and make people do what he wants by suggestion (close range).

So, since we have the Reed Richards add-on, and we know your team members and what they're capable of, we're not going to risk being ambushed. Instead, we're going to stay put and let you come to us.
Our teams are some distance away from each other. I figure it would take at least 30 minutes to an hour for you to get to me, even at full speed--and you're going to be moving more slowly than that, since you're trying to be stealthy. You have to get through all the undergrowth, over the river, etc. Since Cardiac is a 15 tonner and has his energy blast that can level buildings, he's going to use that time to flatten the woods in the promontory I circled in yellow, and use the trees to stack together a makeshift "fort" or barricade--nothing fancy, just some logs piled on top of each other Lincoln-logs-style, to make 3 walls in a triangle shape, each about 5' high and 20' long. ("Fort" is an exaggeration.) So my team can hang in this "fort" and wait for you to come. The trees have been flattened around them for, say, 25' in all directions, if not more. We have a clear view across the river. (Moon Knight will help Cardiac build it with his Khonshu strength. Black Widow and Elektra will hide in the woods in case you come by early.)

Well I wouldn't be going very slow knowing where you are by all the noise your making. Obviously we will still be using caution in case some of your team come over, but we won't be sneaking by any means. Once we get to the river we'll obviously have to build a raft or some such other floatation device to cross it, but this won't be done till after we scout the area across the river i.e. your "fortress". By comuning with the forest (it'll be "screaming" in pain from what Cardiac is doing to it), Vic could know there are two outside the barricade and two inside if we make it there after your done building it but I think it's possible we could make it before then, this is when we'll watch and way our options. We could know where Elektra and Black Widow enter cover (not neccisarily where they go from there) and move around the bend of the river before crossing. Now I don't know if you'll be having peep holes in this fort but at 5 feet high it's probably not necessary, but thats still a lot of area to see around so it's possible (slightly) to get across without you seeing us. Would send Black Canary and Vic (invisible to your team) then he would have your team "see" him as either Black Widow or Elektra, wichever is on the other side of the fort. we'll all be in or near what's left of the tree line as that is where BW and Elektra would be, and get close enough to {possibly} take out the one he's not impersonating with a surprise nerve strike in which he is proficient. Having BC sneaking around him to help if your girls are together. After this he would have the remaining members of your team "see" who he just took out (if they were seprate). Of course this largly depends on how well you are looking in his direction and with my Black Widow and Lady Blackhawk drawing fire from the tree line on the other side it makes things easier.

So, you can find us, and you can attack us. Your weapons aren't particularly long ranged, and the widow's bite and pistols aren't going through walls. Your best bet is the arrows. You can shoot the sonics or the explosives at it. Jungle trees are big, I don't think the explosives (I'm assuming they're about as powerful as a grenade) can do much against them. You may or may not be accurate enough to get the sonics inside. While Ka-Zar's no slouch, he's not Hawkeye either. And I think he's going to have to show himself in order to shoot. It's pretty hard to shoot from inside the treeline up into the air so that the arrow can arc down into the "fort," so he'll have to step out and thus be vulnerable while he's shooting. But in any case even if they get sonics in, Moon Knight's armor protects him against sonics, and he can smash it and stop it.

"Sonics don't have to be within arms reach to do there job, so Ka-Zar just has to fire over your hide out with those, he also doesn't have to be on the ground and therefore in the open to shoot them across the river. He would be in the tree tops pretty much firing down on tour team, who are conveniently hiding in a 5 foot high cage. with enclosed walls, 20 feet long they may be but I'm betting the blast range would still knock you for a loop, not hurt you mind you but still put a ring your head. I also don't know what carbodium can do against itself, but since Cardiacs armor isn't carbonium I'm sure an arrow made of it will go thru, I have 2 so 1 each. Of course it's possible these will be blasted from the air before they even reach you, but that's a chance I'll take I supose, and if they are shot off after a sonic and couple explosives they have a better chance of getting through. Also since you won't be just sitting there taking it, you think those cresent blades and bio electric blasts will make it across the river? The only things I know will are Black Widows fire arms and she may be able to throw the grenades across as well, but she'll have to dodge a little gun fire while doing it and even I don't think she's that good."

So you have to run up to the fort, because half of your guys are H2H fighters, and your ranged attacks aren't much good at this distance and with some protection.

Basicly as I have it now, I have two on your side of the river doing the sneak around (none of your team can hear them thanks to my add-ons)so in theory, they could take both Widow and Elektra before they even know I'm there. Now, if they are able to get inside your little fort, I know Black Canary can beat Moon Knight in h2h, but that armour will give him a distint advantage, not to mention his strength...which btw may not be at top level, do we know which phase the moon is in? if it's a new moon he's pretty much normal strength which BC can deal with. This is where I could lose a member or two. The problem of course is Cardiac, who Vic could do little more than distract and frustrate and Ka-Zar will have to stop shooting arrows into the fort, but he should be pretty much spent the dangourus ones by then. Also, how well does Cardiacs armor stand up to blades? And three drawing fire from the cover of the opposite side of the river. Black Widow could also make her way across the river after some of the noise dies down when Vic and Canary take out one or more of your team or at least distracting them. Then she could come in and help with Cardiac.

Now, my team can blast at you pretty well while you charge (or whatever) my fort. Everyone on my team has ranged attacks. My Black Widow has grenades in addition to her bite, and can shoot at you with the Bite better from cover than your Black Widow can shoot at my team while trying to get to us. Moon Knight has his crescent darts, which while short ranged can work once you get closer, and he's extremely accurate. Most importantly, Cardiac has his energy blasts, and is going to blast the hell out of you guys. You can try dodging and all, but he's going to get a couple of you at least.

There is the fact that you may not even see all of us comming. Sure you know who we are, what we can do and even how many of us there are, that doesn't tell you WHERE we are. So again, he could just be blasting at shadows. Or, with Vic's help (if Vic makes it into the triangle), at Moon Knight.

I didn't mention Elektra, because she's staying out of the fort, hidden in the treeline. If she can sneak up on Matt Murdock, she can stay quiet enough for your team to miss her (and you don't know how many team members I have, so you're not going to be looking for her). So once you attack, she's going to spring out and attack you from the back, using shuriken and then attacking with her sword.

Eluded to above.

So finally it comes down to hand to hand. You outnumber my team, but I outpower your team.
Let's say the two Black Widows fight; mine has grenades,"Grenades aren't to handy close range, but of course getting there is the problem" so she has the edge, but I'm willing to say they cancel each other out. Black Canary and Elektra--I say Elektra takes this, if for no other reason than that she's armed and BC is not, and especially because she is armed with the Muramasa blade that can cut through anything "The way I have my attack planned it's feasable Elektra will not even know what hit her, and I'm not down playing her abilities, just saying (mainly) with my silent add on, I could sneek up on her first then take the blade (if allowed) to fight Cardiac and Moon Knight". I know BC has a great H2H rep, but would be curious to see specific feats against other good opponents. Moon Knight and Cardiac, with their armor,"Even Carbonium arrows?" can take anything Sage, Blackhawk, or Ka-Zar can dish out. Cardiac is not only far, far stronger than anyone else here, but he's also fast and agile, able to stalemate Spider-Man. I'm not totally sure of Sage's martial arts skill level, but in one wiki I was reading, they tried to explain how tough he is by saying he could beat two guard dogs and their handler. "He can go h2h with Shiva in sparring enough to impress her, as well as stalemate a master of cappriolla, highly trained soldiers, and take out multiple thugs at a time." If that's his best showing, then he's in trouble! (I'm assuming he's actually done better.) Between them, Moon Knight and Cardiac should have no problem taking these three down.
I know Vic Sage has some kind of gas and maybe he can use it to make illusions? I just want to point out that I have the anti-gas add-on, so that's not going to work.

The illusions are mind tricks, the gas is what helps him "talk" to the area and is a great distraction method so if he uses it here it will still affect your vision.

So that's my optimal version of how it works. I'm looking forward to hearing your strategy. This will be fun match.

There's my answers, let the games begin.

Again, I'll try to get some actual scans as well soon.

(..... I like your team, by the way, I appreciate when people try to be creative and go for less-obvious characters, which is what I tried to do too.)

Thank you, it's a flaw of mine, lol, just remember to use all you allotted point's when making a team like mine ;)

#9 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

@Maniac2312:

OK, thanks for the explanations on Sage's powers. Trippy comic. It does seem a bit ambiguous as to how it works, but it seems reasonably effective.

It's the spirit of the city he talks to, the ghosts of the dead and faults of the city He "walks in two worlds". I see no reason this cannot be subjected to this environment, just less to comune with. Also with his illusion ability, it's not his gasses that produce it, they (gasses) are what help him with the spirit talk, it's an ability he's acquired to alter one's perception to where he even fooled Superman. He also has the ability to be invisible and make people do what he wants by suggestion (close range).

The reason I ask about the jungle vs city situation is because I was wondering whether he can only communicate with areas that he is well-versed with. For instance (I went through all the Vic Sage scans in his folder), he talked about how he's very well versed with the city of Metropolis, and it seemed to me that that affiliation or feeling for the city was part of how he talked to it. So in other words he could commune with the city because he understands it. While on the other hand he doesn't understand the jungle, or at least nowhere near to the same extent. This feeling for the city may not be all of his ability to talk to it, he obviously has some kind of mystic sense in general, but that was my impression. So I'm not sure he's going to be quite so accurate in the jungle.

Hmmm...I just found this from Wikipedia (reading farther up in his entry, before the powers section):

The 2005 Question mini-series, authored by Rick Veitch, reimagines the character as a self-taught urban shaman whose brutal and at times lethal treatment of enemies now arises from a warrior ethos, rather than Objectivist philosophy. The Question "walks in two worlds" when sent into visionary trances by Rodor's gas, now retconned as a hallucinogen. In these trances, cities (Chicago, where he is a TV anchor, and then Metropolis, where the series takes him) "speak" to him through visual coincidences and overheard snatches of street conversation.

Does this sound accurate to you? So he uses the gas as a hallucinogen which allows him to enter his mystic state, but it is not (as you said) what he uses to actually create the illusions in others? I just want to make sure I understand all this before I try to put together a strategy against him (since I have the Reed Richards, and my characters will know this kind of info).

Well I wouldn't be going very slow knowing where you are by all the noise your making. Obviously we will still be using caution in case some of your team come over, but we won't be sneaking by any means.

OK, I'll buy that, although I think it's a fair distance between our groups, and given the jungle/water I think half an hour to an hour is a reasonable estimate. Especially if you try to make some kind of raft. I feel fairly confident that my team can clear the area and build the barricade quickly enough, before your advance team gets there. All they have to do is climb up a tree and start blasting at the trees around them, which when falling will take out others at the same time. Then just stack a couple trees on top of each other.

Once we get to the river we'll obviously have to build a raft or some such other floatation device to cross it, but this won't be done till after we scout the area across the river i.e. your "fortress". By comuning with the forest (it'll be "screaming" in pain from what Cardiac is doing to it), Vic could know there are two outside the barricade and two inside if we make it there after your done building it but I think it's possible we could make it before then, this is when we'll watch and way our options. We could know where Elektra and Black Widow enter cover (not neccisarily where they go from there) and move around the bend of the river before crossing. Now I don't know if you'll be having peep holes in this fort but at 5 feet high it's probably not necessary, but thats still a lot of area to see around so it's possible (slightly) to get across without you seeing us. Would send Black Canary and Vic (invisible to your team) then he would have your team "see" him as either Black Widow or Elektra, wichever is on the other side of the fort. we'll all be in or near what's left of the tree line as that is where BW and Elektra would be, and get close enough to {possibly} take out the one he's not impersonating with a surprise nerve strike in which he is proficient. Having BC sneaking around him to help if your girls are together. After this he would have the remaining members of your team "see" who he just took out (if they were seprate). Of course this largly depends on how well you are looking in his direction and with my Black Widow and Lady Blackhawk drawing fire from the tree line on the other side it makes things easier.

"Sonics don't have to be within arms reach to do there job, so Ka-Zar just has to fire over your hide out with those, he also doesn't have to be on the ground and therefore in the open to shoot them across the river. He would be in the tree tops pretty much firing down on tour team, who are conveniently hiding in a 5 foot high cage. with enclosed walls, 20 feet long they may be but I'm betting the blast range would still knock you for a loop, not hurt you mind you but still put a ring your head. I also don't know what carbodium can do against itself, but since Cardiacs armor isn't carbonium I'm sure an arrow made of it will go thru, I have 2 so 1 each. Of course it's possible these will be blasted from the air before they even reach you, but that's a chance I'll take I supose, and if they are shot off after a sonic and couple explosives they have a better chance of getting through. Also since you won't be just sitting there taking it, you think those cresent blades and bio electric blasts will make it across the river? The only things I know will are Black Widows fire arms and she may be able to throw the grenades across as well, but she'll have to dodge a little gun fire while doing it and even I don't think she's that good."

Basicly as I have it now, I have two on your side of the river doing the sneak around (none of your team can hear them thanks to my add-ons)so in theory, they could take both Widow and Elektra before they even know I'm there. Now, if they are able to get inside your little fort, I know Black Canary can beat Moon Knight in h2h, but that armour will give him a distint advantage, not to mention his strength...which btw may not be at top level, do we know which phase the moon is in? if it's a new moon he's pretty much normal strength which BC can deal with. This is where I could lose a member or two. The problem of course is Cardiac, who Vic could do little more than distract and frustrate and Ka-Zar will have to stop shooting arrows into the fort, but he should be pretty much spent the dangourus ones by then. Also, how well does Cardiacs armor stand up to blades? And three drawing fire from the cover of the opposite side of the river. Black Widow could also make her way across the river after some of the noise dies down when Vic and Canary take out one or more of your team or at least distracting them. Then she could come in and help with Cardiac.

OK, given my better understanding of Question's powers--I figured the degree to which he could talk to the jungle was less clear than what you're saying--then they'll all stay together throughout, and Elektra will stay with the group once they're all in the barricade. This will enable them to not worry about their location being mystically divined, or to worry about whether someone coming up to the barricade is a friend or foe.

There aren't going to be any peep holes, but my team will be looking over the edge in all directions, keeping a close watch. While I can believe they might not see Sage if invisible, arrows are fairly visible and once Ka-Zar starts firing, then they'll have his location pinpointed, which will enable Cardiac to take out the whole tree he's in. I'm not sure whether Ka-Zar's going to be able to hit inside the barricade with the arrows. It's pretty darn hard to shoot from inside a treetop, with all the foliage. I'm sure he's decent with a bow, being a hunter and all, but do you have any good archery feats for him? Shooting speed is partly the issue. How many can he get off before being shot at himself?

I'm also not sure whether Sage can make BC invisible.

I'd say there's a chance of my team being shaken by the explosive/sonic arrows. Elektra is the least capable of dealing with a nearby explosion (Widow's suit provides a low degree of durability). But she'd also be good at jumping out if she saw them coming, and since your distance weapons aren't super good at that range, she wouldn't have too much to worry about when she was out. And of course, I'll be doing the same to you with grenades when you get closer.

I don't know about the carbonadium arrows on carbonadium armor. I'm willing to say it might possibly make a hole. But on the other hand, Moon Knight can catch arrows, so I'm not worried about that.

In terms of Cardiac, his armor is a vibranium mesh, which means it should absorb kinetic energy like that of the arrow's momentum. Vibranium is less tough than pure adamantium, but I would say that it might be harder than carbonadium. It's bullet proof and capable of standing up to attacks by the Rhino, etc., so I imagine normal blades are going to have no effect.

In any case, they're on the lookout for attacks, so I don't think that they're going to be hit by the carbonadium arrows from reasonably long range. They'll be too easy to dodge.

The crescent darts/widow's bite/grenades certainly won't work across the river, for either team.

I don't see how BC could really hurt him with his armor. I would guess he would not have a particularly high level of strength during the day.

There is the fact that you may not even see all of us comming. Sure you know who we are, what we can do and even how many of us there are, that doesn't tell you WHERE we are. So again, he could just be blasting at shadows. Or, with Vic's help (if Vic makes it into the triangle), at Moon Knight.

I mean we'll attack when we actually see you coming. We'll have a pretty good view in all directions, so I don't think it's that big an issue. I don't see you attacking directly over the river, using a boat would make you a sitting duck. So you're going to have to come up the promontory, which means you're funneled into coming from one direction. Dealing with Vic's illusions would be the biggest issue. I can believe that he could get up to the barricade and inside. I find it a little unlikely that he could take Elektra totally by surprise, given her general level of awareness and experience with the mystical herself, so he might try to take out Black Widow. Once we see what he's done to her, I think we could take him out. One nice thing is that not only is Moon Knight able to adapt to sonics, he's also been shown to be able to resist telepathic attacks from Psylocke's Infinity Crusade doppelganger, and I'd imagine your illusions are somewhat in that vein. This set of scans also features him fight a hell of a lot of other high-powered doppelgangers (sorry, these pages aren't in order).

Let's say the two Black Widows fight; mine has grenades,"Grenades aren't to handy close range, but of course getting there is the problem" so she has the edge, but I'm willing to say they cancel each other out. Black Canary and Elektra--I say Elektra takes this, if for no other reason than that she's armed and BC is not, and especially because she is armed with the Muramasa blade that can cut through anything "The way I have my attack planned it's feasable Elektra will not even know what hit her, and I'm not down playing her abilities, just saying (mainly) with my silent add on, I could sneek up on her first then take the blade (if allowed) to fight Cardiac and Moon Knight". I know BC has a great H2H rep, but would be curious to see specific feats against other good opponents. Moon Knight and Cardiac, with their armor,"Even Carbonium arrows?" can take anything Sage, Blackhawk, or Ka-Zar can dish out. Cardiac is not only far, far stronger than anyone else here, but he's also fast and agile, able to stalemate Spider-Man. I'm not totally sure of Sage's martial arts skill level, but in one wiki I was reading, they tried to explain how tough he is by saying he could beat two guard dogs and their handler. "He can go h2h with Shiva in sparring enough to impress her, as well as stalemate a master of cappriolla, highly trained soldiers, and take out multiple thugs at a time." If that's his best showing, then he's in trouble! (I'm assuming he's actually done better.) Between them, Moon Knight and Cardiac should have no problem taking these three down.

Yes, I agree that the grenades aren't too handy close range. That's partly why I said I'd go for a draw between them. But she'll be happy to use them as your team closes in, and you're still some distance away. I saw the Shiva match, looked fairly decent. The other fighting stuff is stuff that all our characters can do all day long. I'd be interested in seeing some Black Canary H2H fights. The reason I say this is that during my debate with Dane, I was talking about the Widow's rep, and he replied as to how rep is nothing (I disagree somewhat) and that for instance BC has a big rep but no feats. So I am curious to see how you would back up BC's rep with feats.

Anyway, I think you could possibly confuse my team with Sage, and he could maybe take out Black Widow. But the rest of my team is still going to mow yours down as you get closer. As you said, eventually Ka-Zar is going to use up his good arrows, and eventually they're going to have to rush the barricade, and they won't have much luck there.

I'm going to continue mulling the question of the Question, but I think he's your main asset here. Without his illusions, I don't think the rest have much of a chance.

#10 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Just a quick response for tonight.

Yes, that sounds about right for Vic, I read that to. He's spent some time in the jungle as well, so he's not a stranger to it.

I wasn't counting on Vic being able to make Black Canary invisible, but if you just saw one person coming over the river, you wouldn't be expecting two.

I can agree on the travel time frame, although if we agree about Moon Knights strength, it could take Cardiac some time to put that fort together himself, so we could still watch you finishing it. But remember, that whole area from the shore line to the new tree line will be empty so it's really a good thing you changed up on Elektra.

I can go with the change in tactics considering the new information acquired, so obviously my strategy will change accordingly, this I will get into more tomorrow.

As well as those scans for B C and Vic. And others if I can find any.

TTTT (Ta Ta Till Tomorrow)

#11 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

Manaic2312, forgive me for asking, but I just wanna check--is the version of Vic Sage that Maniac got for 2 points the version that has invisibility, illusion casting, and the ability to talk to the forest, or is it the earlier depowered Sage?

#12 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio
@Maniac2312: I don't know if Gerald is going to reply.  I didn't want to put the brakes on the conversation, I just suddenly wondered if this version of Vic, who cost as much as Lady Blackhawk, could really be so much more effective than her.  But hey unless he answers let's just go with his powers as Beatboks was describing them to us, so we can get on with it.
 
One thing I was going to say, just in terms of timing, think about how long it would take to make a raft.  I mean, I would think it would take a couple hours just to do that--you need the right size branches/logs (and you don't have any tools besides Ka-Zar's knife), you need to tie them together somehow...it's a complex job.  It has to be functional.  As opposed to the pretty simple "pile a couple logs on top of each other to make a simple barricade" that I'm doing.  Actually now that I think of it, Elektra can help quite a bit cutting the wood to size with the M-blade, so that should help things go even more quickly for my team.
#13 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: With either version of Vic, he's still stealthy enough to stay out of sight as is Black Canary, they will be going along the red line so attempting to cross the river out of your line of site. While Ka-Zar and Lady Blackhawk are keeping the pressure on the front line, Black Widow will be attempting a crossing about where the grey line is (just behind the tree line Cardiac made). Thinking about it, with the amount of area you're planning on clearing, and the time it would take us to get there would be pretty close and I don't know how much charge Cardiac can release without tiring but I'm guessing it's gonna leave him winded for a bit. This will give my team a bit more chance to move in as it'll be one less worry for the moment.

. ......I just had a weird thought.......if all my weapons are now silenced, are my sonic arrows really sonic?.........

On Elektra helping out with the sword, that makes sense, still, you seen the size of trees in the Amazon? It won't be a simple task even for someone with Cardiac's (and he'll be winded from all that blasting) strength level. You ever tried picking up a ten foot 4x4 log by your self? You get unbalanced. A ten to twenty foot tree 3-5 feet in diameter (low balling there I think) tree will not be easy by himself. Even if Moon Knight is able to help it will still be a difficult task. As for building a raft, Ka-Zar would help them with that before they start the actual attack/distraction cover fire. Hmmm, that way, the raft would almost be across the river by the time the rest of the team got into position across from your team. Unfortunately I neglected to get the [radio] add-on so we just gonna have to hope we have our timing right, but if the "ground" team (as opposed to the water team) get to there position first, that just makes it easier for Canary and Vic to come from behind.

OK getting a headache with all this over thinking.....but, don't have anything for Ka-Zar's archery yet :( but since it's one of his essential survival skills, I'd argue he's more than capable of getting an arrow in your area of operations. Still working on putting together some of B.C.'s regular feats.

#14 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: BTW unless I missed something and it's not allowed, after Canary and Sage defeat Elektra by double team sneak attack, Canary picks up the M blade ;) This way they can be on more even ground when facing off against Cardiac and Moon Knight.

#15 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

This is fun.  From now on we should just talk about how long it takes to build things and forget about the characters :)

I'm sure Ka-Zar will help them with the raft, and that he will know how to build one.  But I still think it will take a while, you've got to find/cut the wood--not just any logs, but ones just the right size.  Then get vines or whatnot, lash it all together so it actually works and doesn't come apart midstream.  Then actually float it across--this would all take a lot of time.

In terms of clearing the forest, here's the plan again (somewhat refined): They climb up a central tree.  Cardiac blasts at the trees around them, knocking them away from them.  Most trees would take a single hit, which would take what?  3 seconds?  So 20 trees a minute.  After 10 minutes, that's 200 trees.  Given that each tree is going to knock down at least one more on its way down, that's 400 trees--plenty, I think.

Examples of Cardiac's blasting power: blasting down a building, taking out Rhino, and taking out a huge metal machine, in one hit each (he's also taken out a large boat):


While it will certainly wear him out a bit, on the other hand he's got a low-level healing factor and has the standard extra durability/vitality that comes with 15 ton strength.  So I don't think it's going to be a big issue.  Certainly it's not going to wear him out any more than it is for your team to get all the way to my position, slogging through the jungle, apparently going as fast as possible.  Really, if you insist in trying to go as fast as possible in an attempt to get to my location before I'm done, which I don't think is going to happen, then you're honestly going to be exhausted yourselves, which makes it all the easier for me.

When it comes to putting the barricade together, sure they're not going to be easy to lift, but he can do it, he can blast them into shorter pieces, or Elektra can cut them down.
 
Elektra can cut them up into pieces pretty quickly and easily.  Here's Wolverine cutting an adamantium robot (as I learned in my last debate) in one cut.  If he can do that, trees will be no problem.

 
 
I'm not worried about the balance issue, he just has to pick them up in the middle.  We are dealing with comic-book physics, after all!  For example, here's the (much stronger) Sasquatch picking up a ship and a plane from the end, which should be impossible, in terms of the leverage:

 

 

Anyway, I want to emphasize how simple a thing I'm talking about.  I whipped up some basic pics (excuse the rushed photoshopping!):



In terms of Black Canary, I'm not sure I understand how she's getting in there secretly.  Vic I understand the concept, but I don't get how she's going to do it.  We've cleared the area, so we've got good sightlines.  We can see in all directions.  She's not particularly good at camouflage or infiltration as far as I know, and even if she's generally stealthy, she's not stealthy enough to get across all the cleared land without us seeing her, when we're specifically looking for people coming.  (If she is some kind of stealth genius, then scans of that too, I guess.)
 
As for Vic, if his illusions/invisibility are short term, essentially like a puff of smoke, then there's a good chance we also see him before he gets to us.  He's got to come in over a ton of logs just in the cleared part, which is going to be physically annoying for him and will take forever, while we're looking around for people coming in.  Then he's got to get over the fence.  I don't see any of this being a split second sort of thing. So I am now less convinced that he can get in invisibly, without us being aware that he's coming.  It would still be an advantage for his fighting style, but I think we're  going to know he's there (and sine we know his powers, we will be forewarned he will be trying something like this).
 
I do think it would be legal for you take Elektra's M-blade.  But I think there are a few obstacles here.  First, they don't know what it is or that we have it, so there's no real motivation on Vic's part to pick it up.  Second, Vic would have to randomly choose which one of my unarmored people to take out, so there's at best a 50/50 chance of him picking Elektra, even if he gets in there invisibly in the first place, which I don't think he's going to do.  Third, I again think Elektra would have a decent chance of not being fooled by his illusions, or at least not perfectly.  If she's skilled at misdirection and camouflage herself, to the degree that she's able to get past Daredevil's radar sense and take him by surprise multiple times, then she's more likely to pick up on other people using illusion/camouflage stuff.  So I think the "pick up the M-blade" gambit doesn't have a high chance of happening.
 
Also, while I know you're doing the "attack from 2 sides" thing, again your people on the far side of the water are probably too far away to hit my team with anything other than Blackhawk's and Black Widow's pistols, and those aren't going to do much good.  Once they attack, my team can attack them back as well or better (Cardiac).  And my team will still be on the lookout towards the other direction, since they are #1 tactically intelligent (esp. Black Widow/Elektra) and #2 know how many people are on your team.  So I think in a way you're splitting up your team to your own detriment--I'll take out the ones that are on the promontory first, then the others on the other side of the river later.  It will actually be easier for me that way, instead of fighting them all at once.
 
 

. ......I just had a weird thought.......if all my weapons are now silenced, are my sonic arrows really sonic?.........

Hmm...if a sonic arrow falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?


#16 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Things look good so far. Keep it up!

#17 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: "This is fun. From now on we should just talk about how long it takes to build things and forget about the characters :)"

LOL, alright, alright, I'll leave that alone. We'll just say once we find you we survey you for a bit while we all rest up so we're fresh for he fight.

Just letting everyone know I haven't forgotten this, I will be back to finish as best I can right after breakfast.

P.S. Thanks DedmanWalkin

#18 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Riveting stuff guys!! Good work..

#19 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

In terms of Black Canary, I'm not sure I understand how she's getting in there secretly. Vic I understand the concept, but I don't get how she's going to do it. We've cleared the area, so we've got good sightlines. We can see in all directions. She's not particularly good at camouflage or infiltration as far as I know, and even if she's generally stealthy, she's not stealthy enough to get across all the cleared land without us seeing her, when we're specifically looking for people coming. (If she is some kind of stealth genius, then scans of that too, I guess.)

Besides the fact that's it's pretty much her profession, I think she's good enough at infiltration. And it could be pretty hard to be keeping an eye out while ducking from explosives. with the possible exception of Moon Knight and Cardiac, but theirs only two of them, they can't watch all four directions at once especially while returning fire.

As for Vic, if his illusions/invisibility are short term, essentially like a puff of smoke, then there's a good chance we also see him before he gets to us. He's got to come in over a ton of logs just in the cleared part, which is going to be physically annoying for him and will take forever, while we're looking around for people coming in. Then he's got to get over the fence. I don't see any of this being a split second sort of thing. So I am now less convinced that he can get in invisibly, without us being aware that he's coming. It would still be an advantage for his fighting style, but I think we're going to know he's there (and sine we know his powers, we will be forewarned he will be trying something like this).

In the scans, there was no puff of smoke so I don't see that as ....sorry you're saying that's about as long as it lasts, ok, let's go with that. Their's no reason they have to go over all the trees, the trees are scattered on top of each other and randomly around the clearing we could be going around and under.

Like your pic here, only bigger logs out of shot. Of course the closer we get to the fort, the less logs scattered about so it'll be all about the timing then and since Black Widow and Canary are both provin' dodgers, they should be alright. Lady B will continue with cover fire. Vic will have to find another way around, like the opposite side the blasting is happening.....

I do think it would be legal for you take Elektra's M-blade. But I think there are a few obstacles here. First, they don't know what it is or that we have it, so there's no real motivation on Vic's part to pick it up. Second, Vic would have to randomly choose which one of my unarmored people to take out, so there's at best a 50/50 chance of him picking Elektra, even if he gets in there invisibly in the first place, which I don't think he's going to do. Third, I again think Elektra would have a decent chance of not being fooled by his illusions, or at least not perfectly. If she's skilled at misdirection and camouflage herself, to the degree that she's able to get past Daredevil's radar sense and take him by surprise multiple times, then she's more likely to pick up on other people using illusion/camouflage stuff. So I think the "pick up the M-blade" gambit doesn't have a high chance of happening.

It wouldn't be Vic picking up the blade as he pretty much has no use for weapons, it'll be Black Canary. She'll be picking it up since she's by now likely seen what your team posses and figures she'll need some help attacking. And it's feasible we arrive in time to see Elektra cutting up some logs. (BTW in all the reading I did to find scans I never scanned :/ B/C. also has jungle experience from BoP #1-3)

Also, while I know you're doing the "attack from 2 sides" thing, again your people on the far side of the water are probably too far away to hit my team with anything other than Blackhawk's and Black Widow's pistols, and those aren't going to do much good.

You're right here, after that reading a liitle on the river width, and realizing even Green Arrow considers 100 yards (meters?) a difficult shot, shooting across the Amazon (most likely at least half a click here which is a little more than 100 meters)+ the extra footage to your fort, Ka-Zar wouldn't try that, sooo instead (I hate doing this but logistics demands it) after they all get to the river (Red line) they asses the situation (seeing you build/completing the fort or not, you'll still be in or around it) and decide the best course of action will be to continue down the river (following the red line) to behind the tree line you created, therefore out of your line of site, then build a raft type vessel to get across, then come up from the jungle where the basic plan stays in effect [Ka-Zar in the tree tops to fire down into the fort, the ground troupes could all go in now....not as a group but spread out accordingly] only shorter range and closer back up. Black Widow and Lady Blackhawk would flank with cover fire as needed while Canary and Vic move through the middle. As they will all be constantly moving, and all are silent, it'll be hard for you to keep track of our locations so anything you fire back will be just as or less likely to hit us + you will have to watch not to hit Elektra and/or Black Widow if they are in the area.

Once they attack, my team can attack them back as well or better (Cardiac). And my team will still be on the lookout towards the other direction, since they are #1 tactically intelligent (esp. Black Widow/Elektra) and #2 know how many people are on your team. So I think in a way you're splitting up your team to your own detriment--I'll take out the ones that are on the promontory first, then the others on the other side of the river later. It will actually be easier for me that way, instead of fighting them all at once.

As you can see with my change up, this is no longer necessary. Of course you still know my team.

OK that's it for now, long breakfast huh?

#20 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio
@Maniac2312
OK, so with your new strategy, basically your team is going to start shooting at me from cover while Canary and Sage try to get close and attack hand to hand, and the others will then try to close in, right?
 
Your silence will certainly help you close in, and also shoot semi-undetected from cover.  But, certainly we'll be able to see where Ka-Zar's shooting from, since arrows are easy to see in flight.  Black Widow and Lady Blackhawk will be harder to pin down at first, but we can hopefully see their muzzle flashes (and certainly BW's widow's bite, if she uses that).  Eventually we'll get a sense of where they're shooting from, since they can't be too far back into the woods or they won't be able to shoot at us, and we can figure out the shooting angles--especially since we know generally speaking that they're all shooting from the woods from one basic direction.
 
Cardiac can start blasting away at Ka-Zar immediately, and also in the general direction of the other shooters.  He's bulletproof, so he doesn't need to even hide in cover, he can just stand there, taking fire (and thus making you reveal your positions), and blasting right back at you.  Since his blasts are so big, he can hit more easily than if he just had, say, a gun.  Plus, he can knock down trees all around where you are, making it a dangerous place for you to be.  You'll eventually have to come out of hiding and close in (which you plan to do anyway).  And once you close in, it's easier for me to shoot at you--although you can still take some cover behind fallen trees.  But I think Cardiac especially is going to get most of them (say Ka-Zar, Blackhawk, and maybe/maybe not Widow, the best dodger of the three) eventually.
 
Moon Knight, having his darts as his main distance weapon, will keep an eye out for people coming closer, and only throw the darts at them if/when he sees them.   Being armored, he also has no real worry about the bullets, and in any case is pretty good at blocking stuff.  See scans for him blocking bullets and even lasers, as well as throwing accuracy (most of these I used in the debate with Dane, so you may have seen them already, but the first 3 are new) .
 
 


Even the explosives won't be that big a deal to Cardiac and Moon Knight, but Elektra and Black Widow will have to dodge them, perhaps taking temporary cover behind some of those other strewn-around trees before returning to the main shelter.  Since BW and Elektra both have kevlar or other armor, and are pretty good dodgers, I don't think the arrows are going to do any permanent damage.  And Moon Knight may even catch them midflight--any explosive arrows are going to be set to go off when their tip hits something, so it won't be a problem to catch them.

Black Widow, since her head is unarmored, will be more careful, but will return fire with her bite and pistols at the woods in general and at Canary and Sage if she sees them.  When the others get closer she'll shoot in a more targeted fashion, and will also use her sonic/explosive/incendiary grenades then.  Just like with your arrows, I don't really expect them to really kill anyone so much as make things more difficult for your team overall, and to make it easier for my team to pick them off more easily using their other weapons.
 
Elektra will also keep an eye out for people coming, while also being careful since her head is also unarmored, and will toss shuriken if possible.  I doubt this will kill anyone, but it will keep you dodging.
 
In terms of Canary and Sage getting close, while I'm sure Canary isn't bad at camouflage, I don't know if she's really awesome at it, and I think you'd have to be pretty good to escape all notice over that distance.  I agree that the trees will be broken down like pick-up sticks and could provide some cover, but it would be hard to avoid all detection, especially while we're looking out for your team, and we know how many there are, etc.  Now my opinion of BC's stealth skills is partially based on my lack of deep familiarity with her character.  I looked her up in several places and didn't really see any mention of her having any particular stealth skills (I'm not sure what you mean when you say it's her profession).  So if you have specific examples, describe them.
 
I don't see Black Canary taking Elektra's sword in any case, at least not without beating her directly in face to face combat.  And that's unlikely in these circumstances.  Elektra is extremely fast, extremely accurate with a blade, and has fought well in comparison with many highly skilled combatants, like Daredevil and Wolverine (see a few scans below, such as her taking Punisher's gun out of his hand without him knowing it, etc.  Again you may already have seen these from my debate with Dane).  Plus this would be an unarmed Black Canary vs Elektra with the m-blade.  I just don't see BC winning that.  To persuade me otherwise, you'd have to give me some great BC feats.  Even if you don't have scans, give me some descriptions of fights where she beat highly-respected opponents in pure H2H.  (And again I don't really see Vic taking Elektra by surprise, I think her mystic experiences and ninja awareness is going to keep her alert enough so he can't get close enough to nerve-pinch her.)
 

 
(As an aside, it's interesting that these two are both powerless, BC without her cry, and Elektra without her Silent Scream--it would be entertaining for them to match up their vocal attacks [I think BC would win in that case though].)
 
So while I agree that your team will be able to take some cover behind the fallen trees, and your silence will help you, and Ka-Zar's explosive arrows will cause some havok, none of that is going to be really fatal to me.  As they get close enough, I think my team will be able to start picking your team off--especially using Cardiac's blasts and Widow's bite.  Of course you have a Bite too, but your Widow has the added difficulty of moving around from spot to spot, while mine can shoot from more permanent cover.  Ka-Zar and Lady Blackhawk in particular are most likely to go down early.  Then I have the numerical advantage.  Let's say that eventually you get close enough for hand to hand combat.  This may start with Sage getting in over the walls invisibly--I just can't see Black Canary being good enough to join him in getting over the walls without my team seeing her.  He may take out Widow.  But the rest of my team is going to take him out--let's say Elektra and Moon Knight do it, which is kind of overkill.  Then let's say while they are occupied with Sage, Canary makes it over--and to give you what I think is your best scenario, your Black Widow makes it over too.  In that case, it's Elektra, Moon Knight, and Cardiac vs Black Canary and Black Widow.  I definitely win that battle.  Not only would I win it just in general, but your members can't hurt Moon Knight or Cardiac unless they have the M-blade, and I don't think that's going to happen.  Cardiac way outclasses them all in strength, and is also fast and agile enough to fight Spider-Man.  Moon Knight is not quite as good a fighter (in my estimation) as BC or BW, but is still pretty good and again you can't really hurt him.  Elektra in my opinion is as skilled as BC if not more, and again is armed.  Even if we make this a completely best case scenario for you (which would definitely not happen), and it ends up with Ka-Zar, Lady Blackhawk, your Black Widow, and Black Canary against just Elektra, Moon Knight, and Cardiac up close, my team will still win.  Ka-Zar may be close to Moon Knight's skill, but is not quite there.  Blackhawk is definitely below.  So I'd sic Moon Knight on those two (who, with his armor, he would be able to beat simultaneously), Elektra on Black Canary, and Cardiac on Black Widow.  I'd win all those match-ups.
 
Incidentally, how much longer do you think we have for this debate?  I don't have too much more to add.
#21 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@Maniac2312:

OK, so with your new strategy, basically your team is going to start shooting at me from cover while Canary and Sage try to get close and attack hand to hand, and the others will then try to close in, right?

Just Ka-Zar will be shooting from the tree line with the sonic and explosive arrows mixed between regular arrows. He could wait till his team is closer before firing them off though, in fact they all would hold off till they had to shoot. L. Blackhawk and Black Widow would be flanking Vic and Canary and they won't be close enough together for any one blast to take out more than one at a time. What is the range of Cardiacs blasts? My Black Widow won't be using her bites till she's in closer, probably not till she's coming over the wall if she makes it that close. She's probably the best stealth I got so she'll make it the nearest without being seen if she doesn't fire off any shots on the way. Ka-Zar would start with a sonic arrow to distract your team from spotting the explosive arrow or two that come in right after it.

Your silence will certainly help you close in, and also shoot semi-undetected from cover. But, certainly we'll be able to see where Ka-Zar's shooting from, since arrows are easy to see in flight. Black Widow and Lady Blackhawk will be harder to pin down at first, but we can hopefully see their muzzle flashes (and certainly BW's widow's bite, if she uses that). Eventually we'll get a sense of where they're shooting from, since they can't be too far back into the woods or they won't be able to shoot at us, and we can figure out the shooting angles--especially since we know generally speaking that they're all shooting from the woods from one basic direction.

They won't be shooting from one stationary point, they'll be moving up with Vic and Canary as stated above. Also, muzzle flashes would be harder to catch in the light of day, but then again you are looking for them once the first few hit the barricade. Again, Ka-Zar would be firing of a sonic arrow first this will put three of your team at a short disadvantage for spotting any muzzle flash or arrow line leaving Moon Knight to watch as the explosive arrows hit inside opposite ends of your fort.

with the fourth explosive possibly going outside the fort depending on where Elektra and/or Black Widow go
Cardiac can start blasting away at Ka-Zar immediately, and also in the general direction of the other shooters. He's bulletproof, so he doesn't need to even hide in cover, he can just stand there, taking fire (and thus making you reveal your positions), and blasting right back at you. Since his blasts are so big, he can hit more easily than if he just had, say, a gun. Plus, he can knock down trees all around where you are, making it a dangerous place for you to be. You'll eventually have to come out of hiding and close in (which you plan to do anyway). And once you close in, it's easier for me to shoot at you--although you can still take some cover behind fallen trees. But I think Cardiac especially is going to get most of them (say Ka-Zar, Blackhawk, and maybe/maybe not Widow, the best dodger of the three) eventually.

I understand the power of Cardiacs blasts, but again, what is his range like? Most are pretty close range, but I suppose 25' isn't that far. So you might take down Ka-Zars tree, (which he doesn't really need to climb because your fort is only 5' high and there would be no real trouble getting an arrow in there from that range, but I had him do it so whatever, lol) but I think the explosives have a good chance of injuring your Widow and Elektra, they're good dodgers but they are also in an enclosed area with multiple explosions inside on either side. My team also have that kevlar add on so they have the same protection your Widow and Elektra have. They'll be able to soak a bit of the damage brought on by your ranged weapons.

Moon Knight, having his darts as his main distance weapon, will keep an eye out for people coming closer, and only throw the darts at them if/when he sees them. Being armored, he also has no real worry about the bullets, and in any case is pretty good at blocking stuff. See scans for him blocking bullets and even lasers, as well as throwing accuracy (most of these I used in the debate with Dane, so you may have seen them already, but the first 3 are new) .

Since you're keeping everyone in the fort, I won't be getting the M-blade so, yea, Moon Knight and Cardiac are going to be the biggest problem. I think a well placed (extremely difficult shot) with a carbonium tipped arrow could take Cardiac out of the equation, but as you said, he's pretty quick.

Even the explosives won't be that big a deal to Cardiac and Moon Knight, but Elektra and Black Widow will have to dodge them, perhaps taking temporary cover behind some of those other strewn-around trees before returning to the main shelter. Since BW and Elektra both have kevlar or other armor, and are pretty good dodgers, I don't think the arrows are going to do any permanent damage. And Moon Knight may even catch them midflight--any explosive arrows are going to be set to go off when their tip hits something, so it won't be a problem to catch them.
Black Widow, since her head is unarmored, will be more careful, but will return fire with her bite and pistols at the woods in general and at Canary and Sage if she sees them. When the others get closer she'll shoot in a more targeted fashion, and will also use her sonic/explosive/incendiary grenades then. Just like with your arrows, I don't really expect them to really kill anyone so much as make things more difficult for your team overall, and to make it easier for my team to pick them off more easily using their other weapons.

If your Widow and Elektra are jumping in and out of the fort to avoid the explosives, won't they be easier targets? Those grenades will be a problem no denying that, you could even get one or two of my team with them. With the pattern Ka-Zar would be firing he arrows, it would be hard for Moon Knight to catch them all and there will be explosions within your walls. Both our teams will be doing a lot of duck and cover here.

Elektra will also keep an eye out for people coming, while also being careful since her head is also unarmored, and will toss shuriken if possible. I doubt this will kill anyone, but it will keep you dodging.
In terms of Canary and Sage getting close, while I'm sure Canary isn't bad at camouflage, I don't know if she's really awesome at it, and I think you'd have to be pretty good to escape all notice over that distance. I agree that the trees will be broken down like pick-up sticks and could provide some cover, but it would be hard to avoid all detection, especially while we're looking out for your team, and we know how many there are, etc. Now my opinion of BC's stealth skills is partially based on my lack of deep familiarity with her character. I looked her up in several places and didn't really see any mention of her having any particular stealth skills (I'm not sure what you mean when you say it's her profession). So if you have specific examples, describe them.
I don't see Black Canary taking Elektra's sword in any case, at least not without beating her directly in face to face combat. And that's unlikely in these circumstances. Elektra is extremely fast, extremely accurate with a blade, and has fought well in comparison with many highly skilled combatants, like Daredevil and Wolverine (see a few scans below, such as her taking Punisher's gun out of his hand without him knowing it, etc. Again you may already have seen these from my debate with Dane). Plus this would be an unarmed Black Canary vs Elektra with the m-blade. I just don't see BC winning that. To persuade me otherwise, you'd have to give me some great BC feats. Even if you don't have scans, give me some descriptions of fights where she beat highly-respected opponents in pure H2H. (And again I don't really see Vic taking Elektra by surprise, I think her mystic experiences and ninja awareness is going to keep her alert enough so he can't get close enough to nerve-pinch her.)

With the exception of Cardiac, I suppose stealth is every ones "profession", but like Widow, Canary does a lot of espionage, and stealth goes hand in hand with that. The sword taking was only going to happen if Elektra was not in the fort with the rest of your team, but since she is we can forget about that unless she's out of the action by the time my team (some of at least) get there. I think Vic's abilities would work best the closer he is to your team, but then unless he somehow gets his hands on the M-blade, he won't be much more than a distraction, which could help.

(As an aside, it's interesting that these two are both powerless, BC without her cry, and Elektra without her Silent Scream--it would be entertaining for them to match up their vocal attacks [I think BC would win in that case though].) So while I agree that your team will be able to take some cover behind the fallen trees, and your silence will help you, and Ka-Zar's explosive arrows will cause some havok, none of that is going to be really fatal to me. As they get close enough, I think my team will be able to start picking your team off--especially using Cardiac's blasts and Widow's bite. Of course you have a Bite too, but your Widow has the added difficulty of moving around from spot to spot, while mine can shoot from more permanent cover. Ka-Zar and Lady Blackhawk in particular are most likely to go down early. Then I have the numerical advantage. Let's say that eventually you get close enough for hand to hand combat. This may start with Sage getting in over the walls invisibly--I just can't see Black Canary being good enough to join him in getting over the walls without my team seeing her. He may take out Widow. But the rest of my team is going to take him out--let's say Elektra and Moon Knight do it, which is kind of overkill. Then let's say while they are occupied with Sage, Canary makes it over--and to give you what I think is your best scenario, your Black Widow makes it over too. In that case, it's Elektra, Moon Knight, and Cardiac vs Black Canary and Black Widow. I definitely win that battle. Not only would I win it just in general, but your members can't hurt Moon Knight or Cardiac unless they have the M-blade, and I don't think that's going to happen. Cardiac way outclasses them all in strength, and is also fast and agile enough to fight Spider-Man. Moon Knight is not quite as good a fighter (in my estimation) as BC or BW, but is still pretty good and again you can't really hurt him. Elektra in my opinion is as skilled as BC if not more, and again is armed. Even if we make this a completely best case scenario for you (which would definitely not happen), and it ends up with Ka-Zar, Lady Blackhawk, your Black Widow, and Black Canary against just Elektra, Moon Knight, and Cardiac up close, my team will still win. Ka-Zar may be close to Moon Knight's skill, but is not quite there. Blackhawk is definitely below. So I'd sic Moon Knight on those two (who, with his armor, he would be able to beat simultaneously), Elektra on Black Canary, and Cardiac on Black Widow. I'd win all those match-ups. Incidentally, how much longer do you think we have for this debate? I don't have too much more to add.

I can see the carbonium arrows getting at Cardiac, but Moon Knight will be a tough nut to crack and my best chance with him is a full on widow's bite from close range......even then, his armor could probably tank it. The best I could hope for is Vic and Canary/L. Blackhawk getting to the M-blade.

As you can probably tell by this last effort, I'm pretty much done as well. Midnight probably isn't the best time to do something that requires this much thinking, lol. (Wishes he didn't build his team while half asleep)

#22 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio
@Maniac2312: OK, I am also going to attempt just a short reply before nodding off to sleep myself...
 
I don't exactly know the range of Cardiac's blasts, from the scans I have immediately around me I don't see anything farther than 25-50'.  So I'd say he could reach the edge of the forest.
 

Again, Ka-Zar would be firing of a sonic arrow first this will put three of your team at a short disadvantage for spotting any muzzle flash or arrow line leaving Moon Knight to watch as the explosive arrows hit inside opposite ends of your fort.


 OK, but then Moon Knight will go out and stomp it out--or even conceivably destroy its mechanism with a crescent dart.  If he can break a gun in half with a dart, he can destroy a sonic arrow head.  But point taken that this will take a little time to deal with, so he won't be able to watch your guys coming as easily.
 

I understand the power of Cardiacs blasts, but again, what is his range like? Most are pretty close range, but I suppose 25' isn't that far. So you might take down Ka-Zars tree, (which he doesn't really need to climb because your fort is only 5' high and there would be no real trouble getting an arrow in there from that range, but I had him do it so whatever, lol) but I think the explosives have a good chance of injuring your Widow and Elektra, they're good dodgers but they are also in an enclosed area with multiple explosions inside on either side. My team also have that kevlar add on so they have the same protection your Widow and Elektra have. They'll be able to soak a bit of the damage brought on by your ranged weapons.


I think they stand a decent chance of jumping out of the enclosure in time to dodge the explosive arrows; arrows are reasonably slow and easy to see/track in comparison with bullets, and they are both bullet dodgers.  I agree that MK wouldn't be able to catch all the arrows, since they're going all over, but even one would help.  (And I would say that if MK can, Elektra could really too, but I don't have any scans of her catching arrows.) 
 
 I agree that the kevlar helps all of our members soak up some of the random damage from this fight.  Widow and Elektra will be somewhat easier targets when out of the fort, but when they're out, they'll almost be better off, since they're so agile.  And you only have so many arrows.  I think they'll be OK until they get back in the fort, although they'll have to do some gymnastics to stay safe.
 

Since you're keeping everyone in the fort, I won't be getting the M-blade so, yea, Moon Knight and Cardiac are going to be the biggest problem. I think a well placed (extremely difficult shot) with a carbonium tipped arrow could take Cardiac out of the equation, but as you said, he's pretty quick.


 I feel like he stands a pretty decent chance of dodging any carbonadium arrows.  I agree that Ka-Zar must be at least a decent shot, being a lifelong hunter, but I don't know if he's capable of hitting Cardiac.  I could post some Cardiac agility scans but I'm too tired.  Maybe in the morning.
 
Basically I think it comes down to it being unlikely that I'm going to lose more than one of my people by the time we get to close range, while I think you'll lose at least one and more likely two or with luck three.  Then in close range, I think I take it through durability, as we've already discussed.
#23 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Thank you for the good battle, and good luck.

I'm ready to go to votes.

#24 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Its Close very close :-)

#25 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio
@Maniac2312 said:

@Owie: Thank you for the good battle, and good luck.

I'm ready to go to votes.

It's been a pleasure.
#26 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting is open.

#27 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting is open.

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (13319 posts) - - Show Bio

What is this tournament and why wasn't I informed?

#29 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Started about a month ago I have the link to the sign up/introduction thread in the original post of this battle. Basically you read this battle and decide who wins via who in your opinion had a better argument/proof/team combination.

#30 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto said:

What is this tournament and why wasn't I informed?

People will start up tournaments every once in a while.  Just keep checking out the battle section and you'll probably find another one starting up eventually.
#31 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, voting is open!  Vote for whoever you think made the best argument for their team.

#32 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (5150 posts) - - Show Bio

Just got caught up. Why have people not voted?! >_>

After reading through the thread, and multiple scenarios presented I'm going to give my vote to Owie.

Great job both of you. Good to see some healthy debating!

#33 Posted by beatboks1 (7077 posts) - - Show Bio

Owie in a very close battle.

#34 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Last bump for votes, if no more then I suppose I have to concede the victory to Owie with a 2 - 0 count .

#35 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

@Maniac2312 said:

Last bump for votes, if no more then I suppose I have to concede the victory to Owie with a 2 - 0 count .

You know, I was just going to IM some people and see if they want to vote. Let's wait and see if any respond.

#36 Posted by DrinkUrPruneJuice77 (1598 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 4 wins.

#37 Posted by God_Spawn (37562 posts) - - Show Bio

Owie.

Moderator
#38 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: @Maniac2312: give me an hour to do some stuff and i will vote

#39 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: take your time, wasn't really meaning to rush people, just remind them this was here :].

@Owie: lol, thanks, sounds good....spose I could have done that but I'm not the sociable type :/

#40 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: @Maniac2312: I like the fact Maniac team is silent. That is a great add on. Also he used Kazar in a jungle like setting which is smart. BUT you gave Moon Night access to all his powers which puts him on another level than all the other fighters. Add cardiac to that and Owie team wins.

#41 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Thanks and I agree. If only I was able to find some insane archery feats for Ka-Zar or used the full allotted points -_-

@DrinkUrPruneJuice77 said:

Team 4 wins.

umm...thanks?

#42 Posted by nickthedevil (11841 posts) - - Show Bio

Owie... It was such a hard decision, but i got to go with Owie.

#43 Posted by Vance Astro (91191 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree with Owie as well.His responses are very well thought out.

Moderator
#44 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough choice as already mentioned but my vote is for Owie :)

#45 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

OK OK, I know when I'm beat......

Owie vs Dane:The Sequel coming soon

(Unless their happy with their last battle, then the final ranking would be: 1st Dane, 2nd Owie, 3rd Maniac2312)

#46 Posted by Owie (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks everyone for your votes.

@Maniac2312 said:

OK OK, I know when I'm beat......

Owie vs Dane:The Sequel coming soon

(Unless their happy with their last battle, then the final ranking would be: 1st Dane, 2nd Owie, 3rd Maniac2312)

I really enjoyed the debate. Your team probably wasn't as inherently powerful (having not used all your points), but the quality of your debating pushed your team so I really felt hard-pressed in the battle. And I really enjoyed the creative make-up of your team. There should be a future tournament that doesn't include any top-tier characters, that would be fun.

As for the next results, I guess we have to leave it up to Gerald, but I would be completely fine with the 1-2-3 results you mentioned. It seems kind of silly to redo the previous debate between me and Dane, unless it was given some twist. I'm going to post something to that effect on our debate IM.

#47 Posted by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: I had fun to, just wish I could of found a way to get by your armor, lol.

Maybe suggest a rematch in a city down there by the jungle.