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#1 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

Location

The Setting is at daytime, you may use the environment to your advantage by any means necessary. The location is unpopulated, and there are no wild animals in the rainforest.

Rules:

-All DC characters are their Pre New 52 versions.
- Please Quote or Reply to the person you are debating with. This avoids confusion as to who you were talking to and makes it easier to pick up arguments if one person has to leave for a while. It is going to be necessary with the number of people that will be arguing at once, so please follow this rule.
-Both Teams are aware of the situation.
-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.
- You ONLY have 30 points to construct your team. You will be disqualified if you are over this amount.
-Victory is by death, knockout, BFR or incapacitation.
-Team chemistry does come into play.
- There is no prep time, and teams have absolutely no knowledge of each other prior to the match.
-Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise.
-Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise.
-Characters still need to reload.
-No tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, or BFR.

Teams

Owie's Orange Salukis

Cardiac (Staff, no bird)

Elektra (No Powers) (2 sais,unlimited shuriken) (add-on: Muramasa blade)

Moon Knight (Full control of Khonshu related abilities) (Carbonadium armor, Unlimited crescent shaped darts, and steel bo staff)

Black Widow (Standard gear and Widows Bite) (add-ons: Making Reed Richards proud--Your characters know who you're facing and what they're capable and incapable of--and Somebody set us up the bomb--each gun user of your team is now armed with 2 frag 2 incendiary 2 gas and 2 sonic grenades have fun!)

Other add-ons:

It's dangerous to go alone here take this! (your team now has kevlar armor for those who cant take being shot)

Breathe in breathe out. (Your team is protected from phermones and poisonous gas now!)

Dane's Team

Black Panther (Vibranium Suit,Energy Daggers,Anti Metal Claws)

Daredevil (2 billy clubs)

Hawkeye (1 long bow with unlimited steel tipped arrows)

Add-ons

Bloodlust

Ebony Blade (For Black Panther)

Muramasa (For Daredevil)

Trick Arrows (For Hawkeye)

let me know if I'm missing anything on your team)

#2 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie
Teams seem good.
 
Opening Argument: Your team has no way of tracking mine in a dense jungle. I have Daredevil. Furthermore, you don't have anyone with the fighting skills to match Daredevil/Black Panther let alone bloodlusted versions with swords that cut through anything. What is to stop my team ambushing yours and cutting them down?
#3 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

The short answer is, "lots." But I'll get to strategy and talk about why the ambush scenario isn't going to happen tomorrow. First I just want to make some basic comparisons.

Comparing the teams in general, I disagree with your evaluation of our team's respective fighting skills. I would say--in pure H2H, no powers--its BP at the top, followed by Elektra, then Daredevil, then Black Widow, then Moon Knight, then Hawkeye, then Cardiac. Even this is arguable; there's a case to be made that Elektra is more skilled than Black Panther, but I'll stick with this list. Plus, my team radically beats yours on strength, and also beats you in durability as well. Cardiac is a 15-tonner and fast enough to fight Spider-man, with vibranium-coated skin. Moon Knight has his Khonshu strength and his carbonadium armor. Black Widow is peak human and probably more acrobatic than anyone on your team; her costume is bulletproof. Elektra is easily a match for, and I would argue better than, DD, and has kevlar. While on your team, none of them have even peak human (in a Cap sense) strength. Only Black Panther has any armor/durability. So altogether, my team will acquit themselves quite nicely in any H2H combat, especially since they outnumber yours. A more-or-less equal aggregate of skills, plus greater numbers, plus greater strength and overall durability=a good thing for my team.

Bloodlust: According to Gerald's comment in the PM, "bloodlusted" here means no morals, and doesn't connote any extra degree of motivation, so that's honestly not a big factor--my team is pretty much all happy to kill already, so we're even-Steven there. Although honestly I wish it was "real" bloodlust, because then your team wouldn't have the patience to try any kind of ambushing, since they would be too blinded by rage.

I have the clear advantage in longer-range attacks. Your team has DD's billy clubs--not too much of a factor--and Hawkeye's trick arrows, which are much more effective. My team has Elektra's shuriken (mild factor), Moon Knight's various crescent darts (somewhat effective), Black Widow's silenced pistols (semi-effective), grenades (effective) and also her widow's bite (30,000 volts, enough to kill a man in one hit), and Cardiac's energy blast--which is powerful enough to wipe out your whole team. So while Hawkeye's arrows will be a nuisance, BW's grenades and bite, and Cardiac's energy blasts, are going to really wreak havoc on your team.

When it comes to the swords, you have the ebony blade and a muramasa blade, and I also have a muramasa blade. This is going to be sort of a technical situation. Can the ebony blade or muramasa blades cut our various armors--BP's vibranium armor, Cardiac's vibranium armor, and Moon Knight's carbondium armor? I don't know of any proof either way for either kind of sword, but my instinct is to say no in all cases. I think the ebony blade is sharper than the muramasa blades (and can go into some detail on why if you want), but even it has--as far as I know--no track record against adamantium, and from what I've read, it probably can't cut through it. So I think BP, Cardiac, and MK are more or less protected against any of our bladed weapons--they may get cut up a bit, but not dramatically.

I do need some info on Black Panther's equipment, I don't know much about it. What's the deal with the anti-metal claws, are they Antarctic vibranium or something? What can these energy daggers do, in terms of cutting through stuff?

Also, I have the Reed Richards add-on, so I know all your team's abilities, and you don't know anything about mine. More about this when I write up the strategy tomorrow. One obvious quick tactic following from this, however, is that BW will use the sonic grenade on DD at her earliest opportunity, turning him into a crumpled mess.

There are a variety of match-ups that give my team the win. Ultimately, Black Panther is the main problem, mostly because of his suit, but also because of his top-tier skills. But basically no matter what the match-ups/strategies, I see my team killing DD and Hawkeye, and ultimately having Cardiac get a grip on BP and choke him out, which his armor won't help him against.

For instance, here's a few sample match-ups:

OPTION #1:

Cardiac vs DD: Cardiac blows him away, maybe after a short time. I don't think the muramasa blade will go right through his armor. Despite DD's much higher skills, Cardiac's strength and speed and energy blasts/touch will eventually finish him.

Black Widow vs Hawkeye: BW has superior skills and agility. Hawkeye has superior aim, but BW has all the aim she's going to need to kill him with one of her widow's bites. She can dodge his attacks longer than he can dodge hers. He has his trick arrows, but I think her blasts outweigh them, and she has grenades that mimic many of the arrows, such as sonics and incendiary.

Moon Knight and Elektra vs Black Panther. They both feature a super-sharp blade. Both BP and Elektra are fast enough to mostly dodge each other, and I'm going to argue that even if the ebony blade can cut through carbonadium, it will only cut off small chunks at a time, it's not going to go clean through. They would beat him in pure H2H, but his armor will necessitate them just stalemating him long enough for the others to join in.

OPTION #2:

Cardiac vs Hawkeye: two long range fighters. Cardiac's blasts and armor overwhelm any trick arrows of Hawkeye's, and Hawkeye would be toast in H2H.

Elektra vs Daredevil: Both have Muramasa blades. She's more used to bladed weapons, and has beaten him multiple times, even if those are often by taking him unawares. It would take a long fight, but I think she wins. In any case, BW would use a sonic grenade on him first, softening him up.

Moon Knight and Black Widow vs Black Panther: in this case, they'll use the Widow's bite against him (not sure how effective his armor is against electricity--I understand some people overloaded it)--and also her sonic grenade, then try to disarm him, then once again wait for back-up.

OPTION #3:

Moon Knight vs Hawkeye: Hawkeye has no real way of beating his armor, and MK is a better H2H fighter--and is also very accurate with his crescents.

Black Widow vs DD: BW uses a sonic grenade, then finishes him off with her Bite.

Cardiac vs BP: Cardiac will try to finish him off with his energy blast from afar. It's possible he'd beat BP's armor, given what I've read about it. If they get close, BP is obviously far more skilled, and his various weapons might break through Cardiac's armor eventually. But Cardiac can use his energy directly from his hands, not just his staff, so he's dangerous up close too. His strength is a big factor. Again, eventually the other team members join in.

Of course, all this is just positing straight-up battles. I just want to show how your team is outmatched in a normal fight. Having an extra person is a big help for my team.

Tomorrow, on to strategy, with tracking, ambushing, and all that.

#4 Posted by beatboks1 (7533 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:

THAT was the SHORT answer. Give me warning when your planning to give a long one. I may want to take the day off work :D

#5 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (5234 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck you two.

#6 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie

The short answer is, "lots." But I'll get to strategy and talk about why the ambush scenario isn't going to happen tomorrow. First I just want to make some basic comparisons.

Please do get to that strategy, because it is both ludicrous and a prerequisite of everything you posted.
 

Comparing the teams in general, I disagree with your evaluation of our team's respective fighting skills. I would say--in pure H2H, no powers--its BP at the top, followed by Elektra, then Daredevil, then Black Widow, then Moon Knight, then Hawkeye, then Cardiac. Even this is arguable; there's a case to be made that Elektra is more skilled than Black Panther, but I'll stick with this list. Plus, my team radically beats yours on strength, and also beats you in durability as well. Cardiac is a 15-tonner and fast enough to fight Spider-man, with vibranium-coated skin. Moon Knight has his Khonshu strength and his carbonadium armor. Black Widow is peak human and probably more acrobatic than anyone on your team; her costume is bulletproof. Elektra is easily a match for, and I would argue better than, DD, and has kevlar. While on your team, none of them have even peak human (in a Cap sense) strength. Only Black Panther has any armor/durability. So altogether, my team will acquit themselves quite nicely in any H2H combat, especially since they outnumber yours. A more-or-less equal aggregate of skills, plus greater numbers, plus greater strength and overall durability=a good thing for my team.

Ludicrously skewed. But what makes it worse is you're just stating an opinion. None of this is even vaguely relevant because none of it is backed up with evidence. Your team would get rofl stomped in h2h and what's better: I'll prove why.
 
Daredevil vs Elektra 
Daredevil vs Black Widow 
 

 

So theres two of your best getting solo'd. Moon Knight doesn't compare.
 
Quick facts: Black Panther's Vibranium Suit: It'll absorb Cardiac's blasts and he doesn't have the fighting skill to take down BP any other way. So that's your entire team going to down (under your best and completely erroneous conditions) to just Daredevil and Black Panther.
 

Bloodlust: According to Gerald's comment in the PM, "bloodlusted" here means no morals, and doesn't connote any extra degree of motivation, so that's honestly not a big factor--my team is pretty much all happy to kill already, so we're even-Steven there. Although honestly I wish it was "real" bloodlust, because then your team wouldn't have the patience to try any kind of ambushing, since they would be too blinded by rage.


Thank you, I know what bloodlust means. You don't have it. Please don't pretend your characters have morals or personality off. They don't. Black Widow and Elektra have both shown they're not willing to kill Daredevil or even fight him properly because of their previous relationships with him. Moon Knight also won't try to kill anyone since he was made an Avenger (I can scan it up if you're unfamiliar with the character) and Cardiac has never killed heroes, he wanted to work with, not against Spider-Man. So I don't see him trying to kill BP/DD.
 

I have the clear advantage in longer-range attacks. Your team has DD's billy clubs--not too much of a factor--and Hawkeye's trick arrows, which are much more effective. My team has Elektra's shuriken (mild factor), Moon Knight's various crescent darts (somewhat effective), Black Widow's silenced pistols (semi-effective), grenades (effective) and also her widow's bite (30,000 volts, enough to kill a man in one hit), and Cardiac's energy blast--which is powerful enough to wipe out your whole team. So while Hawkeye's arrows will be a nuisance, BW's grenades and bite, and Cardiac's energy blasts, are going to really wreak havoc on your team.


You think some crescent darts and pistols wielded by characters with no accuracy feats to speak of are more lethal than a quiver of trick arrows in the hands of one of the most skilled marksmen?
 
You can stick with that position but I don't think it'll win you any favors at voting time. That's pants-on-head retarded. Let me know if you want a flood of scans proving my point for me.
 

When it comes to the swords, you have the ebony blade and a muramasa blade, and I also have a muramasa blade. This is going to be sort of a technical situation. Can the ebony blade or muramasa blades cut our various armors--BP's vibranium armor, Cardiac's vibranium armor, and Moon Knight's carbondium armor? I don't know of any proof either way for either kind of sword, but my instinct is to say no in all cases. I think the ebony blade is sharper than the muramasa blades (and can go into some detail on why if you want), but even it has--as far as I know--no track record against adamantium, and from what I've read, it probably can't cut through it. So I think BP, Cardiac, and MK are more or less protected against any of our bladed weapons--they may get cut up a bit, but not dramatically.


I think it's kind of tragic you chose to use the Muramasa Blade and know absolutely nothing about it. This is the difference between your debating style and mine. You write a paragraphs full of guesses and personal interpretation. I show people examples of what people/things do in published, canon comics.
 
Here is a run down on what the Muramasa is.


vs a Robot made of pure Adamantium (harder than carbonadium or vibranium) designed to be invincible against Wolverine (it was until he acquired the M-Blade) 
 

Here is the same weapon used against Omega Red (carbonadium throughout his body)
 

Spoiler: he died. 

 

I do need some info on Black Panther's equipment, I don't know much about it. What's the deal with the anti-metal claws, are they Antarctic vibranium or something? What can these energy daggers do, in terms of cutting through stuff?


Antarctic Vibranium (Anti-Metal) Claws. They degrade metal on the molecular level. So in Cardiac's case: he dies. Energy daggers are exactly what they sound like. Daggers made of energy. They can be set to stun or kill whoever they hit.
 
This scan actually shows both in action along with BP dodging an energy blast suspiciously similar to Cardiac's.


Also, I have the Reed Richards add-on, so I know all your team's abilities, and you don't know anything about mine. More about this when I write up the strategy tomorrow. One obvious quick tactic following from this, however, is that BW will use the sonic grenade on DD at her earliest opportunity, turning him into a crumpled mess.

Please look into Daredevil's abilities before you go off on a wild tangent. He can recognize anyone he has met before by their heartbeat, which he can hear from over 4 city blocks away. Why wouldn't he recognize two of his former girlfriends, Moon Knight whom he has met many times and know that you have an energy projector from the energy in Cardiac's body/staff?
 



There are a variety of match-ups that give my team the win. Ultimately, Black Panther is the main problem, mostly because of his suit, but also because of his top-tier skills. But basically no matter what the match-ups/strategies, I see my team killing DD and Hawkeye, and ultimately having Cardiac get a grip on BP and choke him out, which his armor won't help him against.

 All of which revolve around completely ignoring the actual scenario in favor of one where several conditions are present. Chief among them being that you have absolutely no way of tracking my team.
 

OPTION #1:

Cardiac vs DD: Cardiac blows him away, maybe after a short time. I don't think the muramasa blade will go right through his armor. Despite DD's much higher skills, Cardiac's strength and speed and energy blasts/touch will eventually finish him.

Black Widow vs Hawkeye: BW has superior skills and agility. Hawkeye has superior aim, but BW has all the aim she's going to need to kill him with one of her widow's bites. She can dodge his attacks longer than he can dodge hers. He has his trick arrows, but I think her blasts outweigh them, and she has grenades that mimic many of the arrows, such as sonics and incendiary.

Moon Knight and Elektra vs Black Panther. They both feature a super-sharp blade. Both BP and Elektra are fast enough to mostly dodge each other, and I'm going to argue that even if the ebony blade can cut through carbonadium, it will only cut off small chunks at a time, it's not going to go clean through. They would beat him in pure H2H, but his armor will necessitate them just stalemating him long enough for the others to join in.

 
Cardiac tags Daredevil? When Bullseye can't. Nice. I've already proven the Muramasa would go through his armor. You're yet to display his speed or blasting power. Quick fact about Cardiac, it's not impossible to dodge his energy blasts.
 

 

Spider-Man doesn't seem to have any trouble and he doesn't tangle with Bullseye every week.
 
Something you may not know about Black Widow: Her blasts are extremely short-range. Hawkeye's arrows aren't. How does she even dodge an attack she doesn't know is coming?
 
Please stop downplaying my characters and pretending yours are god-like. It isn't going to wash. You picked sub-par fighters and went for quantity over quality. You will be punished for this the easy way or the hard way. I can post scans of them getting facerolled all day.
 


OPTION #2:

Cardiac vs Hawkeye: two long range fighters. Cardiac's blasts and armor overwhelm any trick arrows of Hawkeye's, and Hawkeye would be toast in H2H.

Elektra vs Daredevil: Both have Muramasa blades. She's more used to bladed weapons, and has beaten him multiple times, even if those are often by taking him unawares. It would take a long fight, but I think she wins. In any case, BW would use a sonic grenade on him first, softening him up.

Moon Knight and Black Widow vs Black Panther: in this case, they'll use the Widow's bite against him (not sure how effective his armor is against electricity--I understand some people overloaded it)--and also her sonic grenade, then try to disarm him, then once again wait for back-up.

 
Please post these scans of Elektra beating Daredevil. I can only recall two fights ending in her favor and both were when she ambushed him when he was already near-death. And she still only managed to KO him off memory. His record is actually much better against her if you'd like me to dip further into my scans. Black Widow has already shown she is unwilling to fight Murdock. Where was her fantastic Widow's Bite in the fight I posted? She had it. She just wouldn't use it on a man she once loved. Same deal here hombre. Elektra wouldn't even kill Daredevil when he was possessed by a demon in Shadowland. She won't do it here either. You're pretending your team has bloodlust. They don't. You didn't fork out 3 points for it. Don't pretend you did, it's contrived and I'm not wearing it.
 


OPTION #3:

Moon Knight vs Hawkeye: Hawkeye has no real way of beating his armor, and MK is a better H2H fighter--and is also very accurate with his crescents.

Black Widow vs DD: BW uses a sonic grenade, then finishes him off with her Bite.

Cardiac vs BP: Cardiac will try to finish him off with his energy blast from afar. It's possible he'd beat BP's armor, given what I've read about it. If they get close, BP is obviously far more skilled, and his various weapons might break through Cardiac's armor eventually. But Cardiac can use his energy directly from his hands, not just his staff, so he's dangerous up close too. His strength is a big factor. Again, eventually the other team members join in.

Of course, all this is just positing straight-up battles. I just want to show how your team is outmatched in a normal fight. Having an extra person is a big help for my team.

One of the best marksman in the world has no way of beating a guy with absolutely zero dodge feats? Let me know if you want to continue this line of reasoning. I will bomb your ass into the stone-age with scans. But let's look at it:
-Hawkeye is bloodlusted.
-Hawkeye has glue arrows he can glue his feet to the floor with (taking him out of the fight).
-Hawkeye has sonic arrows to knock him off balance.
-Hawkeye has adamantium arrows he can put through his head (MK's body armor does not cover his chest).
-Hawkeye has explosive arrows that will knock MK off his feet and probably shred his face with shrapnel. 
-Hawkeye has tagged faster and more skilled opponents.
 
-Moon Knight never dodges.
-Moon Knight has zero accuracy feats with his crescent darts
-Moon Knight isn't bloodlusted and doesn't kill villains let alone heroes.
-Moon Knight doesn't even have comparable fighting skills. He has been schooled by every legitimate MU fighter he has ever gone up against. 
 
Taskmaster's commentary on MK's fighting style. Also a great display of Spector's amazing accuracy/throw speed/him getting his ass stomped.


 
Black Widow vs Daredevil ends exactly one way. We already know that.
 

Cardiac vs BP: Cardiac will try to finish him off with his energy blast from afar. It's possible he'd beat BP's armor, given what I've read about it.


Are you serious? Given what you've read about Vibranium (which absorbs all kinds of energy) you think Cardiac will beat him by firing energy blasts at him? What. That is full retard, sir. 
 
Let me know if Black Panther was merely 'taking chunks' out of Iron Man. The Ebony Blade is a magical sword that cuts through everything. Read a comic.
 


Tomorrow, on to strategy, with tracking, ambushing, and all that.

 
Look forward to you detecting and tracking my team with no sensors. It should be great. Please include scans.
#7 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:

I seem to have annoyed you. Look, this is my first tournament, and I'm looking forward to an enjoyable debate here. I know you're the guy to beat, and I hope you can forgive what is perhaps an overly long post in which I am trying to cover all my bases, knowing you've got a lot of weapons in your debate arsenal, so to speak. But I don't think it's necessary to get all personal with all the "retarded," "pretending" and "ridiculous."

I'll be glad to include scans. I figured we're just starting off, laying out the groundwork first. But I do have to point out that this is not some argument between my apparently completely subjective writing versus the completely objective truth of scans. We both know scans are full of high and low showings. Some of what you've shown here are probably pretty good refutations, and others are not. Also, to answer this:

Please stop downplaying my characters and pretending yours are god-like. It isn't going to wash. You picked sub-par fighters and went for quantity over quality. You will be punished for this the easy way or the hard way. I can post scans of them getting facerolled all day.

I would say, am I trying to show my characters in their best lights and yours at their lowest? Obviously. Which is exactly what you're doing with the scans. I hardly picked subpar fighters (although that Moon Knight/Taksmaster scan--ouch!).

Some very quick replies to stuff you mentioned above: I want to point out that I am perfectly glad to admit that I do not know every single thing about every single comic. So for instance, I did know that the Muramasa blade cut through that robot, but didn't know the robot was adamantium. That will certainly require adjustments on my part. Also thanks for the details on BP's claws. I didn't know Moon Knight had sworn off killing since joining the Avengers. Black Widow and Elektra's lack of willingness to kill Matt won't figure in here, because the characters aren't supposed to know each other. I didn't buy bloodlust I didn't need it. Honestly killing is not a huge part of my strategy, but they are all willing to do what it takes to get a win. I wasn't trying to explain what bloodlust means like you didn't know, I just wanted to point out how Gerald is interpreting it is a bit differently from how I would say it is normally used. If you've got scans that counter what I've got to say, I'm glad to see them, that's part of the fun for me.

Anyway, I had originally written out my strategy off-line and just came on to post it, so I'm just going to paste that in here unchanged, then I will answer your specific arguments above later. I do have scans for the various DD/Elektra fights, etc. Give me some time with that.

OK, the original strategy:

Since my team has the Reed Richards add-on and yours doesn't, my team will be well-prepared for this confrontation, and yours will be in the dark. You won't even necessarily know how many members my team has, which will figure in later.

You can certainly find me more quickly than I can find you, since you have Daredevil, but that doesn't really help you much. Finding me doesn't equal an automatic surprise attack. In fact, while Panther certainly is the most at home in the jungle, and is a good tracker/bushwacker, the others are not particularly skilled at the kind of ambushing you're talking about. DD may have ninja training, but camouflage and ambush have never been things he's practiced much, and the same goes for Hawkeye times ten. My team, on the other hand, is much more skilled and practiced at stealth. Black Widow is a master of stealth and infiltration and espionage. Elektra's ninja training has focused much more on infiltration and stealth than Matt's. Moon Knight is very stealth-focused, and can turn invisible in dark locations, such as the dark jungle we're in. Cardiac, of course, is not particularly good at it, but that won't matter, as seen below.

So here's what my team will do. Knowing that your team features DD and his radar sense, they know you will find my team first, so they will turn it to their advantage. Also knowing that my team surpasses yours in stealth skills, they will use that to their advantage as well.

Cardiac will proceed first, clearing the brush with his beta blasts as he walks along, basically just like someone beating the bushes for bird hunting. He'll just fire randomly in all directions as he walks, removing all camouflaging brush. He'll call attention to himself so you don't even need your radar sense, thereby choosing the scene of the battle to a degree. His blasts will force any of your characters lying in wait to rouse themselves from their hiding places before they would have wanted, giving my team all the time they need to be ready for the fight and not be ambushed. Cardiac, meanwhile, is pretty much immune to any of your distance attacks, so being able to see him won't help you. He can tear out of any bolo arrows or net arrows, and no standard arrows/explosive arrows will hurt him--as Hawkeye will only learn after trying several of them first, thereby giving away his position.

So there will be no surprise jumping of my team and cutting them in half. My team will be ready, will attacks yours as you come close, using my team's superior distance attacks (sonic grenade on DD, widow's bite, beta blasts, throwing stars, crescent darts). Any of your team that's left will fall to my superior numbers.

To be more specific, while Cardiac is beating the bushes, Moon Knight and Black Widow will be skulking in the woods behind him, where they are less obvious. MK will be using his near-invisibility. When Cardiac rouses your guys from the bushes, MK and BW will attack. Elektra, meanwhile, will be a short distance away, circling around in a satellite fashion. Elektra is able to defeat DD's radar sense, so he won't pick her up, and her ninja skills have allowed her to sneak up on him time and again. And if she can sneak up on DD, she can do the same to BP and Hawkeye, too, if she wants.

So while BW is using sonic grenades on DD, making him completely ineffective, Elektra will sneak up on him from behind, perhaps smacking him in the back of the head with a sai and KOing him as she has done multiple times in the past. This will take all of a few seconds. She will then do the same to Hawkeye, who will probably not have seen her attack, as he will be focused on shooting arrows (futilely, given their durability and agility) at my team and trying to dodge their own attacks. So I am guessing she will take him out from behind quickly as well. Once this is done, she'll finish them off and pick up DD's muramasa sword, eventually passing it along to Moon Knight.

Meanwhile, Cardiac, BW, and MK have all been attacking Hawkeye and BP. Pretty much the only reason Hawkeye wouldn't get taken out by Elektra would be because he would already be taken out by Black Widow's bite or Cardiac's energy blasts, neither of which he has any protection against and neither of which he would be especially good at avoiding.

So pretty quickly your team is dwindled down to Black Panther, who is by far the most formidable. While his skill is above any individual member of my team--although Elektra is extremely close--they as a group will certainly overwhelm him.

I WILL GET TO THE SCANS. Looking forward to a civil debate.

#8 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie: It's 3am here so I'll reply to your full post tomorrow morning. But I just want to be clear, I don't mean anything in the thread to be a personal insult. I'm just using descriptive words to convey my point of view. Nothing about my posts is aimed at being insulting, it's aimed at underlining the (perceived) logical fallacies present.
#9 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane said:

@Owie: It's 3am here so I'll reply to your full post tomorrow morning. But I just want to be clear, I don't mean anything in the thread to be a personal insult. I'm just using descriptive words to convey my point of view. Nothing about my posts is aimed at being insulting, it's aimed at underlining the (perceived) logical fallacies present.

OK. Let's just go on, water under the bridge.

Here are some scans. I'm glad I got to them before you replied, this way you can reply to it all in full, with any evidence I have in there, instead of just my assertions.

Various Elektra vs Daredevil fights. In each of these, she has the upper hand, one way or another. Sometimes through prep (which I know I don't have here, but just to prove she is in many ways a smarter fighter than him), sometimes with surprise--and that is exactly the situation we will have in this fight. DD will be crippled by the sonic grenade--I have a couple examples of him crumbling under sonics if you need it, but I assume you don't--and Elektra will be attacking from a place of hiding, sneaking up on him as she is shown to do here multiple times, and avoiding his radar sense as she is explicitly said to be able to do (individual scan below). You'll note that one of these fights is the one that you showed above, except that instead of just showing the first page where it ends ambiguoulsy, it shows the second page where she has him clearly defeated in a lock--and this is where Matt is fighting pretty seriously because of Milla's presence.

Elektra is able to avoid his radar sense:

Avoids Radar Sense

Elektra also has some good feats against Wolverine. In one he points out that even though he should be better than her because of his strength and speed, she always manages to play him anyway. In the other, she does well in a fight against him--and I would stack Wolvie's skills against Black Panther or DD any day. In another, he calls her the world's greatest ninja--and he is certainly in a position to make such a judgement. Of course, that's from a scene where Logan and Elektra get their butts handed to them by Gorgon. But a bigger point may be, when they decided to send some people against Gorgon in a last-ditch effort, Elektra was one of the two people they chose, which shows a pretty high evaluation of her deadliness.

Also, Elektra vs Taskmaster and also vs some skrulls that copied the powers of a bunch of heroes--she takes them all out. She's a highly effective fighter.

A little Black Widow stuff now. Please note that I never said she was Matt's equal--I explicitly said she was lower than him in skill, so that scan doesn't really show me anything I didn't know. A question about that scan though--that seems very uncharacteristic of Matt. Is he possessed or something? Are his power/skill levels normal there?

I honestly don't have a ton of Natasha scans, so these will have to do at the moment. These show her almost dodging a bullet from very close, and taking it in her chest without it slowing her down at all. Is this perhaps as good a job of bullet timing as some other characters? Perhaps not, but at the same time Bendis was going for a somewhat more realistic approach here, I think. Then later she is able to survive a multi-story fall without much effect (and between this and the bullet, pretty much puts the lie to the scan that says she has no pain tolerance), and throws a bar at a guy across a city block, almost hitting him--which while it's a miss, is a really impressive, long-range throw for someone who is not at all focused on throwing weapons. Certainly her shooting skills are not to be denied, she's a famous assassin. Then a bunch of general highly-acrobatic fighting--against red shirts, certainly, but still showing a high degree of excellence, enough for Bucky (whose skills I assume you won't deny?) to take her on as a partner--and why would he take her on as a partner unless she added something to the equation?

Also, just as a general point in which Matt shows his respect for both Natasha and Elektra, he mentions that both of them are able to control their heartbeats in such a way that he can't read them the way he reads other people. If they can hide this from him, in what other ways are they better than him? Of course, these scans show how good his senses are--I would never deny that. But it also shows that his use of them is not infallible.

Now for some Moon Knight. I only have a few scans at the moment and will get more. But let's not pretend that he's always a schlump like in that Taskmaster scan. Here he takes on Mr. Hyde--not totally defeating him, but putting him down, and without even having his armor and powers as he does in this thread. He also dodges an RPG from point blank range. Finally, from OHOTMU, a description of his throwing accuracy. I certainly would never say he's as good as Hawkeye, but he's not so shabby!

Finally Cardiac. I want to get to Black Panther's armor in a minute, and first I just want to show his general power, and also agility--dodging bullets and jumping around in a very agile manner. His blast can take down whole buildings,blowup huge machines, etc. I would also like to point out that while obviously people can dodge his blasts, Spidey is way out of DD's league in agility, and also has his spider-sense. DD can often beat Spidey in a fight because he's more skilled and more serious, but Spidey's dodging is on a whole different level. So DD may or may not be able to dodge some of Cardiac's blasts, but not as easily as Spidey.

OK, now about Black Panther's armor. I will admit I am no expert. Here's the most detailed description I've read about it, as written by Static Shock, an admitted BP fan, in the thread about his suit:

http://www.comicvine.com/black-panther/29-1477/vibranium-suit/92-398243/#70

Before Black Panther volume 3, his suit didn't have the vibranium woven into it. It was just a regular spandex suit that symbolized the Black Panther tribe of Wakanda. Then, when his volume 3 run dropped in 1998, Christopher Priest added the vibranium property to his suit, making it a part of his standard equipment. The suit absorbs a very large amount of kinetic force/momentum, sound waves (a defense against Klaw), and electromagnetic and light-based wavelength beams (according to Tony Stark, who admitted that repulsor blasts wouldn't work on the suit and BP's own energy daggers don't work on the suit either). The suit has survived a car explosion once and has survived a cosmic blast from Stardust (there's a possibility that she made the blast non-lethal, though). If knives and swords are stabbed into the suit, they will break. However, if they slash against the suit's grain, the suit will tear at the area it is slashed. Bullets are sapped of their momentum when they approach the suit, bouncing off. The amount of punishment the suit can take varies. For instance, you would think punches and kicks would have no effect on the suit, but Black Panther has taken physical punishment from them before. The suit would only dampen the force from physical attacks, but not completely cancel them out. For instance, he's taken blows from superhumans like Namor, Hulk, Iron Man (wearing a weaker armor, but still had a considerable amount of strength), Man-Ape, and Iron Fist's Chi punches. With these attacks from the following, he's been knocked back by them even with suit on, but it probably wouldn't hurt as much as it would without the suit. At the same time, Cap, Kraven, Killmonger, Dr. Doom, and Red Skull were able to hurt Panther also. On top of that, Black Panther felt a bit of pain after being hit in the jaw by a Skrull with the strength of Luke Cage. However, it didn't bother him that much because of the suit. Regarding the issue of Iron Fist's Chi punches, his attacks were able to tear the suit. It's written that physical force doesn't tear the suit, but some could argue that the force that Iron Fist generated against the suit may have overloaded the amount of force that the vibranium weave could take and pushed it past it's limit. Some would argue that the suit wasn't supposed to tear at all, despite the force generated by Iron Fist's attacks. That instance is all speculation, basically. Though, I think the former is more likely to be true than the latter, since that version of Iron Fist was powered-up at the time. Other instances were when Red Skull was able to tear at the suit with physical attacks, but Red Skull doesn't possess the strength to overload vibranium, so tearing it doesn't really make sense there. Also, the 19-hour fight with Killmonger is another example similar to the first.


...

Recently, Dr. Doom was able to blast T'Challa into a coma while he was wearing his suit. Some would think that the suit should have absorbed the blast, but we don't know what kind of energy the blast was composed of. Could have been magical, knowing Doom, and magic isn't bound by science. But, I think this is it for now.

So I think there's a decent chance that his beta blasts could affect Black Panther's suit. It has very good showings, but he has also been hurt by Cap, Kraven, Killmonger, Dr. Doom, Red Skull, and a Skrull. Those may be the lower showings, but its all canon. And it can be torn by being cut against the grain, so the others could certainly hurt him with H2H weapons if used correctly--and especially if my team uses not only my Muramasa sword, but also DD's. I know how vibranium works, but his whole armor isn't made of it, it's a weave, just as Cardiac's is, so it's not completely invulnerable.

I do want to reconsider how the muramasa blades and ebony blades will work in this fight, considering that at least the Muramasa blade can cut adamantium. I have read in the past that the Ebony Blade cannot cut adamantium, but that may be supposition. I'll also take the anti-metal claws more into account. Can you show a scan or two of the energy daggers working on someone with armor, or some other kind of high durability? Or where they're being used on their stun effect?

Other random things...I know Cardiac wouldn't kill without reason. But he has killed in the past, and has shown himself to be fairly ruthless. In any case, I don't need him to be a killer here, just a serious fighter. It's also OK for Black Widow's bite to be more for medium range--they won't be TOO far away--they just need to be far enough to be out of hand-to-hand reach, which will be the case at first. Some of Hawkeye's arrows could work against Moon Knight--the adamantium one, the glue one, the sonic one. The explosive one wouldn't do much, his face is armored too. Also, Hawkeye is being attacked at the same time as all this. Anyway, a lot of these specific match-ups may not come up, my point was more that there are a lot of ways for our teams to fight in a straight-up battle, and my team could do pretty well overall. When you take the strategy into account, though, this is all kind of moot, I probably should have started with the strategy. There may have been a few more things in your post, I'll get back to them later.

Anyway, hopefully I've shown here what I started with at the very beginning, which is that Elektra is by no means going to get rolled by anyone in H2H. Possibly beaten in the long run by Black Panther, but not quickly at all. Black Widow and Moon Knight, as I said at the very beginning, are below DD. But together, they're a decent force to be reckoned with in H2H. And Cardiac provides the brawn and the energy power. I think our teams are fairly close, but I think mine can take this, especially using my strategy as outlined above.

To reiterate: I don't need trackers, because I'm assuming you find me first. Cardiac makes it so your team isn't able to hide until you get close enough to ambush my team--you can ambush, but only from a distance, and in this jungle, distance shots aren't really going to work. So Black Widow hobbles DD with a sonic grenade. Elektra uses her stealth to take out DD and Hawkeye quickly, so Hawkeye never really gets to be a factor. Then they all finish off Black Panther. It may not work as smoothly as all that (he may well take out a couple before he's done), but generally speaking I think it would work.

#10 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie:
Sigh, is your strategy to write so much that I can't put aside enough time to reply or something?
 

Since my team has the Reed Richards add-on and yours doesn't, my team will be well-prepared for this confrontation, and yours will be in the dark. You won't even necessarily know how many members my team has, which will figure in later.


No they aren't well-prepared. They don't have prep time. My team can detect and identity yours which I've already mentioned and proven. Please actually read and address my posts instead of just typing up a bunch of out of context or blatantly wrong text. Arguing for your team is one thing, blatantly lying is another.
 

You can certainly find me more quickly than I can find you, since you have Daredevil, but that doesn't really help you much. Finding me doesn't equal an automatic surprise attack. In fact, while Panther certainly is the most at home in the jungle, and is a good tracker/bushwacker, the others are not particularly skilled at the kind of ambushing you're talking about. DD may have ninja training, but camouflage and ambush have never been things he's practiced much, and the same goes for Hawkeye times ten. My team, on the other hand, is much more skilled and practiced at stealth. Black Widow is a master of stealth and infiltration and espionage. Elektra's ninja training has focused much more on infiltration and stealth than Matt's. Moon Knight is very stealth-focused, and can turn invisible in dark locations, such as the dark jungle we're in. Cardiac, of course, is not particularly good at it, but that won't matter, as seen below.


Have you even read comics with these characters? Daredevil and Hawkeye never ambush people?
 

Seems like a legitimate argument.
 
Also, wtf at you thinking Black Widow and Moon Knight out-stealth Black Panther and Daredevil. That's your argument? Really?
Please post scans of Moon Knight turning invisible. I've been reading MK for years and I've never seen him turn invisible. Must have totally slipped my notice. Not that it even vaguely matters. Why do you think 'stealth skills' allow them to avoid Daredevil's senses? He can hear their heartbeats. There is no amount of hiding behind trees that will change that. Unless they stop their hearts and die he can detect them. And even the ones you say he can't (Elektra), Black Panther has enhanced senses and is a better tracker than Wolverine. He alone could track your team and detect the scent of Elektra and co. There is no amount of 'training' that makes you immune to my sensors.
 

Cardiac will proceed first, clearing the brush with his beta blasts as he walks along, basically just like someone beating the bushes for bird hunting. He'll just fire randomly in all directions as he walks, removing all camouflaging brush. He'll call attention to himself so you don't even need your radar sense, thereby choosing the scene of the battle to a degree. His blasts will force any of your characters lying in wait to rouse themselves from their hiding places before they would have wanted, giving my team all the time they need to be ready for the fight and not be ambushed. Cardiac, meanwhile, is pretty much immune to any of your distance attacks, so being able to see him won't help you. He can tear out of any bolo arrows or net arrows, and no standard arrows/explosive arrows will hurt him--as Hawkeye will only learn after trying several of them first, thereby giving away his position.


So your team will out-stealth me by having someone blast apart shubbery with energy blasts. Seems legit.
 
I'm trying to follow your logic and it's like this: You think if Cardiac, in a gigantic amazon forest, will draw out my team by randomly attacking... trees. And they'll just all ignore the fact that they know EXACTLY where your team is and what they are doing. Ignore the fact that Daredevil can hear their muscles tensing and smell the hormones in their blood surging in preparation for a fight... because Cardiac is shooting down squirrels. Sorry, I realize I told you earlier that none of my posts are aimed at you personally. But what the hell dude? That is not a counter to being ambushed. It's more likely my team would just ambush where your team is hiding while Cardiac is busy derping around, finish them off in close quarters and then 3v1 Cardiac. 
 
Here is what you're doing: taking what I said, pretending my team are subhuman morons and that this somehow results in you winning. Here is my version of your debating style used to explain your tactics.
 
Cardiac blasts a tree, as you describe, which topples (as trees do when you decimate the lower trunk) and kills Moon Knight and Black Widow. Elektra gets mad and flips a desk, the camera pans close to Cardiac's slackened face as he says "hurrdurr did I do that?", cue canned laughter. But seriously, that is just as likely as everything you said.
 

So there will be no surprise jumping of my team and cutting them in half. My team will be ready, will attacks yours as you come close, using my team's superior distance attacks (sonic grenade on DD, widow's bite, beta blasts, throwing stars, crescent darts). Any of your team that's left will fall to my superior numbers.


Numbers are actually meaningless compared to skill. Ever seen HYDRA take down Captain America with 30 goons? No. Please do not apply the same tactics to a tournament. It's vaguely insulting.
 

To be more specific, while Cardiac is beating the bushes, Moon Knight and Black Widow will be skulking in the woods behind him, where they are less obvious. MK will be using his near-invisibility. When Cardiac rouses your guys from the bushes, MK and BW will attack. Elektra, meanwhile, will be a short distance away, circling around in a satellite fashion. Elektra is able to defeat DD's radar sense, so he won't pick her up, and her ninja skills have allowed her to sneak up on him time and again. And if she can sneak up on DD, she can do the same to BP and Hawkeye, too, if she wants.


This is baby retard. In your mind, Daredevil and Black Panther both lose their enhanced senses and drop to -15 IQ points because Cardiac is shooting off his (iirc limited in uses) energy blasts. What? Elektra has only ever 'snuck up on' Daredevil when he was shot and bleeding to death and drugged and almost unconscious. What a badass. Thanks for posting those scans too so everyone can see the actual state that Murdock is in when Elektra sneaks up on him. So impressive. The rest of this plan all operates on DD and BP having none of their senses or tactical acumen. Look I understand it's your position to lowball my team. But your tactics hinge on them being lowballed to a point where they're drooling into their outfits and not using any of their established powers and abilities. If you want some credibility, you need to come up with something else.
 

So while BW is using sonic grenades on DD, making him completely ineffective, Elektra will sneak up on him from behind, perhaps smacking him in the back of the head with a sai and KOing him as she has done multiple times in the past. This will take all of a few seconds. She will then do the same to Hawkeye, who will probably not have seen her attack, as he will be focused on shooting arrows (futilely, given their durability and agility) at my team and trying to dodge their own attacks. So I am guessing she will take him out from behind quickly as well. Once this is done, she'll finish them off and pick up DD's muramasa sword, eventually passing it along to Moon Knight.


Cool. Sonic Grenades on a person she can't see, hear or smell. A person she has absolutely no way of detecting and a person she has in the past been unable to land a single hit on. Daredevil doesn't have any dodging feats btw, he basically never dodges anything. It's not the defining trait of his character. You'll win this debate. I especially like the part where she picks up someone else's gear (who she had no way of finding, let alone defeating). I've already listed a dozen ways Hawkeye can incapacitate anyone on your team, yet you still pretend like I didn't. Saying it's futile for him to attacking anyone. Now if I'm going to read the essay you turn out and respond to every word you write, I expect the exact same courtesy. If you're not going to address my posts, especially the parts that wreck your tactics and team composition then we can just take it to voting. I'm not going to sit here debunking your arguments all day only to have you ignore it and rewrite your posts verbatim.
 

Meanwhile, Cardiac, BW, and MK have all been attacking Hawkeye and BP. Pretty much the only reason Hawkeye wouldn't get taken out by Elektra would be because he would already be taken out by Black Widow's bite or Cardiac's energy blasts, neither of which he has any protection against and neither of which he would be especially good at avoiding.


Hawkeye never dodges anything. He can't fight either. I don't even know why I picked such a fantastic marksman with a quiver of situationally valuable arrows.
 
#11 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie

Various Elektra vs Daredevil fights. In each of these, she has the upper hand, one way or another. Sometimes through prep (which I know I don't have here, but just to prove she is in many ways a smarter fighter than him), sometimes with surprise--and that is exactly the situation we will have in this fight. DD will be crippled by the sonic grenade--I have a couple examples of him crumbling under sonics if you need it, but I assume you don't--and Elektra will be attacking from a place of hiding, sneaking up on him as she is shown to do here multiple times, and avoiding his radar sense as she is explicitly said to be able to do (individual scan below). You'll note that one of these fights is the one that you showed above, except that instead of just showing the first page where it ends ambiguoulsy, it shows the second page where she has him clearly defeated in a lock--and this is where Matt is fighting pretty seriously because of Milla's presence.

It's pretty lolsy, because you say this tournament has everything in your favor. Just look at those scans. Every one of them has some situational factor in Elektra's favor that she won't have here. In the first one Daredevil is shot and bleeding to death, barely able to stand when the amazing Elektra initiates a fight. The second one he is drugged and can't even stand. It's also funny because this is before she trained against Daredevil. So here she couldn't even evade his radar sense (if you accept that she can, based on one comic contradicting everything else that has ever been written). But because of the state he is in he can't actually dodge her attacks. I mean if you think that is good evidence for her, cool. I don't. You say you have the element of surprise here. I have trouble believing you actually read my posts. You have no sensors. You have none. Please understand this. Please process it. You have NO way of detecting my team. You haven't addressed that when I asked you to because you can't. I also don't just have Daredevil who can detect and identify your whole team from the start. I also have Black Panther who has enhanced senses and is one of the best trackers in MU. Please stop pretending he doesn't exist. No deus ex machina, hitherto unsuspected and unexplained abilities of Elektra's to evade radar-sense will fool Black Panther's senses. He doesn't use radar-sense. His senses work like Wolverine/Sabretooth.
 
I showed the first page because Matt gets the first bunch of hits in. He is bloodlusted with a katana, how many hits do you think he'll actually need? You can produce classic age scans of Elektra jumping near-unconscious Daredevils until the cows come home. In the modern era she doesn't hold a candle to him. If you think taking 3 punches and 1 kick to the head and getting someone in an ambiguous grapple in return is a good trade... well I'm glad I'm not you. I know which hurts more. Check out her hold on him. It's lose and weak. In the story she isn't even trying to fight him properly. She's all in love with him, etc. He has (clearly) moved on. And bloodlusted.
 
The only decisive win Elektra has over Matt there is by using a bear-trap. A bear-trap. You don't have a bear-trap. He was beating her ass inside out before that. Your scans honestly lend more weight to my arguments than yours.
 

Elektra is able to avoid his radar sense


Ok, explain how? Bet you can't.
 
Because it doesn't make sense, and she has never been able to do it before. Not even when she worked for the Kingpin, which in the scan you posted, she said she could then. That doesn't make sense at all. It's not consistent. But worse for you still, even if she can avoid DD's radar sense: It's not the only sense he uses to track people. Far from it. He can still smell a scent and hers is very familiar. Worse still? I have Black Panther and she doesn't have some special, totally unexplained counter to his senses.
 

Elektra also has some good feats against Wolverine. In one he points out that even though he should be better than her because of his strength and speed, she always manages to play him anyway. In the other, she does well in a fight against him--and I would stack Wolvie's skills against Black Panther or DD any day. In another, he calls her the world's greatest ninja--and he is certainly in a position to make such a judgement. Of course, that's from a scene where Logan and Elektra get their butts handed to them by Gorgon. But a bigger point may be, when they decided to send some people against Gorgon in a last-ditch effort, Elektra was one of the two people they chose, which shows a pretty high evaluation of her deadliness.

The first scan you posted isn't canon. It's from a comic written for a video game (Rise of the Ultimates, iirc). Funny about her being the world's greatest ninja. Who is her competition? Wolverine is a samurai, not a ninja. I can't actually think of any other fighter except Elektra who actually identifies themselves as a ninja. It's an empty accomplishment.
 

Also, Elektra vs Taskmaster and also vs some skrulls that copied the powers of a bunch of heroes--she takes them all out. She's a highly effective fighter.


Sorry, was that the story arc where every Marvel street level hero defeated Skrulls with the powers of Colossus/Iron Fist/etc? If you want scans of people wasting totally featless cannon fodder, let me know.
 
On Elektra vs Taskmaster: 



Don't lowball Taskmaster. She isn't in the same league. Her one-shotting him is obvious PIS given his track record. That one is a real fight (in her own book iirc).
 


A little Black Widow stuff now. Please note that I never said she was Matt's equal--I explicitly said she was lower than him in skill, so that scan doesn't really show me anything I didn't know. A question about that scan though--that seems very uncharacteristic of Matt. Is he possessed or something? Are his power/skill levels normal there?

 
He's not possessed, he thinks the baby is. It's from Daredevil Volume 2, Issue 4 I think. Actually the first Daredevil comic I ever bought. He actually takes the baby to Doctor Strange, who summons and interrogates Mephisto. It's kind of weird story-wise because it's during Kevin Smith's run. But Black Widow has never been in DD's league. I can post other fights if you want, I can remember them having others.
 

honestly don't have a ton of Natasha scans, so these will have to do at the moment. These show her almost dodging a bullet from very close, and taking it in her chest without it slowing her down at all. Is this perhaps as good a job of bullet timing as some other characters? Perhaps not, but at the same time Bendis was going for a somewhat more realistic approach here, I think. Then later she is able to survive a multi-story fall without much effect (and between this and the bullet, pretty much puts the lie to the scan that says she has no pain tolerance), and throws a bar at a guy across a city block, almost hitting him--which while it's a miss, is a really impressive, long-range throw for someone who is not at all focused on throwing weapons. Certainly her shooting skills are not to be denied, she's a famous assassin. Then a bunch of general highly-acrobatic fighting--against red shirts, certainly, but still showing a high degree of excellence, enough for Bucky (whose skills I assume you won't deny?) to take her on as a partner--and why would he take her on as a partner unless she added something to the equation?


I don't understand the line of reasoning. Compared to a normal human, I'm sure she is very impressive. None of those are things street levelers aren't capable of. Even the lowest level fighters I can think of like Damien Wayne dodge bullets and jump across roof tops all night long. Her marksmanship has never really been explored. Do you have scans of her making particularly difficult shots? A mean there are loads of regular marines who have sniper training. The fact that she has firearms training doesn't make her a marksman. It doesn't make her more accurate than, to use your words, any old red shirt.
 


Also, just as a general point in which Matt shows his respect for both Natasha and Elektra, he mentions that both of them are able to control their heartbeats in such a way that he can't read them the way he reads other people. If they can hide this from him, in what other ways are they better than him? Of course, these scans show how good his senses are--I would never deny that. But it also shows that his use of them is not infallible.

 
Did you actually read the scans? He didn't say anything of the sort. What are you talking about? He identifies Elektra immediately by her heartbeat and scent from outside his apartment. Which, by the way, is what I meant by her evading his senses being contradictory to all other showings. You've provided me with that evidence yourself. You can see right there he has no trouble detecting or tracking Elektra. He knows everything about her intimately. And he never says anything about Black Widow or Elektra being able to disguise their heartbeats.


Now for some Moon Knight. I only have a few scans at the moment and will get more. But let's not pretend that he's always a schlump like in that Taskmaster scan. Here he takes on Mr. Hyde--not totally defeating him, but putting him down, and without even having his armor and powers as he does in this thread. He also dodges an RPG from point blank range. Finally, from OHOTMU, a description of his throwing accuracy. I certainly would never say he's as good as Hawkeye, but he's not so shabby!


What are you even talking about? He dodges the RPG from a rooftop away. You can see very clearly in the scans Bushman is on another rooftop. Know who else has beaten Mr. Hyde? Daredevil and Patriot of the Young Avengers. Moon Knight struggles against Bushman who has no powers, isn't even olympic level human and has no special skills or training. That's kind of weaksauce. 

Calvin Zabo's fighting skills aren't particularly special.

Finally Cardiac. I want to get to Black Panther's armor in a minute, and first I just want to show his general power, and also agility--dodging bullets and jumping around in a very agile manner. His blast can take down whole buildings,blowup huge machines, etc. I would also like to point out that while obviously people can dodge his blasts, Spidey is way out of DD's league in agility, and also has his spider-sense. DD can often beat Spidey in a fight because he's more skilled and more serious, but Spidey's dodging is on a whole different level. So DD may or may not be able to dodge some of Cardiac's blasts, but not as easily as Spidey.

 
Wrong. Daredevil can dodge Bullseye. Spider-Man cannot.
 
If Cardiac can blow up a building with one blast, why did he never use that level of blast on Spider-Man? Because he doesn't kill heroes or because he can't. Either way I have a team full of heroes so that isn't going to happen.
 
Daredevil can dodge Bullseye.
 

Spider-Man cannot.
 
Tell me again how Spider-Man's agility is on a whole 'nother level. (It is), but that doesn't equate into dodging skill as much as radar sense.
 

So I think there's a decent chance that his beta blasts could affect Black Panther's suit. It has very good showings, but he has also been hurt by Cap, Kraven, Killmonger, Dr. Doom, Red Skull, and a Skrull. Those may be the lower showings, but its all canon. And it can be torn by being cut against the grain, so the others could certainly hurt him with H2H weapons if used correctly--and especially if my team uses not only my Muramasa sword, but also DD's. I know how vibranium works, but his whole armor isn't made of it, it's a weave, just as Cardiac's is, so it's not completely invulnerable.

It absorbs energy. That is what Vibranium does. You have an energy projector. Don't make that harder than it has to be.
 

I do want to reconsider how the muramasa blades and ebony blades will work in this fight, considering that at least the Muramasa blade can cut adamantium. I have read in the past that the Ebony Blade cannot cut adamantium, but that may be supposition. I'll also take the anti-metal claws more into account. Can you show a scan or two of the energy daggers working on someone with armor, or some other kind of high durability? Or where they're being used on their stun effect?


You don't even have adamantium so I don't know why that is an argument. You don't have any armor that can stand up to either weapon and certainly not anti-metal claws. I actually don't have that many scans of Energy Daggers in use, but I'll try to check through my BP comics and scan some up. It's basically a single dagger that can shoot out many energy (dagger-sized) blasts per second.
 

Other random things...I know Cardiac wouldn't kill without reason. But he has killed in the past, and has shown himself to be fairly ruthless. In any case, I don't need him to be a killer here, just a serious fighter. It's also OK for Black Widow's bite to be more for medium range--they won't be TOO far away--they just need to be far enough to be out of hand-to-hand reach, which will be the case at first. Some of Hawkeye's arrows could work against Moon Knight--the adamantium one, the glue one, the sonic one. The explosive one wouldn't do much, his face is armored too. Also, Hawkeye is being attacked at the same time as all this. Anyway, a lot of these specific match-ups may not come up, my point was more that there are a lot of ways for our teams to fight in a straight-up battle, and my team could do pretty well overall. When you take the strategy into account, though, this is all kind of moot, I probably should have started with the strategy. There may have been a few more things in your post, I'll get back to them later.


Moon Knight's face is NOT armored. Please stop with the lies. They're too easy to debunk.
 
You can see very clearly that only his chest/legs/arms are covered with Carbonadium, and even that has sections that aren't covered. The head/hood is just cloth.
 

Hawkeye can hit the weak points in Iron Man's molecularly aligned armor. You think he can't hit the weak points in Moon Knight's?
 


Anyway, hopefully I've shown here what I started with at the very beginning, which is that Elektra is by no means going to get rolled by anyone in H2H. Possibly beaten in the long run by Black Panther, but not quickly at all. Black Widow and Moon Knight, as I said at the very beginning, are below DD. But together, they're a decent force to be reckoned with in H2H. And Cardiac provides the brawn and the energy power. I think our teams are fairly close, but I think mine can take this, especially using my strategy as outlined above.


 
You think Elektra will be a tough fight for Black Panther?
 
I don't. He's taken down better martial artists in less time and that's without the Ebony Blade.
 
Black Panther vs Karnak. One shot.
 

 
Black Panther vs Wolverine - who as you said, is faster than Elektra, still isn't faster than Black Panther. One shot.
 
Black Panther vs Captain America - They're more closely matched in physical ability. But Panther makes his fighting skill count. Cap did have a shoulder injury (iirc) before the fight. But Black Panther isn't bloodlusted, w/ Ebony Blade here either.
 



To reiterate: I don't need trackers, because I'm assuming you find me first. Cardiac makes it so your team isn't able to hide until you get close enough to ambush my team--you can ambush, but only from a distance, and in this jungle, distance shots aren't really going to work. So Black Widow hobbles DD with a sonic grenade. Elektra uses her stealth to take out DD and Hawkeye quickly, so Hawkeye never really gets to be a factor. Then they all finish off Black Panther. It may not work as smoothly as all that (he may well take out a couple before he's done), but generally speaking I think it would work.

 
You seem to think you can track people without trackers. That's weird and non-sensical to me. I don't understand how you think Cardiac shooting trees makes a difference or makes you able to track us. Sonic Grenades are more useful against stationary targets with non-ludicrous dodge feats. DD can dodge grenades. It's a projectile. He just has to escape the blast radius or throw it back at her. Or Black Panther can just stand in front of it and absorb the sonic vibrations with his vibranium suit. Your entire scenario is based around conditions that do not exist.
#12 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: I hate to interject, but in regards to the suit, all of it is a vibranium microweave. It's just in mesh form, rather than it being a metallic ore.

As far as the beta particle beams having an effect on the suit, beta particles are electromagnetic. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own.

#13 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio

In other news, BP isn't the only one with a microweave costume.
 
Daredevil's is a micro-meash steel weave made by Reed Richards. Boosh.

Also, Static has been kind enough to provide some scans of Energy Daggers and Anti-Metal in action since I don't have every volume of Black Panther myself. (Though these scans appear to be from Avengers comics).
 
Here is the Energy Daggers in actions against Ultron. The scans state pretty clearly what I believed, that they are intangible and bypass armor. In this case they go through Ultron's adamantium body in order to disrupt his electronic brain. 
 

Here is Hank Pym using some Antartic Vibranium to destroy Ultron (again, vs Adamantium).
#14 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

ha, you complain about me writing a lot!

Look, I haven't been doing anything like pretending that your characters are weak. I'm just exploiting their weaknesses. You're the one pretending mine are weak.

You're also just ignoring and overstating things, and repeating things that don't matter. I KNOW I don't have a tracker. The point is it doesn't matter. I don't need to know where you are, because I know you're going to come to me. What I'm doing is keeping you from ambushing me, which is perfectly logical. All I have to do is make you start your attack from a little greater distance than you'd like, which puts us on much more even footing than the ambush strategy you started with. And by using Cardiac to blast around the area as they go along, I can do that. This is pretty straightforward. I'm not knocking any giant trees over, and I'm not underestimating your characters' intelligence. If you think so, give me a specific example of how that is happening.

I'm sorry you choose to not believe the scan of Elektra avoiding Matt's radar, what can I do. Of course in the earlier scan, where he says he can't tell what her heartbeat is doing (not that she can disguise it, that she can control it), he can sense her--because she intentionally came up to him to talk to him. She's not trying to avoid him there. Do I know how her avoidance power works? No, because this is comic books and they don't always explain things in a way that makes sense. But it works anyway.

My team IS prepared in the sense that they know who you are. You do NOT know who I am and cannot identify mine, that's part of the rules of the tournament.

Black Panther does not have his powers here, so he does not have his senses.

Vibranium absorbs sound/vibration/kinetic energy, but does not absorb all kinds of energy, so Cardiac's beta blasts will be able to affect him.

Your examples of Daredevil and Hawkeye hiding out and ambushing people are pretty weak. There's nothing impressive there.

So there will be no surprise jumping of my team and cutting them in half. My team will be ready, will attacks yours as you come close, using my team's superior distance attacks (sonic grenade on DD, widow's bite, beta blasts, throwing stars, crescent darts). Any of your team that's left will fall to my superior numbers.

Numbers are actually meaningless compared to skill. Ever seen HYDRA take down Captain America with 30 goons? No. Please do not apply the same tactics to a tournament. It's vaguely insulting.

Numbers are important when there's a high level of skill involved. Stop lowballing MY characters. Hydra goons? Please.

Cool. Sonic Grenades on a person she can't see, hear or smell. A person she has absolutely no way of detecting and a person she has in the past been unable to land a single hit on. Daredevil doesn't have any dodging feats btw, he basically never dodges anything. It's not the defining trait of his character. You'll win this debate. I especially like the part where she picks up someone else's gear (who she had no way of finding, let alone defeating). I've already listed a dozen ways Hawkeye can incapacitate anyone on your team, yet you still pretend like I didn't. Saying it's futile for him to attacking anyone. Now if I'm going to read the essay you turn out and respond to every word you write, I expect the exact same courtesy. If you're not going to address my posts, especially the parts that wreck your tactics and team composition then we can just take it to voting. I'm not going to sit here debunking your arguments all day only to have you ignore it and rewrite your posts verbatim.

It's kind of hard to dodge sonic grenades, considering that the actual physical thing itself isn't the thing you need to avoid, it's the sound it makes all around it. DD goes down pretty quick when it comes to sonics. Black Panther can come in and absorb the sonics, but how fast is that going to happen? I think DD goes down first. And yes, once he does, Elektra picks up his sword.

I'm not saying she's going to do this when he's hidden. I'm saying that eventually, he and Black Panther are going to have to show themselves and attack. When that happens, the sonic grenade comes out, and Elektra attacks, etc. So if that was confusing, then I'm sorry. In terms of Hawkeye, I'm saying that Elektra is getting the drop on him, so I don't think he's going to get off many arrows. Some of his are effective, I agree. Although honestly I don't think your scans of his arrows or dodging were all that impressive, I've seen him do better honestly.

In terms of all this reading and writing courtesy stuff, I don't really think that's what's going on. You're mostly being condescending and ignoring tons of my points. I've been addressing yours, as far as you've made them. You haven't actually presented a strategy or any kind of tactics that are supposedly going to wreck my team, other than your first ambush option, which isn't going to work because they're not going to get close enough,so they're going to have to melee. And there I've got the stonger team. Are Hawkeye's arrows going to be effective? Sure, to some degree, But you haven't laid out any particular plans on who he's going to try to attack first, if he's going to try to hide back and shoot from a distance (good luck in the jungle) or come in close, etc. You're not actually telling me who Black Panther is going to attack first, what he's going to use, etc. So it's hard for me to debunk you when you haven't laid out a specific plan of attack.

I showed the first page because Matt gets the first bunch of hits in. He is bloodlusted with a katana, how many hits do you think he'll actually need? You can produce classic age scans of Elektra jumping near-unconscious Daredevils until the cows come home. In the modern era she doesn't hold a candle to him. If you think taking 3 punches and 1 kick to the head and getting someone in an ambiguous grapple in return is a good trade... well I'm glad I'm not you. I know which hurts more. Check out her hold on him. It's lose and weak. In the story she isn't even trying to fight him properly. She's all in love with him, etc. He has (clearly) moved on. And bloodlusted.

The only decisive win Elektra has over Matt there is by using a bear-trap. A bear-trap. You don't have a bear-trap. He was beating her ass inside out before that. Your scans honestly lend more weight to my arguments than yours.

If that's the way you read those scans, I suppose that's the way you read them. But when I see the first one (where you posted just the first page originally), it looks pretty darn clear to me that she got him. In the second one, I pointed out myself that we don't have any prep or traps or whatever. And in that fight, I count three times that she hit him, and twice he hit her, so that's hardly beating her her ass.

Funny about her being the world's greatest ninja. Who is her competition? Wolverine is a samurai, not a ninja. I can't actually think of any other fighter except Elektra who actually identifies themselves as a ninja. It's an empty accomplishment.

Umm..really? I'm pretty sure the point is that there are many people with ninja skills (like Matt), and she is the greatest of those. Wolverine was trained by Ogun, a ninja.

What are you even talking about? He dodges the RPG from a rooftop away. You can see very clearly in the scans Bushman is on another rooftop. Know who else has beaten Mr. Hyde? Daredevil and Patriot of the Young Avengers. Moon Knight struggles against Bushman who has no powers, isn't even olympic level human and has no special skills or training. That's kind of weaksauce.

Actually, they're on the same rooftop. If you really want, I can scan the previous page that shows them together. Sure, Mr. Hyde has been beaten before, it's still not bad any time a normal human beats a 70 tonner or whatever Hyde is now.

Cardiac brings down a building right there in that second scan.

Showing one scan of Spider-Man getting hit by Bullseye does not prove that Spider-Man cannot dodge Bullseye. It's ludicrous to say that Spider-Man, who has super-human speed and agility, and a spider-sense, isn't better at dodging than Matt, who is human, and whose radar sense tells him where things are, but does not in any way actually direct him as to how to avoid projectiles--as Spidey's spidey sense does.

You don't even have adamantium so I don't know why that is an argument. You don't have any armor that can stand up to either weapon and certainly not anti-metal claws. I actually don't have that many scans of Energy Daggers in use, but I'll try to check through my BP comics and scan some up. It's basically a single dagger that can shoot out many energy (dagger-sized) blasts per second.

Carbonadium is a weaker form of adamantium. But I agree that the anti-metal claws are a problem for Moon Knight.

Moon Knight's face is NOT armored.

OK, that's true, I checked back and I misread the way it's drawn.

Black Panther scans: some are impressive, for sure, especially Karnak's. But in the Cap one, Cap himself says it wouldn't work that way in a real fight, and he's already hurt ahead of time. But I've said all along that BP is the best fighter here, so that doesn't change my opinion much. And yes, I still do think Elektra could hang with him for a while. More importantly, I think Elektra could beat him in combination with other members of my team, since I outnumber you.

And while he's good, it's not like he's untouchable. Here are various scans of him recently. An everyday Hand ninja cutting him pretty good in the side. The Kingpin knocking him around. (I will point out that after both these Kingpin fights, BP says he was using the fight to distract Kingpin. But, if all he wanted to do was distract him, why not just beat Kingpin up? He clearly wasn't able to fully take Kingpin out, and takes some pretty serious hits. And this is in his own series.) BP was hit by darts by Kraven and had to be saved from falling to death by Storm. BP getting kicked by Kraven, then snagged by a total neophyte's stone-control attack, and falling off the building again. Now of course in all this he won in the end. But my point is, he's able to be hit, and when those people have abilities like my team, one hit means something. I'm not saying I"m going to one-shot him or anything, but he's not going to one-shot anyone else either, especially if they attack from a distance.

Daredevil may have a microweave set of "armor" in that scan, but he has hardly been using it lately. Heck, his costume got all ripped up in a bus crash recently.

So, I don't think anything I'm saying here is all that nuts. My team is made of good fighters, and has some strategic advantages over yours. Your team is made of good fighters, and has some strategic advantages over mine. But I think mine will eventually win.

What I'd really like to hear is what your team's specific plan is, other than the ambush strategy, because they're not going to be able to fully implement it. Who is going to attack who, and using what. When you tell me their plan, then I can talk in a little more detail about whether I think it might work, or whether I have a counter.

#15 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1641 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

Vibranium absorbs sound/vibration/kinetic energy, but does not absorb all kinds of energy, so Cardiac's beta blasts will be able to affect him.

I was assuming you'd read my post in response to you and then re-read the post you quoted from me.

Anyway, in the post that you quoted from me, it states that suit absorbs electromagnetic and light-based wavelength beams. Iron Man stated this in his battle with T'Challa, and also said that his Repulsor blasts (which are heavily based on electromagnetic energy, and have shown to have more destructive force than Cardiac's beta blasts) wouldn't even work on the suit. Hunter tried to use T'Challa's own energy daggers (also electromagnetic) on the suit and they had no effect. Based on this, there's no reason to assume that Cardiac's beta blasts (which are composed of beta particles, also considered electromagnetic by scientific standards; you can even look this up) would have an effect. There was even a time the suit absorbed one of Storm's lightning bolts, and it had no effect on T'Challa.

I don't mind you using what I say as a source, but you could at least apply to your argument properly and not misconstrue what I said. If you need confirmation of this, I can always provide scans.

#17 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 is full of bums.....

Team 2. Spite thread.

#18 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lantern Prime said:

Team 1 is full of bums.....

Team 2. Spite thread.

It's a tournament thread...

Moderator
#19 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress:

I know what it is.

I'm just saying team 1 is full of bums.

#20 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lantern Prime said:

@The Dark Huntress:

I know what it is.

I'm just saying team 1 is full of bums.

Despite my disagreeing with team 1 being full of bums, I was addressing your second statement more than anything. It can't really be a spite thread when it's a tournament, as the entire point of the thread is the debate itself. They could be debating TOAA against Blob and if the person who is debating for Blob puts up a better argument or the person debating for TOAA fails to call the other debater on BS arguments for Blob, the person debating for Blob could potentially win the match.

Moderator
#21 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress:

If you wanna a debate then we can debate.

#22 Posted by Montaq (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lantern Prime said:

Team 1 is full of bums.....

Team 2. Spite thread.

We don't judge on who would win, we judge on who makes a better argument.

#23 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lantern Prime said:

@The Dark Huntress:

If you wanna a debate then we can debate.

Except it's a tournament thread and not for us to debate.

I think you're missing my points entirely.

@Montaq: This is what I've been saying.

Moderator
#24 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh ok..I'm not used to that...

#25 Posted by Montaq (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lantern Prime said:

Oh ok..I'm not used to that...

It's ok, tournament threads are different from normal battles. Now you know.

#26 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@Owie said:

Vibranium absorbs sound/vibration/kinetic energy, but does not absorb all kinds of energy, so Cardiac's beta blasts will be able to affect him.

I was assuming you'd read my post in response to you and then re-read the post you quoted from me.

Anyway, in the post that you quoted from me, it states that suit absorbs electromagnetic and light-based wavelength beams. Iron Man stated this in his battle with T'Challa, and also said that his Repulsor blasts (which are heavily based on electromagnetic energy, and have shown to have more destructive force than Cardiac's beta blasts) wouldn't even work on the suit. Hunter tried to use T'Challa's own energy daggers (also electromagnetic) on the suit and they had no effect. Based on this, there's no reason to assume that Cardiac's beta blasts (which are composed of beta particles, also considered electromagnetic by scientific standards; you can even look this up) would have an effect. There was even a time the suit absorbed one of Storm's lightning bolts, and it had no effect on T'Challa.

I don't mind you using what I say as a source, but you could at least apply to your argument properly and not misconstrue what I said. If you need confirmation of this, I can always provide scans.

Oh hell, my bad. I did read it originally, but then when I was thinking about the armor, I started thinking about vibranium in general, and how personally the only energy I'd ever heard it absorb was kinetic. So I looked it up all over the place, and everything I read said it only absorbs kinetic/sound energy. I did remember (without re-reading) in your post that Iron Man's repulsors didn't work on it, but I think of them as concussive energy, so I mentally filed that under kinetic. Seems like perhaps the suit's composition is somehow different from normal vibranium, then?

Oh well. Sorry.

But there does seem to me the possibility that he could potentially overload it, given the other times he has taken some damage. Although the point about Iron Man's greater power is well taken.

#27 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: It's all the same vibranium. Not saying that it absorbs all forms of energy, but it has been shown to absorb many different forms of it. It even absorbs lasers and magical energy (as stated and shown in Doomwar).

#28 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanted to follow up with some details about Black Widow and Moon Knight.

Your point about the Black Widow scans is well taken, in the sense that I agree that what is shown there is what I would call "baseline super hero skills"--taking out a bunch of thugs in a very efficient way. It's all the scans of her I've got, so it's the best I can do. I've looked for more, but haven't found any. The durability scan, where she gets shot and doesn't even flinch, is impressive though. I do think her basic rep is worth something. I mean, people like Nick Fury, Daredevil, and Bucky aren't going to team up with her for no reason. So I don't think there's any real lack of belief in her skills out there in comic land. But I wouldn't put her above Daredevil or anything, as I've said from the beginning. It's her Bite that's key here. In terms of shooting skills, I understand what you're saying about wanting to prove it through any especially tricky shots, but again, I have no scans. Her rep is certainly that she is an expert marksman. At fairly close quarters like these, I don't think it would be really be much of a stretch for almost any of these characters to hit anyone, except making adjustments for their various dodging skills.

So, some other adjustments, before I get to Moon Knight. I guess I am going to have to give up on Cardiac's ability to blast BP's suit. And I am now taking into account that pretty much everyone here can be hurt by the muramasa swords, the ebony blade, the energy daggers, and the anti-metal claws. So the question is, who's attacking who, and with what, exactly? Again, if you can give me specifics about your plans, I can talk more specifically in return.

I wanted to just be as clear as possible about my strategy. Your team is going to be waiting for me in the woods. Their best shot is to get as close to me as possible before attacking, so they can make the most of their swords, and I can't make the most of my distance attacks. So Cardiac is going to be shooting around in the woods as he walks at any obvious hiding places, to flush them out, so they aren't able to start as close to us as they would like. My team obviously doesn't have any particular sensors. But they do have eyes, and I think they stand a decent chance of seeing you guys no matter what, considering that they're mostly pretty perceptive, infiltration-style fighters. The Black Panther is going to be great at camouflage, but not the others. Anyway your team is not just going to sit there while Cardiac is beating the bushes. Eventually your team is going to have to attack, and I think they will have to do it earlier (from a greater distance) than they would wish. So that gives me the chance to use the sonics, etc., and I think take out your two unprotected guys fairly quick (Elektra gambit or no Elektra gambit). There will be some damage from Hawkeye, I'm sure, but not enough to stop all of my team by any means. Then the rest gang up on Panther.

Anyway, on to Moon Knight. As you described him, he has dodging or accuracy feats. Here's what I have found, and honestly my estimation of him has only gone up. I have literally twice as much as this if you want it.

Accuracy: Some nice stuff, including hitting gun barrels in the hole, cutting off a cigarrette tip, cutting off a dynamite stick's fuse, breaking a heavy gun barrel in half, targeting people's hands specifically, and a nice bank shot off a tombstone into a hand.

Other skills: catching a crossbow bolt from close range (1st 2 pics), reflecting darts off his wrists, and using nerve cluster attacks.

Dodging: dodging various guns and lasers, often in great barrages or from close range, including from the Punisher.

Agility: a very gymnastic fighting style.

Fights: Black Knight (showing he's a smart fighter), stalemating a radar-less Daredevil, a fight against a ton of Infinity Crusade doppelgangers (who are all supposed to be as tough as the originals, you'll recall that some of them beat their originals), beating the snot out of Taskmaster (in opposition to the scan of yours with him above; his ability to tank damage is pretty extreme...I have a ton of willpower scans if you want), and two fights with Deadpool (both in the same line of scans)--the first one is OK, in the second he totally destroys him.

Also, about his invisibility---I've never seen it in action. I read it in his bio. It makes sense with his moon powers, but I can't prove it. Anyway, I am again not saying he is at Daredevil's level, but he's pretty darn accurate (no, not as much as Hawkeye), pretty able to take a hit, and pretty agile. And the arrow-catching thing will come in handy here.

Annnd....one last one, of Cardiac tagging Spidey by hand, certainly no mean feat.

Good night Gracie!

#29 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio

Unrelated to this debate, Classic Moon Knight was leagues more impressive than current Moon Knight.

#30 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie: Well, as I said, I have to reply to everything you say. It'd be rude to ignore it. But having said that, I feel like you're reiterating what I consider to be a vastly inferior tactic. So I'm ready to go to voting after this if you don't have anything new to say.
 
In my mind, attacking aimlessly with energy blasts isn't going to draw out my team, who can track you all day. If you believe differently then I am happy to take it to voting and let other people decide if you're right about the tactical abilities of Black Panther, Daredevil and Hawkeye. You aren't, since I've already shown them taking their time to ambush enemies with scans. So people can actually see that you're wrong. But you're persisting with it, so we aren't moving forward. That's when a debate has run it's course.
 

Look, I haven't been doing anything like pretending that your characters are weak. I'm just exploiting their weaknesses. You're the one pretending mine are weak.


Again, you seem to think your fighters are in the same tier as mine, but you can't prove they are. Here's why: They aren't. I'm not lowballing you. I honestly don't think Elektra, Black Widow or Moon Knight are in ballpark of Black Panther or Daredevil. They just aren't. I've already shown scans of Daredevil trouncing Black Widow, getting (what would be in this scenario) decisive hits against Elektra and Moon Knight is generally a much worse fighter. Moon Knight's fighting skill isn't even close to top tier. If you want more scans of him losing badly, let me know.
 
I showed you scans of Black Panther easily dealing with Karnak, Captain America and Wolverine. You don't have a single fighter in their range. No one on your team can beat Black Panther or Daredevil, let alone bloodlusted and carrying superweapons. That's if you also disregard my obvious advantage at being able to track your team, which you are doing anyway. When you add in an ambush you cannot satisfactorily avoid, you have a stomp in my favor. I am still dumbstruck that your plan to avoid an ambush is "have Cardiac blast ...things" - that isn't a sound tactic dude.
 

You're also just ignoring and overstating things, and repeating things that don't matter. I KNOW I don't have a tracker. The point is it doesn't matter. I don't need to know where you are, because I know you're going to come to me. What I'm doing is keeping you from ambushing me, which is perfectly logical. All I have to do is make you start your attack from a little greater distance than you'd like, which puts us on much more even footing than the ambush strategy you started with. And by using Cardiac to blast around the area as they go along, I can do that. This is pretty straightforward. I'm not knocking any giant trees over, and I'm not underestimating your characters' intelligence. If you think so, give me a specific example of how that is happening.


You think you can draw my team out without a tracker? You must be new here. You can't. They aren't morons. They will attack when it is most advantageous for them.
 
And who am I overstating? I will show my guys in canon scans (unlike your Elektra vs Wolverine showings) taking on top tier fighters and winning. You aren't doing the same. I'm showing what they can actually do, day in and day out, before the addons of bloodlust and blades that can cut through any material in the world. I'm not trying to inflate their abilities, they're just better.
 

I'm not knocking any giant trees over, and I'm not underestimating your characters' intelligence. If you think so, give me a specific example of how that is happening. 


How are you blasting apart dense amazon jungle without knocking over giant trees? I think you're insulting the average readers intelligence, and my own. Think about it in practice and let me know if you still think it would help in the slightest.
 

Numbers are important when there's a high level of skill involved. Stop lowballing MY characters. Hydra goons? Please.


There is a high level of skill involved, just not on your team. When your skill level is significantly higher than someone else's (as BP/DD are over your whole team) it doesn't matter how many of them there are. That's what the HYDRA goon example illustrates. If you want a better one:
Gorgon can take on Wolverine and Elektra at the same time and win. It's a function of his fighting skill more than anything since his powers are actually very similar to Wolverine's. 4v3 is not a great advantage when your team is significantly outmatched skill-wise.
 

It's kind of hard to dodge sonic grenades, considering that the actual physical thing itself isn't the thing you need to avoid, it's the sound it makes all around it. DD goes down pretty quick when it comes to sonics. Black Panther can come in and absorb the sonics, but how fast is that going to happen? I think DD goes down first. And yes, once he does, Elektra picks up his sword.

Black Panther and Daredevil are faster than anyone on your team and they're all bullet timers (except maybe Moon Knight). Grenades are a thrown projectile and travel much, much slower than bullets. Why is this hard?
 
Those scans are worthless. One is Klaw (who is living sound and can project vastly more raw sound than a grenade), the other is where Daredevil is clearly trying to interrogate someone. There is no interrogation here. He's bloodlusted and has a Muramasa. He's not asking for information on a crime lord. He's decapitating you.
 

I'm not saying she's going to do this when he's hidden. I'm saying that eventually, he and Black Panther are going to have to show themselves and attack. When that happens, the sonic grenade comes out, and Elektra attacks, etc. So if that was confusing, then I'm sorry. In terms of Hawkeye, I'm saying that Elektra is getting the drop on him, so I don't think he's going to get off many arrows. Some of his are effective, I agree. Although honestly I don't think your scans of his arrows or dodging were all that impressive, I've seen him do better honestly.

How does Elektra even get the jump on Hawkeye? This is why you buy trackers. So you can track people. Elektra doesn't have enhanced senses, stop pretending she does. It's annoying and flagrant. Hawkeye dodged attacks similar to your best (energy blasts) - it's nice that you've seen him dodge better but that's all he needs to do to evade everything you can throw at him and school you from range. Even if everything worked as you say, which it never could because you don't have the means to accomplish it. Hawkeye can hit himself with a force field arrow or shrink himself down to atomic size with a Pym Particle Arrow and escape. Elektra can't beat him. She doesn't have the tools required.
 
Where is the evidence that Black Widow even gets time to use a sonic grenade? And at the end of the day, it's just a grenade. It's not a sonic bomb or a thermal nuclear sonic warhead. It has a blast radius whether you accept it or not and that blast radius is not greater than a frag grenade. Sound disappates, especially in a thick jungle. And that is assuming she has the time to get it off. Why would she? As seen in the scans, Matt was able to go from standing right in front of her to choking her out. That's within her vision, she still wasn't fast enough to react. When she is taken unawares? Game over.
You're operating under this pretense:
Cardiac shoots an energy blast at a tree (amazing), my team walk out in the open and say "aww, you got us". 
 
What is it about an ambush you don't understand? They know where you are. They attack when you aren't suspecting it. You aren't fast enough to react. You have no warning ahead of time. Their weapons one-shot everything. You die. Case closed.
 

In terms of all this reading and writing courtesy stuff, I don't really think that's what's going on. You're mostly being condescending and ignoring tons of my points. I've been addressing yours, as far as you've made them. You haven't actually presented a strategy or any kind of tactics that are supposedly going to wreck my team, other than your first ambush option, which isn't going to work because they're not going to get close enough,so they're going to have to melee. And there I've got the stonger team. Are Hawkeye's arrows going to be effective? Sure, to some degree, But you haven't laid out any particular plans on who he's going to try to attack first, if he's going to try to hide back and shoot from a distance (good luck in the jungle) or come in close, etc. You're not actually telling me who Black Panther is going to attack first, what he's going to use, etc. So it's hard for me to debunk you when you haven't laid out a specific plan of attack.


Which points am I ignoring? I'm not trying to but all of your tactics would end in your team being demolished. I'm not trying to be condescending either. I honestly do think I have a much better team composition and I really do think I have every possible advantage. Also, I presented my strategy first. It's my first post in this thread. You haven't adequately countered it. Daredevil can identify your whole team by their heartbeat. Even if you buy that Elektra can evade it, she can't evade Black Panther. They track down, shadow and systematically exterminate your team. Unless you can detect them, you can't counter that. If you want laid plans, have at thee:
 
Strategy
-Black Panther jumps Elektra, he will win. She can't detect him, his suit is totally soundless, etc. He is faster and more skilled. She can't avoid him or survive his Ebony Blade. He will win instantly.
-Hawkeye fires an Adamantium Arrow through the middle of Cardiac's Staff and it discharges in his hands and blasts him off his feet. Black Panther throws a flurry of energy daggers at Black Widow/Moon Knight. (I can prove with scans the staff can be broken and will discharge it's energy blasts when that happens if you like)
-Daredevil ambushes the now distracted Black Widow and Moon Knight, killing them in that order with two slashes of his Muramasa Blade.
-Black Panther finishes off Cardiac (who can't hurt him) with his Ebony Blade.
 
There is nothing in your strategy so far that can stop them from doing this. Nothing short of a titantic dose of PIS will have my characters execute a lesser tactic with lesser efficiency. You do not have the fighting skills, speed, reflexes or tracking ability to avoid this.
Even in the dizziest of daydreams where you get an even melee fight (which you apparently crave) you will lose soundly. No one on your team can take down Black Panther. Your whole team put together cannot beat Black Panther. When you add in Daredevil with the Muramasa and Hawkeye with trick arrows it becomes an absolute stomp any way you look at it. Everyone on my team can dodge your best attacks. Everyone on my team can either win or hold their own against anyone on your team. You have no way of isolating anyone on my team for a 4v1 (no way of tracking or detecting) and you have no way of avoiding or surviving the attacks of A) Energy Daggers to the face, B) Ebony Blade, C) Muramasa, D) Adamantium Arrows to vital locations, E) Glue Arrows to the feet followed by Explosive Arrows to the face. Pick your poison. Whatever way you cut it, your team goes down like a cup of concrete.
 

If that's the way you read those scans, I suppose that's the way you read them. But when I see the first one (where you posted just the first page originally), it looks pretty darn clear to me that she got him. In the second one, I pointed out myself that we don't have any prep or traps or whatever. And in that fight, I count three times that she hit him, and twice he hit her, so that's hardly beating her her ass.


Well, let the people decide on that scan bro. He punches her in the face a few times, kicks her in the head and she gets him in the loosest of headlocks (actually easy to escape for a martial artist). If you think that's a win for Elektra, go for it. She gets the first hits in that classic era scan but he is winning the fight before he gets hit by a bear trap. The whole fight from start to finish has prep time and elements you don't have here. Your strategy revolves around you somehow luring our team into a straight fight. Elektra will lose a straight fight against Daredevil. You do not have a scan of a straight up fight between the two. There is a reason for that.
 

Umm..really? I'm pretty sure the point is that there are many people with ninja skills (like Matt), and she is the greatest of those. Wolverine was trained by Ogun, a ninja.


Neither Daredevil nor Wolverine identify as a ninja. You can't be the best of something you aren't. Having training in ninjitsu does not make you a ninja. A ninja is a mercenary who kills or assassinates people by using ninjitsu techniques. The Hand's services were always available to the highest bidder. As was Elektra's. Wolverine and Daredevil are not mercenaries. Ogun would shitstomp Elektra. He was a martial arts master and sorcerer, the fact that he also mastered ninjitsu doesn't make him just a ninja. He didn't sell his services.
 

Actually, they're on the same rooftop. If you really want, I can scan the previous page that shows them together. Sure, Mr. Hyde has been beaten before, it's still not bad any time a normal human beats a 70 tonner or whatever Hyde is now.


It's actually not that great either way because A) Raul Bushman isn't a marksman to any extent B) I'm not using similar weapons. Dodging Bushman's RPG doesn't enable him to dodge Hawkeye or out-fight Daredevil or Black Panther. Hyde wasn't a 70 tonner back then, but it doesn't matter. He lost to Patriot. A teenage kid with no powers and no fighting skills to speak of. Hyde is a pretty worthless example because what counts here is not raw strength. It's fighting skill and he has none.
 


Cardiac brings down a building right there in that second scan.

 Impressive, though as we've seen his blasts are entirely dodge-able and since your tactic is to have him fire energy blasts are nothing in particular, dodging shouldn't be very difficult. He's not even aiming at my team to begin with.
 

Showing one scan of Spider-Man getting hit by Bullseye does not prove that Spider-Man cannot dodge Bullseye. It's ludicrous to say that Spider-Man, who has super-human speed and agility, and a spider-sense, isn't better at dodging than Matt, who is human, and whose radar sense tells him where things are, but does not in any way actually direct him as to how to avoid projectiles--as Spidey's spidey sense does.


Then perhaps you should prove that Spider-Man can dodge Bullseye. I can remember their fights. I don't ever remember Spider-Man outright avoiding a projectile from Lester.
 
Daredevil has dodged things that Spider-Man can't. That makes him better at dodging. Whether you agree or not is not relevant. Radar-sense > Spider-sense when it comes to dodging projectiles, based on evidence.
 

Black Panther scans: some are impressive, for sure, especially Karnak's. But in the Cap one, Cap himself says it wouldn't work that way in a real fight, and he's already hurt ahead of time. But I've said all along that BP is the best fighter here, so that doesn't change my opinion much. And yes, I still do think Elektra could hang with him for a while. More importantly, I think Elektra could beat him in combination with other members of my team, since I outnumber you.


I can't imagine what comics you've read that give you the idea that numbers are more important than skill. They aren't and it's 4v3. You have only a slight numeric advantage and a gaping skill differential. Cap says it wouldn't work in a real fight, Black Panther says really? (implying he thinks it would). Either way, Black Panther outfought Captain America. I can give you more examples of Black Panther dominating better fighters than you have if you like.
 

And while he's good, it's not like he's untouchable. Here are various scans of him recently. An everyday Hand ninja cutting him pretty good in the side. The Kingpin knocking him around. (I will point out that after both these Kingpin fights, BP says he was using the fight to distract Kingpin. But, if all he wanted to do was distract him, why not just beat Kingpin up? He clearly wasn't able to fully take Kingpin out, and takes some pretty serious hits. And this is in his own series.) BP was hit by darts by Kraven and had to be saved from falling to death by Storm. BP getting kicked by Kraven, then snagged by a total neophyte's stone-control attack, and falling off the building again. Now of course in all this he won in the end. But my point is, he's able to be hit, and when those people have abilities like my team, one hit means something. I'm not saying I"m going to one-shot him or anything, but he's not going to one-shot anyone else either, especially if they attack from a distance.


Most of those are from the current (and awful) Black Panther series where he has no powers or vibranium armor, gadgets, etc. That isn't the case here. I can have gerald come and confirm if you like but the character I bought is classic BP. They don't apply here.
 
What comic is the Kingpin fight from? I don't recognize it.
#31 Posted by Static Shock (47330 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane said:

Most of those are from the current (and awful) Black Panther series where he has no powers or vibranium armor, gadgets, etc. That isn't the case here. I can have gerald come and confirm if you like but the character I bought is classic BP. They don't apply here. What comic is the Kingpin fight from? I don't recognize it.

Black Panther: The Most Dangerous Man Alive (it was previously called the Man Without Fear). Can't remember the issue numbers.

#32 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie

Your point about the Black Widow scans is well taken, in the sense that I agree that what is shown there is what I would call "baseline super hero skills"--taking out a bunch of thugs in a very efficient way. It's all the scans of her I've got, so it's the best I can do. I've looked for more, but haven't found any. The durability scan, where she gets shot and doesn't even flinch, is impressive though. I do think her basic rep is worth something. I mean, people like Nick Fury, Daredevil, and Bucky aren't going to team up with her for no reason. So I don't think there's any real lack of belief in her skills out there in comic land. But I wouldn't put her above Daredevil or anything, as I've said from the beginning. It's her Bite that's key here. In terms of shooting skills, I understand what you're saying about wanting to prove it through any especially tricky shots, but again, I have no scans. Her rep is certainly that she is an expert marksman. At fairly close quarters like these, I don't think it would be really be much of a stretch for almost any of these characters to hit anyone, except making adjustments for their various dodging skills.

Taking a bullet it's honestly a good thing. And even if she can survive a bullet, there are so many things she won't survive even one hit of that my team is bringing to the table that is doesn't matter. I don't understand your logic. You think she is a good fighter but she has no good showings against a reputable fighter? You think she's good because people team up with her? Quick note about Nick Fury, Daredevil and Bucky? They all slept with Black Widow. That's why they team up with her. Dat ass. They just want to keep her close. I mean Batman teams up with Robin. It doesn't make Damien Wayne a high tier fighter. It's his son, he wants him around. I'm not interested in her 'rep'. Black Canary has a 'rep' as a high tier fighter. It doesn't make her one. She has very few actual fighting skill feats and Black Widow has even less.
 

So, some other adjustments, before I get to Moon Knight. I guess I am going to have to give up on Cardiac's ability to blast BP's suit. And I am now taking into account that pretty much everyone here can be hurt by the muramasa swords, the ebony blade, the energy daggers, and the anti-metal claws. So the question is, who's attacking who, and with what, exactly? Again, if you can give me specifics about your plans, I can talk more specifically in return.


Pretty much what I said from the start. Vibranium has always been shown to absorb energy blasts (EM) like Cardiac's. I don't know why you argued against it, but w/e.
 

I wanted to just be as clear as possible about my strategy. Your team is going to be waiting for me in the woods. Their best shot is to get as close to me as possible before attacking, so they can make the most of their swords, and I can't make the most of my distance attacks. So Cardiac is going to be shooting around in the woods as he walks at any obvious hiding places, to flush them out, so they aren't able to start as close to us as they would like. My team obviously doesn't have any particular sensors. But they do have eyes, and I think they stand a decent chance of seeing you guys no matter what, considering that they're mostly pretty perceptive, infiltration-style fighters. The Black Panther is going to be great at camouflage, but not the others. Anyway your team is not just going to sit there while Cardiac is beating the bushes. Eventually your team is going to have to attack, and I think they will have to do it earlier (from a greater distance) than they would wish. So that gives me the chance to use the sonics, etc., and I think take out your two unprotected guys fairly quick (Elektra gambit or no Elektra gambit). There will be some damage from Hawkeye, I'm sure, but not enough to stop all of my team by any means. Then the rest gang up on Panther.

It's a jungle. What is an 'obvious hiding place'? Ever played hide and go seek in a jungle? Spoiler: It's like 52 player monopoly. It goes for awhile. Your strategy is for guys like Black Widow and Moon Knight to look for Daredevil/Black Panther with their completely human senses. Seems like a winning formula. There is nothing about your tactics that would even vaguely hamper my team from executing their plans.
 

Accuracy: Some nice stuff, including hitting gun barrels in the hole, cutting off a cigarrette tip, cutting off a dynamite stick's fuse, breaking a heavy gun barrel in half, targeting people's hands specifically, and a nice bank shot off a tombstone into a hand.


It seems impressive and it's certainly good to read. But those are all stationary targets against nameless goons. It's nothing like tagging a legitimate fighter. Everyone on my team has accuracy on that level or greater. And as we saw with Taskmaster, a skilled fighter can catch Moon Knight's projectiles and throw them back. I'm having trouble uploading scans right now but I will post some up as soon as I can to back up accuracy feats for my team.
 

Other skills: catching a crossbow bolt from close range (1st 2 pics), reflecting darts off his wrists, and using nerve cluster attacks.

 
Daredevil and indeed most street levelers can catch arrows or dodge close range bullets. I knew Moon Knight was capable of these things. Moon Knight is actually one of my favorites, but he isn't in the same league of fighting skill as Daredevil or Black Panther. He just has no way to beat them, especially when they're bloodlusted and has superweapon swords.
 

Fights: Black Knight (showing he's a smart fighter), stalemating a radar-less Daredevil, a fight against a ton of Infinity Crusade doppelgangers (who are all supposed to be as tough as the originals, you'll recall that some of them beat their originals), beating the snot out of Taskmaster (in opposition to the scan of yours with him above; his ability to tank damage is pretty extreme...I have a ton of willpower scans if you want), and two fights with Deadpool (both in the same line of scans)--the first one is OK, in the second he totally destroys him.


 
Ok, I have a few problems with these scans. I can't actually see them because my internet is going loopy (it froze for 5 minutes during my last post, pretty scared it would lose everything I wrote). But anyway, firstly, Black Knight is a good swordsman. But he is not a good fighter or martial artist. He has virtually no h2h training which makes him useless against any established fighters. DD/BP are good swordsmen (have scans of them using swords if you want) on top of absolutely top tier martial arts. Beating Black Knight is not the same as beating Black Panther. Stalemating Daredevil when he doesn't have his radar-sense is a not a bad feat, but he is essentially fighting a blind man. Actually blind because he has no way of seeing MK. But consider in our battle Daredevil does have his radar-sense. The environment favors DD, he's bloodlusted and has the M-Blade. It won't be a stalemate this time.
 
The Taskmaster battle is terrible, terrible PIS. Just read it. He beats Taskmaster off panel and Taskmaster gets scared because Moon Knight took two crossbow bolts to the chest. What the hell. Why is that scary? That's called winning. People don't survive crossbow bolts to the heart bro.
 
The Deadpool fight is the same. The fight actually happens off panel. That is weird and proves nothing. And for him to come out without a scratch against someone like Deadpool? He doesn't even have his Khonshu powers there. Deadpool is faster, stronger, infinitely more durable and miles more skilled with a sword. How did Moon Knight even win? It doesn't show you and that makes it worthless.
 

Also, about his invisibility---I've never seen it in action. I read it in his bio. It makes sense with his moon powers, but I can't prove it.


It's in a wiki and he's never used it in a comic? Probably BS. Like I said, I'm an MK fan and I've never seen him turn invisible. It seems like something you would do pretty often if you could.
 

Annnd....one last one, of Cardiac tagging Spidey by hand, certainly no mean feat.


And yet the list of people who have tagged Spider-Man in h2h is surprisingly long.
 
Punisher, Bullseye, Captain America, Kraven, Wolverine, Taskmaster, Sabretooth, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Vulture, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Venom, Shocker, Scorpion, etc  (have scans). Face it tiger, a Spider-Man comic wouldn't be interesting if none of his villains could tag him and Cardiac is a Spider-Man rogue. Tagging him once isn't really a feat to hang your hat on.
#33 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

@Dane said:

Most of those are from the current (and awful) Black Panther series where he has no powers or vibranium armor, gadgets, etc. That isn't the case here. I can have gerald come and confirm if you like but the character I bought is classic BP. They don't apply here. What comic is the Kingpin fight from? I don't recognize it.

Black Panther: The Most Dangerous Man Alive (it was previously called the Man Without Fear). Can't remember the issue numbers.


Ugh, I thought it might be. I've been reading through that but it's super painful because he is totally useless. Also, I don't have depowered Black Panther for this battle so all of those scans are worthless.
#34 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio

The Black Panther version we're using is the classic.

#35 Edited by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:

First, let me say that I really appreciated the last two posts of yours. They felt much more like a debate to me, where you really laid out your own views, and answered my points, in a legitimate way without the snarkiness that has, I feel, saturated a lot of the rest of this. I feel like this was much more worthwhile than most of the previous week.

I do feel like we're probably close to the end here. I'll lay out a few more points, respond to yours, and that's about all for me.

I have been assuming this is current, de-powered Black Panther, using an old Vibranium suit. I see that Gerald has just weighed on on this; I was going to ask otherwise. That does certainly make a huge difference in the fight, his speed and strength and senses are a big factor. This may be a big part of why we have disagreed about how easily he may or may not be beaten.

The issues with the Kingpin fights are 528 and 529, the last two in the series.

In my mind, attacking aimlessly with energy blasts isn't going to draw out my team, who can track you all day. If you believe differently then I am happy to take it to voting and let other people decide if you're right about the tactical abilities of Black Panther, Daredevil and Hawkeye. You aren't, since I've already shown them taking their time to ambush enemies with scans. So people can actually see that you're wrong. But you're persisting with it, so we aren't moving forward. That's when a debate has run it's course.

It's a jungle. What is an 'obvious hiding place'? Ever played hide and go seek in a jungle? Spoiler: It's like 52 player monopoly. It goes for awhile. Your strategy is for guys like Black Widow and Moon Knight to look for Daredevil/Black Panther with their completely human senses. Seems like a winning formula. There is nothing about your tactics that would even vaguely hamper my team from executing their plans.

Of course, they will attack at the time of their best opportunity. But what I'm trying to do is make that opportunity a little bit less optimal for you. I do think that their completely normal senses--I'm not trying in any way to say Elektra's are enhanced--are capable of helping them to a degree. The key is, they're mostly attacking by hand weapons. So they have to be right there to attack. If they are able to jump right on my team from 5 feet away, then that gives your team a huge advantage. But if they attack from, say, 15 feet away? It gives my team just a little bit more time to get ready, and stops the automatic cutting-in-half thing from happening. And yes, I do think that having my team on the alert, and also blasting away all the brush and whatnot will help create that crucial 15' or so distance. So just to be clear, Cardiac is not just firing randomly, but basically clearing all the brush within a 15' or so radius of where they are while walking. It will make for slow going but should give them a respite in the attack.

Again, you seem to think your fighters are in the same tier as mine, but you can't prove they are. Here's why: They aren't. I'm not lowballing you. I honestly don't think Elektra, Black Widow or Moon Knight are in ballpark of Black Panther or Daredevil. They just aren't. I've already shown scans of Daredevil trouncing Black Widow, getting (what would be in this scenario) decisive hits against Elektra and Moon Knight is generally a much worse fighter. Moon Knight's fighting skill isn't even close to top tier. If you want more scans of him losing badly, let me know.

I showed you scans of Black Panther easily dealing with Karnak, Captain America and Wolverine. You don't have a single fighter in their range. No one on your team can beat Black Panther or Daredevil, let alone bloodlusted and carrying superweapons.

Again, I am very much aware, and have said many times, that Black Panther is the best fighter here. DD is obviously top tier. But I would say Elektra is also--and in this case, she has more practice with bladed weapons than Matt. I don't see him winning a sword fight with her--although I agree that he does know how to use a sword. Put as many asterisks as you want against the Elektra/DD scans, she still had the upper hand in each one. Moon Knight and Black Widow, as I've said, are below this level of skill. But together those two would be more than a match for DD. For Black Panther, given his armor as I now understand it, and given that he has his powers, probably not.

I'm not knocking any giant trees over, and I'm not underestimating your characters' intelligence. If you think so, give me a specific example of how that is happening.

How are you blasting apart dense amazon jungle without knocking over giant trees? I think you're insulting the average readers intelligence, and my own. Think about it in practice and let me know if you still think it would help in the slightest.

That's my bad, I didn't finish my sentence. I meant "knocking trees over on my own team."

There is a high level of skill involved, just not on your team. When your skill level is significantly higher than someone else's (as BP/DD are over your whole team) it doesn't matter how many of them there are. That's what the HYDRA goon example illustrates. If you want a better one:

Gorgon can take on Wolverine and Elektra at the same time and win. It's a function of his fighting skill more than anything since his powers are actually very similar to Wolverine's. 4v3 is not a great advantage when your team is significantly outmatched skill-wise.

My team is highly skilled, although not all of them are as skilled as your top one. I think my 4 (with a mix of skill levels) balances out your 3 (perhaps higher skill levels in general). The total aggregate amount of skill is fairly equal, I think. That, plus what I see as my tactical advantages, and the fact that 4 people can gang up and have a bit more freedom of movement since they're not necessarily pinned down by someone, is what I see giving me the win.

I'm not totally sure what you're going for with the Gorgon example. Obviously someone with a high enough skill level can solo large teams if his total skill and power is above the teams'. But I don't think we're anywhere near that asymmetrical balance of skill.

Those scans are worthless. One is Klaw (who is living sound and can project vastly more raw sound than a grenade), the other is where Daredevil is clearly trying to interrogate someone. There is no interrogation here. He's bloodlusted and has a Muramasa. He's not asking for information on a crime lord. He's decapitating you.

Klaw is obviously more powerful than a grenade, but the whole point of sonic grenades is that they are powerful enough to temporarily incapacitate people. Anything that can incapacitate a normal person is obviously going to do far, far worse to Daredevil. In the second situation, what he's doing at the time is irrelevant, the point is the sound stopped him in his tracks. And being bloodlusted, as we've already discussed, in this tournament basically just means "no morals," it doesn't give them any extra degree of motivation or energy, etc. So his no-morals state won't affect the degree to which he can ignore the sonics. If we were talking real bloodlust, like a berzerker Wolverine, then maybe it would help him to a degree. But in that case, you'd hardly be sitting around waiting for an optimal ambush.

How does Elektra even get the jump on Hawkeye? This is why you buy trackers. So you can track people. Elektra doesn't have enhanced senses, stop pretending she does. It's annoying and flagrant. Hawkeye dodged attacks similar to your best (energy blasts) - it's nice that you've seen him dodge better but that's all he needs to do to evade everything you can throw at him and school you from range. Even if everything worked as you say, which it never could because you don't have the means to accomplish it. Hawkeye can hit himself with a force field arrow or shrink himself down to atomic size with a Pym Particle Arrow and escape. Elektra can't beat him. She doesn't have the tools required.

Where is the evidence that Black Widow even gets time to use a sonic grenade? And at the end of the day, it's just a grenade. It's not a sonic bomb or a thermal nuclear sonic warhead. It has a blast radius whether you accept it or not and that blast radius is not greater than a frag grenade. Sound disappates, especially in a thick jungle. And that is assuming she has the time to get it off. Why would she? As seen in the scans, Matt was able to go from standing right in front of her to choking her out. That's within her vision, she still wasn't fast enough to react. When she is taken unawares? Game over.

Well, now that I know I'm dealing with a Black Panther with enhanced senses, then she probably can't hide outside the group like I was planning, which does screw my strategy a bit. But, she is darn fast, I would say faster than anyone here except classic Panther, so she can certainly throw her sai at him pretty quickly. He can dodge like a normal superhero, but she's especially accurate, and he's not expecting her. He's certainly the slowest and least-capable of dodging in either team. A sai to the head is all it takes. But she would have to wait until he makes himself known during the attack, so it is no longer a "get the jump on" situation.

Of course the sonic grenade has a blast radius. How long exactly does it take to throw it? She's holding it, ready, because we know you're eventually going to try to ambush us, because it's the obvious tactic, and we have the Reed Richards add-on, and so we know that it's very useful to take advantage of DD's weakness to sonics. So she'll be able to throw it at a moment's notice. Even if you attacked from just a few feet away, she could get it off. We might even be in the blast radius if he was that close, but it would be worth it because we'd be ready for it, and be slightly less thrown-off, and we would know we'd pretty much automatically take down one of your guys. And once one guy is down, we have a much bigger chance in this fight.

Honestly, I think that Matt/Black Widow fight was extreme PIS. While I don't have good fighting scans for her myself, it seems totally beyond the pale for how bad she does. If you're going to call PIS on some of the Moon Knight fights, I'm calling it here.

Strategy

-Black Panther jumps Elektra, he will win. She can't detect him, his suit is totally soundless, etc. He is faster and more skilled. She can't avoid him or survive his Ebony Blade. He will win instantly.

-Hawkeye fires an Adamantium Arrow through the middle of Cardiac's Staff and it discharges in his hands and blasts him off his feet. Black Panther throws a flurry of energy daggers at Black Widow/Moon Knight. (I can prove with scans the staff can be broken and will discharge it's energy blasts when that happens if you like)

-Daredevil ambushes the now distracted Black Widow and Moon Knight, killing them in that order with two slashes of his Muramasa Blade.

-Black Panther finishes off Cardiac (who can't hurt him) with his Ebony Blade.

There is nothing in your strategy so far that can stop them from doing this. Nothing short of a titantic dose of PIS will have my characters execute a lesser tactic with lesser efficiency. You do not have the fighting skills, speed, reflexes or tracking ability to avoid this.

Even in the dizziest of daydreams where you get an even melee fight (which you apparently crave) you will lose soundly. No one on your team can take down Black Panther. Your whole team put together cannot beat Black Panther. When you add in Daredevil with the Muramasa and Hawkeye with trick arrows it becomes an absolute stomp any way you look at it. Everyone on my team can dodge your best attacks. Everyone on my team can either win or hold their own against anyone on your team. You have no way of isolating anyone on my team for a 4v1 (no way of tracking or detecting) and you have no way of avoiding or surviving the attacks of A) Energy Daggers to the face, B) Ebony Blade, C) Muramasa, D) Adamantium Arrows to vital locations, E) Glue Arrows to the feet followed by Explosive Arrows to the face. Pick your poison. Whatever way you cut it, your team goes down like a cup of concrete.

In a classic BP vs Elektra fight, with his armor, he would win. I'm not going to argue with that. His strength and speed give him too much of an advantage. But she has a Muramasa blade, which could affect his armor, so she isn't going down immediately. Since she is no longer going to be able to hide out of the group, since the Panther's senses would identify her, she will be with the rest of the group, so she is attackable now. In any case, he'll be occupied with her for a while, so he's not throwing his energy daggers around.

Hawkeye isn't going to know that Cardiac's staff would blow up, I don't think that's his first target.

Again, I think my team has a bit more of a time advantage here than you're giving them, just based on minimal distance. I don't think Matt is going to hit them both immediately with one stroke each, and as long as that doesn't happen, then Black Widow uses her sonic grenade and then her widow's bite, which would finish him off.

I've been revising my plan for Cardiac. Depending on what happens exactly with Hawkeye and DD, he may be needed to knock them out with his blasts. It's possible Hawkeye could dodge them a bit, of course, but not for long. More importantly, since he won't be able to affect BP with his blasts (and will know that due to the Reed Richards), he will rip up a nearby (hefty) tree and start trying to pin BP down underneath it. BP is fast as hell of course, but if he's occupied with Elektra, then Cardiac has a decent chance of this. A multi-ton tree would keep Panther pinned down.

I certainly disagree that my whole team cannot take down Black Panther. Everyone on your team cannot dodge my best attacks. We're all going to be too close for much dodging for any ranged weapons on anybody's part, and Cardiac and Black Widow can shoot their blasts pretty continuously. Hawkeye's arrows are a problem--the first one or two are key because they would come before I could stop him--but I do think he will be taken out prety quickly, so I don't think there will be time for much past the first couple.

Neither Daredevil nor Wolverine identify as a ninja. You can't be the best of something you aren't. Having training in ninjitsu does not make you a ninja. A ninja is a mercenary who kills or assassinates people by using ninjitsu techniques. The Hand's services were always available to the highest bidder. As was Elektra's. Wolverine and Daredevil are not mercenaries. Ogun would shitstomp Elektra. He was a martial arts master and sorcerer, the fact that he also mastered ninjitsu doesn't make him just a ninja. He didn't sell his services.

You're really splitting hairs with this "who really is a ninja" thing, that's got nothing to do with what Wolverine was talking about. Ogun is of course a total badass.

Then perhaps you should prove that Spider-Man can dodge Bullseye. I can remember their fights. I don't ever remember Spider-Man outright avoiding a projectile from Lester.

Daredevil has dodged things that Spider-Man can't. That makes him better at dodging. Whether you agree or not is not relevant. Radar-sense > Spider-sense when it comes to dodging projectiles, based on evidence.

I don't have time to find any Spidey/Bullseye fights, and he may or may not have dodged them, but it would be total PIS for Spidey to be unable to dodge them to at least the degree that Matt does.

Here's one basic scan for Spidey's dodging, against Hobgoblin's computer-randomized electric blast. I don't see DD doing this.

Hobgoblin using random barrage on Spidey

I can't imagine what comics you've read that give you the idea that numbers are more important than skill. They aren't and it's 4v3. You have only a slight numeric advantage and a gaping skill differential. Cap says it wouldn't work in a real fight, Black Panther says really? (implying he thinks it would). Either way, Black Panther outfought Captain America. I can give you more examples of Black Panther dominating better fighters than you have if you like.

And while he's good, it's not like he's untouchable. Here are various scans of him recently. An everyday Hand ninja cutting him pretty good in the side. The Kingpin knocking him around. (I will point out that after both these Kingpin fights, BP says he was using the fight to distract Kingpin. But, if all he wanted to do was distract him, why not just beat Kingpin up? He clearly wasn't able to fully take Kingpin out, and takes some pretty serious hits. And this is in his own series.) BP was hit by darts by Kraven and had to be saved from falling to death by Storm. BP getting kicked by Kraven, then snagged by a total neophyte's stone-control attack, and falling off the building again. Now of course in all this he won in the end. But my point is, he's able to be hit, and when those people have abilities like my team, one hit means something. I'm not saying I"m going to one-shot him or anything, but he's not going to one-shot anyone else either, especially if they attack from a distance.

Most of those are from the current (and awful) Black Panther series where he has no powers or vibranium armor, gadgets, etc. That isn't the case here. I can have gerald come and confirm if you like but the character I bought is classic BP. They don't apply here.

If you're going to argue with my DD vs Elektra fight, saying it's no good because he was sick, I'm going to argue with your BP vs Cap fight because Cap was hampered also. But in any case I have always agreed that BP is the best fighter here. It's true that those fights are all post-powers, which is what I had been assuming. But it's not like he has never been hit, no matter what the situation. So my characters do have a chance to tag him. With his armor, the only people in this fight to be able to do that would be ones with the Muramasa blades, so Elektra or (if he gets DD's) then Moon Knight. Cardiac does have a chance with the tree; he's also superhumanly fast, so while a tree is obviously going to slow him down, he could do it if BP is otherwise occupied.

I'm not trying to say tagging Spidey is the pinnacle of feats. But it is still worthwhile.

I have to go for now. I'll answer the other post in a few hours. Again, I want to say that I appreciate the change in tone here, I feel like this is a much-improved way to end the debate.

#36 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:

Taking a bullet it's honestly a good thing. And even if she can survive a bullet, there are so many things she won't survive even one hit of that my team is bringing to the table that is doesn't matter. I don't understand your logic. You think she is a good fighter but she has no good showings against a reputable fighter? You think she's good because people team up with her? Quick note about Nick Fury, Daredevil and Bucky? They all slept with Black Widow. That's why they team up with her. Dat ass. They just want to keep her close. I mean Batman teams up with Robin. It doesn't make Damien Wayne a high tier fighter. It's his son, he wants him around. I'm not interested in her 'rep'. Black Canary has a 'rep' as a high tier fighter. It doesn't make her one. She has very few actual fighting skill feats and Black Widow has even less.

I'm not saying she doesn't have any feats, I'm saying I don't have them. I think the sex motive is a little cheap there. Obviously they all chose to work with her because she's one of the top SHIELD agents ever. She was in charge of SHIELD's combat training (no jokes about how bad they are! :) ). She is an expert martial artist and sharpshooter. And, she's peak human through the super soldier serum, or whatever other explanation they've got for it these days, so she's unusually fast and strong--because of that, she should be faster than Matt, with PIS off. I think that's all pretty well accepted. But if it's "scans or it didn't happen," then that's all I got.

It seems impressive and it's certainly good to read. But those are all stationary targets against nameless goons. It's nothing like tagging a legitimate fighter. Everyone on my team has accuracy on that level or greater. And as we saw with Taskmaster, a skilled fighter can catch Moon Knight's projectiles and throw them back. I'm having trouble uploading scans right now but I will post some up as soon as I can to back up accuracy feats for my team.

Well, they are mostly against normal guys, but they're not all stationary. I wouldn't argue against your team having equal accuracy, but I think that that speaks highly of his accuracy. The point here is he can hit something pretty specific if he wants to.

Daredevil and indeed most street levelers can catch arrows or dodge close range bullets. I knew Moon Knight was capable of these things. Moon Knight is actually one of my favorites, but he isn't in the same league of fighting skill as Daredevil or Black Panther. He just has no way to beat them, especially when they're bloodlusted and has superweapon swords.

I don't think MOST street levelers can catch arrows. I can certainly see Daredevil doing it. But the point being, if Hawkeye shoots at him, he has a decent chance of catching it. Hawkeye's arrows aren't any harder to catch than anyone else's. Again, I'm not saying he's in BP or DD's league. My strategy for Moon Knight is to use him in combination with someone else, in which case he can do quite well. Again the bloodlusted thing really has no major effect, other than letting your team kill, it's not an extra motivator. It does kind of suck for him that his armor won't help, I had originally hoped it would be better protection, having thought the blades' sharpness stopped at adamantium alloys. Oh well.

Incidentally, if you are a Moon Knight fan, you may want to check out the respect thread where I got these scans, it's very well organized and has a ton of stuff.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t476646.html

Ok, I have a few problems with these scans. I can't actually see them because my internet is going loopy (it froze for 5 minutes during my last post, pretty scared it would lose everything I wrote). But anyway, firstly, Black Knight is a good swordsman. But he is not a good fighter or martial artist. He has virtually no h2h training which makes him useless against any established fighters. DD/BP are good swordsmen (have scans of them using swords if you want) on top of absolutely top tier martial arts. Beating Black Knight is not the same as beating Black Panther. Stalemating Daredevil when he doesn't have his radar-sense is a not a bad feat, but he is essentially fighting a blind man. Actually blind because he has no way of seeing MK. But consider in our battle Daredevil does have his radar-sense. The environment favors DD, he's bloodlusted and has the M-Blade. It won't be a stalemate this time.

The Taskmaster battle is terrible, terrible PIS. Just read it. He beats Taskmaster off panel and Taskmaster gets scared because Moon Knight took two crossbow bolts to the chest. What the hell. Why is that scary? That's called winning. People don't survive crossbow bolts to the heart bro.

The Deadpool fight is the same. The fight actually happens off panel. That is weird and proves nothing. And for him to come out without a scratch against someone like Deadpool? He doesn't even have his Khonshu powers there. Deadpool is faster, stronger, infinitely more durable and miles more skilled with a sword. How did Moon Knight even win? It doesn't show you and that makes it worthless.

I'd agree that beating Black Knight is not the same as beating Black Panther. But he is a top-tier swordsman and pretty good strategist, and beating him is still a decent feat, especially since he had the ebony blade. Stalemating DD is, as you say, not bad, although he usually does pretty well even with just his senses. This was actually a really bad showing for DD in a way--losing (most of) his radar just because of the noise of an arcade is pretty ridiculous, considering how noisy any normal battle is. But yes, in our battle DD does have radar, and with the muramasa blade, I wouldn't say MK wins here, one-on-one. Taskmaster--hay, it happened in a canon book, he scared the crap out of him once he realized he's just got more grit. Do you know whether the one you posted took place before or after this? I am assuming before. It is weird that we don't see the Deadpool fight, but again a win is a win. You can't argue that he has no wins against high-level opponents and then when I show some, you say they don't count because he's not capable of beating high-level opponents, that's just circular logic. He is capable, he did it right there. This to me is just classic Moon Knight's skill rearing its head after he was misused by writers for a long time.

In terms of Moon Knight's ability to take a hit/willpower, here are some other scans in that realm. They may or may not be directly related to our fight, but add some support to his ability to take a couple arrows:

Moon Knight gets his vertebrae ripped out without making a fuss, he fights his way through some storm-level winds created by a mutant, and he gets through a sonic attack that the Thing couldn't get past. Also, I meant to post this earlier--the last one shows him using his armor to become immune to sonic attacks, in case Hawkeye happens to use a sonic arrow, although I assume you wouldn't because of Daredevil's proximity.

It's in a wiki and he's never used it in a comic? Probably BS. Like I said, I'm an MK fan and I've never seen him turn invisible. It seems like something you would do pretty often if you could.

I don't know if he's never used it, but I haven't seen it. It may be an older power.

SO, I've been thinking about the fact that this is a powered-up Black Panther. It certainly skews my strategy, not just because he's faster and stronger than I had been planning against, but also because his senses mess up my Elektra-on-the-outskirts strategy, which certainly was going to be a big part of my plan to finish off Hawkeye and DD from behind.

I think my team would still do fairly well, as described in the last post, but it would be tough for sure. Hawkeye's arrows would whittle down at least one or two of my guys before I stopped him, which would make it harder when they eventually ganged up on Black Panther.

Anyway, here's an alternate strategy. Maybe we can take up the last day discussing it.

My team will take to the trees, meaning that they'll travel along the tree tops. My team is all pretty agile and will have no serious difficulty jumping from one tree to the next, especially in a densely-packed place like a jungle (Moon Knight, Elektra, and Black Widow will have no trouble with this, and Cardiac, while less of a trained acrobat, has superhuman speed/agility/strength, and will be able to get along just fine). This has a few advantages.

One, while Black Panther and Daredevil will certainly be totally at home in the tree tops, Hawkeye will be less so; he's the least agile one here. It will also be harder for him to get any decent shots in the dense canopy of a jungle.

Two, and this is the main thing, since each of my team members will be in a different tree at all times, your guys won't be able to attack more than one at a time. So no "DD kills both at once" kind of stuff. And once one of your team shows up in a tree, then a second member of my team can show up to aid them directly or attack from a medium distance (since all my team has distance attacks).

Now, you could do something like use the swords to cut the trees down, but they can jump to new trees fairly easily, so I don't think that's a big issue. You'll have to attack from up in the trees, and that will mean that you will have a harder time taking my team completely by surprise from super-close range. They'll still ambush my team, don't get me wrong, but not easily enough for them to make it a one-shot situation. We'll be able to tell you're coming from at least a reasonable distance and have that 15' or so distance we need to react. After your team attacks, then it generally goes down as described before, but with it being harder for Hawkeye to provide support than before, and with no two-at-once attacks from your side.

I think I already know what you're going to say about this, and I know it's a little out of the box, but I'm thinking on my feet here!

#37 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie:

First, let me say that I really appreciated the last two posts of yours. They felt much more like a debate to me, where you really laid out your own views, and answered my points, in a legitimate way without the snarkiness that has, I feel, saturated a lot of the rest of this. I feel like this was much more worthwhile than most of the previous week.

I do feel like we're probably close to the end here. I'll lay out a few more points, respond to yours, and that's about all for me.

I have been assuming this is current, de-powered Black Panther, using an old Vibranium suit. I see that Gerald has just weighed on on this; I was going to ask otherwise. That does certainly make a huge difference in the fight, his speed and strength and senses are a big factor. This may be a big part of why we have disagreed about how easily he may or may not be beaten.

The issues with the Kingpin fights are 528 and 529, the last two in the series.


 
All good. As I've said I'm not trying to insult you personally. I just think I have a better line-up of fighters with all the cards up my sleeve. It's not anything against you personally.
 
I would never pay 8 points for current Black Panther. He has no powers, none of the gear and only a fraction of his fighting skill on show right now. All of your scans of BP getting trounced are from the current volume, which is horrible because he otherwise had a sterling record against melee fighters.
 

Of course, they will attack at the time of their best opportunity. But what I'm trying to do is make that opportunity a little bit less optimal for you. I do think that their completely normal senses--I'm not trying in any way to say Elektra's are enhanced--are capable of helping them to a degree. The key is, they're mostly attacking by hand weapons. So they have to be right there to attack. If they are able to jump right on my team from 5 feet away, then that gives your team a huge advantage. But if they attack from, say, 15 feet away? It gives my team just a little bit more time to get ready, and stops the automatic cutting-in-half thing from happening. And yes, I do think that having my team on the alert, and also blasting away all the brush and whatnot will help create that crucial 15' or so distance. So just to be clear, Cardiac is not just firing randomly, but basically clearing all the brush within a 15' or so radius of where they are while walking. It will make for slow going but should give them a respite in the attack.

I think it's wishful thinking. No one on my team is a moron and they're all highly skilled fighters and trackers. Guys like Black Panther and Daredevil don't give you chances to see them coming when they're serious about killing you. I can get some more scans of Clint Barton doing some infiltration work as Ronin though if that helps. I don't think my team will lunge at you from 15 feet. I think they're camouflage themselves so that when they attack, they're right next to you and you don't know it. That's what I meant by ambush.
 
Again, I don't fully understand what you hope to accomplish being having Cardiac fire his blasts at 'the brush'. It's a jungle, there is nothing but brush and trees. You would have to level the Amazon for your plan to work in your favor.
 

Again, I am very much aware, and have said many times, that Black Panther is the best fighter here. DD is obviously top tier. But I would say Elektra is also--and in this case, she has more practice with bladed weapons than Matt. I don't see him winning a sword fight with her--although I agree that he does know how to use a sword. Put as many asterisks as you want against the Elektra/DD scans, she still had the upper hand in each one. Moon Knight and Black Widow, as I've said, are below this level of skill. But together those two would be more than a match for DD. For Black Panther, given his armor as I now understand it, and given that he has his powers, probably not.


Those aren't asterisks. They're conditions that you don't have here. The scans speak for themselves, DD was barely standing in 2/4 fights. The others were either even or in Matt's favor. They're out of context compared to the actual battle we're discussing. 
Whether you accept it or not, Daredevil is faster than Elektra in every way that matters. In a sword fight with M-Blades? That counts. 
 
Catches Bullseye's card and prevents Elektra's 38th death to Lester.

 And Matt has better swordsmanship feats than Elektra anyway.
 





 
Moon Knight and Black Widow together are just as useless as they are apart. Why don't you understand that when someone is outclassed, teaming them up with another person who is outclassed doesn't make a difference.
 

That's my bad, I didn't finish my sentence. I meant "knocking trees over on my own team."


Oh, that makes a lot more sense. But I was pointing out if you go around blasting apart the jungle, stuff might fall on you or force you out of cover because you have to dodge a gigantic tree.
 


My team is highly skilled, although not all of them are as skilled as your top one. I think my 4 (with a mix of skill levels) balances out your 3 (perhaps higher skill levels in general). The total aggregate amount of skill is fairly equal, I think. That, plus what I see as my tactical advantages, and the fact that 4 people can gang up and have a bit more freedom of movement since they're not necessarily pinned down by someone, is what I see giving me the win.

I'm not totally sure what you're going for with the Gorgon example. Obviously someone with a high enough skill level can solo large teams if his total skill and power is above the teams'. But I don't think we're anywhere near that asymmetrical balance of skill.

 
Honestly, you seem to be putting Elektra, Moon Knight, Black Widow at Daredevil's skill level. They aren't. Elektra is the only one that is close. To prevent some lowballing let's look at Daredevil's fights.
 
 
Daredevil vs Iron Fist (dressed as DD, unknown to him) - Stalemate.
 

 
The thing about this fight is, no one on your team would stand in the same 10ft of Danny Rand for longer than a second without being crumbled into a pile on the floor. Daredevil is good enough to hang with Iron Fist, who has massive physical advantages due to his Chi powers.
 
Daredevil vs Iron Fist 2 - Stalemate.
 


 
Daredevil vs Black Panther

Daredevil vs Captain America

Daredevil vs Spider-Man
Daredevil vs Spider-Man 2
 
Now Matt either beats or stalemates all of these guys. Yet they're all fighters that no one on your team would come close to beating. You can see it for yourself and I'd like you to understand and appreciate that there are two out of three characters on my team that no one on yours can beat. They will lose every engagement. Lowballing Daredevil against guys like Moon Knight and co is poor form.
 

Klaw is obviously more powerful than a grenade, but the whole point of sonic grenades is that they are powerful enough to temporarily incapacitate people. Anything that can incapacitate a normal person is obviously going to do far, far worse to Daredevil. In the second situation, what he's doing at the time is irrelevant, the point is the sound stopped him in his tracks. And being bloodlusted, as we've already discussed, in this tournament basically just means "no morals," it doesn't give them any extra degree of motivation or energy, etc. So his no-morals state won't affect the degree to which he can ignore the sonics. If we were talking real bloodlust, like a berzerker Wolverine, then maybe it would help him to a degree. But in that case, you'd hardly be sitting around waiting for an optimal ambush.


 
In a straight fight, Daredevil has actually beaten Klaw. And again, regular street levelers can dodge grenades. I don't need extra motivation to win here. When he's actually prepared for a fight, he can dodge sonic weaponry. When he gets jumped by a crackhead with a sonic device, not so much. None of your strategies so far involve you having the drop on me, and you won't. So it's an invalid argument.
 
Daredevil vs Klaw

 
Street levelers dodge grenades. It's just an accepted fact. Now I don't have any instances of Daredevil dodging grenades specifically. But I do have instances of less agile heroes dodging them.
 
Tim Drake dodges 3 flashbangs at once.
Green Arrow dodges 5 frag grenades at once.
I think if they can do it, DD has a pretty damn good chance of avoiding any explosives you might have. But I'll get to DD's own agility later.
 

Well, now that I know I'm dealing with a Black Panther with enhanced senses, then she probably can't hide outside the group like I was planning, which does screw my strategy a bit. But, she is darn fast, I would say faster than anyone here except classic Panther, so she can certainly throw her sai at him pretty quickly. He can dodge like a normal superhero, but she's especially accurate, and he's not expecting her. He's certainly the slowest and least-capable of dodging in either team. A sai to the head is all it takes. But she would have to wait until he makes himself known during the attack, so it is no longer a "get the jump on" situation.


This is what is weird. What accuracy feats does Elektra have over anyone else? Is she more accurate than Bullseye? I've already shown Elektra is slower than Daredevil. Unless you mean Hawkeye, in which case I've already shown him dodging lasers, which are much faster than anyone can throw a sai. 
 
What makes you say no one is expecting Elektra right after you acknowledge that Black Panther can track her. They've met before. He knows her scent. My team will know every member of your team from the start because of their senses. They know where they are at all times. Why do you think she is getting the jump on anyone? And since you're saying Hawkeye is the slowest, where are your dodging feat scans? All I've seen is Moon Knight doing some acrobatics. Since the rest of your team are so obscenely fast, please prove it.
 

Of course the sonic grenade has a blast radius. How long exactly does it take to throw it? She's holding it, ready, because we know you're eventually going to try to ambush us, because it's the obvious tactic, and we have the Reed Richards add-on, and so we know that it's very useful to take advantage of DD's weakness to sonics. So she'll be able to throw it at a moment's notice. Even if you attacked from just a few feet away, she could get it off. We might even be in the blast radius if he was that close, but it would be worth it because we'd be ready for it, and be slightly less thrown-off, and we would know we'd pretty much automatically take down one of your guys. And once one guy is down, we have a much bigger chance in this fight.


What's faster, priming a grenade and throwing it or performing a horizontal cut with a Katana? 'cause I have already proved that Daredevil can close a gap on Black Widow before she can react. So it's your words vs my actual scans with proof of what I'm saying.
 

Honestly, I think that Matt/Black Widow fight was extreme PIS. While I don't have good fighting scans for her myself, it seems totally beyond the pale for how bad she does. If you're going to call PIS on some of the Moon Knight fights, I'm calling it here.


I didn't call PIS. It wasn't plot induced stupidity, it was regular stupidity. The fights happened off panel. There is no way of showing that Moon Knight had superior skills or abilities. You don't even see the fight. That isn't solid evidence sir.
 
But here is the difference. You can't show me another fight of Moon Knight vs Taskmaster where Taskmaster doesn't demolish MK. And they have fought more than once.

I can show you another Daredevil vs Black Widow fight. She even uses her Widow's Bite on him. He is barely fazed and jumps over her next blast. She just isn't his match.

In a classic BP vs Elektra fight, with his armor, he would win. I'm not going to argue with that. His strength and speed give him too much of an advantage. But she has a Muramasa blade, which could affect his armor, so she isn't going down immediately. Since she is no longer going to be able to hide out of the group, since the Panther's senses would identify her, she will be with the rest of the group, so she is attackable now. In any case, he'll be occupied with her for a while, so he's not throwing his energy daggers around.


Show me some scans that put her fighting skill in the 'last longer than one second' ballpark. It doesn't even matter because you don't have another fighter who can stand up to Daredevil and Hawkeye.
 

Hawkeye isn't going to know that Cardiac's staff would blow up, I don't think that's his first target.


Why not? If I saw someone using a staff to produce energy blasts and I had something that could break it (Adamantium being the hardest, most dense metal in the universe) I think I would try to disable their weapons. Though if you think he would go for another target like Cardiac's eyeballs or as he did with Daken, the inside of his mouth then I don't think Cardiac would fare any better. I already posted it, but let's check out that great Clint Barton faceroll moment again.
 



So... what is stopping the glorious Clinton Barton from doing that when Elektra (who he knows is coming) or when Cardiac starts attacking shrubberies? Are Cardiac's eyeballs armored?

 

Again, I think my team has a bit more of a time advantage here than you're giving them, just based on minimal distance. I don't think Matt is going to hit them both immediately with one stroke each, and as long as that doesn't happen, then Black Widow uses her sonic grenade and then her widow's bite, which would finish him off.


Objectively? I don't. Having reread so many Daredevil comics for this debate and seen Black Widow's widow's bite in action again. I don't think it's going to phase him even slightly. I don't think BW or MK are in the same league as Daredevil and by the time we're done there will be enough Daredevil scans in this thread to prove that point.
 

I've been revising my plan for Cardiac. Depending on what happens exactly with Hawkeye and DD, he may be needed to knock them out with his blasts. It's possible Hawkeye could dodge them a bit, of course, but not for long. More importantly, since he won't be able to affect BP with his blasts (and will know that due to the Reed Richards), he will rip up a nearby (hefty) tree and start trying to pin BP down underneath it. BP is fast as hell of course, but if he's occupied with Elektra, then Cardiac has a decent chance of this. A multi-ton tree would keep Panther pinned down.


He couldn't even if he wanted to. I've shown them both dodging energy blasts. He's firing energy blasts. I have hard evidence that your tactic will not work. Why do you think a tree won't affect your team but it will affect mine? I've already shown Black Panther and Daredevil are faster than anyone on your team. If you want to chuck wood at people then you're going to be the first one going down to swinging lumber (trees fall in the direction they are felled, physics 101.)
 

I certainly disagree that my whole team cannot take down Black Panther. Everyone on your team cannot dodge my best attacks. We're all going to be too close for much dodging for any ranged weapons on anybody's part, and Cardiac and Black Widow can shoot their blasts pretty continuously. Hawkeye's arrows are a problem--the first one or two are key because they would come before I could stop him--but I do think he will be taken out prety quickly, so I don't think there will be time for much past the first couple.


Too close for dodging? What? 
 
Look how close Daredevil is to Punisher when he dodges gunfire. Note also that bullets travel many, many times faster than thrown objects and that Punisher is a better marksman than everyone on your team combined.
 

You have no way of taking out Hawkeye. As I said already, even if you close range on him, he's either going to beat the guy attacking him or use a force-field/pym particle arrow to escape.
 

You're really splitting hairs with this "who really is a ninja" thing, that's got nothing to do with what Wolverine was talking about. Ogun is of course a total badass.


I'm not splitting hairs. I'm defining what a ninja is. Your evidence here is a hyperbole by Wolverine saying that Elektra is the greatest ninja. That is flimsy at best. He never says he nor Daredevil are ninjas themselves, which they aren't. It doesn't prove that Elektra is better than anyone.
 


I don't have time to find any Spidey/Bullseye fights, and he may or may not have dodged them, but it would be total PIS for Spidey to be unable to dodge them to at least the degree that Matt does.

Here's one basic scan for Spidey's dodging, against Hobgoblin's computer-randomized electric blast. I don't see DD doing this.

 
In your opinion, Spider-Man can dodge Bullseye. I've seen them fight 2-3 times and I've never seen it. So what you think and what is actually true are not necessarily the same thing. If you can prove your point with something other than your opinion, please do.
 
Since you've challenged Daredevil's ability to dodge things (Hobgoblin? lol), I will step up for Murdock. He dodges like a boss and you will respect him as such good sir.
  
Here is DD deftly avoiding a character that generally tags Spider-Man easily: Doc Ock.





 
 

Daredevil agility/dodging feats.











 

If you're going to argue with my DD vs Elektra fight, saying it's no good because he was sick, I'm going to argue with your BP vs Cap fight because Cap was hampered also. But in any case I have always agreed that BP is the best fighter here. It's true that those fights are all post-powers, which is what I had been assuming. But it's not like he has never been hit, no matter what the situation. So my characters do have a chance to tag him. With his armor, the only people in this fight to be able to do that would be ones with the Muramasa blades, so Elektra or (if he gets DD's) then Moon Knight. Cardiac does have a chance with the tree; he's also superhumanly fast, so while a tree is obviously going to slow him down, he could do it if BP is otherwise occupied.

I admitted that Cap was injured before the fight. But Black Panther was still only sparring him. He wasn't bloodlusted or trying to kill Steve. Moon Knight couldn't disarm Daredevil in his dreams and he'd get dissected trying. Black Panther has superhuman senses, dropping a tree on him isn't going to work. But since you further doubt BP's fighting prowess I shall post yet more fights, sir.
 
Black Panther vs Wolverine
Black Panther vs Captain America
Note that both Wolverine and Cap specifically mention how T'Challa's speed and agility. 
 
Black Panther vs Kraven the Hunter

 
I shall have to address your other post tomorrow, as it is quite late.
#38 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:

I'm going to post the last new content/scans I plan to post, and reply to your stuff above. I assume you'll get a chance to reply to this and/or my other previous post. I may or may not get a chance to reply to you before voting starts (assuming it starts the same time as last week, which would be Monday evening for my time zone). Which is fine.

The main things I wanted to show were a handful of new scans.

For Black Widow, this is a fight with Cap from the Streets of Poison storyline. Cap is, as you know, on the drug Ice, which is basically putting him in a no-morals, violent state. Before we get to Black Widow, he meets Daredevil, and beats the holy hell out of him. DD is so trashed that when he's lying on the ground, barely able to move, Crossbones comes up and is able to lift his mask and see who he is, and Matt can't do anything about it. Soon after (the issue right after he beats Matt, the same issue where Crossbones lifts Matt's mask), Black Widow and Diamondback fight Cap. Diamondback is hardly a factor in the fight, but I'll get to her part later. Black Widow doesn't do super-well in the H2H part (about as well as Matt), as should be expected, but is eventually able to take him down directly with one hit of her widow's blast. Basically, it shows that she had what it took to, number one, survive the physical part of the combat with Cap, while DD couldn't. Number two, it shows that she had what it took to finish the fight in her favor, which Matt couldn't. It also shows that her widow's bite is powerful enough to take down someone like Cap in one shot (Cap was in no way physically impaired by the Ice, so that's not a factor). And if she can take down Cap, she can take down DD. Regarding the scan you showed where her bite didn't slow him down, either that's just PIS or she's had it amped up since.

Scans of the end of Matt's beat-down, and the different results with Natasha:

Since we have a variety of "how well can someone fight against Cap" scans in this thread, this is yet another good one to use to measure them all up against each other. BW beat Cap, who beat DD. Now I know DD and Cap have gone up against each other multiple times, including your scans and the recent fight in the current volume (stalemate), so I'm not saying Cap would always beat DD. But that's part of the point of all these mutliple fights over time--sometimes they do better, sometimes worse. Natasha may crumble under DD in a particular fight, but beat Cap in another. BP stalemates Wolverine, Elektra stalemates Wolverine...etc. (Only that first Wolverine scan was apparently non-canon, not the longer fight.) Cardiac stalemates Spidey, who has ever beaten DD and has ever lost to DD. Etc. No one here is so amazing they can't be touched by any of the others.

This is also a good spot to talk about teaming up on someone. You're taking the position that two lower-skill people, together, can't really team up against a superior opponent. In some cases this is true, such as this fight right here. Diamondback added nothing to the fight with Cap. (I know I didn't show the whole fight, I'm pressed for time.) It was all Widow. This is because Diamondback is so far below either of them that she just couldn't really add any benefit. But, if you've got two people who are both fairly close to their opponent in skill, the situation is quite different. While the higher-level guy can beat either of the others, it would take him some time to do so. And with two at once, his attention is split, they can come at him from multiple angles, using different kinds of attacks (like H2H vs shooting) and so on. So the team can win quite easily, if they act in a coordinated manner as a team. Being able to defeat either of them individually is not the same as being able to beat them both simultaneously. I don't think that's too radical a concept. The key is how big the skill level difference is. I'm arguing that in our battle, it's close enough for it to work in my favor. (And I know you think the opposite. Voters will have to choose.)

For Elektra, here are a few more scans.

First is some sword skill stuff--She cuts a guy's arms and legs off, but in such a way that his body is still perched together. So when Punisher comes in, he touches the guy without realizing what happened and his limbs fall off. This is some crazy skill. DD doesn't do anything like this.

Then for speed--she is talking to Punisher, then grabs his gun. He sees it in her hands before he even realizes it's gone. That's some crazy speed.

Then strength/ability/skill: she manages to jam her sai into Red She Hulk's spine. So not only is she able to penetrate her highly-durable skin, but is able to do so in a very specific spot to temporarily disable her at the same time--which is one thing to do to the Owl, but another thing to do to Red She Hulk, considering the extra difficulty of dealing with her durability.

Then sword skill again: She cuts Nina's headband in half without cutting her at all, and all done during a flying flip (I'm not saying the flip is hard, but doing the cut during a flip is harder than on the ground). Very accurate, moreso than the Owl thing.

For Moon Knight, here's another battle with Infinity War doppelgangers. In this, and the previous one, it's damn impressive how he's getting through them all. We've got people with super speed and agility, energy attack, etc. going against him, all at once. He can certainly manage to avoid getting cut in the first couple seconds of a fight with any of the people on your team.

Also a fight with grey Hulk--not actually winning, of course, but not bad for a normal human, getting into his hide and some nice creativity in going for the ears.

And that's it for the new stuff.

On to your post:

I can get some more scans of Clint Barton doing some infiltration work as Ronin though if that helps.

I think that would be better than what you've shown of him so far.

I don't think my team will lunge at you from 15 feet. I think they're camouflage themselves so that when they attack, they're right next to you and you don't know it. That's what I meant by ambush. Again, I don't fully understand what you hope to accomplish being having Cardiac fire his blasts at 'the brush'. It's a jungle, there is nothing but brush and trees. You would have to level the Amazon for your plan to work in your favor.

I think it's a matter of just taking it slowly and doing it methodically. It's not like my team has anywhere in particular to go, they're just waiting for your team to attack. So Cardiac will be careful about it, and the rest will be on full alert, watching and waiting. I'm sure your team will take their best opportunity, but I think I can give myself what I consider to be the few extra seconds they need to react.

I do think Elektra is faster than Matt. The card scan is a good one as evidence in the opposite direction. But I think the Punisher one above is also pretty good (I know we're comparing apples and oranges when we compare Matt and Punisher's physical reaction time, but the point being it happened before he even SAW it happening). In a battle with muramasa blades, speed is key, but I think it's a situation where the faster opponent has an advantage over time, not necessarily in one clash of swords. I know that's not how you're painting the situation, but in my experience in martial arts, there's a lot of back and forth before the killing stroke, so to speak. There's too much aggregate skill here for them to one-shot each other.

The swordsmanship scans for Matt weren't very impressive, other than the Owl one, which is basically in the class of what I'm showing for Elektra above. But in the others, he basically just twirls a sword around. Hawkeye has better feats than that as Ronin.

The various DD fight scans: First of all these are great to read, very enjoyable for me as a DD fan. But on the other hand I tend to see some of them as hard to believe in terms of how DD should really match up against some others, Iron Fist being the prime example. ("Should" doesn't mean a lot in the world of debate, I know.) Generally speaking Iron Fist should give Matt a good beating; those fights (especially the recent one) are a little over the top. Matt has had too many fights with opponents with way less talent than Danny, where he still had to put in way more effort than he expends against Danny. Just for one example, take his recent fight against Bruiser (excuse the lack of scans, I'm assuming you've read this fight). In his first fight with him, he got totally beaten down. Sure he won in the rematch, but the point is that Matt's ability to beat someone goes up and down quite a lot. I'd say this is way above his normal level.

The Black Panther and Cap fights are more within his normal high range, I would say. I've seen many of his fights with Spidey, and I can never believe any of them personally because I think Spidey's strength durability and speed put him beyond Matt, but I know he's beaten him time and again, so I have to admit that it's well established that Matt can beat him. BUT, I would say that Elektra can do as well as Matt did against any of these opponents and under these conditions. Black Widow or Moon Knight--no, probably not. But, could BW and MK as a team take any one of these opponents under these conditions--yes, I think they could. As seen above, BW can take on Cap essentially solo.

In a straight fight, Daredevil has actually beaten Klaw. And again, regular street levelers can dodge grenades. I don't need extra motivation to win here. When he's actually prepared for a fight, he can dodge sonic weaponry. When he gets jumped by a crackhead with a sonic device, not so much. None of your strategies so far involve you having the drop on me, and you won't. So it's an invalid argument.

Good to see, but he's dodging what's essentially beams of sound rather than a decent-size multi-directional sphere of sound. I don't think the sonic blast radius is small enough to dodge. (The crackhead was a breakaway SHIELD agent.) DD won't be expecting the sonic grenade, so I think it means it would be very similar to the situation in the scan--it will be a surprise situation for him.

Well, now that I know I'm dealing with a Black Panther with enhanced senses, then she probably can't hide outside the group like I was planning, which does screw my strategy a bit. But, she is darn fast, I would say faster than anyone here except classic Panther, so she can certainly throw her sai at him pretty quickly. He can dodge like a normal superhero, but she's especially accurate, and he's not expecting her. He's certainly the slowest and least-capable of dodging in either team. A sai to the head is all it takes. But she would have to wait until he makes himself known during the attack, so it is no longer a "get the jump on" situation.

This is what is weird. What accuracy feats does Elektra have over anyone else? Is she more accurate than Bullseye? I've already shown Elektra is slower than Daredevil. Unless you mean Hawkeye, in which case I've already shown him dodging lasers, which are much faster than anyone can throw a sai.

What makes you say no one is expecting Elektra right after you acknowledge that Black Panther can track her. They've met before. He knows her scent. My team will know every member of your team from the start because of their senses. They know where they are at all times. Why do you think she is getting the jump on anyone? And since you're saying Hawkeye is the slowest, where are your dodging feat scans? All I've seen is Moon Knight doing some acrobatics. Since the rest of your team are so obscenely fast, please prove it.

When I said "throw her sai at him," I meant Hawkeye.

And yes, my getting the jump thing is wrong there. Gerald posted his thing about Black Panther's powers when I was halfway through writing my post, I had to go back and edit my post and probably missed some stuff.

Moon Knight's stuff included agility in general but also dodging in specific. I've also shown some pretty good acrobatics from the others as well.

Of course, if we show posts of all our folks dodging laser beams--as practically everyone in comics has done at one time or another--which are as fast as anything can be--then I guess none of our characters will ever be hit. But in reality it's more of a percentage thing. I'm sure Hawkeye has dodged his fair share of stuff. But he's not going to dodge everything forever (none of them are), and I'd say his overall percentage of dodging is lower than the others.

What's faster, priming a grenade and throwing it or performing a horizontal cut with a Katana? 'cause I have already proved that Daredevil can close a gap on Black Widow before she can react. So it's your words vs my actual scans with proof of what I'm saying.

I'd say throwing the grenade, if done from a short distance. And it's not like she'll be standing still, she'll be trying to dodge the blade. Which is a lot easier to dodge than a sonic grenade with a decent size blast radius. (I know we can go back and forth forever about the grenade's blast radius. This is the problem with made-up comic weapons. But my feeling is, if the radius is so small you can dodge it, then it's useless as a weapon and they wouldn't even make it. The blast radius has to be large enough for people to have a hard time leaving the affected area, or it's pointless. Frag grenades are somewhat different that way, they're not intended to keep someone within their radius for an extended amount of time, they're intended to do their damage in a split second, so the radius doesn't need to be as big.)

Why not? If I saw someone using a staff to produce energy blasts and I had something that could break it (Adamantium being the hardest, most dense metal in the universe) I think I would try to disable their weapons. Though if you think he would go for another target like Cardiac's eyeballs or as he did with Daken, the inside of his mouth then I don't think Cardiac would fare any better. I already posted it, but let's check out that great Clint Barton faceroll moment again.

OK, I'll accept that. But it's not a huge thing for the long term of the fight, since he can project the energy from his hands as well.

He couldn't even if he wanted to. I've shown them both dodging energy blasts. He's firing energy blasts. I have hard evidence that your tactic will not work. Why do you think a tree won't affect your team but it will affect mine? I've already shown Black Panther and Daredevil are faster than anyone on your team. If you want to chuck wood at people then you're going to be the first one going down to swinging lumber (trees fall in the direction they are felled, physics 101.)

But it's one thing to dodge energy blasts when that's all you're doing, and another to do it when fighting someone else. I mean, I know slamming a huge tree around is not a fast attack. But my hope is that he is busy dealing with other people. I'm not sure why my team is in danger here--I'm talking about picking it up and swinging it like a baseball bat, he's going to have control of it at all times. It makes a big distraction for your team, if nothing else. Also, once again Cardiac is superhumanly fast.

You have no way of taking out Hawkeye. As I said already, even if you close range on him, he's either going to beat the guy attacking him or use a force-field/pym particle arrow to escape.

What, in the split second before something hits him?

DD dodging feats: OK, as soon as I posted the Spidey dodging scan, I knew it didn't look as good as it had in my mind. Not a good example. But these DD dodging/agility feats aren't all super great either--neither the dodging nor agility stuff is much different from what I showed for Moon Knight, and the agility stuff is essentially what I showed for Black Widow. I'm not saying DD isn't a good dodger, these just don't show it to me beyond standard "good comics-style dodger" stuff. It even shows him dodging Nuke's gun only to be hit by him right after that, for example. So again, in comics everyone can dodge everything. But they don't do it all the time. It's all about what percentage of the time they can do it. DD has a very high percentage, for sure. But my team has a high enough percentage to avoid your attacks long enough to counterattack. And while your team has high percentages (mostly DD and BP), they aren't 100% (nor are mine). So it all mixes together. They're all going to dodge some stuff, and not dodge others. A full-on m-blade strike would kill, of course. But none of these people are going to be standing around waiting for that. The strikes that hit will be shallower and less targeted than decapitations. The widow's bite and Cardiac's blasts can also KO Hawkeye or DD in one hit, if they get that hit. So its a battle of mixed chances and attrition. I'm hoping my team's numbers and sonics help me take it, and again the voters will decide if that's the case or not.

BP fighting scans: I keep saying I don't doubt BP is top dog in this battle, so it's not super necessary to try to prove it. But it's also not like he totally dominated Wolverine or Cap, or as if he never got hit in those scans. He can also get hit in our battle as well. Sometimes people dodge, sometimes they don't. I agree that BP is the best here, but I disagree about the degree.

Anyway, here's my wrap up. I'm assuming I'm not going to get time to respond to your next post. If I do, it will be brief. Honestly, I would say ignore my tree-climbing strategy from my previous post. It's too late to get off on a tangent, and having slept on it, I feel just as good with my original approach. So don't bother responding to that part unless you really want to.

The following is not going to really be anything new, it's more of a summary for those voters who didn't have a chance to read all of this.

As you said, BP attacks Elektra. Hawkeye shoots an arrow at Cardiac's rod. Daredevil attacks Moon Knight and Black Widow.

Elektra will fight off BP as long as possible. They both have m-blades, so they can both hurt each other. BP is faster and stronger, so he'd win in the end. But I don't think it's a one-shot scenario by any means. Elektra is a world-class fighter, a match for Wolverine, and thus able to trade blows for a while, and get in some of her own. She is, as seen in my scans, very accurate with her swordmanship, and extremely fast for a normal human. Her feats against all kinds of foes from Wolverine to the multiple Skrulls with X-Men powers to DD, show she can hang with T'Challa for a while.

Cardiac will be knocked down, but is very durable and has a healing factor so he'll get up again and blast at Hawkeye, probably eventually hitting him which would take him out. Cardiac has superior strength and speed, so he can also close in and attack in person very effectively, as seen in his fights with Spidey, who far outclasses Hawkeye. Even if he doesn't hit him, Hawkeye will be too busy dodging to shoot any more. Or he BFRs himself through miniaturization, as you said. [This is the most up in the air part of this, to me. Hawkeye can shoot some more arrows pretty fast, but Cardiac could also shoot his energy just as fast.]

Black Widow uses her sonic grenade, dodges Daredevil (which despite that one early scan, her general agility scans dodging bullets etc. show she could do it for a while). Again, she's peak human, so she is by definition faster than him. When DD is down from the sonics, she takes him out with a widow's bite. ONE NEW THING HERE: She next throws out some smoke grenades to make it harder for Hawkeye to target anyone. To whatever degree necessary, Moon Knight helps her keep DD busy here until he goes down from the sonics. DD may be faster, but not so fast that he has an automatic hit on Moon Knight. Note that he managed to dodge all kinds of attacks from multiple directions in the various Infinity War scans, for instance, not to mention all the gunshot stuff, including attacks from the Punisher. Moon Knight is not getting one-shotted. His fight against Black Knight, for instance, show his ability to avoid being killed by someone with a super-sharp blade. And Black Knight is a better swordsman than DD. He's also beaten Deadpool. And even if he gets cut somewhat, the dude can tough it out and keep on fighting pretty effectively, as again seen in the scans.

After DD is done, Moon Knight picks up DD's M-blade and joins in the fight against Black Panther. Black Widow is not a big help against BP, since she can't hurt his armor. So she goes after Hawkeye, if he's still around, and Cardiac switches to BP, trying to pin him down with a heavy tree. Between Elektra (m-blade), Moon Knight (m-blade), and Cardiac (tree), I think they can pull out a win. If BP can only stalemate or eventually slowly beat a guy like Wolverine or Kraven, then my team's aggregate skill and multi-directional attacks could overbear him eventually.

This is obviously an optimal version of the scenario, but I think it could happen something like that.

#39 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie: Hey dude, my net has been playing up heaps these past few days. Can barely load google let alone all the scans in this thread. I'd like to get one more post up before we go to voting if that's cool. I'll get it up asap.
#40 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane said:

@Owie: Hey dude, my net has been playing up heaps these past few days. Can barely load google let alone all the scans in this thread. I'd like to get one more post up before we go to voting if that's cool. I'll get it up asap.

Absolutely, go for it. I was just logging on to say I have been swamped with work all day and am just finishing up at 2am my time. I had just one little thing I was thinking about today and I'm just going to shoot it out quick. I probably won't be on again for about 18 hours after I post this.

I was thinking about what I said about characters' percentages of dodging. DD is, as you say, a boss of dodging, and yet I still believe even characters below him can tag him sometimes. So I thought I would check it out as objectively as possible, just as a sort of test. (I chose DD because I have more comics of him than powered-up Black Panther.)

I went through every issue of DD after Shadowland, including the Reborn mini, and wrote down every time he was hit, shot, grabbed, etc. Any time somebody tagged him in any way. I figure by listing every time, it's fairly objective and in a way better than any single scan. I just randomly chose to start after Shadowland because I only had so much time and also because if I went back farther, then Shadowland has his Beast-possession powers. So it's just everything after that.

While checking back through Reborn, incidentally, I noticed that if you want awesome dodging and agility scans, then it's got everything you need. I don't want to help you out here or anything, but those were some pretty mack feats, even if against mostly normal dudes.

Anyway, here's every time he was tagged:

Reborn:

4 local yokels in Reborn beat the crap out of him--but only because he lets them.

A trucker hits him on the head with a revolver, KOing him. It's not explicit, but Matt probably lets him do it.

Calavera shoots him in the head--but only after Matt is traumatized by his psychic attack.

(so none of those above really count)

A cop manages to grab him during a fight with a bunch of guys

During this fight, he notes that there are "too many guns," meaning that at some point, there is such as thing as too much shooting for him to dodge

Current series:

the Spot grabs him (while teleporting, so this is a bit of an asterisk)

Cap fights him but they mostly miss each other; Cap does catch him around the leg with his own club's wire

He's overwhelmed by Klaw's sound

He's hit by a bus when still shocked by Klaw's sound later on

While fighting 2 lions, one claws his shoulder

Bruiser: in the first fight, Bruiser grabs him in a headlock ,and later kicks him full in the chest

Bruiser, second fight: Bruiser hits him by charging him, then lifts him up, then later grabs him out of the air, then chokes him

Moloids: while fighting a bunch of Moloids, at least one claws his costume/shoulder

Mole Man: after Matt grabs his staff, he electrifies it and zaps Matt

So many of these obviously are under very specific circumstances and do not really offer insight into our thread, but I wanted to be a completist about the list. Some do offer insight though: a normal cop was able to grab him in a group melee; he makes the comment about too many guns; the lion claws him; Bruiser beats him pretty badly; and a Moloid gets him in a group melee situation again.

It's arguable whether the lions are faster/stronger than my characters, so I'll leave that out.

The moloid and cop are good examples of how even very low level people can tag him if there are multiple attackers. Since teaming up is part of my plan, I think it's worth pointing out.

Also, while Bruiser has powers, they seem to be limited to moving his mass around, I don't think he has super speed. Yet he was able to hit Matt pretty darn often and accurately. So I think again that if Bruiser can do it, then my characters can. I'm not saying they can do it with every hit, but they have a chance.

However, I did also feel, looking through all these comics, that Matt dodged a hell of a lot of stuff in between the times he was tagged. So if anything it reinforced my respect for his dodging ability. So I feel like my little data-digging experiment worked both ways for me. I feel that my belief that Matt can definitely be tagged by my characters (some of whom have weapons that can possibly take him out in one hit) has been reinforced. On the other hand, my overall impression of his dodging ability has gone up too.

Of course, I'm sure any random set of 15 Daredevil comics would have slightly different percentages of him getting hit/not hit. But I think it's a nice insight.

Hmmm...not such a short post after all. What a surprise!

(Oh yeah, one more thing, not really related to the argument any more. This is the 80s description of Vibranium from OHOTMU, where it was restricted to just sound/kinetic energy. They've obviously changed it since then, and it no longer applies, I just wanted to point out why I had been confused by the way his suit absorbs electromagnetic energy now.)

I'll take a look at your last post before voting if I can, but if not, may the best man win!

#41 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie

I'm not saying she doesn't have any feats, I'm saying I don't have them. I think the sex motive is a little cheap there. Obviously they all chose to work with her because she's one of the top SHIELD agents ever. She was in charge of SHIELD's combat training (no jokes about how bad they are! :) ). She is an expert martial artist and sharpshooter. And, she's peak human through the super soldier serum, or whatever other explanation they've got for it these days, so she's unusually fast and strong--because of that, she should be faster than Matt, with PIS off. I think that's all pretty well accepted. But if it's "scans or it didn't happen," then that's all I got.


 She may have a super soldier serum, but she has a watered down Russian knock-off. She is not even close to Steve Rogers in physical stats or fighting skills. If you check the fights out, Daredevil is faster, stronger and more skilled than Black Widow by a long distance. The fights speak for themselves, but if you want I have another fight between DD and BW but she loses just as bad. She has never beaten a reputable fighter like Black Panther or Daredevil. Her skills do not match what you are saying.
 

Well, they are mostly against normal guys, but they're not all stationary. I wouldn't argue against your team having equal accuracy, but I think that that speaks highly of his accuracy. The point here is he can hit something pretty specific if he wants to.


Feats against thugs are easy to come by. If you want those sorts of scans I have truckloads of my team members demolishing nameless henchmen. I just think scans of them beating guys like Cap/Wolverine/Spider-Man etc prove their fighting skills better. And again, Moon Knight probably has the worst accuracy of anyone in this. If you want scans of DD/BP making difficult shots with their billy clubs/energy daggers then let me know. They're both better in every way than Moon Knight. I assume you don't need proof that Hawkeye is a better marksman, though I can produce that if you want.
 

I don't think MOST street levelers can catch arrows. I can certainly see Daredevil doing it. But the point being, if Hawkeye shoots at him, he has a decent chance of catching it. Hawkeye's arrows aren't any harder to catch than anyone else's. Again, I'm not saying he's in BP or DD's league. My strategy for Moon Knight is to use him in combination with someone else, in which case he can do quite well. Again the bloodlusted thing really has no major effect, other than letting your team kill, it's not an extra motivator. It does kind of suck for him that his armor won't help, I had originally hoped it would be better protection, having thought the blades' sharpness stopped at adamantium alloys. Oh well.

Incidentally, if you are a Moon Knight fan, you may want to check out the respect thread where I got these scans, it's very well organized and has a ton of stuff.

 
I don't see what help catching an exploding arrow is. Seems counter intuitive to me. I have a bunch of Moon Knight scans, but I'll check out the thread all the same. MK has a lot of good feats that would do well against lower tier street levelers like Tim Drake or similar. But he just isn't in the same league as my team. A character is defined by his enemies and none of MK's are anything special. He isn't like Wolverine who fights guys like Sabretooth, Omega Red, etc - he just doesn't fight superhumans or high-tier martial artists with any frequency.
 

I'd agree that beating Black Knight is not the same as beating Black Panther. But he is a top-tier swordsman and pretty good strategist, and beating him is still a decent feat, especially since he had the ebony blade. Stalemating DD is, as you say, not bad, although he usually does pretty well even with just his senses. This was actually a really bad showing for DD in a way--losing (most of) his radar just because of the noise of an arcade is pretty ridiculous, considering how noisy any normal battle is. But yes, in our battle DD does have radar, and with the muramasa blade, I wouldn't say MK wins here, one-on-one. Taskmaster--hay, it happened in a canon book, he scared the crap out of him once he realized he's just got more grit. Do you know whether the one you posted took place before or after this? I am assuming before. It is weird that we don't see the Deadpool fight, but again a win is a win. You can't argue that he has no wins against high-level opponents and then when I show some, you say they don't count because he's not capable of beating high-level opponents, that's just circular logic. He is capable, he did it right there. This to me is just classic Moon Knight's skill rearing its head after he was misused by writers for a long time.


If you want to use that Taskmaster vs Moon Knight and Deadpool vs Moon Knight fights to base your arguments, that is up to you. But remember that the voters decide for themselves how good your arguments are. Everyone can see those scans and those fights for what they are - off-screen PIS. I believe the scans where Taskmaster schools MK are before the off-screen fight. Moon Knight hasn't been misused, he lost his powers. But even when he had them, he wasn't that good of a fighter.


In terms of Moon Knight's ability to take a hit/willpower, here are some other scans in that realm. They may or may not be directly related to our fight, but add some support to his ability to take a couple arrows:

Moon Knight gets his vertebrae ripped out without making a fuss, he fights his way through some storm-level winds created by a mutant, and he gets through a sonic attack that the Thing couldn't get past. Also, I meant to post this earlier--the last one shows him using his armor to become immune to sonic attacks, in case Hawkeye happens to use a sonic arrow, although I assume you wouldn't because of Daredevil's proximity. 


I've already mentioned how Hawkeye could take down Moon Knight. You were unable to refute it before, this doesn't refute it now either. Taking arrows in the shoulder is one thing. Taking exploding arrows to the eyeballs is another.


SO, I've been thinking about the fact that this is a powered-up Black Panther. It certainly skews my strategy, not just because he's faster and stronger than I had been planning against, but also because his senses mess up my Elektra-on-the-outskirts strategy, which certainly was going to be a big part of my plan to finish off Hawkeye and DD from behind.

I think my team would still do fairly well, as described in the last post, but it would be tough for sure. Hawkeye's arrows would whittle down at least one or two of my guys before I stopped him, which would make it harder when they eventually ganged up on Black Panther.

 
Sorry dude, but I wasn't exaggerating when I said I don't think anyone on your team (or even your whole team) could take down anyone on my team. I would never take a depowered Black Panther in a tournament. He is absolutely terrible in his current volume.


Anyway, here's an alternate strategy. Maybe we can take up the last day discussing it.

My team will take to the trees, meaning that they'll travel along the tree tops. My team is all pretty agile and will have no serious difficulty jumping from one tree to the next, especially in a densely-packed place like a jungle (Moon Knight, Elektra, and Black Widow will have no trouble with this, and Cardiac, while less of a trained acrobat, has superhuman speed/agility/strength, and will be able to get along just fine). This has a few advantages.
 

One, while Black Panther and Daredevil will certainly be totally at home in the tree tops, Hawkeye will be less so; he's the least agile one here. It will also be harder for him to get any decent shots in the dense canopy of a jungle.

Two, and this is the main thing, since each of my team members will be in a different tree at all times, your guys won't be able to attack more than one at a time. So no "DD kills both at once" kind of stuff. And once one of your team shows up in a tree, then a second member of my team can show up to aid them directly or attack from a medium distance (since all my team has distance attacks).

 
-Hawkeye can ricochet arrows off trees and hit you. 
-Hawkeye is also able to navigate trees as well as anyone on your team. Remember his time as Ronin? He's not out of shape or something. 
-Just because you're moving doesn't make you unhittable either. It just means you'll be more tired from running and jumping for hours when we finally do fight. 
-Your teams distance attacks are useless. My team can either dodge or tank them.
-You have no way of tracking me - you never get the first hit. My team only needs one hit to kill. Open/shut case.
-Separating your team just means no one can help them when they get picked off one by one.
 
Now, you could do something like use the swords to cut the trees down, but they can jump to new trees fairly easily, so I don't think that's a big issue. You'll have to attack from up in the trees, and that will mean that you will have a harder time taking my team completely by surprise from super-close range. They'll still ambush my team, don't get me wrong, but not easily enough for them to make it a one-shot situation. We'll be able to tell you're coming from at least a reasonable distance and have that 15' or so distance we need to react. After your team attacks, then it generally goes down as described before, but with it being harder for Hawkeye to provide support than before, and with no two-at-once attacks from your side.
 
Why? Black Panther can just use his claws to silently climb the tree and impale one of your teammates in the back. Then jump away before you know what is what.
You have no way of telling that I'm coming. How do you track my team if they sneak up behind you? That dense jungle canopy you're counting on for cover protects my team just as much as yours.
 

For Black Widow, this is a fight with Cap from the Streets of Poison storyline. Cap is, as you know, on the drug Ice, which is basically putting him in a no-morals, violent state. Before we get to Black Widow, he meets Daredevil, and beats the holy hell out of him. DD is so trashed that when he's lying on the ground, barely able to move, Crossbones comes up and is able to lift his mask and see who he is, and Matt can't do anything about it. Soon after (the issue right after he beats Matt, the same issue where Crossbones lifts Matt's mask), Black Widow and Diamondback fight Cap. Diamondback is hardly a factor in the fight, but I'll get to her part later. Black Widow doesn't do super-well in the H2H part (about as well as Matt), as should be expected, but is eventually able to take him down directly with one hit of her widow's blast. Basically, it shows that she had what it took to, number one, survive the physical part of the combat with Cap, while DD couldn't. Number two, it shows that she had what it took to finish the fight in her favor, which Matt couldn't. It also shows that her widow's bite is powerful enough to take down someone like Cap in one shot (Cap was in no way physically impaired by the Ice, so that's not a factor). And if she can take down Cap, she can take down DD. Regarding the scan you showed where her bite didn't slow him down, either that's just PIS or she's had it amped up since.


Four major things I have a problem with.
 
1) Skill Level - Captain America is miles better than anyone on your team. Daredevil taking a punch from Captain America has no bearing on this fight. If you had Captain America (bloodlusted) on your team, it might. You don't. It would be like me using Spider-Man beating down Cardiac against you. I don't have Spider-Man so I'm not doing that.
2) Direct Showings vs ABC Logic - I have shown direct fights between Daredevil and Black Widow. He wins decisively every time. You have ABC Logic involving Captain America to make a skewed argument in your favor. This is a poor tactic. DD and BW have fought enough for you to use real examples, you can't though because she has never come close to winning.
3) Cheap Shots - Black Widow cheap shots Captain America from behind. She will not ever have that opportunity here because of my trackers. It's invalid because the circumstances, which are skewed in her favor are not present in our battle. Daredevil approached Captain America (his friend) and unwittingly gets haymakered by a guy who can benchpress a ton. I'd be down for the count too.
4) Mind Control - Mind controlled heroes do not fight at peak capacity because they are in turn fighting against the mind control. I can show you a dozen examples of lesser/equal characters taking down their betters when they are mind controlled. 
 
For the readers at home, here is the whole fight between Captain America (bloodlusted) and Daredevil. It's a lot closer than you made out, and unlike BW - a straight fight and not a cheapshot.
Captain America vs Daredevil



 
Mind Controlled Madness. 
Here is Stephanie Brown taking down Huntress, Catwoman and Man-Bat in a few seconds. How does a feat-less wonder accomplish this? They're mind-controlled.


Here is Cable taking down a mind-controlled Wolverine (who had just solo'd the X-Men)

 
 
As much as I think both fights are hilarious and retarded, they aren't actually as bad as you comparing Black Widow to Captain America. Steph Brown is probably in Catwoman's ballpark. Cable might be able to hold his own momentarily against Wolverine. On the other hand, Captain America would dominate Black Widow. 
 

This is also a good spot to talk about teaming up on someone. You're taking the position that two lower-skill people, together, can't really team up against a superior opponent. In some cases this is true, such as this fight right here. Diamondback added nothing to the fight with Cap. (I know I didn't show the whole fight, I'm pressed for time.) It was all Widow. This is because Diamondback is so far below either of them that she just couldn't really add any benefit. But, if you've got two people who are both fairly close to their opponent in skill, the situation is quite different. While the higher-level guy can beat either of the others, it would take him some time to do so. And with two at once, his attention is split, they can come at him from multiple angles, using different kinds of attacks (like H2H vs shooting) and so on. So the team can win quite easily, if they act in a coordinated manner as a team. Being able to defeat either of them individually is not the same as being able to beat them both simultaneously. I don't think that's too radical a concept. The key is how big the skill level difference is. I'm arguing that in our battle, it's close enough for it to work in my favor. (And I know you think the opposite. Voters will have to choose.)


 
That would be a feat if Steve Rogers wasn't mind-controlled. 
 
Behold my counter argument for teaming up against vastly superior opponents.
 


If you don't match someone, you don't match them. Your team is tactically outclassed with Black Panther on me team. They can't come up with a plan that is better than his. I have a lot of scans of him leading the Avengers into battle, leading Wakanda in battle against the Skrull army, etc. He's going to have a battle plan that is better than yours. We will have the element of surprise, superior stealth, superior fighting skills, superior tracking. 4v3 is not enough to overcome the extreme deficit of literally every other factor.
 


For Elektra, here are a few more scans.

First is some sword skill stuff--She cuts a guy's arms and legs off, but in such a way that his body is still perched together. So when Punisher comes in, he touches the guy without realizing what happened and his limbs fall off. This is some crazy skill. DD doesn't do anything like this.

Then for speed--she is talking to Punisher, then grabs his gun. He sees it in her hands before he even realizes it's gone. That's some crazy speed.

Then strength/ability/skill: she manages to jam her sai into Red She Hulk's spine. So not only is she able to penetrate her highly-durable skin, but is able to do so in a very specific spot to temporarily disable her at the same time--which is one thing to do to the Owl, but another thing to do to Red She Hulk, considering the extra difficulty of dealing with her durability.

Then sword skill again: She cuts Nina's headband in half without cutting her at all, and all done during a flying flip (I'm not saying the flip is hard, but doing the cut during a flip is harder than on the ground). Very accurate, moreso than the Owl thing.

 
It's actually non-sensical more than anything. She cuts up a guy with no fighting skill and it's supposed to be a better feat than Matt taking down one of his more skilled rogues? Lame. 
Cutting off someone's legs is much easier than performing acrobatics while slashing someone's spine in exactly the right place to paralyze them but not actually injure them otherwise. 
Stopping a katana short of hitting someone is the same as stopping a punch before hitting someone, only more precise. I don't think it's the same as surgical precision. It is impressive but I don't think it's more impressive or more accurate.
 
The Red She-Hulk thing is a joke. First of all, Hulks can't be hurt by ordinary weapons in that way. Their skin is harder than the metal, this isn't quantum physics. Second of all, I remember reading that comic. It's the same one where Red Hulk gets his eyes cut out by Wolverine and then complains that about the lighting in the room, saying it is too dark. Yes, a guy with no eyeballs is making comments on visual acuity. Jeph Loeb at his finest sir. 
 

For Moon Knight, here's another battle with Infinity War doppelgangers. In this, and the previous one, it's damn impressive how he's getting through them all. We've got people with super speed and agility, energy attack, etc. going against him, all at once. He can certainly manage to avoid getting cut in the first couple seconds of a fight with any of the people on your team.


Fighting doppelgangers is one thing. Fighting the real deal is another. He does well, but he wouldn't do the same against the real characters. The problem when comparing that scenario to this one is that they're different. In that one he can see them all clearly and has full warning of their attacks. That simply doesn't apply to our fight.
 

Also a fight with grey Hulk--not actually winning, of course, but not bad for a normal human, getting into his hide and some nice creativity in going for the ears.

 
I have fights of Black Panther beating The Hulk, Magneto and Doctor Doom. Your call on that.
 
Will make another post to address the rest of your points shortly.

#42 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:

I'm just going to be super-quick here and only address the major points.

She may have a super soldier serum, but she has a watered down Russian knock-off. She is not even close to Steve Rogers in physical stats or fighting skills. If you check the fights out, Daredevil is faster, stronger and more skilled than Black Widow by a long distance. The fights speak for themselves, but if you want I have another fight between DD and BW but she loses just as bad. She has never beaten a reputable fighter like Black Panther or Daredevil. Her skills do not match what you are saying.

I agree, she is not at Cap's level. And I can't disagree with the fights you've shown between DD and BW, of course. But even so, she was able to take down Cap, and that feat is perfectly solid for what it is. And it does directly show that her Bite can take down someone with one shot. Cap's can obviously take more of a hit than DD (not putting down DD's ability to take a hit, but Cap's is better from the serum). And as she says, she could have killed him, she used less than the full power to just knock him out. So her bite is clearly an effective weapon.

I wasn't so much trying to create an an ABC situation where Widow beats Cap, Cap beats DD, so Widow beats DD. I was trying to show that, despite your mind control argument where mind controlled people are less capable than normal, in fact this Cap, the Cap she beat, was able to beat DD. So he was not a weaker version of Cap. (Nor was he mind controlled, he was out of control.)

And in the full Cap vs DD fight, DD does do ok at first, but certainly takes a beating at the end. It was the results that mattered--again I wanted to show this was a Cap who could take down DD.

You are right that guys like DD and BP and Hawkeye have fought more super-powered villains than my team. It is what it is. I have to make due with the opponents my team has had. But I do need to make the point that the Infinity Crusade doppelgangers weren't lesser than their counterparts. Several of them were able to beat the original characters. So MK's fights against them are rock solid.

If you want to use that Taskmaster vs Moon Knight and Deadpool vs Moon Knight fights to base your arguments, that is up to you. But remember that the voters decide for themselves how good your arguments are. Everyone can see those scans and those fights for what they are - off-screen PIS. I believe the scans where Taskmaster schools MK are before the off-screen fight. Moon Knight hasn't been misused, he lost his powers. But even when he had them, he wasn't that good of a fighter.

I don't think there's a difference between on and off panel feats, as long as we see the results. And the results were that he won. Of course in other fights, he may not. But it shows that he can sometimes fight at that level.

Like I said, I'm skipping the climb-the-trees strategy.

Behold my counter argument for teaming up against vastly superior opponents. [Shadowland Daredevil fight]

Obviously, this is a situation where there is a huge gap between the opponents, and is hugely unapplicable. I am arguing that where a gap exists, it is nowhere near so large, and thus my team can effectively team up against your team.

It's actually non-sensical more than anything. She cuts up a guy with no fighting skill and it's supposed to be a better feat than Matt taking down one of his more skilled rogues? Lame.

I'm saying the skill is in being able to but him without him falling apart, and with him staying alive until lifted up--that's skill.

Also, thinking back a few posts to the scan where Matt caught the card in front of Elektra's neck. I just want to say that that doesn't really prove Matt's superior speed, it proves his ability to sense and track the card as it was coming in. Small point, but I wanted to throw it in. Whereas again, Elektra took Punisher's gun away from him without him even knowing it until she pointed it out.

You mentioned you were going to do another post. I don't know if you still are, or if you're still having internet trouble. Feel free if you want to. I don't know when the voting officially starts. Tomorrow?

#43 Edited by 0blivion_ (623 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane has my vote

Editted: I would like to give owie props for his effort, he tried hard and has potential.

#44 Posted by beatboks1 (7533 posts) - - Show Bio

AAHHH Head implosion imminent. I'll take more time to read all tonight ( and tomorrow.......) will vote soon :)

#45 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting's open?

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#46 Posted by Owie (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting is open...

Please vote for the debator that you think made the better argument for their team. Thanks.

#47 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio

I regret I was unable to post my final rebuttal before the voting opened. My internet has been down for 12 hours at a time. This page took me about 45 minutes to load. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.
 
As Owie said, please vote for whoever you feel made better arguments for their team. Best of luck to everyone in the tournament.

#48 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (5234 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane has my vote. I would like to congratulate both of you on an impressive debate though. Was enjoyable to read.

#49 Posted by Vance Astro (91415 posts) - - Show Bio

Also Voting for Dane.

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#50 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane's got mine, as well.

I feel like you both held a great and extremely educational debate (which is the reason I love tournaments so much), but that Dane did an overall better job.

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