vs
Sise-Neg vs SA Superman, SA Dr. Fate and SA Martian Manhunter
Fight is to the death, who wins?
Sise-Neg vs SA Superheroes
This topic is locked from further discussion.
@beatboks1 said:
I don't see the team harming Sise-Neg but neither do I see him causing any lasting damage to Classic Fate. Even Spectre couldn't destroy him in All Star Squadron. He could however BFR him by making him hurl through an infinity of dimensions. That is the only way Sise-Neg can claim a win and if he goes for that option might give it too him.
Sise Neg could outright suck out every shred of magic from Doctor Fate.
Sise-Neg is not just a demon, or a random sorcerer, he is the one being who went from a magician into personal embodiment of god in marvel, after essentially have absorb every shred of magic, from every point in time.
His ability is to absorb and manipulate magic, be it eye of Agamatto, Priest of the Death, Merlin, Sattanish, Shuma Gorath etc.
Doctor Strange and Baron Mordo became nearly powerless simply being at his presence.
He is like a kryptonite to magic users. A downright undefeatable guy which is why he appeared for 1 story and never again.
@dondave: yes
@theking47: oooooh I forgot we have Silver Age Superman here.He won't be going down
Standing against a Big Bang
He powered through the mass of entire creation and its gravity,in the dawn of creation,the gravity,mass,pressure,all was nearly-infinite(wiki)
He subjected to a big bang in his face,they thought even Superman can't take a big bang on his face
He didn't even pass out....
but when he destroyed that pyrimid,he triggered a wave of energy that made him vanish from the universe and that made every hero disappear from the universe alongside with him,Clark has still exist,He didn't only tank a Big bang on his face, he's immune to time manipulation
@claymore1998 said:
@dorukesin: Are you trying to say Superman could defeat Sise-Neg or just showing Superman's feat. I ask because if its the former we could have a cool discussion here :=)
I don't know anything about Sise Neg so I'm leaving the discussion to you.But I'm sure about one thing ,Clark won't be going down that ease
@hulkman123 said:
So? Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated the Universe. Not to mention that SA Superman is especially weak against magic and this is the most powerful magic user that Marvel has ever had.
Sise-Neg still stomps.
He tanked the blasts of pre COIE Mordru who had absorbed all the magic in the universe. He felt pain from them but he endured that and still survived.
SA Clark was one of those six heroes and he took it. The magical power to "annihilate galaxies". Superman of the Silver age has already survived magical galaxy busting attacks on at least 5 occasions I know of. He has tanked the end of everything. Mordru was so powerful it took every wizard in the universe JUST to weaken him to half his power and bind him so that he could not leave Earth in the 30th century. Even that didn't prevent him from Simply reaching his hand through time in a jiant form and taking what he wanted.
Thanks to beatboks1
@dorukesin said:
@hulkman123 said:
So? Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated the Universe. Not to mention that SA Superman is especially weak against magic and this is the most powerful magic user that Marvel has ever had.
Sise-Neg still stomps.
He tanked the blasts of pre COIE Mordru who had absorbed all the magic in the universe. He felt pain from them but he endured that and still survived.
SA Clark was one of those six heroes and he took it. The magical power to "annihilate galaxies". Superman of the Silver age has already survived magical galaxy busting attacks on at least 5 occasions I know of. He has tanked the end of everything. Mordru was so powerful it took every wizard in the universe JUST to weaken him to half his power and bind him so that he could not leave Earth in the 30th century. Even that didn't prevent him from Simply reaching his hand through time in a jiant form and taking what he wanted.
Thanks to beatboks1
This is a Universe buster not a Galaxy buster like Mordru is shown to be above. There are billions of Galaxies in a Universe.
Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that scan is non canon, I'll have to check up on that though.
@dorukesin said:
Cool. What I will do is, since you have listed his feats below I will try and post feats from Sise-Neg to suggest he is more powerful than the attacks he has tanked or beings he has fought.
That being said, do keep in mind that Sise-Neg only has 2 issues were he made his appearance so the number of feats from him will be limited.
Beyond the scans I have seen on various comic book forums I know very little about Silver Age Superman to know whether it would be easy or otherwise.
The scan you posted says nothing about him having absorbed the magic of universe though, that part I am quite interested. That being said Sise Neg did something similar, he sucked the mystic power not just from universe but even beyond, including a void beyond time and space (i.e. the universe) [also note he sucked more than magic towards the end of the story, scans will be posted below]
That being said Sise-Neg did the same thing travelled all the way from 30th Century, to pre-big bang point, absorbing entire source of magic from each point in time.
Furthermore, he absorbed every single power in the universe to a point, space and time itself melded into power, the power with a name, Sise-Neg.
Power to annihilate galaxies is impressive, but here he is facing a guy who used his power to re-create the very big bang. He then used his power to transfer Dr. Strange and Mordro from pre-big bang point to their rightful place, shielding them from the power of big bang. He also created the universe as it it, with all the mystic user powers restored (he took the magic from every single mystic being, and entity, from the universe and beyond) and yet retained his goodhood.
Gallery
This is where i inquire, did Superman solo Mordru? Because as you can see above Sise Neg feat is actually even better than what Mordru did. He likewise sucked the power of every mystic entities (including very gods of Chaos , like Shuma Gorath), re-created the universe, gave everyone their powers back and still retained his godhood.
Below are scans of Sise-Neg showing up and sucking energy from everyone, travelling further back in time and sucking energies out of Shuma Gorath.
Gallery
Just a side note, when Dr. Strange absorbed the power of Shuma Gorath, in essence becoming Shuma Gorath, he became so powerful than if he were to be brought in out universe his very presence would annihilated galaxies. So ability to bust multiple galaxy to a guy who just leached and send Shuma away with ease should mean very little.
Sise-Neg was a part of 1 story, but in that 1 story he was GOD.
Sise Neg could outright suck out every shred of magic from Doctor Fate
That whole premise doesn't work against any DCU magic user in general but particularly against Classic Dr Fate
No magic user in the DCU actually HAS any magic (in them) to "drain" every single magic user who has a mortal form (host, body etc) simply uses and directs the magic energy that is a part of everything around them. It's actually stated in DCU canon that no mortal form can contain magical energy and wield it directly without it destroying them. In fact they can't even wield it through their own bodies without it doing so either. For this reason when all DCU mages work magic they need either a familiar, or talisman to work the magic through. Or they need to draw it from mystical beings who are "energy forms". Fate does both he wears three talismans AND draws power from the Lords of Order.
The reason why Fate specifically is even less bothers by your "draining of magic" is that Classic Fate isn't just a magic user. he's an energy and matter manipulator. The majority of his showings don't have him casting spells or anything like that but draining the energy out of something, or using the energy within his atoms . Nuclear energy, electricity, the "very wells springs of life/life force it didn't matter.
Gallery
He doesn't have any "magical energy to drain" because he uses the normal energy in and around him, usually referred to as atomic or electric. The whole basis behind his powers was that he was taught the secret of molecular control of himself and other things
He taps the power within his own atoms or those around him. He drains any type of energy to use it. Other than that he and his peers (the Lords of order and Chaos) gain power from worship. In the case of many of them by appearing to mortals as gods (the gods of Ancient Egypt, Aztec, Greece etc) or as In Nabu's case by being appearing as a mortal champion who received hero worship.
Dr Fate however get's no worship and the change of having their power stem from the dreams of man didn't happen until after the New JLA was formed after Legends post COIE (which isn't "Classic" Fate).
Aside from a few issues of Flash (where he was a back up) which were reprinted in some mini's and one shots in the 70's/80's, a handfull of All Star Comics toward the end of the 70's, and All Star Squadron in the 80's Classic Fate wasn't shown to really use magic in the conventional sense (like casting spells). every single depiction of him was far more like Molecule man but with TK, TP, Super Strength, Invulnerability, precog, dimensional manipulation, time manipulation etc etc thrown in.
When you add in the fact that he was shown to be immune to the reality warping of Ynar and Vandeamon in Flash 313 (who stated they warped the cosmos to their will)
Gallery
Despite the planet changing shape and form under their feet the very heavens metamorphosing above them into something new with different heavenly bodies and no other appearance of life still existing Dr fate and his Wife and tower remain unaffected by cosmic level reality warping. Considering he was the only one who appeared to have the power to stop the two gods warping everything if it was within their power to warp him they would have.
In his battle with the aztec god Totec/Malferrazae it was clearly sated also that neither of them could be killed, that they were beings without end.
Spectre himself couldn't destroy him either
All his best attack could do was BFR
@lol said:
@beatboks1: why Spectre not attempt to suck the magic of Fate?
What magic would that be?? he doesn't drain people of power. In DoV he destroyed places of power and drained the magic from them to amp him. When he fought Shazam he drained the power from the Rock of Eternity not Shazam (because that is the power Shazam uses, wields the power from the rock).
@beatboks1 said:
Why wouldnt it work given who he is facing.
No magic user in the DCU actually HAS any magic (in them) to "drain" every single magic user who has a mortal form (host, body etc) simply uses and directs the magic energy that is a part of everything around them. It's actually stated in DCU canon that no mortal form can contain magical energy and wield it directly without it destroying them
Even with that being the case it really wouldnt make a difference, because Sise-Neg doesnt just absorb magic from magic user, he absorbs every shred of magic from the whole universe in one go, undefeated, uncontested.
Gallery
This is also before the end of the story, by which he becomes a whole lot more powerful.
I honestly dont see how any of this would impede Sise-Neg. Dr. Strange does likewise, draws magic from external entities as well as use talisman, he drained him at will even over-power the very eye of Agamatto.
He did not face any Lord of Order on panel, though he took power from everywhere in the universe and beyond so perhaps they were involved. He however met the most powerful Lord of Chaos in marvel, in the form of Shuma Gorath, drained him, put him to sleep and send him away. He did not kill him because he choose not to. All this in 1 page flat without even breaking a sweat.
Gallery
The reason why Fate specifically is even less bothers by your "draining of magic" is that Classic Fate isn't just a magic user. he's an energy and matter manipulator. The majority of his showings don't have him casting spells or anything like that but draining the energy out of something, or using the energy within his atoms . Nuclear energy, electricity, the "very wells springs of life/life force it didn't matter.
Funnily enough even this wouldnt impede Sise-Neg because he absorbed not just mystic energy, but everything. Space, time, everything till every-power in the universe before the big bang was his to wield. He had become god. He then choose to re-create everything.
Gallery
When you add in the fact that he was shown to be immune to the reality warping of Ynar and Vandeamon in Flash 313 (who stated they warped the cosmos to their will)
Despite the planet changing shape and form under their feet the very heavens metamorphosing above them into something new with different heavenly bodies and no other appearance of life still existing Dr fate and his Wife and tower remain unaffected by cosmic level reality warping. Considering he was the only one who appeared to have the power to stop the two gods warping everything if it was within their power to warp him they would have.
I was not talking about warping reality but rather simply sucking the whole space, time, magic, and chronal energy all in himself. That is what Sise-Neg achieved by the end of the story, it was his choice to reverse everything.
Though since you mentioned reality warping, before absorbing power from various universes, Sise-Neg already was powerful enough warp all reality at will. Reality Warping is just too minor a power to attribute to Sise-Neg.
I dont know who Totec is but his fight with Spectre should make no difference here. We are not talking about some extremely powerful Dr. Strange villain but a mystical god. One person who had every single power in the grasp, from 30th Century all the way to pre-big bang. He also had power not from from within the universe but beyond it as well.
He was powerful enough to re-create the big bang, create the universe as it is, re-endow every mystic users he had drained, send Dr. Strange and Mordro back in his respective point in time and still have all the energy to remain a GOD.
We are talking about mystic powers beyond comprehension.
It wouldn't work because DCU mages don't have power to wield that simply control power around them. If that power was in their opponent it doesn't stop them from using it. Sise-Neg could have absorbed every bit of power that is and Fate could still use the power he does in the same ways because he still has the same talismans to funnel it through. DCU magic is full of battles that work this way. Mordru used the power of the Rock of eternity (which is Shazam's place of power) against it's master Shazam, so did Spectre in DoV. The fact was in BOTH instances they used the power of the very one they fought. Fate's entire history is the same.
I'm not sure why your taking such an issue with what I'm saying because I haven't even said the team wins. I openly said from the get go that Sise-Neg would easily deal with Supes and MMH (especially MMH) and that he could defeat Fate by BFR.
I said
This could be true for Superman and certainly for Martian Manhunter (SA MMH was WELL below post COIE levels- not as strong, fast or durable and almost never demonstrated TP/TK/shape shifting etc. he was just a weaker Superman type with a more mundane weakness).
However Classic Fate was immune to reality warping so I'm not sure how he get's blinked out of existence. ....................................................................... He could however BFR him by making him hurl through an infinity of dimensions. That is the only way Sise-Neg can claim a win and if he goes for that option might give it too him.
All I ever questioned was the idea that he would destroy Fate because it isn't possible. The only way (and this is stated) to "end" classic Fate is to make his host (Kent) an unwilling one. Classic Fate is the most powerful version. The Strauss Fate was the least powerful version pre 52 (Nu52 so far seems very weak). The Strauss Fate survived the end of existence and it's recreation. the only other being to do so was the one who caused it.
Gallery
This destruction of existence was set in motion by the Lords of Order who sought Andrew Bennett to do it for them. As it was the time of Kali Yuga (the age of Chaos) they had stopped fighting and instead simply sought the end of everything so that a new creation would begin in a time of Order.They sought to end everything so that Order would win even if they would not
The weakest version of Fate could not be destroyed by the destruction of everything that exists. the strongest version of Fate has been stated to be unable to be killed countless times. Sise-Neg is NOT blinking him out of existence because it can't be done.
I could go on to show (with scans) how Dr fate and the other Lords of Order and Chaos are the source of creation and life in the DCU
Gallery
And to show how the destruction of Said Lords in the earliest parts of the DCU time line would cause the destruction of reality itself
Gallery
The Lords of Order and Chaos cannot kill each other (which is why they have always bound, expelled or absorbed each other in battle) because destroying one causes the demise of the other and the end of creation. Individually they don't possess that level of power of course but the destruction of any one of them greatly weakens all existence (as an opposite would also cease to exist). The flow of their energies is what creates and causes life and existence. Their balance 9and as it's become battle) is necessary for existence.
There are of course contradictory creation myths in the DCU but all come from an energy wave (the New God's god wave, the Greek Gods energy of Cronus etc). and Since the battle of the LOO and LOC causes an energy wave it still fits with all. There is also the whole Presence and creation thing, But Phantom Stranger had stated on panel that he created the LOO and LOC to cause creation through their balanced energies.
Please, I'm not stating that the team wins, never have. I know they loose. I'm just saying that Fate won't and in fact CAN'T be blinked out of existence. Just as draining him of energy achieves absolutely nothing because he doesn't have any, he uses the energy around him which he can just as easily do to the same level he normally would IF that energy is within Sise-Neg. He isn't limited by the energy within him but the talismans that he can focus it through.
Log in to comment