Sis-Neg and Celestials vs Lucifer

@nothingclever: there's a lot for me to answer, in this post and others. So I'll make sure to try and get around to it all.

1) The way Lucifer described it, they "took the space that Yahweh left vacant." That's a paraphrase. I have the books so I'll have to get them to quote it word for word. However, the Titans proved themselves immune to both Michael and Lucifers powers because they filled this role. They're weren't EXACTLY omnipotent (not yet at least) as they were the supreme entities of the creation. As the supreme entities, everyone was below them. And yes, the reason Lucifer defeated them was because they reached into the memories of a female Lucifer came into contact with to create a negative capable of canceling him out. This process was a two way street, as Lucifer was capable of destroying them with the very same woman they reached to.

2) Why so? Are there any rules in particular that you think Lucifer HAS to adhere to for reasons other than plot/character?

3) Issue # for what exactly? The Presence tells Lucifer he escaped his design in issue #75 (the last chronological issue.) But if you mean the rules for his multiverse, there are multiple points. We see him shape the multiverse and decide how everything should be. I have many of the comics, so I'll have to get around to uploading pictures to my laptop. I will also get around to finding the exact issues, as I have the volumes instead of the individual issues.

4) No problem.

5) As I said in 3, I'll get around to getting these pictures up. I'll make sure that very scan where Lucifers stated to have escaped the Presences plan is the first one up.

here it is

7) The thing about Thanos becoming one with Lucifer and Michael is that he's becoming one with the very will and power of the Presence. The thing being, there are no rules to restrict them. I just can't see him becoming one with their abilities. Lucifers will is absolute as is Michaels power. But again, I don't think they'll win, it's just a stalemate. But I want to make sure that I don't think he'll be able to ABSORB their powers. I can see him becoming one with the multiverse perhaps, and maybe even them (kinda doubtful, especially given their powers) but I vehemently doubt he can absorb them, at least in any permanent way.

@skyroid: Lol. No. You still haven't topped becoming one with the multiverse. So many of those points whether yours or from the CAV are way off. Purgatory = to a multiverse? You're kidding right?

1:Mansions of silence contains countless creation. DC is but one of Gods Creation so yes so i do believe Purgatory >or= a Multiverse.

You are simply ignoring the proven function of HOTU: Thanos became one with the multiverse. Purgatory? Part of the multiverse. Lucifer's flames? Part of the multiverse.

2:Thats the thing your not getting, theres no proof he can absorb them or be them. its a self made statement.

Morpheus is ABC and not in this battle.

3:i used him to explain Lucifer's superiority to Morpheus as you used LT. but this is unnecessary so you may ignore it as you wish

LT as speculation? You realize all of this is speculation right? Its a theoretical battle. And it is a fair speculation. Each are pretty much their respective Creators' second in command. I've addressed this.

4:has LT created Marvel? or destroyed countless creations? can LT have the power over cosmic, magic, and divine power; do they have power over emotion, reality, logic, senses, will, time.....EVERYTHING? that's not a fair speculation at all. being 2nd in command in one creation doesn't equal another as i already said it before.

Lucifer/Michael have power over concepts and everything! K. So does Thanos w/HOTU.

5:Thanos has never demostrated power over emotion, logic or will.

Prove to me that Thanos can't absorb them dude. Whether you like it or not LT is the same tier as the two angels combined and the similarities are obvious. LT exists across a multiverse where as Lucifer and Michael are singular.

6:Thats not how it works....you make a claim you prove it. you stated he can absorb them and your asking me to disprove it? also again with LT speculation? read #4. being across a multiverse isn't gonna do much.

Based on your responses you are not reading and most importantly understanding the points I have made, specifically in my posts to @oblivionknight: above. You are flailing with random feats for both your combatants that still do not compare to total oneness.

7: Your point was that since he became one within the universe ( we both know in comic it says its a universe even though its actually a multiverse) that he could become one with them. to which i said that doesn't prove he can become one with them and asked for proof for your claim to HOTU having the ability to become Michael and Lucifer.

Do you understand the concept of oneness? That means Thanos with HOTU is one with everything in the multiverse: every being regardless of whether they manifest physically, as energy, as magic, as a concept, a dream, whatever as well as every dimension (Crimson Cosmos, Asgards in every universe, the Dark Dimension, everywhere), every place. ALl the matter, antimatter, energy, magic, everything. He himself is just like the Demiurgic Power and Will of God but contained in one being and he is one with the substance of everything. Oneness that allowed him to absorb a multiverse because it was all just a part of him anyway.

8:and your still not answering the question. that doesn't prove he can become Michael and Lucifer. he became one with the universe that doesnt prove he can become one with Michael or Lucifer. so prove it.

Lucifer threatening to blow up creation with a door bomb (and not doing is a non-feat). Lucifer's flames are nothing compared to HOTU. Michael's Demiurgic Power is nothing compared to HOTU.

9: you asked for feat and i listed them did i not? Michael demiurgic power is nothing? Hotu which has limit is more powerful the demurgic power? power that expends forever? ocean of power with no shore?

I'm done.

You still do not have a feat to compare to Thanos with HOTU. You are just wasting my time by not reading and understanding my points or engaging in intelligent discussion. You ignore facts presented to you and you fail to grasp the concept of becoming one with a universe comparable to TOAA. And you are still using outright wrong feats.

10: Thanos absorbed everything and became everything.

-here on out much thanks goes to Van_Cere who did an amazing CaV Here

*lucifer is not physical, he IS will, gods will... Hotu has never effect Gods will and i dont even remember it affecting anybodies will. there's no proof he can absorb or be one with Lucifer of Michael

*Lucifer destroyed purgatory (not comparable?) has HOTU done this?

*Creating Dc ( not comparable?)Hotu absorbed everything and possibly released everything without the flaw to which i say this is a better feat.

Gallery

*confirmation that it was indeed a multiverse. also shows that lucifer can destroy souls in another creation from his own without moving a muscle. also shows the beings sent to kill him can not even scratch him.

Gallery

*death is beneath lucifer: he cannot die unlike thanos and this is him without his full power, he still couldn't die. he was just , as death said "stuck between time".

*another introduction. the mansions of silence is...well, i will let lokis cousin explain it for me:

and it is huge. it contains infinite realms and universes: also this is backed by Mike Carey

*a few of the realms and universes they traveled through:

Gallery

*and here comes lucifer, destroying the entire place with his presence:

Gallery

*the place that gods, demons alike, goes after they die, or were killed a second time. and lucifer calls it fragile.

*lucifer once made so that if anyone tries closing the gate to the primal monitor, the rest of creation will be unmade too:

*but later, he did the impossible, he unmade the paradox. note that this happened when lucifer was still weakened because god had left creation, and he was weakened further by all the battles, what with him destroying the concept of destruction, him sending a messenger to the presence outside creation....

Gallery

*lucifers lightbringer flames, the flames from the fire in which he birthed, the flames that were before there was creation, before there was time, space, death, destiny and all that, is enough to destroy the multiversal indestructible book of destiny, the source of destinys devastating power (destiny being the second most powerful endless, even more powerful than dream, who is either the third or the fourth below destruction):

*the flames are powerful enough to destroy even the logos, known to most as the voice (of the presence) which sang creation into being. (not to be confused with the logoz, the connection the spectre has to the presence. (i have always wondered how ones voice can be a separate aspect. this explains it; his words are so pure they do not rot or die, and keeps on making the same sound. kind of like me saying shut up, and the two words linger there. except mine is not holy.) (Not comparable?)

okay, here is the destroying bit:

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*Michael after Gods departure was doing what HOTU did but not ONCE he was doing it moment by moment repeatedly ( not comparable?) your right, its better.here is proof of what the power demiurgic is capable of

first, proof michaels power is limitless as stated by god himself:

This is what makes Michael out of Lucifers and HOTUs league.

*to erase something and to destroy something are two different things. one leaves nothing behind while the other leaves something. the fact that he said nothing will be left means it can erase the very thing it can create. that is everything.

now, lucifer can tank a full blast while right next to it. without scrath.so i wonder how thanos can harm him at full power: (not comparably?) Has HOTU tanked a creation erasing blast without a scrath?

*the demiurgic power is the basic building block for everything, matter, energy, even abstracts like time, death, distance, emotions...

*when michael stopped renewing creation, everything was slowly fading out of existence. first, matter, energy and all that is physical. in the secondary stage, abstract things like time, emotions, souls, and even willpower

* the demiurgic power is the basic building block for everything, matter, energy, even abstracts like time, death, distance, emotions....: ( not comparable?)

*when Michael stopped renewing creation, everything was slowly fading out of existence. first, matter, energy and all that is physical. in the secondary stage, abstract things like time, emotions, souls, and even willpower.

*yes....and now we recognize their power. lucifer and michael not only has power over cosmic, magic, and divine power; they have power over emotion, reality, logic, senses, will, time.....EVERYTHING. (not comparable?)

*' you said thanos would become and absorb them? Back it up.

Show me Michael, Lucifer, or the two together actually taking all of creation within themselves by becoming one with it all. You can't. Because they just haven't done it. Together or apart. Lucifer didn't even do that in his own multiverse did he?

11: * yes they haven't done that...whats your point? i have already listed multiple of feats equal to or greater then HOTU..again. check #10.

You can't top that with a feat. And feats are how battles are won on CV.

12: Again plz just read #10.

@oblivionknight:At this point I am respectfully going to just agree to disagree. I appreciate your well-structured argument and reliance on actual plot points from the comics (vs a lot of hyperbole and outright exaggerations that @skyroid has been throwing around). I'm following you because you have been polite and informative.

13: if your gonna say that about me atleast have the decency to say which parts are "a lot of hyperbole and outright exaggerations". heres one about you, HOTU can absorb Michael and Lucifer an "outright exaggeration". you have not proven that he can do that and him being one with the universe and absorbing it doesn't prove that he can be one with the Lucifer or Michael

Note; have you heard of eternity? cause hes a universe and beings in him aren't all under his control.

PS. i noticed my impoliteness too, and for that i apologize, i had lot on my mind had an exam today and 3 more exams coming up.

But we just have different ideas on how HOTU works (basically giving TOAA's power) and the meaning of Thanos' feats with it (oneness). Michael/Lucifer wield their god's power in the same way as Thanos with HOTU (all of these combatants powers stem from their supreme creator). The Yaweh's Will/Creation seems to be a sticking point and I can't help but feel that most folks here are not giving HOTU/TOAA enough credit here.

14: i respect Thanos and Lucifer. their some of my 4 favorite characters in Marvel and DC. i have yet to actually say their more powerful then Hotu im merely countering the misinformation presented in the thread and stating their feats preformed.

I don't think you have commented on the LT. How do you think the multiversal LT ranks related to Lucifer and Michael?

15: im guessing this is stated to Oblivion? if so i apology for commenting on these sections. I absolutely don't not believe one rank in one company equals the other. in marvel vs dc crossover they put together Spectre and Lt as buddies which seems disrespectful to LT since LT can downright stomp Spectre (depending on version i guess)

Marvel

TOAA (beings like fulcrum,writers, guy who visited Peter parker are the same to me)

Pr Beyonder (non canon)

Pr MM (non canon)

HOTU ( by feat switch this with Beyonder)

Protege

LT

DC

Grant Morrison( writer)

Primal Monitor ( this u can ignore depending on your belief)

Presence (Yahweh, Source are just another forms of God)

Elaine (God when presence Leaves)

Synnar (or Michael depending on version u want to believe in)

Michael

Lucifer

TOAA is equal to only Grant M but above everyone else. Primal M is the the comic book itself the canvas. Presence/Elaine are equal to and below TOAA and Grant M.

Both teams are extremely impressive characters at the tops of their multiverses. We just disagree on how high the number 2 spots are in each multiverse.

I'm fine with that.

So, we are at an impasse. An amicable one, so often not seen here on the Vine. Lol.

Nice debating with you.