Silver Surfer vs WB Hulk

@atheistknowledge you are stubborn.

@ghostrider2: Oh look yet more travel speed and i guess moving in lines and leaving a blurr behind yourself = FTL combat speed. Thor travels at 2-3 times the speed of light = massive FTL combat speed. Well seeing as Hulk both leaves blurrs when he runs and jumps and has fought Thor equally and dodged him he also must be FTL, in fact Surfer got tagged by Thor, Hulk, Daredevil, Thing, Torch, Thanos, Black Panther, various X-men, Rhino, Strange, Doom, BRB, Cable, Super Skrull, Namor, Loki, Nova and many many more... Everyone is FTL... either that or all those dozens of dozens of cases of him getting tagged must be PIS... because that's how PIS works, whatever is the majority showing that is portrayed in poor light is PIS, not the other way around. Thor has 1 instance of microsecond reaction, everything beneath this is PIS... only those with microsecond reactions can tag him.

@atheistknowledge: lol.How the hell is that travel speed?

@ghostrider2: Flying in circles around someone is combat speed? The second scan is combat speed but simply leaving blurr lines behind you does not mean you are FTL or anywhere close to that, i have seen Wolverine, Spiderman and DD do the same so are they also FTL?

@atheistknowledge: of course it is even if the enemy can't move that fast.You are trying to get rid of it.

@ghostrider2: So if Thor flew in circles around Hulk using Mljonir that would mean he has superior combat speed to Hulk as in FTL combat speed? Brilliant... simply brilliant.

@atheistknowledge: lol.What must one do to be combat speed?

@ghostrider2: Fight at high speeds? I know it's a terribly complicated process to understand.

notice the difference between Flash running circles around Clark and SS flying in circles in your scan. Flash is both attacking and dodging Superman in this instances, SS is doing nothing but flying in a perfect circle around his enemy. Throwing punches, kicks, energy attacks, etc.. at high speeds as well as dodging them in combat is combat speed. Surfer flying in circles at FTL does not translate to him punching, kicking or using energy attacks at FTL as well as dodging all of those by simply moving his body, not just flying.

@atheistknowledge: i was sure you will bring that scan up.You are upset because Hulk cannot keep up with SS and you try to dismiss all SS speed scans.

SS also calculated and blasted a teleporter at the exact same moment he teleported.

@frozenphoenix: WB hulk destroy a planet in his collision against RSHulk, i think he has a good advantage if the battle comes to a close combat (hand to hand, brawl, mano a mano ect.), but if the battle keeps it on a good rage then SS may have a god chace, yet the battle would be decided in what field, and distance they have. WBH as having 24 prep has the advantage here, he would prep the stage and try to not destroy the planet in the process of fighting SS.

World Breaker Hulk would be the winner.

@ghostrider2: If you where sure then that means you know what combat speed is you just like to turn a blind eye when it comes to SS. Except for the fact that Hulk has kept up with SS many times, so i don't know what you are talking about. He even has 2 scans of keeping up with SS travel speed which is quite impressive. If SS combat speed is so great why has he lost to Thor every single time, even though Thor by his own admission is slower then someone like Wolverine and has street level characters dance around him and even had Tom Brevoort call him slow in comparison to them. But i guess it must be PIS even though they fought dozens of times and SS never EVER humbled Thor with his speed. There is a difference between debunking and dismissing something, what i did was the former.

@atheistknowledge: So Hulk has ftl speed now.If you read SS you would know he always holds back against Thor.And iirc Thor only beat him once.

SS also calculated and blasted a teleporter at the exact same moment he teleported.

Also blitzed Nova.But you keep dismissing.

@ghostrider2: I am just going by your logic, everyone is FTL. Always holds back against Thor? That's actually a flat out lie

here both of them are bloodlusted and SS states on panel he wont hold back yet he loses and get's knocked out. And now that we have determined that you not only construe things to fit your narrative but you also flat out lie we no longer need to continue this charade.

@atheistknowledge: SS beat cancerverse Thor who is equal i think to 616.SS beat Beta Ray Bill.So you stop lowballing him.Recently he fought Thor again, Thor headbutted...Thor was bleeding SS was fine.So...

@ghostrider2: What feats does cancerverse Thor have that equals him to 616 Thor? I have an actual comic of Thor beating a bloodlusted Surfer and you tell me SS once beat cancerverse Thor who might be equal to 616 Thor because some random character said so? Stop overrating him. Look another lie from you... SS was not fine from the headbut.

see the giant dent in his head... i even highlighted it for you in face you have trouble finding it. So another blatant lie from you and seriously is this the best you got? They headbutted each other and Thor's forehead was bleeding so that somehow means SS is superior?

You are really bad at this you know that right? LOL.

@atheistknowledge: it was a statement i think.

So?Do you see him bleeding?Do you see him screaming?No?The headbutt only made him more serious.

You started it.You said Thor beat SS many times.Please post the battles.

@tomofukuoka: This coming from the blatant troll that said Ms. Marvel wins against Hulk because she beat a skrull that looked like Hulk?

First scan you posted is of Namor using water to drown and weaken the Hulk, seeing as Hulk couldn't breath under water back then it's normal he would lose to someone who can if they fought underwater. - DEBUNKED.

Second scan is of Tony knocking out a weakened Hulk and in the process of doing so he exerted himself so much he fell into a coma himself. - DEBUNKED.

Superman vs Hulk fight which was a fanvote and there exists an actual scan of Hulk knocking out Superman, they prepared both and waited for which outcome the fans would vote so they would print. - DEBUNKED.

Next scan is of Rulk stabbing Hulk after he already lost and Hulk spared his life but Rulk used a cheap shot when Hulk let his guard down and speared him. After that Hulk beat Loeb force Rulk and recently beat and permanently depowered him again. - DEBUNKED

The last scan is the same as the second one, Tony knocked out a weakend Hulk and put himself in a coma in the process. - DEBUNKED.

But i gotta say you google searching "Hulk getting owned" and posting random scans without context that i can easily debunk is amusing. Still not as amusing as the time when you used Ms. Marvel beating a skrull as evidence that she can beat Hulk. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

@ghostrider2

Yes a statement from a random character(i think Doc Strange) but a statement is nothing more then a statement until proven otherwise. In the mean time real Thor has beaten SS several times and at least once both of them where not holding back.

I thought you where a SS fan, Surfer doesn't bleed. He doesn't have the same physiology as Thor and other humanoids like him. And what does screaming matter? Thor started screaming before he even headbutted SS, it was not a scream of pain but anger.

And you said SS always held back, which i debunked. Apart from the scan above there are these where Thor beat both SS and AW and Warlock had to grab SS still unconscious body and flee.

Gallery

Then there was that one time Thor was mortally wounded and he still had the upper hand against SS.

and another time where SS admits Thor held back against him while SS himself was amped by Loki in that fight.

Stop overrating SS.

@atheistknowledge: You are overrating Thor and Hulk and dismiss every SS speed feat.In fact every feat.And use spiderman logic on him lol.I also thought you knew what i meant by ''bleeding''.

Here SS almost killing the avengers.Coming straight from Thor's mouth.

@ghostrider2: I am not actually. I consider SS more powerful then Thor or Hulk. In a random encounter i say SS should win a majority, but only slightly because the difference between SS and Thor is not that big. Hulk however doesn't really have an answer to SS in a random encounter it was shown that SS can just revert him back to Banner whenever he wants. But in this thread we don't have normal Hulk vs SS in a random encounter it's WBH who has prepped with Banner for 24 hours, which definitely leads me to believe that they can beat SS. Again you are confusing dismissing something with debunking. And please don't throw accusations around i literally caught you in 2 blatant lies yet you continue on like nothing had happened.

Yet he didn't kill or even harm anyone even though both Iron Man and Cap where present there too and was hit by the warning shot and yet the blast did not harm them in any way, so if SS is so powerful that he could just slay Thor so easily why hasn't he at least knocked him out in their many fights? Just casually blast him away? It's just one instance that goes against the more consistent ones where SS and Thor went toe to toe with one another.

@atheistknowledge:how come that your scans are legit but ours are not?What lies?Everyone knows SS is a pacifist.

@ghostrider2: Isn't it the point of debating to go with what is more consistent? How does a warning shot from SS almost kill both Thor, Iron Man and Cap when all 3 of them have drastically different readabilities yet none of them where harmed? Why does a casual warning shot from SS almost kill Thor but SS never EVER managed to even knock out Thor in their fights? Even when SS stated himself he would not be holding back.

You said SS has always held back against Thor i showed you a scan of SS literally saying he wont hold back against Thor - is this not a lie?

You said SS was fine from his headbutt from Thor but having a big dent in your forehead is not what constitutes as fine. - is this also not a lie?

Yes SS is a natural pacifist but that does not mean he has always held back against everyone and that he was never EVER bloodlusted in his life.

The scans I posted were just some of the ones I thought showed combat superspeed clearly. Many people don't consider a character as having notable combat superspeed unless they can persistently use their speed in battle beyond just initial blitzing and dodging.

Getting "tagged" is a poor criteria for gauging the speed of the character getting "tagged". Is the character getting tagged even trying not to get tagged? Even characters who's primary power is superspeed, get tagged all the time in comics. Writers have to create interesting stories and interesting battles, having your protagonist dodge every attack and beat every opponent before they can react, would lose it's novelty real quick.

@atheistknowledge said:

@ghostrider2: Fight at high speeds? I know it's a terribly complicated process to understand.

notice the difference between Flash running circles around Clark and SS flying in circles in your scan. Flash is both attacking and dodging Superman in this instances, SS is doing nothing but flying in a perfect circle around his enemy. Throwing punches, kicks, energy attacks, etc.. at high speeds as well as dodging them in combat is combat speed. Surfer flying in circles at FTL does not translate to him punching, kicking or using energy attacks at FTL as well as dodging all of those by simply moving his body, not just flying.

Need I mention this is nu 52 Barry who is explicitly stated to not be faster than light?

And you seem to have a very specific idea of what reaction speed is. You seem to think that if the character is not twirling his arms on concentric circles really fast that he doesn't have super speed.

Travel speed. Moving at (insert level of speed) in a straight line without being able to react...to anything....at that speed.

Reaction speed. Same as above, but being able to react at that speed, and any number of combinations of the above. Reaction speed is not just limited to moving your arms around really fast.

The scan you questioned for example is of the Surfer moving around an opponent....faster than light....in a tight concentric circle. That IS a reaction feat. Surfer's searching the planet in a few seconds....is a reaction feat. Why? Obviously, he could not have searched an entire planet for one guy in a straight line. There are numerous other feats the character has performed at FTL speeds that are clearly not performed in a straight line>>>>called a reaction feat.

And not all feats need to explicitly show a character doing something specifically for people to reasonably draw a logical conclusion about what a given character can do. For example: Surfer is shown siphoning the gamma from Hulk in Incredible Hulk 250 and turning Hulk back into Banner. Logically, because Superman's power is derived from the sun, the Surfer could do the same to Superman.

Therefore, feats should be indicators of what a character is capable of doing.

WBH

@blackstaroblivion: The speed he was moving was irrelevant to me i almost used a scan with Wolverine and Daredevil but i used this one in the end because it was more similar, my point was to show what combat speed is, the speeds they where going was not important.

Travel speed is not just moving at a straight line, you can move in circles you can move in arches it isn't just a strictly straight line.

But i was not talking about reaction speed specifically, i was talking about combat speed. A handful of SS extreme reaction speeds is not consistent to his other showings. Despite what you think when SS searched the planet the writer was not trying to actually convey combat or reaction speed but travel speed.

The rest of your post is redundant.

Came into this thread and the animosity hit me like this...

@atheistknowledge: In that second scan that guy posted, SS is dodging those blasts (or exchanging blasts hard to tell) while moving at high speeds. Not just spinning in circles just because.

@darthaznable: I give you my captain obvious seal of approval.

Then why did you say it was just travel speed when it clearly wasn't?

@darthaznable: Where did i say the second scan was travel speed?

You said: "Oh look more travel speed" I just assumed you were talking about both scans since you never specified which. Granted I didn't read the full comment.

Bah I have no reason getting involved with characters I don't care about lol

Surfer LOLstomps any version of Hulk. This is spite.

WB Hulk is massively strong, but muscles are about as useful against the power cosmic as bug spray is against a 747.

The speed is indeed irrelevant for the sake of this discussion because Hulk has none to speak of while the Surfer is literally leagues ahead of Hulk in reaction speed.

One of the way NFL scouts test an athlete is with cone drills. They are not actively striking an opponent. However, the speed at which they can bounce back and forth in differing patterns is an indication that the player in question can get to an opponent at a certain speed....and hit him if need be. The logic is that if they can get there fast enough...they can indeed strike the opponent also.

I apply the same logic to comic book feats. The feat in question should reasonably support the notion that said character can indeed react at certain speeds. If the character can react, the character can also react offensively.

For you to insist otherwise....

Well...each to his own.

My question to you is why even comment in a discussion about the Hulk....who has no super speed at all?

I'm lost here....

And again: if a character can react at a certain speed, they can react offensively at a certain speed.

What pray tell are you basing this on? Give me some examples.

Do you know Ron Marz? Have you asked him personally what he was trying to convey in that feat?

The only thing we can go by is what the feat tells us about the Surfer.

Travel speed is exactly what it sounds like. Moving from point A to B without any effort to react (or otherwise engage someone offensively).

Do you really think that the people Surfer searched for were all facing up while the Surfer made one pass in a straight line?

People were asleep, on elevators, in their cars on their way to work, fishing, taking a shower, on the subway.....there were billions of people he searched for.

Obviously, it could not have taken place in a straight line. And he certainly did not know where everyone's location was in advance....he had to search for any human being he could find that was Rick Jones (Namor).

To make practical application of that feat in combat is logical. Not only did the Surfer react at unbelievable speeds to locate Namor, logically he would've been able to disperse an energy blast or strike someone simply by raising his arm and doing so.

You are mistaken.

No not really. Although, I am known for repeating myself to people to get my point across in no uncertain terms.

Surfer should win because of his immense power set. However, if they actually fight the Surfer would get owned. Hulk writers just won't let him lose.

Nah.. SS is still hype with a handful of actual showings of usable combat speed being actually leagues above anything normal.

Yes for me to insist that a character who has 2-3 feats of reacting to nanosecond - microsecond against half a century of him getting tagged and not reacting to everyone from street level to bricks/mid tiers to powerhouses who have no special speed themselves. No NFL analogies is gonna cut it here i am sorry.

You want me to list every time SS got tagged by Hulk, Thor, Thing, Rhino, Torch, Doom and many more.

Nah but i am sure you will tell me what he was trying to convey.

Travel speed is not just moving from A to B, traveling doesn't have to have a destination you can literally travel in circles.

Great he has a high end PIS feat most characters get every once in a while and i say PIS because someone who can search every nook and cranny of the entire planet in mere seconds should literally perceive almost everyone as statues and he certainly wouldn't have his ass handed to him by Slowdison.

If you can't get your point across the first time then there is something wrong with your point and i will let you in on a little secret about it... it's not a good point.

@luda12331 Despite the fact that Hulk has lost to Surfer every single time, even when written by "Hulk writers".

@blackstaroblivion: So after all that no reason was given, no actual evidence just petty excuses and pointless drivel from someone that went from 0 to butthurt real fast. And no Zoom or Flash or anyone else getting tagged by much slower opponents is not the more consistent thing compared to their times they blitzed or dodged someone.

You aren't....superimposing you're own feelings on me right now are you?

Huh.

These scans below pretty much epitomize a Surfer/Hulk fight:

Gallery

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I love how a Bannerless Hulk does his worst to hurt the Surfer....

To no avail. Hmm. What a shame.

Doesn't make a good case for this thread, now does it?

Heck, the second scan from the left even shows Surfer didn't even try to get away from ole' jade skin. Hulk even stomps on Surfer's head and Surfer's like, "Dude, your're like, messing with my Zen thing, srsly?".

I'd say my evidence is pretty clear.

Oh, please. What did you go through each scan from each character and do a pie chart percentage comparison?

They've been tagged plenty of times by far slower characters. But those are no more legitimate than Surfer being tagged by slower characters.

Its called P I S.

Here's another one. You might even be familiar with it:

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So....even equalizing speed.....Hulk gets destroyed by the Surfer.

Is there anything else?

Great.

@blackstaroblivion: You do realize that first scan shows a bannerless hulk..not WBH.....so you can't use that as a real reliable feat....since the level of power from both incarnations of hulks is severely different. As for the other one with the Hulk getting drained...surfer had a power boost from Banner's device, it's even said by Norrin himself. He had an amp going, and was hungry for the Hulk's physical strength. So really, reposting the draining scan was pointless...just saying.

Surfer

SS

Surfer

Based on what evidence?

The Surfer being powered up with the gamma ray infuser he created from Banner's mind has NADA to do with the Surfer's ability to DRAIN.

There is a difference between being infused with power....and then draining someone of their power as well. One has nothing to do with the other

And the first time Banner confronted the Surfer in that issue, the Surfer easily drained him, in fact, CURED HIM, with no power up:

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So what makes you think that made any difference in the scan I showed?

@blackstaroblivion: That first fight right there, is a recently transformed hulk, not reaching his usual high levels of anger since he just changed. Also, WBH has higher level strength feats than the bannerless Hulk. The difference in the scans posted was the fact that both scans detail two entirely different incarnations, who's power level are on different levels. Just because he was able to drain these two versions of the Hulk, doesn't mean hypothetically he could do it to WBH, who boasts intense levels of gamma rays, being released by him bottling as much of it up as possible. Again, just saying...

Doesn't make any difference. At this point the burden of proof would be on you to clearly demonstrate the Surfer could not drain...ANY...version of the Hulk.

He actually has better feats for draining than that:

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Prove it.

Show me the scans that clearly indicate the different energy levels between the versions of the Hulk being discussed AND then you would have to prove that THAT is beyond the Surfer's ability to drain.

@blackstaroblivion: Well said.

Until otherwise proven, Silver Surfer still wins this easily via draining.

@blackstaroblivion: I never did say he couldn't be drained, but I did say that there are two completely different versions of the Hulk being applied, to a Hulk of entirely different stats.I'm still waiting on whether your going to counter Banner's prep. As for him being on another level, it's stated on the vine itself, I would expect you to know that....again..just saying...

As of now SS wins, but maybe things will change once Maestro and Surfer duke it out in Battleworld #4.