@laflux said:
@jedixman said:
... my God.
That's it. I'm not posting in Watchmen battles anymore. This is ridiculous.
Yup. Seems to be the case. The Manhattan Effect is running at top speed in this thread.
@fimftw said:
@thedckid said:
@jashro44: As soon as SS arrives Doc Manhattan could just teleport him to a black hole
Not like Silver Surfer can control black holes or anything...
And Surfer most likely wins by simply absorbing Manhattan into the board since he doesn't have the speed feats to react.
Manhattan cannot be defeated like this....simply put there is no way too trap Manhattan.
Reasons why:
1. Manhattan put himself back together after being completely wiped out. Body, Cells, Everything.
2. Manhattan is durable enough to withstand walking on the surface of the Sun.
3. Why Manhattan cannot be trapped? Manhattan has Teleportation and Duplication abilities. If he wished he can simply wipe himself out from existence and then reform anywhere he wants.
4. Why draining Manhattan fails. Because Manhattan is Immortal. Killing or Stopping one of Manhattans bodies does little to nothing. He can just reform anywhere he wants and be back at full power. The only way Surfer can drain him completely is if the Surfer has the power to completely drain the Quantum Universe.
5. List of Manhattans known powers: Adaptive,Agility,Blast Power,Chameleon,Cosmic Awareness,Density Control,Duplication,Energy Manipulation,Force Field, Gadgets, Healing, Immortal, Intellect, Invulnerability, Levitation, Longevity, Phasing / Ghost, Postcognition, Precognition, Psionic, Psychic, Size Manipulation, Stamina, Super Strength, Telekinesis, Teleport, Unarmed Combat
http://www.comicvine.com/dr-manhattan/4005-40527/
Sense Manhattan is linked to the Quantum Universe he can do anything that the Quantum world says is possible in our universe. And we all know the Quantum world is weird. Manhattan pretty much has control over almost everything.
Last thing to say: Just because Manhattan cannot be killed and can pretty much do whatever he wants with slight restrictions due to the Watchmen Universe. Manhattan isnt all powerful. He even says so himself. The only thing I saw was a lack of destructive force. Which he needs to defeat the Surfer.
So the question is who wins between Surfer and Manhattan? Answer is Draw. Surfer cannot put Manhattan down EVER! Manhattan is Immortal!!!! Surfer cannot trap Manhattan because of teleportation and reconstructing his body. Manhattan also has duplication powers. Meaning: Manhattan existence and lives EVERY moment of his life! That means Manhattan 1000 years into the future is living and seeing what he did 1000 years in the past. Which is weird. The only way to kill Manhattan would be saying Surfer can Destroy Quantum Universe. Bascially Surfer would have to kill every Manhattan in every time frame he exists.
Sounds too powerful but its true. So why cant Manhattan take down Surfer? Well he probably can but I have no prove of Manhattans destructive force. So its possible Manhattan could do no damage to the Surfer at all.
Answer is DRAW! If anybody says otherwise well they dont know Manhattan.
Actually, I know Manhattan very well, and I would not claim a draw. Manhattan has nothing in his showings that would place his benchmarks anywhere near Surfer's level.
So, a few key points of contention with your statements bud:
"1. Manhattan put himself back together after being completely wiped out. Body, Cells, Everything."
He put himself back together after removal of his intrinsic field. That is it. The glue that holds stuff together in the Watchmen U was removed, and he basically glued himself back together. You can't prove he would be that successful against attacks that do not involve intrinsic field removal, because there is no data in the series to prove otherwise.
"2. Manhattan is durable enough to withstand walking on the surface of the Sun."
And Manhattan can phase, can hover, and could very well replicate walking across the surface of the sun in a manner that does not involve durability in the slightest. Without actually seeing how he accomplished this, it is hard to truly take his words as a durability feat.
"3. Why Manhattan cannot be trapped? Manhattan has Teleportation and Duplication abilities. If he wished he can simply wipe himself out from existence and then reform anywhere he wants."
The teleporting and duplicating bit, I have no issue with. The wiping himself from existence and reforming anywhere he wants...that is stretching things a bit. He has never been completely wiped from existence, as even with the removal of his intrinsic field, there was an electromagnetic pattern left that resembled consciousness left over (discussed in the Watchmen books), and both times he has pieced himself back together, it was within the vicinity of where his body had the intrinsic field removed. Not to mention the fact that the process of intrinsic field removal was portrayed as being fairly painful each time...I am not so sure that it would be on his list of tactics. Now, if trapped in the board, he might be able to teleport himself out, but I am not sure if Surfer has ever captured a teleporter before and held them. If so, I would say Manhattan has a fair chance at being trapped.
"4. Why draining Manhattan fails. Because Manhattan is Immortal. Killing or Stopping one of Manhattans bodies does little to nothing. He can just reform anywhere he wants and be back at full power. The only way Surfer can drain him completely is if the Surfer has the power to completely drain the Quantum Universe."
Again, you are adding attributes and abilities to Manhattan that are unproven. Manhattans physical form can be destroyed. What is left over is electromagnetic energy that could feasibly be drained. Your whole idea of needing to drain a quantum universe is unproven and unfounded. Again, he has only ever reformed after the removal of his intrinsic field. That is it, and you cannot prove he can reform otherwise, since the proof just does not exist.
"5. List of Manhattans known powers: Adaptive,Agility,Blast Power,Chameleon,Cosmic Awareness,Density Control,Duplication,Energy Manipulation,Force Field, Gadgets, Healing, Immortal, Intellect, Invulnerability, Levitation, Longevity, Phasing / Ghost, Postcognition, Precognition, Psionic, Psychic, Size Manipulation, Stamina, Super Strength, Telekinesis, Teleport, Unarmed Combat"
He has not shown anywhere near all of those abilities. Let's see...adaptive? Sure, he showed he can survive on Mars. Agility? Never once. Chameleon? Really? When did he do this? Cosmic Awareness? Nope. He can see things on an atomic level, that does not give him cosmic awareness in the slightest. Energy Manipulation? Hmmm...he had little bits of electricity form from his fingers, and he might have shot a heat ray to melt the turret of a tank. Not really much to go off of there, but sure, he has displayed some of this. Force field? No, he created an enviromental field around Laurie that allowed her to survive on Mars...we don't know that it would act as a true forcefield otherwise. Healing? He pulled himself back together after removal of his intrinsic field...if we want to call that healing...then sure. Immortal? Unproven. Invulnerability? Unproven. See my discussions on his intrinsic field.
Postcognition/precognition? Alright, he was not a postcog/precog. He lived/was aware of all events in his life since transformation, and was a time traveler along his own timeline. He didn't simply just see the future, and the ability is useless regardless, as shown in Before Watchmen. Besides the fact that series points to him losing this ability thanks to Ozy. Psionic/psychic? If you want to stretch it, he teleported all of those people to their homes, but has never been shown to read minds, nor has he shown any form of telepathy, empathy, so on. Now, if you want to include his telekinesis, or using the his powers to pop some humans, then sure, I guess, the psionic bit could be included. Stamina...not shown. Unarmed combat...what? Never shown in the series.
The point is, you can't just pull from various pages and throw that out as proof, since just about anyone can go in and change that intel. Here is a pretty good breakdown of what he has been shown to do: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/wyldsong/blog/dr-manhattan-the-truth-behind-the-feats-aka-why-so/61001/
"Sense Manhattan is linked to the Quantum Universe he can do anything that the Quantum world says is possible in our universe. And we all know the Quantum world is weird. Manhattan pretty much has control over almost everything."
No, he cannot just do whatever he wants. You can't prove that. Even being the quantum observer (which the series points to him losing this aspect), he realized he couldn't just do anything he wanted. His trying to do whatever he wanted brought about an end to things in Before Watchmen, and the only way he could fix things was by restricting himself, and not doing whatever he wanted. Saying he can do whatever he wants is pure speculation on your part, unfounded, and unproven...especially when the series seems to point to the counter of this.
"Meaning: Manhattan existence and lives EVERY moment of his life! That means Manhattan 1000 years into the future is living and seeing what he did 1000 years in the past. Which is weird. The only way to kill Manhattan would be saying Surfer can Destroy Quantum Universe. Bascially Surfer would have to kill every Manhattan in every time frame he exists."
Again, the end of the series points to him losing this aspect. It's all in the blog, but even if he had the ability still, there is one timeline with Manhattan -- when he loses control and things turns to multiple timelines, things don't end well -- there is a reason he restricts himself. He can travel that timeline, but cannot change things, as he loses control. That was pretty much the whole point of the Before Watchmen series -- he could not control that aspect of himself when he chose to do what he wants. He had to change his decisions in the altered timelines to bring everything back to one timeline. It gives us the reason for the reserved character that stated he was just a puppet who could see the strings in the original Watchmen series. He exists in one timeframe because he has no choice but to -- he loses control of things otherwise. But again, at the end of Before Watchmen, after he creates the blue goop, he states he cannot wait to see what this box contains...meaning he doesn't already know, pointing to the idea that the ability is indeed gone.
You are adding a lot to the idea of Manhattan that is conjecture, and that there is little proof for. Surfer has a lot of options here. He has been shown to alter the genetic structure of others -- taking away their powers, telepathy and being able to channel the power cosmic through it for attacking purposes, matter and energy manipulation (he could destroy Manhattan's body and drain what's left), planet wide feats and so on.
.VS.
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