Thor has defeated SS more time than I could count. Isn't arguable that both Majestic and J'onn are equals to Supes who is also "more stronger" than Thor?
Majestic is really powerful, but without prep and assuming he's not Universal, I don't see what he could do to stop Surfer's matter manipulation. J'onn might be able to win with TP, but that's a sketchy plan at best going up against Surfer. I want to say team 2 should take it, but bloodlusted Surfer is scary.
@Killemall: He looked pretty even with Surfer in one of the issues of the Mighty Thor. (Can't remember which one.)
I know, thats what always happens when Surfer and Thor fight. Thor has only beaten surfer once, during Blood and Thunder when he has an ambiguous boost because he was bloodlusted.
That why i was surprised to hear people say "Thor has beaten Surfer more times than i can count", assuming 1 isnt such a huge number to count :p
@Killemall: During Blood and Thunder he defeated SS in all their encounters, that were more than a few times idk how many exactly. He defeated SS in other fight I don't remember where it was, I'm sure that it wasn't on a Thor series and also Imo he defeated SS in one of their last encounter when Norrin was after the seed of Asgard. So I've seen a lot of their encounters with Thor emerging as the victor.
@Killemall: During Blood and Thunder he defeated SS in all their encounters, that were more than a few times idk how many exactly.
You are making it sound like they fought like 100 times? They fought twice, one with a bloodlusted Thor vs Silver Surfer, and the other instance he had power gem, the gem that give you a massive massive boost.
He defeated SS in other fight I don't remember where it was,
You actual words were "Thor has defeated SS more time than I could count" , so come on there has to be more instance apart from that "one" in Blood and Thunder, even if we count the second instance with a power gem i dearly hope 2 isnt "more than you can count".
SS in one of their last encounter when Norrin was after the seed of Asgard. So I
The battle stopped when both Galactus and Odin fell on the ground, not even sure how that counts as a victory for Thor.
So I've seen a lot of their encounters with Thor emerging as the victor.
Apart from Blood and Thunder you havent named any. Nada.
@Killemall: My mistake, saying he defeated SS "more times than I could count" was a exaggeration from my part, but I think that Thor has won in almost in all their encounters and even those fights that didn't end like the one that stopped when Odin and Galan fell on the ground, in my eyes Thor was getting the better of the fight(although I admit SS wasn't giving his all)
@Killemall: My mistake, saying he defeated SS "more times than I could count" was a exaggeration from my part, but I think that Thor has won in almost in all their encounters and even those fights that didn't end like the one that stopped when Odin and Galan fell on the ground, in my eyes Thor was getting the better of the fight(although I admit SS wasn't giving his all)
Fair enough, i apologise if i was harsh.
And no Thor has only officially beaten Silver Surfer during Blood and Thunder, Surfer got the better of Thor in the first fight they had but Surfer was amped by Loki, Surfer beat Thor in both the non-canon encounter they had but had context involved, and every other fight has been no result.
@Killemall: He looked pretty even with Surfer in one of the issues of the Mighty Thor. (Can't remember which one.)
I know, thats what always happens when Surfer and Thor fight. Thor has only beaten surfer once, during Blood and Thunder when he has an ambiguous boost because he was bloodlusted.
That why i was surprised to hear people say "Thor has beaten Surfer more times than i can count", assuming 1 isnt such a huge number to count :p
The team should win this. Majestic and Martian Manhunter are two of the most powerful bricks in existence. Together they should be able to bring Surfer down.
As for the thread, i honestly thing either of them on their own, have good enough odds of beating Surfer morals on or otherwise.
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Secondly, Surfer cant really counter Martian Manhunter's telepathy, and the biggest thing going on Surfer's favor is matter manipulation. Martian has a way to handle all other powers, Martian Manhunter is actually faster than the two in a pure combat sense.
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Secondly, Surfer cant really counter Martian Manhunter's telepathy, and the biggest thing going on Surfer's favor is matter manipulation. Martian has a way to handle all other powers, Martian Manhunter is actually faster than the two in a pure combat sense.
Wait really? I just spent the last like two weeks arguing with dudes that Wally is faster than Surfer and they wouldn't budge. What makes MMH faster than him?
Wait really? I just spent the last like two weeks arguing with dudes that Wally is faster than Surfer and they wouldn't budge. What makes MMH faster than him?
The same thing that makes pretty much Wally faster than Surfer, his lack of feats. Surfer can travel at amazing speed, which is good, but in order to go above light speed he has to go through hyperspace, a speed virtually useless in a fight. Now any other feats you see, Surfer has 2 counts of nanosecond reaction time, and thats about it. None of them instance where used in a battle. As such Surfer has very little claim of a better combat speed than someone like say Superman who himself has a nanosecond showing of reaction time, and has multiple instance of actually using Superspeed in a battle, Surfer hasnt used it once.
Martian Manhunter has shown he can blitz White Martians the same White Martians that blitz Justice League, Superman included. Has match a bloodlusted Wally on joker venom, i see no reason to believe Surfer is faster than Martian Manhunter, and i can assure you at least until November 2011 i have read virtually ever issue with Silver Surfer in it.
@Killemall: he is morals off, i really doubt he would let martian mess with his head i don't say he is the better telepath but he will kick martian out from his head.He knows telepathy too after all.
Martian Manhunter has shown he can blitz White Martians the same White Martians that blitz Justice League, Superman included. Has match a bloodlusted Wally on joker venom
OOPS!, well still a much better reaction feat that what Surfer has shown in a combat :)
@GhostRider2 said:
@Killemall: he is morals off, i really doubt he would let martian mess with his head i don't say he is the better telepath but he will kick martian out from his head.He knows telepathy too after all.
He could likely fight it off, but Martian Manhunter has beaten telepaths before, not too sure why it would be any different between them and Surfer. The real power that surfer has which Martian would really struggle against would be Matter Manipulation, and thats about it.
Surfer can travel at amazing speed, which is good, but in order to go above light speed he has to go through hyperspace, a speed virtually useless in a fight. Now any other feats you see, Surfer has 2 counts of nanosecond reaction time, and thats about it. None of them instance where used in a battle.
Surfer can travel at amazing speed, which is good, but in order to go above light speed he has to go through hyperspace, a speed virtually useless in a fight. Now any other feats you see, Surfer has 2 counts of nanosecond reaction time, and thats about it. None of them instance where used in a battle.
I am a bit confused, are you agreeing with me :p or whats happening?
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Secondly, Surfer cant really counter Martian Manhunter's telepathy, and the biggest thing going on Surfer's favor is matter manipulation. Martian has a way to handle all other powers, Martian Manhunter is actually faster than the two in a pure combat sense.
Wait really? I just spent the last like two weeks arguing with dudes that Wally is faster than Surfer and they wouldn't budge. What makes MMH faster than him?
"I can fly near the speed of light! You're a fool Skrull!"
I really like Surfer, but I do admit he is rather overrated when it comes to his speed. I'm not sure about J'onn's speed level, but Norrin is nowhere near Wally.
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Secondly, Surfer cant really counter Martian Manhunter's telepathy, and the biggest thing going on Surfer's favor is matter manipulation. Martian has a way to handle all other powers, Martian Manhunter is actually faster than the two in a pure combat sense.
Wait really? I just spent the last like two weeks arguing with dudes that Wally is faster than Surfer and they wouldn't budge. What makes MMH faster than him?
"I can fly near the speed of light! You're a fool Skrull!"
I really like Surfer, but I do admit he is rather overrated when it comes to his speed. I'm not sure about J'onn's speed level, but Norrin is nowhere near Wally.
Man where were you guys when I was wasting my time in the Surfer vs Wally and Superman thread. Dude convinced me that Hyperspace was just a catchphrase they used and took away to explain how Surfer goes so fast and that stuff like his gauntlet grab or all his other space feats count as combat and reaction speed. BLEH.
@GhostRider2 said:
@tomlikesfries: SS beats him in a race put both of them to ''universe race'' and lets give Wally a road like in the cartoon :).
Man where were you guys when I was wasting my time in the Surfer vs Wally and Superman thread. Dude convinced me that Hyperspace was just a catchphrase they used and took away to explain how Surfer goes so fast and that stuff like his gauntlet grab or all his other space feats count as combat and reaction speed. BLEH.
Most of those are actually accurate. Surfer can and has traveled many times faster than light, Infinity Gauntlet is a good example. The distance was stated to be a little under light year, even bio solidifies that. Surfer did in fact cover that instance in a short period of time, while the exact time was not mentioned it certainly couldnt have been more than few mins. Surfer did in fact try to grab the gauntlet, but i dont take that as a great reaction feat, given Thanos noticed surfer, dodged him and surfer couldnt move around and take the gauntlet before Thanos could move.
Hyperspace was in fact later introduced as a concept on how marvel character travel, it should not take away the travel speed they achieve, but i fail to see how that has anything to do with reaction speed. Surfer isnt the fastest of guy in terms of reaction. His reaction speed is nanosecond second, much like Superman but thats about it.
Surfer has never, ever really fought as a bloodlusted character in 616, he does not have the personality of Punisher, Thor or Bane.... the Surfer is usually holding himself back. Even when Loki set Surfer on Thor the Asgardians admitted Surfer was holding back. "just a warning"...."he did not mean us harm"...Most readers believe the outcome has been left uncertain in fights like these....Cap Marvel vs Wonder Woman, Surfer vs Thor, Superman vs Flash, Thor vs Hulk etc because it adds to the hype, it adds to the fan debates and will have more people buying comics forever
What we know about Surfer
He is many times faster than Thor, Surfer has feats traveling multiple speeds of light without hyperspace, he has reacted in nanoseconds, went from Broxton/Asgard/Oklahoma to NYC while Danny was saying "um hello", has traveled across solar systems and galaxies in seconds
Thor's hammer may be more powerful than Surfer but Surfer still has battle feats very close to Mjollnir's power,
Surfer is still lethal without his board, he can fly without his board, phase without his board, bust planets without his board, Thor is not so deadly without the hammer
Surfer fights beyond physical levels, he was able to beat an unkillable being, the Prince of Orphans by morphing himself into an alien, eating the Orphans soul and spitting him into a volcano
The Silver Surfer is more durable than Thor, more durable than Superman, more durable than Manhunter, more durable than Majestic
Silver Surfer can also multi task attacking on two fronts while using his board as a weapon to bullet into an enemy
He can disassemble objects, creatures, people etc and was fast enough to blitz a planet killing spaceship, take over its systems, and throw the ship into a BFR beyond Saturn for hundreds of years
The Silver Surfer should have won fights against Thor but Marvel writes Surfer with CIS, pacifism is part of his character
I don't. The best thing MM has going for him is his phasing and telepathy. Both can be countered by Surfer. Not to mention Surfer has cosmic awareness which will instantly tell him how to beat these two.
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Secondly, Surfer cant really counter Martian Manhunter's telepathy, and the biggest thing going on Surfer's favor is matter manipulation. Martian has a way to handle all other powers, Martian Manhunter is actually faster than the two in a pure combat sense.
That's exactly how Surfer's cosmic awareness works. When he went up against Gladiator, it instantly told him what type of radiation Gladiator was weak against.
That's exactly how Surfer's cosmic awareness works. When he went up against Gladiator, it instantly told him what type of radiation Gladiator was weak against.
Lets repost my previous post :)
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Thats what Martian's weakness is pyschological, planeted deep inside their mind by the Guardians. Its not physical and it has nothing to do with environment and whats around them.
Surfer figuring Superman is vulnerable to kryptonite is expected, Surfer figuring Martian is vulnerable to fire, not so much.
And Surfer's TP is more than enough to fight MM.
I dont agree. He TP is planetary level, but has gone down to TP way too many times.
That's exactly how Surfer's cosmic awareness works. When he went up against Gladiator, it instantly told him what type of radiation Gladiator was weak against.
Lets repost my previous post :)
Thats actually not how cosmic awareness works. Cosmic awareness gives you the knowledge of the environment, its not going to give you a detail of a psychological weakness embedded deep in someone's mind.
Thats what Martian's weakness is pyschological, planeted deep inside their mind by the Guardians. Its not physical and it has nothing to do with environment and whats around them.
Surfer figuring Superman is vulnerable to kryptonite is expected, Surfer figuring Martian is vulnerable to fire, not so much.
And Surfer's TP is more than enough to fight MM.
I dont agree. He TP is planetary level, but has gone down to TP way too many times.
We will have to agree to disagree. Cosmic Awareness simply makes him aware of his foe's weaknesses. And even though Martian's weakness may be psychological, Fire still hurts MM which means it is indeed a physical weakness. He wouldn't have to dig into anyone's mind to find it either. CA is more like an extra sense.
We will have to agree to disagree. Cosmic Awareness simply makes him aware of his foe's weaknesses. And even though Martian's weakness may be psychological, Fire still hurts MM which means it is indeed a physical weakness. He wouldn't have to dig into anyone's mind to find it either. CA is more like an extra sense.
No it doesnt.
Here's some description of how Silver Surfer's power works from various handbook i have
Marvel handbook 1986
As you can see its a very old handbook so the print looks terrible. Here it says ".... has certain cosmic energy enchanced perceptions which enable him through concentration to becomes away of the patter of energy which surround him".
Marvel Encyclopedia 2001
A bit more recent so scan look a bit better. It explains "Cosmic awareness, allowing the Surfer to feel energy at work around him".
Like you can see it has never been about pin pointing someone's vulnerability but being away of the environment and energies around him to locate someone's vulnerability.
Those are the only 2 handbook that i can find which explains how cosmic awareness of Surfer works.
And no fire doesnt actually hurt Martian Manhunter physically, in fact during JLA: Trails by Fire, when Martian Manhunter went Fernus and turned off his telepathy, he was no longer affected by fire at all.
@Killemall None of that has anything to do with how he knew about Kallark's weakness. There was no concentrating and there was no energy around to feel. Obviously there are different and newer aspects of cosmic awareness that we have seen since those handbook's were released. And quite simply, Marvel handbook's that are that old do not take precedence over newer and more updated comics. In fact On panel evidence all together > Marvel Handbooks no matter how old or new the handbook is. He's also been able to sense armadas of beings coming to attack him and he was able to sense specific races and specific powers of those being that were coming. None of his CA feats show him or even have narration about the Surfer using great concentration.
And I remember a comic where MM was disintegrated by fire.
@jeanroygrant: Surfer's got no answer for the Martian's telepathy. From what I gather, his feats insofar as resisting it are iffy. Not to mention that J'onn has more feats of high combat speed than Surfer. If Surfer does beat J'onn, it's in the bout of his life.
I still maintain Martian Manhunter has just a good enough chance to win, let alone get stomped.
He is faster in combat, has similar physical ability, the only ream problem is matter manipulation from surfer, and telepathy from Martian.
@Charlie_Jade said:
He's not the greatest telepath of all time but has enough feats to be called one of the most powerful telepaths in Marvel 616
How on earth is Silver Surfer the greatest telepathy in Marvel when most of his handbook point to him having minor telepathy. None of his feats are above planetary level and has been on the receiving end of telepathy multiple times.
There are telepath of far greater order, one being Thanos, other being Xavier, Legion, X-man there are so many others.
Surfer has resisted abstracts, he resisted Moondragon (she's Xavier levels)
at the time Moondragon was backed by the mindgem....INFINITE telepathic powers
She also failed to TP Thor, with the so called infinite telepathy she couldnt even read Thanos mind and the reason to why was well explained by Thanos "Of course, I am Thanos".
Also when on earth did surfer resist an abstract, i remember smaller bodies of The Other one shot him with telepathy.
Also mind gem give you infinite telepathy if you tap into it properly. hard to say she had infinite telepathy when she is being mind controlled by The Goddess wouldnt you think? Not to mention the first thing Moondragon said after getting the gem was, it would enchance her telekenisis, and frankly that blast looked like one of telekinetic nature.
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