@killemall: I really don't want to start this debate with you again, but I simply want an answer tot his question if you have one. Why wouldn't Darkseid be able to beat surfer by just beating him almost to death? Like Thanos did? Thanos and Darkseid have equal strength just about, and even if you want to disagree with that for some reason they are both stronger than surfer. Why couldn't Darkseid just beat him with fists?
If marvel bought DarkSeid he would be recognized as a midteir cosmic. Similar to the Stranger.
to be honest.....Marvel would be much better for a lot of powerful DC characters like Darkseid, imagine how OP Marvel would make Brainiac...he'd be Doom level or higher. Marvel does better for their characters as of late.
@injusticeforall: In some ways he is. Strength and durability for example.
You could argue strength (and be wrong) but durability is out the window. Superman took him out pretty easily. A character that wouldn't put a dent to Thanos.
@rudebomberboy01: killemall is currently in a cav with Darkseid. He of all people should know how close their power levels are.
I honestly dont see how he is more powerful to be honestly.. but lets see :)
Darkseid's feats outweigh Surfer's, an instance that does not get talked about much is the non-canon crossover, granted it's non-canon but in that crossover Darkseid one-shotted Surfer, and you may not agree with Darkseid/Thanos comparisons but the same comparison was made in the canon JLA/Avengers, he has torn apart Anti-Monitor with Omega Force, hurt Spectre (and reformed instantly after an energy blast from him), help crack apart Imperix, etc.
@killemall: By the same token of Thanos beating down Surfer, Jack of Hearts hurt Thanos, Thor and Thing were physically making him work until he used energy blasts, he struggled with fodder, etc. Dan Jurgens thinks Superman = H/P Doomsday (general consensus is that is hyperbole), so very much Superman beating Darkseid is PIS.
The new Darkseid is actually a lot more powerful, Superman attributed him to being the only being that he has faced that could have destroyed Earth 3 Universe (actual reveal was Anti-Monitor but regardless) which puts him above H'el, Zod, etc.
Since you used the non-canon Red Glass on another thread, allow me to use the non-canon Darkseid vs Galactus: The Hunger, it was not fan-voted but it accurately represented a meeting between Darkseid/Galactus/Surfer (it's not Amalgam either).
Darkseid one-shots Surfer after he had just shrugged off a blast from a hungry Galactus.
John Byrne attributed the crossover to take place in a universe with both DC and Marvel co-exist.
@jayc1324: I give Thanos the nod over DarkSeid mostly because he can't actually be killed and he is the Avatar of Death.
But I believe over all they are sort of the same.
If you take away the pussy whipped by Death aspect Thanos would be more like Pre-Crisis Mongul in abilities and both versions in motivation. Wanting straight forward power, they would be more human in there motivations.
Darkseid is for all intensive purposes an aspect of tyranny,enslavement, his motivation would see that there is no will but his own.
He is also multiversal, the new gods project themselves into universes, they don't truly exist within them, the 4th world is a higher plane of existence. Libra was the first mortal to ever truly travel there and to do so he needed to become one with the universe becoming a new god.
Though I already posted Darkseid feats on the CAV, and that Surfer was only a match for Cyborg Superman in the canon crossover (whereas Darkseid stomped Hank), New-52 should also win.
@pperspectiveandreality: Technically no, the entire Earth 3 Universe was destroyed and Darkseid was attributed to doing that, but he didn't actually do it....the actual reveal was:
Okay well then we'll see soon. It feels like very few DC characters have actually been able to destroy a planet on panel. I hope they change that in the new 52. Darkseid done it once to my knowledge but he should be far beyond just one planet IMO. So hopefully you're right about the earth 3 universe
@jagernutt: Yes I know. And Darkseid destroys planets as well and is in his power range. To say Thanos is on a whole different level than Darkseid is just insane.
The first feat i still disagree with because not a single source calls it omega force apart from you, the second at best is superficial damage and third you have no way of saying how much Darkseid help, specially given the one hitting Imperix together was a godly amped Superman (who himself has humilated Darkseid 3 times now)
Not to mention that was ages ago.
More recent potrayal of Darkseid.
Superman outright reflects omega beam with his eye beam himself, whats stopping Surfer from doing that.
And other various instances of Superman, Doomsday, Mary Marvel, Jimmy Olsen, tanking it just fine.
That also brings us to , what stopping Surfer from simply absorbing his omega beam or manipulating the omega beam themselves
Silver Surfer Vol 3 # 103: Taking attack from enimes, absorbing it, and empowering himself with it and using that to heal a dying sun
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Whats stopping Surfer from outright taking away Darkseid's powers?
He's done it to Sympira (Silver Surfer # 0.5)
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He's done it against Sakaar and his old strong powers
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Heck i could go on and on about matter manipulation, astral plane, trapping him in his board etc etc.
Even if you want to argue raw power, how does he deal with Surfer's versatility.
@killemall: By the same token of Thanos beating down Surfer, Jack of Hearts hurt Thanos
Hurt Thanos at best superficially, and went on to get stomp.
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Thanos barely showing a reaction and stomping a guy is same as Darkseid being outright defeated by Superman?
Come on..
Thor and Thing were physically making him work until he used energy blasts
Again Thanos was weaker back than.
One panel evidence of Thanos being empowered by Death upon resurrection.
And bio confirmation of the same
And Thanos even then rather handily wins the confrontation.
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And this is what he had to say about how much effect their combined attack had on him.
So if Thanos outright defeating Thing and Thor together is someone just the same as Darkseid being defeated by Superman and Orion in your opinion then we cant agree on a lot things.
Dan Jurgens thinks Superman = H/P Doomsday (general consensus is that is hyperbole)
You do realise hyperboles is stuffs backed by no action right?
Superman fought H/P Doomsday after he was taken over temporarily by Braniac for 2 entire issues, and these were not normal size issues either.
Here are the scans.
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So the 30 odds scans of him fighting Doomsday is all talk and doesnt count as action?
I think we subscribe to a very different meaning of hyperbole.
The new Darkseid is actually a lot more powerful, Superman attributed him to being the only being that he has faced that could have destroyed Earth 3 Universe (actual reveal was Anti-Monitor but regardless) which puts him above H'el, Zod, etc.
No he doesnt attribute him as destroying the universe but rather the planet (world)
Its not like destroying a planet is any biggie for Surfer, heck Surfer himself was turned into a core of a planet and he destroyed it with ease.
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Thats not even the only time Surfer has destroyed a planet, off the top of my head there are 2 more instances i can quote.
Since you used the non-canon Red Glass on another thread, allow me to use the non-canon Darkseid vs Galactus: The Hunger, it was not fan-voted but it accurately represented a meeting between Darkseid/Galactus/Surfer (it's not Amalgam either).
I used the non canon showing alongside canon showing of Superman defeating Darkseid.
Even then thats a weaker, Surfer with morals on, attacked from behind, after he defeated Orion, then got attacked by Galactus , them had his memories wiped out.
Nevermind the fact that you will struggle to even substantiate Surfer being KOed because nothing of the sort was said.
You can go on and one about how Darkseid blasting Surfer from behind somehow shows his superiority over Surfer, when there is no evidence of Surfer getting knocked out, but i'll let anyone reading this figure it out themselves.
Darkseid one-shots Surfer after he had just shrugged off a blast from a hungry Galactus.
What basis do you have to suggest Surfer was KOed?
And Surfer was likewise blasted by Galactus.
John Byrne attributed the crossover to take place in a universe with both DC and Marvel co-exist.
Though I already posted Darkseid feats on the CAV, and that Surfer was only a match for Cyborg Superman in the canon crossover (whereas Darkseid stomped Hank), New-52 should also win.
You have used similar non-canon crossover. The crossover actually showed how Darkseid would be written when compared to characters like Surfer, in the JLA/Avengers crossover, a comparison to Thanos was made.
First the very fact that it is not canon, effectively makes it rather useless.
Even then Surfer just outright humilated Orion, and Darkseid attacks an unsuspecting Surfer from behind.
You have used similar crossovers, it was used to illustrate a point
And Darkseid was weakened after being blasted by Galactus
1. Which is also non-canon from marvel.
2. They never fought each other, they fought heroes around them
They made the comparison to Darkseid, a DC character
Irrelevant
The first feat i still disagree with because not a single source calls it omega force apart from you
All you did was see it and say it wasn't, Darkseid would not fire anything else other than it, if he could he would - not only is it obvious but I gave you a lot of evidence.
, the second at best is superficial damage and third you have no way of saying how much Darkseid help, specially given the one hitting Imperix together was a godly amped Superman (who himself has humilated Darkseid 3 times now)
Darkseid's help was needed, similar with Anti-Monitor a blood-lust Kal L could seemingly be given credit until Monitor's confirmation of Darkseid helping, he would not have helped otherwise against Imperix, he was clearly needed.
Superman outright reflects omega beam with his eye beam himself, whats stopping Surfer from doing that.
Not only is this a dose of bad writing but it's akin to me posting a feat of Surfer getting blasted or punched (by Thanos) and saying whats stopping Darkseid from doing that.
And other various instances of Superman, Doomsday, Mary Marvel, Jimmy Olsen, tanking it just fine.
Aside from amped Mary and PIS here and there, I could spam feats and feats of Omega Force knocking out higer tier character, it's actually a potent attack against Surfer, and will knock him out.
Heck i could go on and on about matter manipulation, astral plane, trapping him in his board etc etc
Matter manipulation.
Darkseid used against Hank, the same Hank who stalemated Surfer in a matchup in the canon crossover, which was a testament to Hanks' abilities.
Surfer vs Hank in the canon crossover.
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Darkseid avatar stomps Hank.
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Hurt Thanos at best superficially, and went on to get stomp.
Thanos barely showing a reaction and stomping a guy is same as Darkseid being outright defeated by Superman?
Come on..
Considering this is the same story he did much better against Tyrant (......), yes. I can pile up more examples, but I will not.
Again Thanos was weaker back than.
Again, I see you are adamant in not acknowledging this canon, but regardless, in some of these same stories, such as the one he fights Tyrant, he does worse against Jack of Hearts. Correct?
So if Thanos outright defeating Thing and Thor together is someone just the same as Darkseid being defeated by Superman and Orion in your opinion then we cant agree on a lot things.
I am not referring to energy blasts, but pure physicality. A flashback on the instance, did show the encounter in a different light, much opposed to Thanos' own words.
You do realise hyperboles is stuffs backed by no action right?
Superman fought H/P Doomsday after he was taken over temporarily by Braniac for 2 entire issues, and these were not normal size issues either.
o the 30 odds scans of him fighting Doomsday is all talk and doesnt count as action?
I think we subscribe to a very different meaning of hyperbole.
Yes, because Jurgens showed Doomsday >>>>>>>>>> Justice League
Based on feats and consistency, Superman is not equal to someone who stomped the Justice League
Tell me, are you honestly going to blindly believe Superman is equal to someone who beat the combined forces of Green Lantern, Wally West, Martian Manhunter, etc with his bare fists?
Because........that is hyperbole, either Doomsday stomping the League is PIS or Superman = H/P Doomsday is hyperbole, Superman cannot stomp the Justice League with his bare fists.
Come on.......
Are you going to accept Superman being capable of beating the League with his bare hands? Or in fact, stomping them? It's PIS for Superman to be at that level.
No he doesnt attribute him as destroying the universe but rather the planet (world)
The Earth 3 Universe was destroyed, the Dark Lightning tears did that, and in the end the Anti-Monitor reveal did show he had consumed the Universe.
I used the non canon showing alongside canon showing of Superman defeating Darkseid.
Even then thats a weaker, Surfer with morals on, attacked from behind, after he defeated Orion, then got attacked by Galactus , them had his memories wiped out.
Nevermind the fact that you will struggle to even substantiate Surfer being KOed because nothing of the sort was said.
I used this showing to show Darkseid would be written above Surfer like characters.
Darkseid had.....just tanked a blast from Darkseid and then attacked Surfer, to which he was not seen for many pages later. He was...beaten by a weakened Darkseid.
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Surfer isn't seen until the last page. Galactus' attempts were to kill Darkseid, but not to kill Surfer. Surfer was very much beaten after Darkseid's Omega Effect.
While he probably has the feats for it (and let's face it, feat wise, SS should be able to beat Thanos at least a few times) I can't see Silver Surfer overcoming Darkseid.
@rudebomberboy01: except that he is... Thanos wouldn't even exist without Darkseid. What makes you think Thanos is so much better? What feats without IG?
Who told you that? Darkseid was note the template for Thanos it was Metron Thanos had Iron man size when he started and he had a chair like metron when Jim Starline created (when he was a student) him it was other people who ask him to make him bigger hulkling and when he did that people started to compare him with Darkseid because the two were grim characters and hulkling like. The fact that the character got popular later on when he was working for DC on Superman he decided to create one counter part for Dc Mongul and his war world. So saying Thanos wouldn't even exist without Darkseid means that you don't really know this characters. It's people with their bad mouth who always think people can't create but always rip off other characters and this is how Shazam got own by Dc later because Dc was always saying Cap Marvel was a rip off of superman
@supreme_maj: That same Starlin said that he was influenced by Darkseid when creating Thanos. Obviously saying he wouldn't exist is an exaggeration, but Thanos was based off of Darkseid to some degree, and was made of similar power level.
@supreme_maj: That same Starlin said that he was influenced by Darkseid when creating Thanos. Obviously saying he wouldn't exist is an exaggeration, but Thanos was based off of Darkseid to some degree, and was made of similar power level.
ok this is better but now Dc is making Darkseid look more like Thanos if you watched Justice league war i was kind of surprised this darkseid was more like Thanos than anything the color of his armor his face he was different than the one in Superman/batman: Apocalypse or is it a marketing plan against Marvel?
That your assumption, debate are done based on feats not an assumption you made on what a supposedly cross over is supposed to show or if the said assumption remain valid.
Anyway, it shows how Darkseid would be written compared to a morals on Surfer , before he got a boost.
Not to mention apart from hitting Surfer from the back Darkseid did absolutely nothing against him.
And Darkseid was weakened after being blasted by Galactus
And Surfer had just fought Orion first, then attacked from behind by Deesad, then by Galactus.
They made the comparison to Darkseid, a DC character
Because they met each other face to face, thought about fighting and didnt fight they are somehow equal.
Nevermind the fact that it was a cross-over, never once acknowedged as canon for 616 Thanos?
Not only is this a dose of bad writing but it's akin to me posting a feat of Surfer getting blasted or punched (by Thanos) and saying whats stopping Darkseid from doing that.
Yeah now everything is bad writing this isnt even an argument, its just closing your eyes and hoping a canon feat somehow goes away.
And what stopping Darkseid from blasting and punched Surfer, same thing that preventing Surfer and blast and humilating Darkseid like Superman has done, twice.
Aside from amped Mary and PIS here and there, I could spam feats and feats of Omega Force knocking out higer tier character, it's actually a potent attack against Surfer, and will knock him out.
Omega being on its own knocking out higher tire guys than Surfer.. Show me then.
Matter manipulation.
Darkseid used against Hank, the same Hank who stalemated Surfer in a matchup in the canon crossover, which was a testament to Hanks' abilities.
ABC logic at best.
Problem is Darkseid matter manipulation on Surfer wont work, because Surfer has extreme control over his own body to a point he can morph his shape as need be.
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Heck he is capable of staying a disembodied consciousness
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So yeah there you have defense against matter manipulation from Surfer, what defense does Darkseid have?
Considering this is the same story he did much better against Tyrant (......), yes. I can pile up more examples, but I will not.
Sometimes is actually pretty funny to think how you interpret things.
So Thanos stomping Jack of Heart
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is somehow doing worse than what he did against Tyrant, who destroyed Thanos entire armor
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I am not referring to energy blasts, but pure physicality. A flashback on the instance, did show the encounter in a different light, much opposed to Thanos' own words.
What rubbish.
All the scan says is Thanos went Toe to Toe with Thing and Thor.
Not to mention i dont see why one would rely on a panel recap of an actual event and ignore what happened on actual even.
Thanos won them, back in the day when he was weaker..
Darkseid lost against Superman again and again.
See the difference, meh you probably wont.
Yes, because Jurgens showed Doomsday >>>>>>>>>> Justice League
Based on feats and consistency, Superman is not equal to someone who stomped the Justice League
Here cry me a river..
I mean come on, clear on panel potrayal, with 30 odds scans of him fighting, backed by writer's express words, and you are still complaining.
The Earth 3 Universe was destroyed, the Dark Lightning tears did that, and in the end the Anti-Monitor reveal did show he had consumed the Universe.
Only Earth 3 planet, and Kyrpton was destroyed when destroyed when Crime Syndicate ran. Superman and JLA are making assumption based on what happened to Crime Syndicate, i doubt they are even aware the whole universe was destroyed.
I used this showing to show Darkseid would be written above Surfer like characters.
So Darkseid attacks Surfer from behind, with no evidence to suggest Surfer was knocked out somehow suggest he is written above the likes of Surfer.
You are a very weird way of interpreting things.
Darkseid had.....just tanked a blast from Darkseid and then attacked Surfer
And that changes the fact that he attacked Surfer from behind and it was never said that Surfer was KOed?
Does that change the fact that Surfer himself tanked a blast from Galactus?
He was seen on the very page where Darkseid blast him, trying to get up and again in the last page just fine.
Not to mention there is merely 2 pages in between which focuses on Darkseid talking to Galactus.
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You have me at a loss to how this somehow suggest Surfer was knocked out or anything. Or the fact that Darkseid attacking Surfer from behind somehow suggest he is written more powerful....
I use non canon stuffs alongside canon material to add more emphasis, and i have never used crossover.
Then allow me to use non canon material for greater emphasis. Darkseid, whether you like it or not will often be compared to Thanos. By the admission of Marvel's heroes in the JLA/Avengers canon crossover, he looked more dangerous than Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. So when Darkseid and Surfer did meet in the non-fan voted/not-amalgam crossover, it was not surprising that Surfer was not as powerful as Darkseid.
That your assumption, debate are done based on feats not an assumption you made on what a supposedly cross over is supposed to show or if the said assumption remain valid.
It is an accurate assumption, actually. Mostly, Surfer was more than a match for Orion but not Darkseid himself. You like to bring up about the point of how characters are 'written' - this is my point.
Anyway, it shows how Darkseid would be written compared to a morals on Surfer , before he got a boost.
Morals did not dictate his loss.
Not to mention apart from hitting Surfer from the back Darkseid did absolutely nothing against him.
He beat Surfer, his own words were to emphasize that.
And Surfer had just fought Orion first, then attacked from behind by Deesad, then by Galactus.
He was beating Orion, unless you think Orion gave him a match? Which weakens the claim of him being able to beat Darkseid.
Yeah now everything is bad writing this isnt even an argument, its just closing your eyes and hoping a canon feat somehow goes away.
It is a dose of bad writing, heat vision deflecting Omega Beams is rather ridiculous. On the subject of canon, it's about as canon as the feats I can pull for Pre-Death Thanos, which you seem adamant to not acknowledge.
And what stopping Darkseid from blasting and punched Surfer, same thing that preventing Surfer and blast and humilating Darkseid like Superman has done, twice.
Superman is not Surfer, he hits harder and is stronger. This is akin to me saying Darkseid can physically make Thanos work because Thor and Thing were until he resorted to blasts. By the same token, Darkseid has swatted Superman like a fly on two occasions and knocked him out on another.
The question of why can Darkseid not beat down Surfer, is actually a relevant question.
Omega being on its own knocking out higher tire guys than Surfer.. Show me then.
My mistake. It does not knock people out, it kills them. As it did with the gods he killed from other planets, the scans I gave you in our CAV and then feats against Anti-Monitor, hurting Spectre, etc.
Because they met each other face to face, thought about fighting and didnt fight they are somehow equal.
Nevermind the fact that it was a cross-over, never once acknowedged as canon for 616 Thanos?
I have seen you make posts and accounts for this very story being canon, by your own admission. The concept of Darkseid being at that level is not really hard to grasp if we compare their better feats.
ABC logic at best.
Problem is Darkseid matter manipulation on Surfer wont work, because Surfer has extreme control over his own body to a point he can morph his shape as need be.
By the same token, Hank Henshaw not only modifies his own body to counter different threats, in his fight with Doomsday that ability was constant and when he met Surfer, he was hurting Surfer and matching him as a being.
It is not really ABC logic.
Sometimes is actually pretty funny to think how you interpret things.
Why?
Thanos attempted to use his care free personality against Jack of Hearts and he got hurt. He used that same personality against Tyrant and he was fine, literally.
What rubbish.
All the scan says is Thanos went Toe to Toe with Thing and Thor.
Not to mention i dont see why one would rely on a panel recap of an actual event and ignore what happened on actual even.
Thanos won them, back in the day when he was weaker..
Darkseid lost against Superman again and again.
See the difference, meh you probably wont.
It's rubbish because it recalled it in a different light? Thanos stomped when he used energy blasts, the combined might held him at bay in a purely physical contest, much like Thanos vs Surfer was a pure slug-fest, Thanos was annoyed and only then used blasts.
By the same token of Superman beating Darkseid, Darkseid has not only beaten Superman and overpowered him but Pre-Death Thanos must be acknowledged if you are so adamant to refer to me to 'canon'.
Here cry me a river..
I mean come on, clear on panel potrayal, with 30 odds scans of him fighting, backed by writer's express words, and you are still complaining.
I think Superman expert @lvenger may agree with me here.
Superman is not equal to H/P Doomsday. If H/P Doomsday can stomp the Justice League with his bare fists, Superman is somehow equal to this guy? Are you kidding me?
It's PIS. Fair, plain and simple.
Only Earth 3 planet, and Kyrpton was destroyed when destroyed when Crime Syndicate ran. Superman and JLA are making assumption based on what happened to Crime Syndicate, i doubt they are even aware the whole universe was destroyed.
Krypton is destroyed because of the general story of Kal, the entire Universe was decimated, that's why they left, they had no choice but to leave.
So Darkseid attacks Surfer from behind, with no evidence to suggest Surfer was knocked out somehow suggest he is written above the likes of Surfer.
You are a very weird way of interpreting things.
Nope. Darkseid had just tanked a blast from Galactus who wanted to kill him, Surfer on the other hand had battled and bested Orion, then Darkseid makes the statement that BFR does not count as a win and Surfer is beaten, he's only seen on the last page flying away, which strengthens the point of Galactus not wanting to kill him.
What evidence do you have of either assumption that Surfer was defeated or Galactus attempted to kill Darkseid?
Nothing of the sort was even mentioned.
Uh huh. There is a major difference between Galactus blasting Darkseid and blasting Surfer. He wanted to consume Apokolips energy and needed Darkseid dead because Darkseid attempted to thrawt his plans, Surfer is his herald, and he flew happily away with Galactus at the end.
@jayc1324: also please don't use abc logic. It doesn't make sense. When you said Darkseid wins just because he beat Cyborg Superman and surfer stalemated CS, first off it was a non canon crossover, second Superman kicks Darkseid's butt several times but gets stomped by CS, so what??
@maninthemountain: Deathstroke can beat Batman, therefor he can kick the crap outta Robin. Just because it's ABC logic, doesn't mean it automatically doesn't work.
@xiix: I never said it doesn't always work, I said it's not really reliable and shouldn't be used to back up your arguments. Also Silver Surfer > Superman and Beta Ray Bill but SS lost to Thor, but Thor < Superman and Thor = BRB
I think this is a good fight actually. Ill probably go darkseid, although my understanding is that their "current" versions as of today, SS would cream him.
I think this is a good fight actually. Ill probably go darkseid, although my understanding is that their "current" versions as of today, SS would cream him.
Darkseid stomped justice league 2 times,stomped earth 2 justice league, was defeating an amped anti monitor the same guy who stomped pre crisis superman etc.
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